What if I was in the director’s chair? ~ My Part 2 Outline

[KindOfBlue]

If she does still die, wouldn’t that be the place to end part 2 of 3 on?

 

[ForceStealer]

Only if they want to ruin the entire narrative impact of the event. That it was to directly counter the typical Hollywood dramatic death (represented by Cait Sith's at the Temple). That it happened suddenly, and you had to immediately move on and feel her loss in the gameplay. To give it the significance of the ending of a game would be to renege on all of that and make it THE typical Hollywood overdramatic death.

 

[Theozilla]

If she does still die, wouldn’t that be the place to end part 2 of 3 on?

That or after completing the Temple of the Ancients or the Weapons waking up/Cloud falling into the Lifestream. Those are the three most likely ending spots for Part 2 (under the presumption the OG plot general outline is still going be to followed, which I assume it will).

 

[Roger]

Weapons waking up/Cloud falling into the Lifestream..

Barret opening the blinds to reveal the Meteor in the sky would be the best ending card in that scenerio.

 

[ForceStealer]

It is the perfect ending for part 2 of a trilogy. You'd even get Jenova as a final boss if they were actually sticking to the plot, which I know they're not, but if they were the argument for it is even stronger.

Temple of the Ancients is a decent alternative. Solid final dungeon, ends on a mystery of where Aerith went. Not as strong, but still good.

 

[Theozilla]

Barret opening the blinds to reveal the Meteor in the sky would be the best ending card in that scenerio.

I think that could also work (if not work better) as a great cold opening scene for Part 3. Like a brief muddled flashback of the chaos of the Weapons waking up l, then fading in to Tifa waking up and being greeted by Barret and him revealing Meteor in the sky (which could even fade/match-cut to the Amano logo and title).

 

[KindOfBlue]

Only if they want to ruin the entire narrative impact of the event. That it was to directly counter the typical Hollywood dramatic death (represented by Cait Sith's at the Temple). That it happened suddenly, and you had to immediately move on and feel her loss in the gameplay. To give it the significance of the ending of a game would be to renege on all of that and make it THE typical Hollywood overdramatic death.

The reason I don’t buy into this is because whatever “impact” they’re going for…they already did. I’d argue the biggest thing that softens the impact of her death in this case is the fact that most of the fanbase is already expecting it, hence why they’re playing around so much with expectations. I think some people vastly overestimate how much impact the remake’s version of the scene would have if the game just copied the OG straight. That said, I’d prefer ending at the Northern Crater but I’m skeptical about how much story they’re going to have to pack into Rebirth to get that far.

 

[ForceStealer]

The surprise isn't the impact. Narrative construction is. The Remake has already done the heavy lifting of making Aerith and all the characters so much more fleshed-out and likable that the loss would feel greater than the OG, not less.

A significant percentage of players knew how Crisis Core was going to end. That did not diminish its impact. If anything, it heightened it. Of course, now CCR will end with him living so *jerkoff motion*

 

[KindOfBlue]

The surprise isn't the impact. Narrative construction is. The Remake has already done the heavy lifting of making Aerith and all the characters so much more fleshed-out and likable that the loss would feel greater than the OG, not less.

A significant percentage of players knew how Crisis Core was going to end. That did not diminish its impact. If anything, it heightened it. Of course, now CCR will end with him living so *jerkoff motion*

I’d argue the surprise is part of the OG narrative construction in Aerith’s case given that there was no prior knowledge of her death like there was with Zack’s by the time CC came out, so I wouldn’t equate the two. I doubt the devs anticipated Aerith’s death becoming “that spoiler that everybody knows” but it’s where we are now and it’s impossible to recreate the exact conditions the OG existed in. I wouldn’t say the remake’s version of Aerith’s death would be less impactful by regurgitating the OG though, really more of an extension of the OG. But alas, it seems that’s not enough for the devs. For that, they might as well just tell people to play the OG (which they have).

 

[ForceStealer]

Sure, it was an element. But as you say, it became the biggest open secret in gaming, so the scores of people who played and became a fan of the game subsequently clearly still found narrative value in it. I played the game in '98 and I knew it was going to happen and it became my favorite game anyway. To suggest that "shock" is the only the narrative tool worth pursuing is shortsighted, imo. [insert old-man rant about lazy modern writing in shows and movies that pursues shock over all other considerations]

The option available to remake would be to make you feel the loss more than the original ever could. Both of the character herself, and seeing the rest of the characters react and deal with it in a way the original never even attempted.

