Theory Videos and other interesting shit

[Makoeyes987]

We've seen translations of the Ultimania Plus here and from aitaikimochi and there's nothing in there that presents the roles of Sephiroth and Jenova are flipped. Can't speak to whatever unknown translations there are that have suddenly been revealed but literally every Ultimania officially published by S-E, as recently as the re-released FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania from last year outlines again Sephiroth being the one in control. The one who inherited it's instincts and carries on its legacy.

I can't imagine you're referring to the past flashback of Jenova calling to Sephiroth in Nibelheim as some sort of role reversal. Him being awakened and sensing Jenova doesn't radically change the scenario. Even in the OG, Sephiroth grabbed at his head in pain in the reactor, heard Jenova, and the door to it's chamber inexplicably opened when he called out to it. The entire crux of who's running what is clear with Sephiroth having Jenova's body take his form and him puppeting the copies to look and talk like him as well.

 

[Eerie]

Considering you used a mistranslation from the Ulti Plus (that Cloud recognises Aerith in ch2 when... no), I've my doubts.

 

[Schrodingersbabyseal]

Actually some did come from Audrey... we (Audrey and I) even talked about it on my show... Again I will wait until Sleepezi replies. Moreover, the video doesn't actually suggest that Jenova is "now in control" nor is that what I am personally suggesting, that is a bit of an oversimplification.

 

[a_apple 2.0]

Now you're back paddling

EDIT:
Since we are talking about different translations and shit, it would be nice if you guys post them since it gets confusing about what is even discussed here.
EDIT 2: dat typo

 

[Schrodingersbabyseal]

Now you're back paddling

I haven't paddled any backs yet... I am trying to stay positive here.
Nor have I backpedaled , just clarifying the point.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well, what I think is apparent (and heavily hinted at through narrative context from Crisis Core all the way to Advent Children) is that Sephiroth inherits Jenova's malevolent, violent and planet absorbing instincts thanks to awakening those powers within him upon learning the truth of his birth, and thematically seeing that alien as his "mother."

However, the identification with that half of himself doesn't necessarily subordinate Sephiroth to it's will or control. Sephiroth can carry on and inherit Jenova's "legacy" while simultaneously controlling it and using it as his tool or minion. Sephiroth is his "mother's child" and he does inherit it's drive to absorb spirit energy and hunt life. However, he carries those instincts to a new narcissistic and megalomaniacal level of making himself a god capable reshaping the planet (and maybe even the future) to his vision. He goes further than what Jenova did on it's own, and Jenova apparently is a-okay with that.

So that's a more nuanced and detailed description that shows while Sephiroth is clearly influenced by Jenova, he ultimately is still the one running the show. He's taking those instincts that came from the lifeform of Jenova, and reshaped them in a way that better suits his own malevolent desires.

 

[Roundhouse]

Apple, let's not jump all over the guy like he's on trial here XD We're all fans sitting around discussing a game we love.

 

[Schrodingersbabyseal]

Well, what I think is apparent (and heavily hinted at through narrative context from Crisis Core all the way to Advent Children) is that Sephiroth inherits Jenova's malevolent, violent and planet absorbing instincts thanks to awakening those powers within him upon learning the truth of his birth, and thematically seeing that alien as his "mother."

However, the identification with that half of himself doesn't necessarily subordinate Sephiroth to it's will or control. Sephiroth can carry on and inherit Jenova's "legacy" while simultaneously controlling it and using it as his tool or minion. Sephiroth is his "mother's child" and he does inherit it's drive to absorb spirit energy and hunt life. However, he carries those instincts to a new narcissistic and megalomaniacal level of making himself a god capable reshaping the planet (and maybe even the future) to his vision. He goes further than what Jenova did on it's own, and Jenova apparently is a-okay with that.

So that's a more nuanced and detailed description that shows while Sephiroth is clearly influenced by Jenova, he ultimately is still the one running the show. He's taking those instincts that came from the lifeform of Jenova, and reshaped them in a way that better suits his own malevolent desires.

I appreciate this description, and I feel some remorse for starting this conversation and delaying response... but I realized I needed to show respect to my friend and let him represent himself first.

There is nuance in their relationship that will heavily benefit from being fleshed out, and to be clear I am not suggesting that in any way, Sephiroth will not remain a villain... the Villain.

 

[a_apple 2.0]

Apple, let's not jump all over the guy like he's on trial here XD We're all fans sitting around discussing a game we love.

I totally agree, I guess it came across a bit cheeky lol

 

[Sleepezi]

lol, hey everyone!
I know that some of you already know (or maybe not lol) I am a lurker here and on the discord! It was a shock to see that this was posted! and I appreciate sharing it for discussion! But I did see some things in here that I wanted to clear up. So figured that I would just answer some of the things that I saw in the thread in a couple of posts if necessary.
Just before I start, I totally understand that some people are not into this stuff, for whatever reasons that you have. Also I am in no way going to sit here and not take criticisms that I find that are completely valid. But I think adding my viewpoint may make some of the decisions I have made clearer and maybe help with the discussion. I am newer to this than I think many people realize, I have only made 11 videos. While that seems like a lot, everyone is a learning experience for me, whether that's the editing, the voice over, or the writing, or the content itself; I am always open to discussing the ins and outs of the process to get better! Especially to peoples viewpoints from people on this forum and on the discord. A lot of people here have helped me make the videos better in the past, whether that is looking at my work and or helping me find what I need to strengthen a viewpoint.



Mako Eyes
“Most of these types of vids I just can't take seriously. They go way too far in the weeds to establish "content" and construct a convoluted theory for a concept that really isn't this opaque. Like, if your theory takes nearly 3 hours to outline and explain, there's a problem.”

