What Plot Lines or Characters Do You Think Are Ignored/Overlooked/Wasted In The Compilation?

#51
Why do I think it's better for the story when Hojo is Sephiroth's dad? Well, for one thing making Vincent his father is too melodramatic to fit with the spirit of the game as a whole, which strove to subvert a lot of these cliches. Tragic father forced to kill the son he never knew, both of them turned into monsters by the evil scientist who stole the mother's love and then cast her aside.... This story arc lays on the tragedy with a trowel, but that's about all it does. Plus it adds to the wrongs Vincent has suffered, as if he didn't have enough already. It makes Hojo more evil (like that's necessary), Lucretia more of a bitch; it makes everything more black and white, in a game that strove for subtle shades of grey.

Whereas, in what I like to think of as the received version, Hojo and Lucretia are kindred spirits, so wrapped up in the pursuit of science that they are willing to experiment on their own child. This is their sin, and Vincent's sin is that he stood by and allowed it to happen. Blinded by his love for Lucretia, he let these people use a defenceless unborn child for their own purposes. If that child were Vincent's child, the moral (I don't think that's really the word I'm looking for, but whatever) - the moral would be diluted, because the offense would become personal. Vincent would no longer have sinned by abandoning a child to the merciless scientific curiosity of its mother and father; he would have sinned because he'd failed to protect his own child, which is a substantively different offense. Hojo was a monster; Vincent stood by and allowed Hojo to seduce Lucretia into becoming a monster, and then, when he finally challenged them, they made him a monster.

Heaping the sin of filicide on Vincent's already burdened shoulders just seems like overkill to me. All the members of Avalanche are supposed to find redemption through the role they play in defeating Sephiroth, but how can being forced to kill your own child ever be seen as any kind of redemption?

If Sephiroth is Vincent's son, what we have is the pseudo-tragedy of a father being forced to kill the son with whom he has no relationship whatsoever. On the other hand, if we accept the canon (and it is canon) that Hojo is Sephiroth's father, we are presented with the much more interesting and fruitful (IMHO) situation of a man whose son is also his greatest science experiment. And aren't we all, in a sense, our parents' experiments?

Many parents would be pleased to know they'd raised a war hero; most would be devastated to know they'd raised a mass murderer and criminal lunatic. Hojo, however, is fascinated and thrilled by everything his son does; in that sense, he's everybody's dream parent. He never utters a disapproving word about Sephiroth. He is tremendously proud of his son, and Sephiroth's contempt for him seems to give him a perverse pleasure. Why he never told Sephiroth that he was his father is a mystery about which we can only speculate. More mysteriously still, there seems to have been nothing written about Sephiroth's paternity in any of the books he was reading in the basement of the Nibelheim mansion during the week before he burned the town down.

If Vincent were Sephiroth's father, the dynamic between Sephiroth and Hojo would lose all its poignancy and power. Every time Sephiroth said something scathing to Hojo or called him a second-rate scientist, we could imagine Hojo secretly rubbing his hands with glee and thinking, Oh, if only you knew what I did to your father, my boy....

Hojo's inability to distinguish between a child and a science experiment, and the fact that he loves both exactly the same, is a crucial factor in the development of one the game's themes, namely, the many ways in which parents fail their children. If Sephiroth were Vincent's son, all of this would be lost, to be replaced by a trite melodrama.
 
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jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
#52
Why do I think it's better for the story when Hojo is Sephiroth's dad? Well, for one thing making Vincent his father is too melodramatic to fit with the spirit of the game as a whole, which strove to subvert a lot of these cliches. Tragic father forced to kill the son he never knew, both of them turned into monsters by the evil scientist who stole the mother's love and then cast her aside.... This story arc lays on the tragedy with a trowel, but that's about all it does. Plus it adds to the wrongs Vincent has suffered, as if he didn't have enough already. It makes Hojo more evil (like that's necessary), Lucretia more of a bitch; it makes everything more black and white, in a game that strove for subtle shades of grey.