I'm not saying this is evidence that they will stick to the story, I'm using it as evidence of why they should have Because the argument that "it won't be a shock, so they can't do it" is no argument at all if we have any faith in their writing ability.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Sure, it was an element. But as you say, it became the biggest open secret in gaming, so the scores of people who played and became a fan of the game subsequently clearly still found narrative value in it. I played the game in '98 and I knew it was going to happen and it became my favorite game anyway. To suggest that "shock" is the only the narrative tool worth pursuing is shortsighted, imo. [insert old-man rant about lazy modern writing in shows and movies that pursues shock over all other considerations]

The option available to remake would be to make you feel the loss more than the original ever could. Both of the character herself, and seeing the rest of the characters react and deal with it in a way the original never even attempted.

I'm not saying this is evidence that they will stick to the story, I'm using it as evidence of why they should have Because the argument that "it won't be a shock, so they can't do it" is no argument at all if we have any faith in their writing ability.

The problem is we can’t completely divorce the shock element from that moment because whether or not we believe it to be a significant factor in the long run, the fact remains that it was there. The game makes you think Aerith will be a long-lasting party member and potentially a romantic partner for Cloud only to pull the rug out from underneath.

People seem so sure that they’d feel just as sad about Aerith’s remake death as they did for her OG death but there is no way to truly assess this without bias because our remake experience is colored by the OG itself in the first place. Hell, the devs seem to be banking on the fact that most of the fans already know it’s coming, which is what seemed to inform their approach to the remake.

Say what you will about shock, but it’s powerful and it’s real. In the right hands, it can be used to great effect. I’ve got my own gripes about the overuse of shock in modern storytelling, but I can’t deny its effect on the majority. All I can do is accept what it is for what it’s trying to be, not for what I want it to be. Shock may be a flash-in-the-pan kind of feeling in isolation, but there’d be no point to storytelling if we already knew where every story is going. I’d go as far as saying it’s antithetical to life itself.

Some of us have very specific visions for how we want Aerith’s death to play out based on subjective notions on what would maximize “impact” and to me it’s unfortunate because there’s no way to satisfy everybody. We did not get here in the first place by prewriting the story in our heads for the devs to then cater to our headcanon (which is pretty harmless unless you’re somebody like Jairus who’s literally calling for a boycott of SE over Jessie and for Tifa to be removed from the remake) and I think we rob ourselves of the experience by being convinced that it has to be like X or else it’s bad.

The surprises, the unknown, it’s all part of the journey and I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss it as just cheap tricks. Many things are going to seem cheap by comparison because ultimately what we’re experiencing now is an extension of what we’ve already gone through. To take us back to when we truly didn’t know where the story is going, I’d say that’s an impressive storytelling feat in itself. Look at us now, we just don’t know what’s next. It’s the “story” part of “storytelling”, without it all we’re left is telling what we’ve already been told.

 

[ForceStealer]

The problem is we can’t completely divorce the shock element from that moment because whether or not we believe it to be a significant factor in the long run, the fact remains that it was there

Not for me it wasn't. And likely not even for a majority of the people that have played FF7 over the years.

 

[Odysseus]

Given it's a trilogy now, Ending on north crater would be ideal. Part 2 will probably follow the original game's pace, though much more loosely than part 1 did. Differences are already piling on, even if you disagree with my thoughts on this project, it's evident we have:

- Alive Biggs and Zack (!!)
- A Sephiroth who knows what happened the first time and is fighting it
- A party who knows what Jenova is already and has had some visions of things to come (or not anymore?), like meteor.
- A Cloud who remembers Zack, going by the Rebirth trailer
- An Aerith who seems willing to change the future
- The embodiment of fate has been destroyed or subsumed

So I agree with Waw that the bones of the journey will be very similar, but the meat will be different. Probably much more significantly different than part 1. Zack being the focal point of the first trailer was no mistake.

What I think is that the third and final act will be almost entirely original. The huge materia quest and Midgar revisit are the only big things left after North Crater besides finding Cloud, so there's a lot of room for cramming in a whole new plotline before going to confront Sephiroth. I think this is where this project's main thematic purpose will come to the forefront.

 

[Theozilla]

(again going under the presumption that the OG's general outline is going to followed, I am not interested in debating the presupposition for most discussions)

Anyways, my current speculative/ideal chapter break down for Rebirth (with the Northern Crater being the ending point) presently looks something like this:

Chapter 1: Kalm/opening stuff
Chapter 2: Nibelheim flashback
Chapters 3-4: Chocobo Farm, Yuffie joining the party, Road to Junon, Marshes & Mythril Mines, Elena's introduction, & Fort Condor
Chapter 5: Junon (plus any remaining Eastern Continent backtracking/exploration)
Chapter 6: Ship and Costa del Sol
Chapters 7-8: Mt. Corel, North Corel, Cait Sith joining the party, Gold Saucer, & Corel Prison
Chapter 9: Gongaga & remake original material (plus some Western Continent exploration)
Chapter 10: Cosmo Canyon
Chapters 11-12: Return to Nibelheim, Vincent joining the party, Mt. Nibel mountains
Chapter 13: Rocket Town & Cid joining the party
Chapters 14-16: Wutai, more Western continent exploration, remake original material, return to the Gold Saucer
Chapter 17: Temple of the Ancients
Chapters 18-19: Getting to the Northern Continent, Bone Village, Forgotten City & Aerith's death
Chapter 20: Icicle Inn/Area (plus maybe Modeoheim)
Chapter 21: More Icicle Area, then Northern Crater+ending

 

[waw]

"Why is it that they focus on healing?"

See the fifth post in this thread, by Cold.

I would not be surprised if Aerith and Zack live in the end and Cloud ends up forgiving Sephiroth. Which Sephiroth? The "human" part he cut off and tossed into the Lifestream that got absorbed back in Lifestream: Black. It would make sense that parts of what they're doing is telling the overall FF7 story to fans, not just separate projects with little to no relation to each other. CC gives us some insights, Ever Crisis is giving us more about Sephiroth before Jenova. We're a long ways from having anything like this confirmed. Sephiroth (or any facet) hasn't started on that redemption path at all, but we have time.

The reason I don’t buy into this is because whatever “impact” they’re going for…they already did.

The surprise isn't the impact. Narrative construction is.

This talk about Aerith's future and her death... this is why I addressed what I did in Part II prediction/what I would do if I was directing. Right now, they really have no reason to kill Aerith. Every effect will be gone from the original:
1. Most of the fandom knows it's coming.
2. They've hinted heavily that it's coming. The "shock" factor will no longer play in at all.
3. OG death not only shocked the player, it was really felt in the playing of the game (sudden party member loss). We'll know it's coming, when it comes, and there's enoug players (especially with Vincent and Yuffie) playthroughs won't be so deeply affected.
4. The game is hitting harder on emotions. We won't have the experience of a dead Aerith and just forced to move on. We'll see it hit all the characters harder and it'll be much more "Hollywood," which has been a criticism here.

No way of killing Aerith will have nearly the same affect unless the following three conditions are met:

1. Aerith has to be reunited with Zack. Build up a happy life for them. We feel the trauma through Zack.
2. Aerith has to survive her initial death. (Fake out). Or die sooner in the story (Temple of Ancients, etc)
3. The story must readdress the theme of "loss" this many years later.

With characters returning like their comic book superheroes, a "death" is a lot less meaningful. Even in Advent Children and Lifestream: White, her death isn't the end of the story and for us players, that means her loss no longer carries that same final weight.

Just thinking about this, it feels that quite easily, killing Aerith will be "cheapened" by the narrative currently. If other characters survive their deaths, it'll be frustrating. If Aerith doesn't die, it could feel too happy ending and tonally too different.

The player has to be brought to the point of feeling like they did with the OG. That's how Remake played out. Much different gameplay, but man it felt as epic and amazing as did when I was wee lil Waw. They have a lot of work to do before killing Aerith will have remotely as powerful of an impact on the player.

It really may be far easier to find Aerith forgiving/absolving Sephiroth of his sins and the theme focused on redemption, healing, cleansing old wounds. Jenova can be the real villain in the end.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Not for me it wasn't. And likely not even for a majority of the people that have played FF7 over the years.

It wasn’t a shock for me either, but we’re speaking long after the fact. The reason we’re where we are now is because of what came before us. Because of how much of an impact her death was for those who were there to witness it without expecting it, so much so that the devs had fans requesting them to somehow let her live.

For those of us who knew about her death beforehand, the shock may not be there so the impact relies on everything else surrounding it. But the reason we know about the death in the first place is because of how impactful it was for the people who didn’t know about it. Those people experienced the story as it was designed, as I’d venture to guess most creatives would prefer their audience to not be spoiled before experiencing their works, even if unavoidable to a degree.

Realistically, there was no way for the devs to anticipate how much of a well-known spoiler Aerith’s death would be. The only thing they could have concerned themselves with was what their audience would feel right then and there. Imagine if creators were so concerned with how the effect of shock will just wear out over time that it prevents them from doing anything shocking at all. That doesn’t sound like a favorable position for art to exist in to me and evidently, not to these devs either.

 

[Makoeyes987]

- A party who knows what Jenova is already and has had some visions of things to come (or not anymore?), like meteor.

I really don't think that's a big difference, tbh. They still don't precisely know what Jenova is, other than it's a weird monster that Shinra kept hidden within their Drum research facility and Sephiroth calls it "Mommy."