The video is about the obvious mysteries that come up during the end of Remake, so I know that the video is long, but it's about constructing a theory for all of the different subjects to provide a concrete (in my opinion) theory on all of them. The reason that they are all together is because what I think explains them all is the concept of memories.
Those subjects were Zack, Sephiroth, the Whispers, and Aerith's mystery.
One of the other contributing factors to length is how many sources I see to back up these statements. To construct an argument that stands for all of them and flows into one another.
The other thing that this video tries to do is explain why this information is impactful from not just a lore perspective(which is informative, but may not give you a clear idea as to how that translates into good or effective storytelling.) but I also try to express how these elements matter to how we see the characters, and at the same time how they affect us. All of this sort of takes time to get into. So I just was spending time trying to build up both of those viewpoints at the same time.

There are other factors to not wanting to split the video up, mainly because people either drop out through a series of vids, (in my experience at least) or the other factor is that people don't watch my shorter videos. This video on paper just seems to be proving more of that point as far as this video is good.
Is it the best way to explain the information? Perhaps not for everyone. Which is why I usually post the script on the video so people can skim through it at their own pace if they wish.

A_apple

“ the video is way over bloated, that entire thing could have been cut down to 20 minutes. Which is a shame since I think the guy presents some good ideas in it but they get drowned by a tsunami of half baked theories and rambling.”

I can understand that there are parts that go on a bit longer than people think necessary, as well as things that break up the pacing poorly towards the end for people. I understand that. but I think if you took every quote I use to back up everything I say in this video, it could make up 20 mins alone, or a large amount of that time for sure. and it's the sightings from Ultimanias and interviews that I rely on very much to build these theories. Because I am trying to present this as a concrete theory that has been well thought out using actual evidence from these sources.
I know your just saying shorter would be better, not specifically 20. Lol
But I hope with this and the above mentioned reasons you can see why the video may seem overdone, but I assure you it was very intentionally done to present all of these ideas as effectively as I knew how.


Torrie

But I'm currently watching this one posted above because of the positive feedback it's received lately. I'm only one third into the video, so I don't quite get the whole theoretical aspect of it, but he did a fantastic job tying some thematic and design elements together, such as this tesselation pattern throughout the compilation or explaining the fact that limit breaks are powered by memories not only in CC but in the other entries too, even if was done rather subtly.

Glad you enjoyed that section! That was very fun to make. And research!



LicoriceAllsorts

I wish they'd just express their theories as AU fanfiction.

I think that would be an amazing video to make. XD

MobiusStripper
These people are gonna be so bummed when their intricate theories get jossed by a plotline that is far less thought-out.

Not at all. A lot of this is just coming from a place of love for the lore and the game, I have come up with things that haven't happened before and dont get disappointed. It is just a game in the end! But I still did my best to try and determine where things are heading!

Eerie

I am going to respond to this in a different post if that's ok, I just wanted to ask if we had already talked before in my YouTube section? Because a lot of the points made here are very similar to one I already replied to in length there, if not I will gladly reply!

A_apple

But it's Cloud who tells the team what happened in the Nibelheim reactor with Sephiroth so wouldn't it be actually him who gets those white flashes since we see things through his eyes and not Sephiroth? Also wasn't it long confirmed that it's Sephiroth who is controlling Jenova and not the other way around, so where is this idea coming from? I mean it's sounds really nice that Sephiroth is on a mission to free himself from Jenova's influence but wasn't that always the case anyway?

Edit:
About the Tifa thing, Sleepezi is basically a huge Aerith fanboy so my guess is that's why he isn't that interested in talking about Tifa and kinda overlooks her

I am going to go into the seph thing at length further down, since there is an ongoing discussion about this it seems like!

I think I want to stress, since it is a recurring issue in several discussions about this video, that I am not a fan of any character to a point that I am not being objective. Lol
I only talk about Aerith in the way that I do because she is a big part of the mystery of Remake, that mystery being involved with her future knowledge. Again, I wanted to create something that resonates from a lore perspective, but also presents how this information affects our understanding of the characters and why it's effective to something more relatable. The idea that I am simply talking about her and fixating on her character is definitely the point that people are using to try and make it seem as though I am biased. Which I want to be clear I am not. I will most likely explain that in a bit more detail if necessary.

Ph14

These people don't make "theory" videos, they make:

1) Videos of them "reacting" / "analyzing" stuff poorly

and/or

2) Videos where they talk about their FF7R headcanons they think could be canon / want to be canon and call it "theory"

I will say in this particular instance, I really do think that I did a pretty decent job presenting and analyzing this subject of the game, but I can only speak for myself on that one. Its not a head canon, Its just a theory on where I think the game is going, and I think it is rather convincing. Thats all.

Eerie
*Erm, but this is exactly what On The Way To A Smile tells us*

“It's not like Cloud and others wanted to die, it's more like they succumbed to depression and felt as if they might die anytime soon.”
The moment of weakness is more or less what I was highlighting as being the moment in which Geostigma is contracted. I think we can all agree as to how Geostigma spreads through Jenova's influence, but the video uses the example of Rufus accepting the circumstance of his situation, and then the black water appearing. The thematic relevance of that is important to understand where the characters are emotionally when they become susceptible to Geostigma.

When you get Geostigma, you can lose the will to live if the symptoms worsen. That's not "it spreads to people who lose the will to live" at all. You don't catch it if you have depression, you get depressed from it, basically. I doubt that Rufus was suicidal before he caught it. Cloud certainly wasn't, he was indeed ready to fight for Denzel in CoT."

I do think I disagree with this, yes geostigma does take a toll on those who have it, because it's a death sentence essentially. But the part in Rufus’ story in On the way to a smile makes it clear that it is also relevant to how certain people become infected with it. You could say the same thing for Denzel in ACC, when and where he gets infected and what is emotionally happening at the time is extremely significant to understand its function in the story. I will go into that a bit more if needed.

a_apple 2.0 said:
But it's Cloud who tells the team what happened in the Nibelheim reactor with Sephiroth so wouldn't it be actually him who gets those white flashes since we see things through his eyes and not Sephiroth? Also wasn't it long confirmed that it's Sephiroth who is controlling Jenova and not the other way around, so where is this idea coming from?