Whereas, in what I like to think of as the received version, Hojo and Lucretia are kindred spirits, so wrapped up in the pursuit of science that they are willing to experiment on their own child. This is their sin, and Vincent's sin is that he stood by and allowed it to happen. Blinded by his love for Lucretia, he let these people use a defenceless unborn child for their own purposes. If that child were Vincent's child, the moral (I don't think that's really the word I'm looking for, but whatever) - the moral would be diluted, because the offense would become personal. Vincent would no longer have sinned by abandoning a child to the merciless scientific curiosity of its mother and father; he would have sinned because he'd failed to protect his own child, which is a substantively different offense. Hojo was a monster; Vincent stood by and allowed Hojo to seduce Lucretia into becoming a monster, and then, when he finally challenged them, they made him a monster.

Heaping the sin of filicide on Vincent's already burdened shoulders just seems like overkill to me. All the members of Avalanche are supposed to find redemption through the role they play in defeating Sephiroth, but how can being forced to kill your own child ever be seen as any kind of redemption?

If Sephiroth is Vincent's son, what we have is the pseudo-tragedy of a father being forced to kill the son with whom he has no relationship whatsoever. On the other hand, if we accept the canon (and it is canon) that Hojo is Sephiroth's father, we are presented with the much more interesting and fruitful (IMHO) situation of a man whose son is also his greatest science experiment. And aren't we all, in a sense, our parents' experiments?

Many parents would be pleased to know they'd raised a war hero; most would be devastated to know they'd raised a mass murderer and criminal lunatic. Hojo, however, is fascinated and thrilled by everything his son does; in that sense, he's everybody's dream parent. He never utters a disapproving word about Sephiroth. He is tremendously proud of his son, and Sephiroth's contempt for him seems to give him a perverse pleasure. Why he never told Sephiroth that he was his father is a mystery about which we can only speculate. More mysteriously still, there seems to have been nothing written about Sephiroth's paternity in any of the books he was reading in the basement of the Nibelheim mansion during the week before he burned the town down.

If Vincent were Sephiroth's father, the dynamic between Sephiroth and Hojo would lose all its poignancy and power. Every time Sephiroth said something scathing to Hojo or called him a second-rate scientist, we could imagine Hojo secretly rubbing his hands with glee and thinking, Oh, if only you knew what I did to your father, my boy....

Hojo's inability to distinguish between a child and a science experiment, and the fact that he loves both exactly the same, is a crucial factor in the development of one the game's themes, namely, the many ways in which parents fail their children. If Sephiroth were Vincent's son, all of this would be lost, to be replaced by a trite melodrama.
Actually I think having Hojo as a parent is just plain horrific if you think about it. He will think of you as absolutely nothing but an experiment that must meet his every standards so he won't throw you away. I mean if Sephiroth wasn't a success he would have abandon him at the drop of the hat. I don't think at all that pride is positive in fact its actually the worst thing a parent can do is approve of the fact that their child has become a monstrous person. I actually find nothing but sickening horror that anyone would their view own child's life like its one big science project. I don't know about you but its just one big child abuse case that would have gotten Hojo arrested by the Child Care Services in real life.

Although if they did make Vincent his son it would still go with the theme of parents failing their children because he failed to protect his son from Hojo.

As for Lucrecia they already made her more of a bitch in Dirge of Cerberus with the way she treated Vincent.
 