 

[Odysseus]

I'm mostly referring to how Aerith seems to know quite a bit about her already, calling her "the beginning of everything" or something like that.

 

[Makoeyes987]

See, and I wonder if Aerith knows precisely what that means. Is she saying that Jenova is the "source of everything" in relation to it landing on the Planet and wiping the Cetra out, or is she talking about it being crucial to Sephiroth's purpose?

I'm more of a mind she's referring to the Cetra extinction which, is a change (since the party learns of that fact in the OG at Icicle Lodge from Professor Gast) in a lore sense, but how does that really change how the party relates to their quest of opposing Sephiroth? Her having some historic knowledge of Jenova doesn't seem as major as like, Cloud remembering Zack or Sephiroth having some hidden scheme regarding the future of the Planet, to me.

 

[Theozilla]

I'm mostly referring to how Aerith seems to know quite a bit about her already, calling her "the beginning of everything" or something like that.

Aerith knows Jenova is important/significant but she doesn’t really comprehend the nitty-gritty details of it yet. And Aerith having heard like stories about the Cetra and Jenova (but not necessarily connecting it with her present situation immediately) is an entirely feasible scenario but it doesn’t change much in the way of character and plot dynamics.

 

[Odysseus]

The Aerith of the OG didn't make such grand statements about things as Remake Aerith did in that scene. I don't think it's up for debate at all that she knows a lot more about what's going on than she has let on, far more than she did in the original, and that's mostly what I'm getting at here. She could know about Jenova through her mom, but that's not why she knows about Jenova. She remembers from the first go around, much like Sephiroth. That's why they have that little cryptic dialogue sparring match before the whisper harbinger fight. Aerith has her own agenda in all this as well. "the future, even if it has been written, can be changed" is a very loaded line lol.

Really, "An Aerith who knows what's going on more than she originally did" should be on the list.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Oh, Aerith does know more than she originally knew in the OG. I don't think there's any doubt. I'm just saying I don't think that knowledge of Jenova is as pertinent as some of the other things like, knowing Cloud's identity as a mercenary beforehand. Or knowing the Sector 7 plate collapse was going to happen. Or knowing who Marlene is without introduction.

I don't think it's her "knowing from the first go around." I think it's more, she's receiving the knowledge/memories of those events thanks to the Whispers having been near her and they're a reactive substance. That's how Toriyama explained it in the Ultimania Plus. They seemingly carry that knowledge of...FFVII within them. Aerith is Aerith and she's not dead or reincarnated or anything complicated like that. I don't know if the Whispers are carrying specifically her memories but they're filled with memories/knowledge of FFVII. And Aerith's received some of them, which is why it feels like she's losing part of herself. Her mind is being overloaded with information from an outside source.

 

[Theozilla]

The Aerith of the OG didn't make such grand statements about things as Remake Aerith did in that scene. I don't think it's up for debate at all that she knows a lot more about what's going on than she has let on, far more than she did in the original, and that's mostly what I'm getting at here. She could know about Jenova through her mom, but that's not why she knows about Jenova. She remembers from the first go around, much like Sephiroth. That's why they have that little cryptic dialogue sparring match before the whisper harbinger fight. Aerith has her own agenda in all this as well. "the future, even if it has been written, can be changed" is a very loaded line lol.

Really, "An Aerith who knows what's going on more than she originally did" should be on the list.

Oh I don’t deny that Aerith in the Remake has future knowledge/memories, the way the devs describe it is that Aerith basically acts like a receptor for memories from the future/Lifestream, and can even allow other people to pseudo-access them. (though I wonder if she still can access them after the defeat the of Whisper Harbinger?)
I just meant that having vague knowledge of Jenova can be easily explained without the Whisper/future memory stuff factoring in to it.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1417509938390212615

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1421503981222699012

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1415988916876832769

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1415649097290186752

 

[Odysseus]

Oh I don’t deny that Aerith in the Remake has future knowledge/memories, they way devs describe it is that Aerith basically acts like a receptor for memories from the future/Lifestream, and can even allow other people to pseudo-access them. (though I wonder if she still can access them after the defeat the of Whisper Harbinger?)

It's said in the remake's ultimania that she actually lose some of her future memories when the whispers touch her, which is what she talks about at the beginning of chapter 17. I don't think that she has a live connection to the future as much as she was implanted with that knowledge at some unspecified point. I assume it will be revealed how and why she knows what she does in Rebirth given Nomura's comment there. I don't think destroying the whispers would impede her knowledge. probably the opposite given what we know.

 

[Makoeyes987]

But doesn't Aerith say in "Trace of Two Pasts" that the knowledge she had of the future has left her thanks to the Whispers no longer being around?