Your viewpoint here is mainly from OG, where I use Crisis Core's depiction of the incident to make the point of Jenovas influence on sephiroth through the white flashes. Something that the Crisis Core Complete guide elaborates on from an Og event where something similar is occuring.
I know this is a much larger conversation happening already, but the tldr: this theory mainly stems from the Ore and Watashi differences at the end of Remake when it comes to Sephiroth, and what would have incited that change from a lore perspective, and then what was the motivation to achieve that change. Which I make the point is that what Sephiroth ultimately wanted was to achieve this Ore change by gathering memories that were apart of himself. And that the reason he did is because there is this link between Jenova and Sephiroth that he wanted to break away from, hence the reason for this change in remake.

Makoeyes

You catch Geostigma being exposed to the "black water" (which is in essence Jenova cells within stagnant Lifestream), being exposed to Lifestream during Meteorfall, being a SOLDIER or just somehow getting Jenova cells infused into your body.

The spread and progression of the disease accelerates the more you despair and get depressed. But even then, if you have it, you will ultimately die from it one way or another.

So yeah, Geostigma worsens with depression and despair. But you gotta actually catch Jenova cells to get it.

I think we are on the same page, in the video I use Rufus' scene in On the way to a smile to show what emotional state the characters are in when this happens. That being done to illustrate its thematic relevance to the character and the story.

It is 100% confirmed Sephiroth controls Jenova. It's stated in disc 2 in the Northern Crater and every Ultimania on the subject lists Sephiroth's will as being the one controlling Jenova.

So the quote used is specifically the idea of jenova's call in the nibelheim incident in the script for Ultimania Plus. Which was meant to highlight that yes, Jenova wasn't just mindlessly sitting in a tube at this moment, but rather was a key factor in what incited the nibelheim incident. This all leads to the example of Ore and Watashi. I will most likely have to post more evidence to support this.

I know that there is more that I have already missed. And more to elaborate, but this is more to just get the ball rolling here. Just so people know roughly where I stand on everything said so far.

Other than that I am happy to discuss it further! I would also really appreciate it if anyone does want to discuss this, to tell me who has actually watched the video? Just so I have the context of the conversation. I would really appreciate it!
Again, just want to point out none of this is trying to come from any place of negativity, all good either way. Sorry if I missed anything, just get at me about it and I will do my best to get back with a response!

 

[Makoeyes987]

There are other factors to not wanting to split the video up, mainly because people either drop out through a series of vids, (in my experience at least) or the other factor is that people don't watch my shorter videos. This video on paper just seems to be proving more of that point as far as this video is good.
Is it the best way to explain the information? Perhaps not for everyone. Which is why I usually post the script on the video so people can skim through it at their own pace if they wish.

That's fair. I mean, I'm only speaking for myself, and you clearly have an audience so you're obviously doing something right!

I much prefer short form videos for such topics but that's just me.

So the quote used is specifically the idea of jenova's call in the nibelheim incident in the script for Ultimania Plus. Which was meant to highlight that yes, Jenova wasn't just mindlessly sitting in a tube at this moment, but rather was a key factor in what incited the nibelheim incident. This all leads to the example of Ore and Watashi. I will most likely have to post more evidence to support this.

Jenova's not necessarily "mindless", you're correct. It was rendered "dormant" by the Cetra and remained inert for a time, but it clearly has some sort of neurological activity, thoughts, etc. And yes, it calls out to Sephiroth. It's a "key factor" in the sense that it reached out to Sephiroth to pull him away from his humanity and awaken him to his destructive Jenova instincts.

What's apparent through Crisis Core (which you are referencing from) is that when Angeal, Genesis and Sephiroth become aware of their origins, they "flip out." They lash out destructively, mentally deteriorate, and become violent. Genesis murders his family and the villagers of Banora. Sephiroth loses his mind, burns down Nibelheim, kills the residents and tries to kill Zack. Angeal, holds up better but he violently lashes out at Zack, states his mind is mired in fog, and suffers severe depression and mental confusion. I would argue (given what's stated about Jenova's instincts, the deleterious effects of cellular degradation, and what happens to those who become makonoids) this is a symptom of the Jenova instincts within them rising up in their minds and making them unstable and hostile. Sephiroth's instability is what allows Jenova to reach out to him and awaken him. And he embraces this awakening full stop.

However, this doesn't subordinate him to it as I said before. That's just a change.

Also, the change between Sephiroth's pronouns reflects his mental state. When he was alive, he used "ore." When he died and became part of the Lifestream, his entire ego changed. He absorbed an immense amount of knowledge, experience, and as a result, it changed his perspective. The Reunion Files for AC state that for Sephiroth, he ascended with his death. He operates at a higher level like a god. Him changing his pronoun is a result of this change.

However, Sephiroth's pronoun change in the Edge of Creation in FFVII-R could easily be a result of Sephiroth trying to appeal to Cloud's (false) memory of him as a hero from his past. He's trying to get him to join his side. So what better way to attempt deception and persuasion than appeal to Cloud's positive memories of him. How the Ultimania Plus describes the scene is key, it's an entreaty for help from Sephiroth. It could be as simple as that.

Anyways, I'm glad you're having fun theorycrafting like this. Given the amount of time we have between releases, you'll have plenty of time for it

 

[Eerie]

I am going to respond to this in a different post if that's ok, I just wanted to ask if we had already talked before in my YouTube section? Because a lot of the points made here are very similar to one I already replied to in length there, if not I will gladly reply!

I don't see how, as I don't even have a YT account (weird I know ). Good sport of you to answer here though.

As for Rufus' story, I haven't read it yet. So I can't really comment on that. But in CoT we do see Cloud ready to fight for Denzel before he catches Geostigma. So he hadn't given up on life, that's just untrue and a bad characterisation of Cloud. It's when he catches it that he feels even *more* like a failure and prefers to run away from Tifa and his family, because he doesn't want them to see him die, because he feels that he's failed them. Yet he can't throw away his cellphone because it's their last link. This is what I disagreed with, that you don't catch Geostigma because you're depressed and have given up on life, but that it makes you depressed and giving up on life.

