The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
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- TresDias
Certainly within the realm of "could," but it as easily could not be if Jenova just eats the energy and burns the stuff up like a mako reactor.
Theory Videos and other interesting shit
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Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
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- The Engineer
The Lifestream is made of "spiritual energy"... which really is... well... think of it as the hard-drive for the Planet's Memories. All the memories of everything that has lived (and as of Remake, will live?) are stored on there after they die. Jenova/Sephiroth is described as "eroding" it after the OG. With Geostigma, they're absorbing the spiritual energy of people who die when they have it into a "Negative Lifestream". Sephiroth seems to have... brought it back with him... to Remake.
Memories are what Jenova was playing around with even before shed "died" in the OG though. She can read people's memories and make herself look like what is in their memories, seemingly without limitation. All for the purpose of manipulating those people to do what she wants them to.
I have a... very hard time... thinking that Jenova does all that manipulation, memory mimicking, and memory eating without knowing what she is doing. She's portrayed at being too good at it to have not had a lot of insight and practice at it. What trips her up is people who are *stubborn* about what they *know* to be true even if it goes against what they *see*. Those people can hold out against her and figure out that something is wrong and that she's not what she looks like (to the point they can figuratively out-muscle Jenova's control of the parts of her body that are in them, like Zack). People who are less sure about what is true are a lot more vulnerable to her influence.
For all that Jenova is like the Thing, one of the big differences is in in how the Thing can't *actually* make people see things that aren't there. It has no psychic powers it can use against other people mentally. It *can* make itself look (and think) like someone if it gets some of their blood somehow. But it can't... actually read other people's minds about how that person should act. Jenova can, and does, all over the place. And then can make people see things that aren't there. The Thing has a level of physicality with it's limitations for how it makes people think it's something else that Jenova lacks. Jenova has *a lot* more tools than the Thing does. And many of them are all about understanding the human psyche for the express purpose of manipulating it.
Of course... going with that is how if someone gets part of the Thing in them, they're screwed; they're now a part of it. If someone gets Jenova in them... it depends who ends up winning the "battle in the mind". And as it turns out... Jenova can *loose* that battle and that person can *gain* some really nice superpowers that can make it easier to fight Jenova in the long run.
I really don't think of Jenova as oh... a "slime mold". For me she's like... a Mindflayer from D&D that managed to get a body that works like the Thing's body. All her psycic abilities are still fully functional... she just now has a much *bigger* body that can spread out over a *very* wide area to conduct psychic attacks with (and can also be attacked psychically herself at times). And for the most part... it's working out for her pretty dang well.
Memories are what Jenova was playing around with even before shed "died" in the OG though. She can read people's memories and make herself look like what is in their memories, seemingly without limitation. All for the purpose of manipulating those people to do what she wants them to.
I have a... very hard time... thinking that Jenova does all that manipulation, memory mimicking, and memory eating without knowing what she is doing. She's portrayed at being too good at it to have not had a lot of insight and practice at it. What trips her up is people who are *stubborn* about what they *know* to be true even if it goes against what they *see*. Those people can hold out against her and figure out that something is wrong and that she's not what she looks like (to the point they can figuratively out-muscle Jenova's control of the parts of her body that are in them, like Zack). People who are less sure about what is true are a lot more vulnerable to her influence.
For all that Jenova is like the Thing, one of the big differences is in in how the Thing can't *actually* make people see things that aren't there. It has no psychic powers it can use against other people mentally. It *can* make itself look (and think) like someone if it gets some of their blood somehow. But it can't... actually read other people's minds about how that person should act. Jenova can, and does, all over the place. And then can make people see things that aren't there. The Thing has a level of physicality with it's limitations for how it makes people think it's something else that Jenova lacks. Jenova has *a lot* more tools than the Thing does. And many of them are all about understanding the human psyche for the express purpose of manipulating it.
Of course... going with that is how if someone gets part of the Thing in them, they're screwed; they're now a part of it. If someone gets Jenova in them... it depends who ends up winning the "battle in the mind". And as it turns out... Jenova can *loose* that battle and that person can *gain* some really nice superpowers that can make it easier to fight Jenova in the long run.
I really don't think of Jenova as oh... a "slime mold". For me she's like... a Mindflayer from D&D that managed to get a body that works like the Thing's body. All her psycic abilities are still fully functional... she just now has a much *bigger* body that can spread out over a *very* wide area to conduct psychic attacks with (and can also be attacked psychically herself at times). And for the most part... it's working out for her pretty dang well.
