I don't think people discussing on a discussion board is equivalent to a unhealthy fan obsession with a fictional character, dude. Let people discuss and debate if they want to. That's what the forum exists for.
I'll add that it's a thread that was slowing down pretty much. It's not like I'm bombarding every thread or every corner of this forum with it. Mako and I go back and forth
on a lot of points, and I always walk away being far better informed and have a more resolute understanding of FF7. It's a big reason I even come to this place. If Mako didn't hit back, hard, I don't know what I'd do with myself XD
Yes, the devs could do anything different, we don't know the future, but they've said (to this day) what their intention and goal is. And we see it in the works that they've done so far. You call it hyperbolic, I call it common sense. This isn't about "acknowledging" or "using elements." Toriyama and Nojima have repeatedly said their use of the Compilation has been with the intent of threading it all back to FFVII in ways that meaningfully connect and add depth to the FFVII story. They've done this narratively in reference to the point in time the story exists in continuity so that's pretty pertinent and consistent with their words.
I think this is where we're getting past each other. I'm going to spend much of this not quite walking back, but trying to shave down what I'm meaning to something a little more digestible.
And why is Genesis suddenly traveling through time to become the deuteragonist of FFVII-R...?
Whispers are dead/under Sephiroth's control. I don't think the Planet is going to just give up, it'll look around for another WEAPON capable of fighting Sephiroth and stopping all this. I really do believe Genesis is Minerva's champion, so fills that role nicely.
Neither Genesis nor Aerith has ever been hinted at with time traveling;
I disagree on the Aeirth point. I absolutely think she's had some sort of time traveling going on here. Physically? Maybe not, but she has serious visions and knowledge of the future and how events are supposed to go. She seems to understand her future/fated death, and that they've changed the course of events.
I don't think the ending of Remake was fluff. We literally defeated the chains of our destiny and can walk a different role. I don't think that'll change the
sequence of the OG, but I think certain story elements and thoughts will be different. Consider how we ended up in Aerith's room. Before, we were caught by Rude and arrested, essentially. We followed the same sequence of events, but we changed some of the elements. We went up to see the President's assassination, only he wasn't dead yet this time. Same sequence of events, but changed some elements.
So what could this look like elsewhere? Totally making these up, but something different could happen in Nibelheim, Cait Sith might not sacrifice themselves in the Temple of Ancients in the same way, chasing Yuffie and Don Corneo down in Wutai might have some added sequences or different beats.
You're recycling and throwing Genesis in this foil role, which ultimately sounds more like an attempt to repeat Crisis Core again. The question becomes, why is the spotlight of FFVII's plot and conflict being shifted to that? What's even the theme here?
So there's two things here. Firstly, I think it's a sequel plot to CC: Genesis was on his path of falling and then becoming the Planet's champion in CC (well, Minerva's.) Now, he is the Minerva's Knight/Champion/dude, but we haven't seen that acted upon at any point. So it's about Genesis continuing and acting on that role.
So what's the theme? Genesis and CC heavily influencing Part II would be powerful as it shows the
what if path for Sephiroth. Sephiroth didn't have to become this evil monster, there was a human part of him (thrown away in Lifestream Black) that could have embraced the Planet and rejected Jenova as Genesis has done. They're polar opposites, one fighting for Minerva and the other fighting for Jenova.
And that leaves Cloud fighting for Aerith. Humanity, choice, free will, and rejecting a "determined" fate. Narratively, it gives us insight into Sephiroth's past and lets Remake delve into new aspects of the character by placing a foil into the story. But this foil can also definitevely explain the time travel elements between Sephiroth, Aerith, and of course, himself if any occur.
That just sounds like wish fulfillment fanfic that has no ultimate statement or theme whatsoever. Aerith is being prevented from dying because they have no reason to let it happen..?
Well, we know 2 things. 1. Aerith doesn't
have to die for Holy and the Lifestream to be effective. We've talked about this many times before. Cetra can control/influence the Lifestream while living. So she could do everything she did while alive. Aerith (and Zack) are running around right now (to some extent) without the shackles of their previously determined fates. The end of Remake was all about changing the future. What future does the player want to change? Aerith.
But they can't, because, as you said, it cheapens/breaks the narrative themes of the loss so core to FF7. So Aerith does have to die. But not before wanting to reject her fate and Cloud and co. determining to save her and change the events of FF7 history/future. But Aerith has to make the decision to die in order to return to the OG timeline more closely, to ensure everything that happened continues to happen.
This is why Genesis, a character who is so caught up in fighting his fate in CC, can serve so thematically to Aerith's current journey. He rejected his fate and made a choice, he fought for the planet, but the characters can't always understand what the planet wants. His antagonist role in Part II could set up this Aerith's maturation and preparation for what will come in Part III (her death, and her knowingly going to it alone, against Cloud's, the Party's, and the Player's wishes).
Like they know that's in the picture? What even is the story of FFVII at that point? Because you literally just took every consistent theme and message regarding the story and shoved it into an industrial meat grinder.
To some extent, SE has already done that. When Wedge lived, with Bigg's survival, and Zack's (whatever that is) the themes of loss are already threatened. They're either moving on from it (which I doubt) or they'll find big ways to get the player to feel strongly about Aerith's death, doubt it's coming, and be moved by it.
At least Toriyama's statement regarding the impact of Zack, Biggs and Jessie potentially surviving spoke to how the story remains one of loss so the question becomes, what kind of world exists where every loss somehow gets transactionally refunded or prevented.