Also I noticed that you missed an information about water (just remembering it now) that is written in The Kids are Alright: the water in the church that heals everyone from Geostigma in ACC is indeed the Lifestream. It's a really good novella, I recommend it.

 

[a_apple 2.0]

Your viewpoint here is mainly from OG, where I use Crisis Core's depiction of the incident to make the point of Jenovas influence on sephiroth through the white flashes. Something that the Crisis Core Complete guide elaborates on from an Og event where something similar is occuring.
I know this is a much larger conversation happening already, but the tldr: this theory mainly stems from the Ore and Watashi differences at the end of Remake when it comes to Sephiroth, and what would have incited that change from a lore perspective, and then what was the motivation to achieve that change. Which I make the point is that what Sephiroth ultimately wanted was to achieve this Ore change by gathering memories that were apart of himself. And that the reason he did is because there is this link between Jenova and Sephiroth that he wanted to break away from, hence the reason for this change in remake.

See I think you are taking a big leap here, lets break down what you are saying:

1. The white flashes represent Jenovas influence on Sephiroth which is something he later (remake timeline) tries to break free from
Your evidence for Jenova influencing Sephiroth to such an extend that he later tries to break free from her are those white flashes, but couldn't they easily be just visual cues for the audience to highlight that Sephiroths true self is awaking or maybe that he is finally able to hear Jenova's voice or maybe it's just showing us that Sephiroth's mind is starting to deteriorate. I guess my question is what makes you go from white flashes to "Jenova is actively fucking with him"

2. tldr: Sephiroth wanted his old memories back before he went insane
It's a long time ago since I read lifestream Black but didn't Sephiroth kinda throw all his unnecessary memories and feelings away after he got offed so why would he wan them back now? I mean even if not where does the connection to Jenova come in play here?

Also your friend mentioned that this theory is based on new information from the Ultimania, it would be awesome if you could share that stuff :0

 

[Eerie]

It's a long time ago since I read lifestream Black but didn't Sephiroth kinda throw all his unnecessary memories and feelings away after he got offed

Oh that I can answer, he totally thought they were useless and released them into the Lifestream lol.

 

[Sleepezi]

See I think you are taking a big leap here, let's break down what you are saying:

1. The white flashes represent Jenova's influence on Sephiroth which is something he later (remake timeline) tries to break free from

Your evidence for Jenova influencing Sephiroth (as in manipulating him or actively influencing him) are those white flashes, but couldn't they easily be just visual clues for the audience to highlight that Sephiroth's true self is awaking or maybe that he is finally able to hear Jenova's voice or maybe it's just showing us that Sephiroth's mind is starting to deteriorate. I guess my question is what makes you go from white flashes to "Jenova is actively fucking with him"

It's not just that, its that paired with the Remakes depiction of the Nibelheim incident from the Ultimania Plus script.

“He hallucinates hearing a distorted and muffled voice.

Sephiroth: mother I have come for you, Mother, together we will reclaim our world. Mother, they have come again…

Jenova is calling Sephiroth and Sephiroth is answering her.”

This is that specific quote you are asking me for. There are several other parts of the argument other than just this jenova bit, but its the one being referenced in posts (I believe?)

So it's this quote, paired with the flashes in the Crisis core depiction of the Nibelheim incident, paired with the description of those flashes in OG for Cloud’s headaches (which that quote is specifically paired with the Tifa finding Cloud at the Trains station scene, where white flashes are used as indicators of Jenova cells influencing Cloud), point to her influence over him at that particular moment in CC. Which I think is rather huge since I think most people attribute these actions to just him going mad. Rather the suggestion of the video is that Jenova is inciting the events, rather than being a passive observer of it.
This is also being coupled with the actions that Sephiroth takes, like taking the head of jenova, which is an oddly specific thing to take because it is the part of her that is the point of reunion are all things that I use to just stress that perspective.

This is also paired with the concept of ‘Destinies Core’ introduced in the CC trailer being used to bolster the importance of this event in the larger scheme of things, as I think we all are aware of this scenes impact on the rest of the story.

2. tldr: Sephiroth wanted his old memories back before he went insane

It's a long time ago since I read lifestream Black but didn't Sephiroth kinda throw all his unnecessary memories and feelings away after he got offed so why would he want them back now? I mean even if not where does the connection to Jenova come in play here?

Also your friend mentioned that this theory is based on new information from the Ultimania, it would be awesome if you could share that stuff :0

Right, So this is sort of the bigger part of the theory I make about Sephiroth. I dont want to butcher it, but I will try my best to sort of condense the point.

So I use this quote in the video from On the way to a smile:

Sephiroth discards those memories, yes, but later on in Black chapter III Sephiroth tries to form his spirit on the surface on his own (which we know he ultimately doesnt do this in this way, because uses the remnants and jenovas 'head' to return.) but he finds out that without his memories, he cannot manifest himself on his own.

“He tried to send his spirit above to walk the surface, but nothing came of it. The planet had Consumed the memories of his own form, leaving him with no image on which to anchor his consciousness.”

Meaning that if Sephiroth theoretically were to have those memories at this point in the book, Sephiroth could return in a way that would bypass the remnants and the use of Jenova. Hence the reason for Watashi changing back to Ore Sephiroth at the end of the Remake. Because what Remake Sephiroth is doing is simply rebuilding himself with the memories. hence the title of the video being New Reunion. I go into each beat and every scene that highlights this through quotes in Sephiroths depiction in Remake, as well as quotes from the ultimania, but this is the jist of the point made in the video.
I hope that clears up the point I was trying to make. Again, just to help me out in answering this I would love to know if you watched the video! I am pretty sure you have though. Just want to be sure. It helps me greatly to get the most out of this discussion!

 

[Sleepezi]

Not exactly sure if this is ok, but double post?
This is in response to Mako eyes again ^ .^

That's fair. I mean, I'm only speaking for myself, and you clearly have an audience so you're obviously doing something right!