Schrodingersbabyseal
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My personal opinion on these might not be useful, since from a philosophical standpoint I don't actually believe in free will. I am approaching from a philosophy of mind/information theory background, so the way I use this terminology is somewhat poisoned by sophistry.
For the purpose of the discussion I'll answer them as follows:
1. Jenova displays consciousness through a perception of the external. This grants her a minimum of ontological self-awareness. Though clearly capable of cognition, I can not speak to her ability to cogitate, but I suspect the developer's intent allows for at least a modicum of self-reflection... though nothing concrete has ever shown this in the games.
2. I define Agency here as the emergent capacity to act. Said capacity is emergent from consciousness. Agency, however, is generally considered distinct from reflexive action, but only when non-deterministic philosophy. So when I call attention to Jenova's agency here, I mean that she is specifically initiating the communication. Whether or not this drive to "call out" to those in her proximity is purely instinctive somewhat irrelevant to the conversation imo.
So, does a hookworm have "agency"? I am not going to answer that... because the answer I give generally makes people uncomfortable.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
But if I assume that you mean by "agency" what I mean by "agency", I may misunderstand what you're trying to say and then, perhaps, disagree with you, when if I understood you correctly I might agree with you (or vice versa).
You are very unlikely to make me uncomfortable by anything you might say.
If I understand you correctly, you are saying that Jenova shows it is conscious through its ability to perceive the existence of things outside and separate from itself, and this ability allows it to be aware of its own existence as a discrete entity. You believe SE intended it to be capable of thought and self-reflection (which may well be the case). Thus, Jenova has agency because it is capable of acting voluntarily on intentions made by its conscious thought, as opposed to involuntary, instinctive (instinctual? I never known which is the right word) actions which are just reactions to external stimuli.
I must say, then, that I disagree with your statement that it's irrelevant whether the drive to Reunion is instinctive or voluntary. I think that question is central to the issue under discussion.
You are very unlikely to make me uncomfortable by anything you might say.
If I understand you correctly, you are saying that Jenova shows it is conscious through its ability to perceive the existence of things outside and separate from itself, and this ability allows it to be aware of its own existence as a discrete entity. You believe SE intended it to be capable of thought and self-reflection (which may well be the case). Thus, Jenova has agency because it is capable of acting voluntarily on intentions made by its conscious thought, as opposed to involuntary, instinctive (instinctual? I never known which is the right word) actions which are just reactions to external stimuli.
I must say, then, that I disagree with your statement that it's irrelevant whether the drive to Reunion is instinctive or voluntary. I think that question is central to the issue under discussion.
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Schrodingersbabyseal
Rookie Adventurer
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I believe I did my best to describe agency.
If you are pressing me for an answer to the hookworm question:
Hookworms don't have agency, and and neither do humans. The distinction between programmed "instinct" (stimulus response) and "choice" (emergent decision) is fabricated. So I wouldn't say anything that actually exists has agency... since I believe it to be a fictional construct. Hence why I didn't answer the question, the answer isn't useful when applied to fictional characters.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
So fictional characters can have agency but real people cannot? Because a fictional character can have a fictional construct? But what would the purpose of that be?
Ryeleigh
Pro Adventurer
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- Rye
I don't know, it still kind of sounds like the antagonist in Phantoms. I guess I'll spoiler tag this in case someone hasn't read it and would like to:
So the thing in Phantoms was basically this giant primaeval amoeba that hunted animals and "absorbed" them, gaining the ability to mimicry them perfectly. Once it started to hunt humans, it gained a consciousness and a massive ego to go with it, but also the ability to shapeshift into things that those humans had imagined. I facetiously dubbed it as an 'evil ditto'. It could also split itself into independent and -- er, what's the word for remotely controllable? -- pieces. Obviously there weren't any psychic abilities because Koontz apparently wanted to keep it in the realm of scientific possibility.
Eerie
Fire and Blood
I can tell you that indeed, it is the idea. Eternal vehicle, everlasting, etc. We are covering that part next with Peko
However, if that is true and not an misinterpretation of the people propagating a knowledge so old that it pre-dated the Republic... 
I think it'll be interesting to see if Bugenhagen follows that theory or not. I think he's the closer link to the truth in the OG about the Lifestream, the Planet...BTW this reminds me that the church is a remnant of the Republic days. Anyway, next part of ToTP is really interesting, as you can bet
Mobius Stripper
perfectly normal human worm baby
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- PunkassDiogenes
The concept of agency was developed to describe a specific phenomenon in human behavior, namely the ability to consciously associate potential courses of action with the subjective experiences of desire and aversion. I think it makes more sense to do away with the strict definition of agency, which is impossible to meet because it paradoxically demands that an agent not be driven by desire and aversion, than to suggest that it does not really exist. There is a meaningful distinction between beings that experience awareness of the decision-making process and those that do not, and "agency" is a useful term to describe that.