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AKA
The Engineer
#53
Actually I think having Hojo as a parent is just plain horrific if you think about it. He will think of you as absolutely nothing but an experiment that must meet his every standards so he won't throw you away. I mean if Sephiroth wasn't a success he would have abandon him at the drop of the hat. I don't think at all that pride is positive in fact its actually the worst thing a parent can do is approve of the fact that their child has become a monstrous person. I actually find nothing but sickening horror that anyone would their view own child's life like its one big science project.
And that's the point? That being Hojo's son is horrific? And yet that didn't make Sephiroth a complete monster. Becoming a monster is ultimately a choice Sephiroth made for himself. Hojo's character should be incomprehensible to normal human beings. It's part of what makes him such a good villain in the OG. Esspecially when there have been people like him IRL.
I don't know about you but its just one big child abuse case that would have gotten Hojo arrested by the Child Care Services in real life.
It's called The Rule of Drama. Bad stuff happens in stories otherwise there's no story.
Although if they did make Vincent his son it would still go with the theme of parents failing their children because he failed to protect his son from Hojo.
Except that this trope has been done so many times that it's not interesting anymore...
 
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Lord Kesharq

Late night user(coffee!)
AKA
Lostlord, Lewisito
#54
wait who the hell thinks Vincent is Sephiroth father???? :S :S

(seriously what were some people smoking when they were playing FF7 and Hojo gives his speech about helping his son on top of the mako cannon??) :S
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
#55
And that's the point? That being Hojo's son is horrific? And yet that didn't make Sephiroth a complete monster. Becoming a monster is ultimately a choice Sephiroth made for himself. Hojo's character should be incomprehensible to normal human beings. It's part of what makes him such a good villain in the OG. Esspecially when there have been people like him IRL.It's called The Rule of Drama. Bad stuff happens in stories otherwise there's no story.Except that this trope has been done so many times that it's not interesting anymore...
Hojo's archetype of the amoral professor who views his own child as an experiment has become common as well. Although I kind of find the image of Sephiroth strangling his father kind of funny.

Although for Sephiroth I still feel in the OG he was more of a force of nature who had magnificent bastard skills. He becomes even more generic in the sequels as well as he becomes a Diabolus ex Machina whose status as most powerful being in the universe is an informed attribute because he can't stop tormenting/stalking Cloud.

That goes again into the fact that Sephiroth seems to now place his entire existence on being a pain to Cloud. Although its giving ammo for the yaoi fangirls who ship Clephiroth. You know how the saying goes there is a thin line between love and hate so in fan girl logic Sephiroth must really love Cloud.
 
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Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
#56
I think it's totally IC for Hojo to take someone else's son (esp. his opponent's) and to twist that kid into his own in a way that's completely irrecoverable.
I am pretty sure that Hojo would never have allowed Ifalna within a million miles of Sephiroth. Sephiroth already had a tendency to hero-worship Dr Gast (and evidently never learned how he died).
Yeah, having Hojo as a father is a guarantee your childhood will suck. Not to mention the huge amount of emotional, social, and mental damage that will linger into adulthood.
Hojo, however, is fascinated and thrilled by everything his son does; in that sense, he's everybody's dream parent. He never utters a disapproving word about Sephiroth. He is tremendously proud of his son, and Sephiroth's contempt for him seems to give him a perverse pleasure. Why he never told Sephiroth that he was his father is a mystery about which we can only speculate. More mysteriously still, there seems to have been nothing written about Sephiroth's paternity in any of the books he was reading in the basement of the Nibelheim mansion during the week before he burned the town down.

If Vincent were Sephiroth's father, the dynamic between Sephiroth and Hojo would lose all its poignancy and power. Every time Sephiroth said something scathing to Hojo or called him a second-rate scientist, we could imagine Hojo secretly rubbing his hands with glee and thinking, Oh, if only you knew what I did to your father, my boy....

Hojo's inability to distinguish between a child and a science experiment, and the fact that he loves both exactly the same, is a crucial factor in the development of one the game's themes, namely, the many ways in which parents fail their children. If Sephiroth were Vincent's son, all of this would be lost, to be replaced by a trite melodrama.
Can we PLEASE keep in mind that no one knew Sephiroth was Hojo's father? Hojo did not raise Sephiroth. He did not exert his parental rights and pick up Sephiroth from english class, and find out who he hung out with. That's not Hojo. We've been over this.
 