I much prefer short form videos for such topics but that's just me.

I dont know, some people do nothing right and still get somewhere lol.

So I think thats a dangerous line to dance if I am not paying attention. Its one of the reasons I try and talk to as many people as possible about what their viewpoint is, Just trying not to be too full of it.

Jenova's not necessarily "mindless", you're correct. It was rendered "dormant" by the Cetra and remained inert for a time, but it clearly has some sort of neurological activity, thoughts, etc. And yes, it calls out to Sephiroth. It's a "key factor" in the sense that it reached out to Sephiroth to pull him away from his humanity and awaken him to his destructive Jenova instincts.

The mindless thing was more so to emphasize the passive observer.for the most part I agree with what you're saying. The only thing that I am unsure of is the inheriting Jenova instincts part. Not sure if I agree, or where that comes from exactly.

Because that's a large part of the video's point, is the desires of Jenovas Will and sephiroth and how they are different.

Sephiroth seems to be actively trying to become a god in a sense, control everything or make everything in the image of himself.

But Jenovas will inherently is to destroy planets. Which is in the quote for her bio.

So I don't necessarily think Sephiroth is inheriting as much of that destructive aspect.

It is one of the reasons in the video I draw a lot of attention to the Destinies Crossroads script stating that Sephiroth wants, like Aerith, to save the planet. They are just going about it in two different ways.

Why is that an important distinction to me? I think if we were to follow the path of what those separate wills would bring about. You see drastically different outcomes for the fate of the planet.

Remake sephiroth wanting to save the planet.

The whisper harbinger leading to the destruction of said planet.

I do go into way more detail on this distinction in the video, but I think you get the idea.

What's apparent through Crisis Core (which you are referencing from) is that when Angeal, Genesis and Sephiroth become aware of their origins, they "flip out." They lash out destructively, mentally deteriorate, and become violent. Genesis murders his family and the villagers of Banora. Sephiroth loses his mind, burns down Nibelheim, kills the residents and tries to kill Zack. Angeal, holds up better but he violently lashes out at Zack, states his mind is mired in fog, and suffers severe depression and mental confusion. I would argue (given what's stated about Jenova's instincts, the deleterious effects of cellular degradation, and what happens to those who become makonoids) this is a symptom of the Jenova instincts within them rising up in their minds and making them unstable and hostile. Sephiroth's instability is what allows Jenova to reach out to him and awaken him. And he embraces this awakening full stop.



However, this doesn't subordinate him to it as I said before. That's just a change.

That is a whole discussion in itself, one that I am trying to put more effort into collecting my thoughts on. But I do think that the points you are making are relevant to the depiction of how each of these characters handle what they understand to be their ‘role’ so to speak.

Also, the change between Sephiroth's pronouns reflects his mental state. When he was alive, he used "ore." When he died and became part of the Lifestream, his entire ego changed. He absorbed an immense amount of knowledge, experience, and as a result, it changed his perspective. The Reunion Files for AC state that for Sephiroth, he ascended with his death. He operates at a higher level like a god. Him changing his pronoun is a result of this change.

In both the recent Ultimania, and the 10th Anniversary I believe? Mentions this as pre and post insanity being the indication of change, but its not just his mind in the lifestream that changes, but his physical body being built back in the way that it does. I think that there is enough of a difference between OG Sephiroth and AC sephiroth that might warrant more discussion than a lateral move from the nibelheim incident to AC Sephiroth. There are a lot of factors in what makes/drives Sephiroth in OG and who he is, and subsequently AC and Remake Sephiroth. Different factors and ways of describing the events of their formation is important.

However, Sephiroth's pronoun change in the Edge of Creation in FFVII-R could easily be a result of Sephiroth trying to appeal to Cloud's (false) memory of him as a hero from his past. He's trying to get him to join his side. So what better way to attempt deception and persuasion than appeal to Cloud's positive memories of him. How the Ultimania Plus describes the scene is key, it's an entreaty for help from Sephiroth. It could be as simple as that.

Anyways, I'm glad you're having fun theorycrafting like this. Given the amount of time we have between releases, you'll have plenty of time for it

Lol yeah a lot of time. And given how many topics are worth talking about in the lore of FF7s universe as a whole, it was really awesome to dig in and learn so much about all of it!

 

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“He hallucinates hearing a distorted and muffled voice.

Sephiroth: mother I have come for you, Mother, together we will reclaim our world. Mother, they have come again…

Jenova is calling Sephiroth and Sephiroth is answering her.”

Okay your theory is that Sephiroth is being influenced by Jenova to such an extend that he felt the need to become whole again so he isn't influence by his mommy anymore and can finally make his own decision hence why he makes the party fight the Whispers.

My counter argument is that you have to keep in mind that we were EXPLICITLY told by the devs that Sephiroth was always the one in charge. That Jenova submitted to his will. So in that sense he was always master of his destiny, yes he is that special, even Jenova a parasite from space who nuked out basically the entire Cetra population bows down to him. He doesn't have to scheme and try to trick Jenova into giving him autonomy. This is a question of will and Sephiroths won that battle, that's what makes him different from everyone else.

So since we are talking about such a established plot point of Sephiroths character and FF7 as a whole your reason for why this isn't the case anymore has to be solid.
But to be honest I don't think you have a argument here.
You posted a part of the script (and left out Clouds name which was super confusing since at first I thought "he" is referring to Sephiroth) which basically shows us nothing new, we always knew that Sephiroth and Jenova could communicate with each other. I mean we saw him asks her to open a door for him which she promptly did, the new script is just the written down version of that scene, so there is basically no new information to gather from it.