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Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
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- The Engineer
@Ryeleigh
Jenova is... similar... only... Jenova doesn't have to "consume" *anything* to mimic it. She can just pick out what she is mimicking from someone's head so long as they're in the same vicinity of her... which is considerably large since her body doesn't have to stay in one piece. It can be split up and it's *still* her body... that can read people's minds and show them illusions.
Jenova works... almost well as just some sort of energy entity. Her body isn't really *doing* a whole lot when it comes to how she can interact with people's souls/minds. All her body kinda functions for is as a medium to be able to take other beings over biologically as a part of herself. But even *that* has a psychic component to it. It's not *just* that she can turn beings into hybrids of herself. It's that she cannibalizes their souls. Jenova isn't mearly "eating" matter, she's "eathing" spirits/souls/whatever you want to call it.
Which kinda goes back to how body/soul is viewed as more or less the same thing in Eastern philosophy. Jenova's soul/mind is as involved in what she's doing as her body is. Or rather... Jenova's intention to kill the Planet isn't just because her body does it without "thinking". Her soul/mind does too. It's... honestly *really* hard to find Japanese enemies that are really acting "instinctively" because of this. Beings do stuff in JP media because they *want* too, rather than because it's something they "have" to do. It's a spiritual need that drives them rather than a physical need. Which is usually what is meant by "acting on instinct".
Jenova is... similar... only... Jenova doesn't have to "consume" *anything* to mimic it. She can just pick out what she is mimicking from someone's head so long as they're in the same vicinity of her... which is considerably large since her body doesn't have to stay in one piece. It can be split up and it's *still* her body... that can read people's minds and show them illusions.
Jenova works... almost well as just some sort of energy entity. Her body isn't really *doing* a whole lot when it comes to how she can interact with people's souls/minds. All her body kinda functions for is as a medium to be able to take other beings over biologically as a part of herself. But even *that* has a psychic component to it. It's not *just* that she can turn beings into hybrids of herself. It's that she cannibalizes their souls. Jenova isn't mearly "eating" matter, she's "eathing" spirits/souls/whatever you want to call it.
Which kinda goes back to how body/soul is viewed as more or less the same thing in Eastern philosophy. Jenova's soul/mind is as involved in what she's doing as her body is. Or rather... Jenova's intention to kill the Planet isn't just because her body does it without "thinking". Her soul/mind does too. It's... honestly *really* hard to find Japanese enemies that are really acting "instinctively" because of this. Beings do stuff in JP media because they *want* too, rather than because it's something they "have" to do. It's a spiritual need that drives them rather than a physical need. Which is usually what is meant by "acting on instinct".
Schrodingersbabyseal
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I would not be inclined to define its history quite so narrowly. Agency as a concept has a fairly complex history with multiple operating definitions over a wide array of magisteria... but it sounds like you may have some familiarity with Hume (apologies if this is an incorrect assumption, I taught philosophy in the UC system for years, almost anybody that framed agency with aversion and desire was a Hume contemporary).
While I agree that this distinction is both meaningful and benefits from being labeled, I am not sure that "agency" fits the bill, etymologically or historically, especially when well established labels for said distinction ('self-conscious' comes to mind).
Mobius Stripper
perfectly normal human worm baby
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- PunkassDiogenes
Yes! Another philosophy person! My degree is in philosophy, and I am an appreciator of Hume.
lethal01
Lv. 1 Adventurer
It seems like we have instance both of the Dev's saying that Sephiroth is totally in control and that his actions are controlled by jenovas will.
So I understand saying it's uncertain, but I don't think seeing Jenova call to people is at all proof of either or that the video makes any strong points to show that Sephiroth is being controlled.
But it is a 3 hour video, maybe I missed something.
So I understand saying it's uncertain, but I don't think seeing Jenova call to people is at all proof of either or that the video makes any strong points to show that Sephiroth is being controlled.
But it is a 3 hour video, maybe I missed something.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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- Smooth Criminal
Wait , where is it ever said Sephiroth's actions are controlled by Jenova's will?
I think it knows what it's doing too, because it clearly is engaged in a form of psychological manipulation. Comparing it to a suped up Mind Flayer is pretty accurate. It posseses strong psychic abilities to read minds so it must have some sort of mind to be able to read other's thoughts, emotions and then mimic them effectively to play upon those weaknesses and strike.