Yeah, this. 100%, Mako. Right now, I think the player has a very real reason to think Aerith might live. Frankly, if Zack survives, anybody can, Aerith included. The possibility that these characters could all survive and have happy endings? Well, one of them is alive, why not more? And I'm not arguing they'll all live happily ever after. I think the real "loss" we're going to come to terms with in this game is that Aerith determines to embrace that fate because it rights history and there'll be lessons that we
have to accept loss, even when we hate it, even when we feel like we could play god and prevent it, everything and everyone will die. But there's hope. Hope we'll see our loved ones again, hope that there's a silver lining or meaning in a death, and strength in our ability to mourn and move on.
The Aerith we have right now in Remake has no reason to let herself die in a future she seems to know fully about. The party is seeing visiosn of the future/past and will work to stop it. Why, in any world, would Aerith embrace that?
Especially if her true love Zack is alive?! The character is going to grow.
And why do you think that DC stinger from 2006 is so important? That was already acknowledged as the stinger for Crisis Core. Why is that somehow the core moment in the Remake 18 years later?
I think it's important because it's the latest chronological moment in which two big players in the FF7-verse set off to do "more work." While it's a stinger/teaser for the game CC, the "more work" bit hasn't been answered. What Genesis is doing after DoC? No one knows. Lalo Salamanco is sitting here saying, "What's he doing, man? What's he up to?" Finishing that story in some manner closes out the last remaining threads of the original Compilation works.
Let's say that was the moment that Minerva (the Fate/Planet/Goddess/Whatever) chose to awaken Genesis and say, "Yo, Champ, go back and mess Seph up. He's mucking with the timeline." So Genesis says, "Yo, you got it, bae. Lemme grab my boy, Weiss because saving the planet is more fun with friends!" Well, we have a narrative moment that ties back into everything going on that literally closes the loop.
No, we have no evidence Genesis is time traveling right now, and he doesn't have to time travel to have a roll in FF7 Remake Part II. But it would be a nice way of closing that loop.
If literally changing the antagonist and rewriting the ending of a story isn't changing the trajectory of the story at all, then what is it?
Not changing the trajectory of the story. Let's imagine someone wrote a spoiler free walkthrough to OG FF7. Here's the dungeons, the bosses, the big challenges and events you need to know about without the story detail.
That's the Remake Saga. It's following the OG incredibly close, with a few new adventures tossed in. However, if we compare scripts or plot events, stuff is drastically different. The Whispers, Rufus's ability to see them, Sephiroth uh... absorbing? them, Aerith having snippets of the future, Red XIII's increased knowledge, the very purposeful nod to AC in those final fights, etc. It's changed the story, but it's following all the same locations and major events.
We'll still see the Turks in Gongaga. We'll still get robbed by Yuffie. We'll use a sub to find the Key to the Ancients, and all those other beats. But some of the story is going to be different.
My proposal, my suspicion, and my strong expectation is that Part II will follow Kalm/Nibelheim Flashback to Nibelheim/Getting Vincent/Confronting Sephiroth all over again. That story and those events will stay the same. The thing that changes is Zack is likely going to have a story that builds up Genesis, we'll confront Genesis who replaces the role of the Whispers as the "something different" about the story, and we'll have a big showdown with Genesis at Nibelheim to end the game with a bang.
The party will be left with heavy questions. Genesis was trying to protect the fated future in which Aerith dies and Cloud will emphatically reject that. Say no, he's saving her. This plays into Sephiroth's hands, and the game ends on a both upbeat but ominous note.
Part III can pick up on that when Aerith rejects Cloud's stance, embraces her fate, and sets things right. The sequences will stay the same. We do the events in the same order, we're playing the OG, but the story evolves in much the same was a Remake did.
how do you keep the narrative following the previous "story beats, journey, location and adventures" that came before?
And this is just explained. It's really the
exact same way that Remake did it. Think about all the little things that changed. Cloud is seeing Sephiroth, more willing to kill/execute folk, Rude has to help push the button to destroy the plate, they see Shinra's dark experiments, Wedge survives and Avalanche is bigger and more active. Yuffie is in Shinra and throws down with Scarlet, Wutai is being framed/scapegoated, Barret experiences death, the party already knows Jenova is some sort of monster they have to fight, they know how seriously dangerous Sephiroth is, and they've seen meteor. When they/we get to the Temple of the ancients, someone better say:
"You see this mural, it's just like the visions we've been seeing!"
Remake is definitely different but also the same as the Original. It has clearly added story elements that do change the narrative from a certian standpoint. Yet, we pretty much just played through the original, didn't we? We saw our old polygon scenes brought to cinematic life.
I think if we map out the OG, and then put the Remake games next to it, we'll find all the areas and challenges to be the same. But small, subtle, whisper like changes will keep showing up. Things that change the story just so. I think that'll be Genesis.
I push hard that Remake introduced a multiverse to FFVII. In this, I believe Zack survived in what we lovingly call the "Terrier timeline". However, just because I think Zack is in a separate timeline from the party's doesn't mean I think his story will be inconsequential or "hidden away". Just the opposite actually. I see Zack adventuring in another timeline as a way to slowly introduce the multiverse concept through the inconsistencies we'll inevitably see.
I'm really curious. I see a lot of evidence for there being one verse, one timeline that's just being rewritten/edited, as well as multiverse. The Terrier/Beagle is the biggest oddity to me. In no separate timeline should
that be different. That doesn't make sense as a change. So it really could be a multiverse.
Comparisons of scripts between OG and Remake, though, make me lean heavily on the time travel (or whatever this is) as just being a deepdive in memory. Right? Jumping around into things the planet remembers or whatever. Sephiroth is Sephiroth with a future memory being present or whatever. So I'm really not sure. I have no idea.
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