Then you talk about the white flashes Sephiroth sees in CC and how these are comparable to Clouds white flashes when he gets possessed by Jenova.
Firstly I would argue that the white flash Cloud hears and sees is the feeling of Jenova calling out to him ( which got basically confirmed by the script) so it makes sense that the effect for both Sephiroth and Cloud is the same. Secondly this circumstance highlights much more the difference between Sephiroth and Cloud and goes contra with what you are trying to say. Because where Cloud becomes a zombie as soon as he hears Jenovas call with no own thought or will, Sephiroth unironically perseveres. He is still able to keep his individuality. But why is that? Well it goes back to what the devs have told us years ago, Sephiroth isn't controlled by Jenova it's the other way around. That's why Cloud and the other clones turn into meat puppets as soon as they get in contact with her while Sephiroth doesn't.

“He tried to send his spirit above to walk the surface, but nothing came of it. The planet had Consumed the memories of his own form, leaving him with no image on which to anchor his consciousness.”

Meaning that if Sephiroth theoretically were to have those memories at this point in the book, Sephiroth could return in a way that would bypass the remnants and the use of Jenova. Hence the reason for Watashi changing back to Ore Sephiroth at the end of the Remake. Because what Remake Sephiroth is doing is simply rebuilding himself with the memories. hence the title of the video being New Reunion. I go into each beat and every scene that highlights this through quotes in Sephiroths depiction in Remake, as well as quotes from the ultimania, but this is the jist of the point made in the video.
I hope that clears up the point I was trying to make. Again, just to help me out in answering this I would love to know if you watched the video! I am pretty sure you have though. Just want to be sure. It helps me greatly to get the most out of this discussion!

But again how do you go from "Sephiroth could come back to earth by gathering his memories" to " this proves that Sephiroth wants to be free from Jenovas influence" it's such a leap.

 

[Sleepezi]

Okay your theory is that Sephiroth is being influenced by Jenova to such an extend that he felt the need to become whole again so he isn't influence by his mommy anymore and can finally make his own decision hence why he makes the party fight the Whispers.

Yeah condensing this didnt help anyone did it? lol
its not just a physical hold, its also about Jenovas control over destiny as well through the whisper harbinger. which is also a significant aspect of the video.

My counter argument is that you have to keep in mind that we were EXPLICITLY told by the devs that Sephiroth was always the one in charge. That Jenova submitted to his will. So in that sense he was always master of his destiny, yes he is that special, even Jenova a parasite from space who nuked out basically the entire Cetra population bows down to him. He doesn't have to scheme and try to trick Jenova into giving him autonomy. This is a question of will and Sephiroths won that battle, that's what makes him different from everyone else.

I have used all of those quotes in past videos to bolster this same counter argument in the past. So I am very clear on what was said about Sephiroth when in older ultimanias lol believe me. But the context of that I think changes drastically when looking at how things are presented through Remake in combination with the Nibelhiem event and Jenovas influence.

I also disagree that Sephiroth is the master of his destiny. And to be honest, I don't really think that I have heard anyone say that he was in control of his destiny since Remake came out so I am very unfamiliar with that viewpoint. Only because I didn't really know it existed. Because it seems like he is doing everything in his power to circumvent destiny throughout Remake. So just to understand where your coming from when you say that: what do you think Sephiroth is trying to achieve in remake? Other than circumvent his destiny which you seem to not agree with concept wise. If that isn't your point, and your only talking about as you worded it from the perspective that Sephiroth "was" always in his control, but isn't now, why did that need to be changed?

Because that's the only part of this that this video is setting out to explain with Sephiroth, to define exactly what the intent of his character would be and the contradictions between Sephiroths intent and jenovas. Which is why I go through the trouble of describing in pain staking detail the way that Remakes Ultimanias depict Sephiroths drive now, what he is trying to get through that game, and at the same time break down how the whisper harbinger/jenovas will is depicted. The idea of the harbinger being linked to all time and space, how memories circumvent that, which is why Aerith and Sephiroth are doing what they are doing and how, what is said about the fate of the world and how memories may circumvent that?

The harbinger having way more physical indicators that its being controlled without the involvement of Sephiroths will and more so Jenovas.
Something that I may have done a better job clarifying in The Mako eyes post above. So if you didnt read that I will point you up there.
but things like The concept of the Jenova Thought Bodies and their description and how that can be applied to the 3 whispers that appear to defend what gave shape to them. Again all of these things in Remake, constructs of destiny are pointing to her being in control, rather than sephiroth. creating a line between Sephiroths will, and Jenovas will in the game.

So since we are talking about such a established plot point of Sephiroths character and FF7 as a whole your reason for why this isn't the case anymore has to be solid.
But to be honest I don't think you have a argument here.

I think I spent about 1 hour on this already through the topic of Jenova and Sephiroth in the video. I think I did a pretty good job establishing the differences in their will with enough quotes to sort of bolster that argument enough. Jenovas will, and the way that the video describes her goal to literally control destiny.

You posted a part of the script (and left out Clouds name which was super confusing since at first I thought "he" is referring to Sephiroth) which basically shows us nothing new, we always knew that Sephiroth and Jenova could communicate with each other. I mean we saw him asks her to open a door for him which she promptly did, the new script is just the written down version of that scene, so there is basically no new information to gather from it.

oh, sorry about the quote.
And Right, I dont think we ever have had anything on paper definitively stating her influence in that event. which is really important, because if I did overlook more of her influence in that scene, then that is something I would like to know. Where does it clarify that it was jenova opened the door for Sephiroth? just curious because I genuinely never have seen that information.

Then you talk about the white flashes Sephiroth sees in CC and how these are comparable to Clouds white flashes when he gets possessed by Jenova.

Firstly I would argue that the white flash Cloud hears and sees is the feeling of Jenova calling out to him ( which got basically confirmed by the script) so it makes sense that the effect for both Sephiroth and Cloud is the same. Secondly this circumstance highlights much more the difference between Sephiroth and Cloud and goes contra with what you are trying to say. Because where Cloud becomes a zombie as soon as he hears Jenovas call with no own thought or will...

the first thing your saying is that you agree with me that that is what the evidence supports...so rather than arguing you mean your agreeing with me right? her involvement with the nibelhiem incident? or is there something different your saying there that I didn't already.