The only thing, is that while it has intelligence and wicked cunning, it doesn't seem to possess ambition or discernable ego or personality akin to a truly sapient creature. It seemingly lives just to kill, propagate and travel the stars without exhibiting any other traits that reveal its own identity. I personally do think it possesses some sapience and personality, however it's ambiguous within the text.
Right, and this is because the past exploits of Jenova are only anecdotal and historic. Narratively speaking, we are shown explicitly who the real and fully formed villain of FFVII is. It's Sephiroth. Jenova isn't dumb, but in the end it is the narrative tool, power and ally Sephiroth has at his side that enables his role of "villain." It's what set him on his path to power. It isn't the one pulling his strings or even a "character." It's as much a character as Schizo is.
Jenova is a fascinating creature given it's context and lore importance to FFVII's setting, however I feel like people get too absorbed by it and give it far more weight than it deserves. Jenova isn't a "character" so much as it is a "monster." An extremely powerful, capable and dangerous monster. But it certainly isn't the main villain, puppet master or antagonist of FFVII.
It's like propping up the Void, the Warring Triad or Yu Yevon as the true masterminds of their respective stories. They're just lore significant tools/entities/powers that enable the villains to reach greater heights.
I think it knows what it's doing too, because it clearly is engaged in a form of psychological manipulation. Comparing it to a suped up Mind Flayer is pretty accurate. It posseses strong psychic abilities to read minds so it must have some sort of mind to be able to read other's thoughts, emotions and then mimic them effectively to play upon those weaknesses and strike.
The only thing, is that while it has intelligence and wicked cunning, it doesn't seem to possess ambition or discernable ego or personality akin to a truly sapient creature. It seemingly lives just to kill, propagate and travel the stars without exhibiting any other traits that reveal its own identity. I personally do think it possesses some sapience and personality, however it's ambiguous within the text.
Right, and this is because the past exploits of Jenova are only anecdotal and historic. Narratively speaking, we are shown explicitly who the real and fully formed villain of FFVII is. It's Sephiroth. Jenova isn't dumb, but in the end it is the narrative tool, power and ally Sephiroth has at his side that enables his role of "villain." It's what set him on his path to power. It isn't the one pulling his strings or even a "character." It's as much a character as Schizo is.
Jenova is a fascinating creature given it's context and lore importance to FFVII's setting, however I feel like people get too absorbed by it and give it far more weight than it deserves. Jenova isn't a "character" so much as it is a "monster." An extremely powerful, capable and dangerous monster. But it certainly isn't the main villain, puppet master or antagonist of FFVII.
It's like propping up the Void, the Warring Triad or Yu Yevon as the true masterminds of their respective stories. They're just lore significant tools/entities/powers that enable the villains to reach greater heights.
Sleepezi did have a Nomura quote at 1:29:56 in his video that said Sephiroth coming back to see Cloud in AC was due to "Jenova's will, not Sephiroth's." Could be what they are referring to.
TurquoiseHammer
Pro Adventurer
That was from a botched localization in the Reunion Files that we've since retranslated but wasn't caught in time before the video came out. Here's a more accurate version:
P. 117
Nomura: At the outset, how and why Sephiroth appears before Cloud was rather vague; we hadn’t established a very precise reason for it. We considered a variety of scenarios, such as Cloud being the only one who could see Sephiroth, but in the end we settled on something more concrete—namely, Jenova’s will.
Original localization:
During the initial development phase, we didn't really have a very specific reason as to why Sephiroth would come back to see Cloud. I mean, we had a vague reason, but it wasn't very clearly laid out. Various ideas were put on the table, such as having Cloud be the only one who can see Sephiroth, etc. But towards the end, they solidified into the idea that it was actually Jenova's will not Sephiroth's. (Nojima)
I'm confident he's talking about the mechanism behind Sephiroth appearing (a Reunion of thoughtforms made possible by Jenova's lingering will) as opposed to who's controlling it. The "concrete" thing they settled on is Sephiroth's physical manifestation, as opposed to a less tangible version only visible to Cloud. Just my 2c.
P. 117
Nomura: At the outset, how and why Sephiroth appears before Cloud was rather vague; we hadn’t established a very precise reason for it. We considered a variety of scenarios, such as Cloud being the only one who could see Sephiroth, but in the end we settled on something more concrete—namely, Jenova’s will.
Original localization:
During the initial development phase, we didn't really have a very specific reason as to why Sephiroth would come back to see Cloud. I mean, we had a vague reason, but it wasn't very clearly laid out. Various ideas were put on the table, such as having Cloud be the only one who can see Sephiroth, etc. But towards the end, they solidified into the idea that it was actually Jenova's will not Sephiroth's. (Nojima)
I'm confident he's talking about the mechanism behind Sephiroth appearing (a Reunion of thoughtforms made possible by Jenova's lingering will) as opposed to who's controlling it. The "concrete" thing they settled on is Sephiroth's physical manifestation, as opposed to a less tangible version only visible to Cloud. Just my 2c.