Secondly this circumstance highlights much more the difference between Sephiroth and Cloud and goes contra with what you are trying to say. Because where Cloud becomes a zombie as soon as he hears Jenovas call with no own thought or will...

I think that it highlights their similarity that both are effected by the same thing in a very similar way quite honestly. They literally use the same shot of Cloud in Remake touching the elevator door as to how Sephiroth did in the last order. the timing of it, all of it is a one for one. A side by side that I also show a bit in the video.
Not really sure what moment your referencing to illustrating this, because what your disclosing as a zombie depends on what were talking about.
but in most instances its simply just a loss of self, or loss of control or someone controlling the actions of someone else. I would say that influence fits Sephiroth in that scene perfectly. what scene were referring to when talking about the state of blankness. Because depending on that scene it could be a mako poisoning issue, or are you talking about examples like the train station scene?

The other thing I would bring up, is that I am not saying that Sephiroth loses his will, that is retained in the same way that Clouds will exists in him even after all of the experiments in nibelhiem. Its just about who is steering the ship at which time, and in what way.

Sephiroth unironically perseveres. He is still able to keep his individuality. But why is that? Well it goes back to what the devs have told us years ago, Sephiroth isn't controlled by Jenova it's the other way around. That's why Cloud and the other clones turn into meat puppets as soon as they get in contact with her while Sephiroth doesn't. But again how do you go from "Sephiroth could come back to earth by gathering his memories" to " this proves that Sephiroth wants to be free from Jenovas influence" it's such a leap.

I don't think that you can say that definitively when taking into account Remakes depiction of Sephiroths actions in Remake, the concept of Destiny in remake as it applies to the concept of Jenovas will, and then the nibelhiem incident.
When condensing a ton of research that I put into a 3 hour video into a post to just clear up my intent and apart of the research being left to bolster an entire argument, yeah it may seem like a jump. lol. I don't disagree with you on that. And it is 99% of the reason that I made the video rather than writing it down piece by piece in a discussion like this XD

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'm not quite sure why you're coming at this with Jenova having a hold of Sephiroth's "destiny." Are you saying that because he loses? Because he's met defeat at the hands of the heroes of the story, like Jenova lost to the Cetra? Where does Jenova have any claim on "destiny?" It is ultimately a planet destroying an alien.

I also don't think we've seen nearly enough of the Remake's depiction of the Nibelheim incident to make any concrete theories or assumptions about it or anything coming from it. Like, we only saw a white background'd hazy recollection of Sephiroth speaking to a (headless) Jenova and uttering the well known dialogue we know from the OG/CC. That doesn't tell us much. The Ultimania Plus translation that clarifies Sephiroth hearing Jenova's "call" isn't that new. It merely clarifies what the OG and CC subtlely depicted with it's storytelling. Yes, Jenova "called" to Sephiroth. It opened the door to it's chamber for him. It wanted him to embrace that side of him. So, I'm not seeing much of a radical departure or revelation here.

And why do you connect Whisper Harbinger to Jenova? Is it because it called Rubrum, Corceo and Viridi to help it fight in the Singularity? Let's not forget that those remnants of Sephiroth were actual beings of Lifestream corrupted by Sephiroth's will from the Negative Lifestream who were then purified upon defeat and rejoined the planet. It's quite likely that they are freed from their connection to Sephiroth as "remnants" and are now their own entities called from the "future" to help protect the planet's destiny.

Also,

The mindless thing was more so to emphasize the passive observer.for the most part I agree with what you're saying. The only thing that I am unsure of is the inheriting Jenova instincts part. Not sure if I agree, or where that comes from exactly.

Because that's a large part of the video's point, is the desires of Jenovas Will and sephiroth and how they are different.

Sephiroth seems to be actively trying to become a god in a sense, control everything or make everything in the image of himself.

But Jenovas will inherently is to destroy planets. Which is in the quote for her bio.

So I don't necessarily think Sephiroth is inheriting as much of that destructive aspect.

No, Sephiroth is destroying. However, he's destroying for a purpose. Let's not forget, he's crashing a huge, magical meteorite into the planet. He's going to kill a lot of people. Hell, everyone on the planet actually.

So while Sephiroth isn't just mimicing and hunting humans for sport and turning them into monsters, he is killing a lot of people, on his way to.. Killing a lot of people. And he's killing the whole planet. However, out of the mountain of corpses he creates, he's intends to make a shining future for himself. Before creation comes destruction.

Jenova and Sephiroth both enjoy "killing a lot of people," Sephiroth however just realized, "why stop there?"

Why is that an important distinction to me? I think if we were to follow the path of what those separate wills would bring about. You see drastically different outcomes for the fate of the planet.

Remake sephiroth wanting to save the planet.

The whisper harbinger leading to the destruction of said planet.

I think there's a lot of hidden and yet to be revealed context behind Sephiroth's intention behind wanting to "save the planet."

Garland in FFIX wanted to "save his planet." However, Terra was a dead planet. It reached the end of it's planetary lifespan centuries ago, yet it continued to exist by feeding off the life of other planets to perpetuate it's own. This was a total rejection of the cycle of souls, an aberration of nature's cyclical nature of life and death.

Sephiroth wanted to "save himself." He essentially "willed" himself back to life thanks to the power of Jenova's Reunion and the power of the Lifestream. He subverted the natural cycle of life and came back to life. Twice.

Point I'm making is things that live, are meant to die. That includes planets. If a planet is unnaturally kept alive through forceful means, there's probably a horrible consequence of such subversion of the cycle of souls. Even if we're to take Sephiroth's desire to "save the planet" at face value, chances are, the planet is meant to die. It reached it's end. It's supposed to recycle it's spirit energy via Omega, join whatever cycle that exists within the cosmos, and restart anew in a new host planet. Sephiroth trying to prevent that because he doesn't want the planet to ever end, is not right. I don't think his intention is noble or pure at all here. Planets don't live forever.

Also, why is Whisper Harbinger "leading to the destruction of said planet?"

In both the recent Ultimania, and the 10th Anniversary I believe? Mentions this as pre and post insanity being the indication of change, but its not just his mind in the lifestream that changes, but his physical body being built back in the way that it does. I think that there is enough of a difference between OG Sephiroth and AC sephiroth that might warrant more discussion than a lateral move from the nibelheim incident to AC Sephiroth. There are a lot of factors in what makes/drives Sephiroth in OG and who he is, and subsequently AC and Remake Sephiroth. Different factors and ways of describing the events of their formation is important.

Okay, see that's technically true. Yes, those citations you're mentioning are correct. But let's be clear here. First, off I'll focus on pre-FFVII and FFVII and exclude AC, that's fine.

When Sephiroth went insane in Nibelheim, before he died, he was still using "ore." If you look at the Japanese script and Crisis Core, Sephiroth didn't start using "watashi" upon his "insanity." He still retained the use of "ore" when he lost his mind, burned down the village, killed the villagers, attacked Zack, etc. It was only until after he was killed and joined the Lifestream that his pronoun changed to "watashi." Cutscene for your convenience.

So yeah, it's not just post-insanity. It's post-life. The FFVII Ultimania Omega on page 53, also clarifies this fact. @TurquoiseHammer can further clarify and confirm, but on that page of Sephiroth's profile, they state:

Spoiler: FFVII Ultimania Omega picture

So I think it's clear that his dunk and absorption of Lifestream is more responsible for Sephiroth's pronoun change, not just simply his insanity. Which then further adds to the deceptive and persuasive context of Sephiroth's conversation with Cloud in the Edge of Creation and him using "ore" in that moment. He's "humbling" himself in an attempt to persuade Cloud and appear like the old hero he once knew. He's not different, he's just referring to himself differently. That's what I think, at least.

 

[a_apple 2.0]

And why do you connect Whisper Harbinger to Jenova? Is it because it called Rubrum, Corceo and Viridi to help it fight in the Singularity? Let's not forget that those remnants of Sephiroth were actual beings of Lifestream corrupted by Sephiroth's will from the Negative Lifestream who were then purified upon defeat and rejoined the planet. It's quite likely that they are freed from their connection to Sephiroth as "remnants" and are now their own entities called from the "future" to help protect the planet's destiny.

I never thought about this but you're right thinking back, the moment when Kadaj joins the Lifestream in AC his spirit energy is shown as "clean" there was no trace of geostigma surrounding him anymore indicating that he was purified from Jenova/Sephiroth

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I'm just going to throw in my two cents that nobody asked for.
Sephiroth is a (mostly) human being, and as such he has consciousness, a mind, self-awareness, a will etc...
Jenova, though it has the appearance of a human woman, is a mimic and a virus from space. Can a virus be said to have a will? The question of who is in charge is making the huge (and unfounded) assumption that we are dealing with two equally human beings with equally human wills. But the Covid virus, for example, doesn't "will" the deaths of its hosts. It is simply acting according to instinct. It doesn't direct events, it merely responds to them as nature programmed it to do.
Sephiroth, as the sole entity in the partnership possessing what we would recognise as a will, has to be the one making the decisions, even if that will is now harnessed together with Jenova's survival instincts.
A virus doesn't care or know that its victims experience despair. Sephiroth, on the other hand, knows and cares - he likes it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Just wanna clarify that Jenova isn't a virus. It spreads a virus, but it's a biological organism, an alien monster of some sort. But you are right, it is a monster. A cunning monster with wicked intelligence, but it's not nearly as ambitious or willful as Sephiroth. A person who carries an ego, ambition, will, etc.

Because in the end, Jenova is a monster. It's the Thing.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I am willing to accept that Jenova is not a virus if that's what canon says, but it seems to act like a virus. According to Tufts University website:
" A virus puts its information into a cell—a bacterial cell, a human cell, or animal cell, for example. It contains instructions that tell a cell to make more of the virus itself, in the same way a computer virus getting into a computer tells the computer to make more of itself."

This is the thing Jenova can do, and some characters in the game with Jenova cells can do it too: take over living things and make copies of themselves. The difference is that an ordinary old earth virus does this at a micro level, whereas Jenova does it at the macro level. Jenova is capable of mimicking the appearance of organisms who are accepted as "not-alien" in the group it is atacking, facilitating its take-over, and this is something microorganisms can also do. (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/sji.12697)

Jenova is what would happen if a whole bunch of viruses evolved into functioning as a single organism. (I would say functioning cooperatively, but that rather implies intent). Instinctively its individual units seek to be reunited, because operating en masse has proved to be a highly successful strategy for survival. Our bodies, after all, are merely an organised collection of millions of cells arranged in sub-systems designed to maximise every cell's chances of survival. The fact that we have evolved a brain with so much excess power that it's become self-aware and can feel guilt and be motivated by self-sacrifice, etc... is kind of incidental, though it certainly does further improve our cells' changes of surviving and our DNAs' chances of being reproduced.

So I would reason that it's less that Sephiroth won in a battle of wills with Jenova, and more than he took control of an organism that had no will as we would understand it, only instinct.

 

[Mobius Stripper]

I agree. I don't like the idea of Jenova as a sentient, thinking being. It seems more like Jenova as an algorithm-driven organism that is able to control the host's behavior in a crude way, but does so by reprogramming the host's existing mind and body without fundamentally changing them. I've always conceptualized Jenova as functioning similarly to Orphiocordyceps unilateralis, the zombie ant fungus, which influences the behavior patterns of ants in a way that enables it to spread itself. In which case, Sephiroth's mind is still more or less intact, but it has been implanted with a set of crude instructions that facilitates the Jenova organism's spread on a cosmic level.

 

[Fiz]

Yeah, most of these videos are too convoluted and over complicate things.

I think the only theories that might turn out to be accurate are the time loop, multiple timelines or prophetic vision theories - which tbh will amount to pretty much the same situation just with different “mechanics”.