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Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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- Smooth Criminal
I think "will" is being misunderstood in that context then.
There's "will" as in the "consciousness/cognitive direction/ego" and "will" as in the "belief/intention/existential direction."
Sephiroth is characterized numerous times as carrying a strong "will" in terms of his personality, mental power, ego and desire to exist. However, he is also stated numerous times to be the inheritor or successor of Jenova's "will." The will to destroy planets, life, etc.
This is where I feel there's a confusion. Sephiroth returned in AC thanks to Jenova's "memetic legacy." Jenova possesses an extremely powerful and resilient life force due to its Reunion regenerative powers and instincts to live and spread. Jenova's will is to carry on the destruction of planets, kill all life and reunite it's pieces to regenerate if it is ever beaten or wounded.
Sephiroth inherited that resilience, that will and it's abilities. That stubborn will to live and refuse to die and recycle into the Lifestream.
There's "will" as in the "consciousness/cognitive direction/ego" and "will" as in the "belief/intention/existential direction."
Sephiroth is characterized numerous times as carrying a strong "will" in terms of his personality, mental power, ego and desire to exist. However, he is also stated numerous times to be the inheritor or successor of Jenova's "will." The will to destroy planets, life, etc.
This is where I feel there's a confusion. Sephiroth returned in AC thanks to Jenova's "memetic legacy." Jenova possesses an extremely powerful and resilient life force due to its Reunion regenerative powers and instincts to live and spread. Jenova's will is to carry on the destruction of planets, kill all life and reunite it's pieces to regenerate if it is ever beaten or wounded.
Sephiroth inherited that resilience, that will and it's abilities. That stubborn will to live and refuse to die and recycle into the Lifestream.
TurquoiseHammer
Pro Adventurer
The text shows 意志 (ishi), but because it was a transcribed interview, Nojima could just as well have meant 意思 (ishi).
ph14basicbitch
shinra merch buyer
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idk how to say what i want to say in english, so enjoy this image loosely based on one i saw many years ago about both words
Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
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- The Engineer
I have *never* seen 意志 (ishi) related to Jenova in any lore book entry I've looked at... or about any of the Clones related to her. 意思 (ishi) turns up fairly often, particularly when it comes to Jenova's (or Angeal or Genesis) "intentions" influencing the "intentions" of their clones. So thinking Nomura probably meant 意思 (ishi) given the context seems *very* likely.
So you could say Sephiroth has both a strong "will" of his own and also inherited Jenova's "intentions" and it wouldn't be a contradiction at all. He's backing up Jenova's "intentions" with a strong "will" to carry them out.
cold_spirit
he/him
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- Alex T
One of my favorite contrasts is reading these big debate threads, then opening up Twitter and seeing Nojima just chilling with his guinea pigs. It happens a lot. This dude is causing so many fans to collectively lose their marbles over topics like the Whispers, Jenova/Sephiroth, the LTD, and he's just out there napping with Mr. Mol.
ph14basicbitch
shinra merch buyer
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I liked his recent photo where he ominously posted that he got something from Shinra Company.
(Because I want the container/box for my collection.)
Nojima got something from Shinra? Rufus confirmed playable character let's go bby.
(Because I want the container/box for my collection.)
Nojima got something from Shinra? Rufus confirmed playable character let's go bby.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
Oh I hope so. For me it would be a dream come true if the Turks and Rufus were at different points temporary playable characters - or even just non-playable guests in the fight, like Red XIII in Part 1.
I am so looking forward to the Corneo/Rapps battle on Da Chao.
Nojima seems to be a good example of how an owner comes to resemble its pet.
I am so looking forward to the Corneo/Rapps battle on Da Chao.
Nojima seems to be a good example of how an owner comes to resemble its pet.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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- Smooth Criminal
If they expand the Don Corneo scenario of Wutai, then yeah, I could see a multi-team boss fight against Rapps with the Turks as guests.
Rufus? I... I can't imagine him ever joining up with Cloud. Why in the world would he?
Rufus? I... I can't imagine him ever joining up with Cloud. Why in the world would he?
ph14basicbitch
shinra merch buyer
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- koda
Dude who cares it could be a $100 PS5 only DLC and I would buy it
Gonna go make a 3.5 hr long video theorizing about how Rufus could be a playable character
Gonna go make a 3.5 hr long video theorizing about how Rufus could be a playable character