The Twilight Mexican

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AKA
TresDias
#57
We'll have to disagree then. I think it's totally IC for Hojo to take someone else's son (esp. his opponent's) and to twist that kid into his own in a way that's completely irrecoverable.
Isn't that more or less what he attempts with Aerith, who actually was his rival's kid?
 
#58
Hojo is lots of evil things, but he's never really been a liar. He doesn't care enough about other people to deceive them. I don't think there's any reason not to believe him when he says he's Sephy's Dad?

Off topic: Like Mass Effect, this is another game with lots of crazy evil Dads, huh? Dyne, Hojo, President Shinra...Hollander? The only good example is Zack's Dad, who gets about three lines and never interacts with his kid onscreen. There are very few good Dads in fiction, huh.

They definitely have intense loyalty to Rufus. It's mentioned in Episode:Shin-Ra how they feel great gratitude to him for saving them, Veld and Elfe.

And, really, Rufus and the Turks did a lot of crap to each other before that great loyalty set in. Yeah, he was going to have them killed at one point, but they also held him hostage for three years.

That's another thing I have to tip my hat to the Compilation for. They really established an awesome relationship between Rufus and the Turks, where they formed a family of sorts with deep respect and loyalty after doing shitty stuff to each other.



I thought the same at first until it was pointed out to me there's really no other reason for them to already be in Nibelheim when Vincent gets there other than to collect the people. We know they attacked basically the whole world (Wutai, Kalm, Edge, Junon) and took people from all those other locations, so it wouldn't make too much sense for them to just be hanging around Shinra Manor without bothering to pick up the civilians who were right outside too.

Though they did need Vincent for the protomateria, Rosso's dialogue with him when he encounters her seems to imply that she wasn't expecting to see him there, so they probably weren't waiting for him.
They were there for the same reason he was, to search for Lucrecia's notes.

That's mentioned from Reno and Rude's perspectives, they're not speaking for the entire unit. Elena's motivations are 'her pride as a Turk' and her hot boss. Reno's are
Rufus was their patron and now that Reno has helped secure his safety and reunited with the colleagues who he never thought he would see again, Reno was glad that he will have no regrets to leave behind any more.
Rude
Finding out Rufus was still alive gave him courage. Rufus himself was Shinra Company. Whether for the good or bad, Shinra was going to live on. If Shinra was going to live on, so will the Turks. Just thinking about life outside of being a Turk was painful.
That's not personal loyalty to Rufus (except maybe for Reno) It's preservng Shinra so that the Turks might still exist. When Veld shows up later on, Tseng flat tells him that he now owes Shinra nothing.
 
#59
Can we PLEASE keep in mind that no one knew Sephiroth was Hojo's father? Hojo did not raise Sephiroth. He did not exert his parental rights and pick up Sephiroth from english class, and find out who he hung out with. That's not Hojo. We've been over this.
When did I ever say he did? Although the fact is, canonically no one has stated exactly what role Hojo played in Sephiroth's upbringing.

Re Hojo and Aerith: he took her to experiment on her, not, as far as canon goes, to raise her up twisted as some kind of revenge against Gast.
 
#60
Whereas, in what I like to think of as the received version, Hojo and Lucretia are kindred spirits, so wrapped up in the pursuit of science that they are willing to experiment on their own child. This is their sin, and Vincent's sin is that he stood by and allowed it to happen.
Ugh, why do you say all the beautiful words that I wanted to say.

I think the idea that Sephiroth wasn't born out of some love affair between to beautiful and tragic people, but out of some twisted curiosity in the name of scientific pursuit a lot more compelling.

Let's face it, Lucrecia wasn't right in the head either. She ended up regretting it for the rest of her life, but that was only afterwards. As unlikeable as she was, that's what made her Lucrecia, all her flaws and everything. It would be a disservice to her to pretend that she had this wonderful love affair with Vincent.

Anyway, I feel like there's a whole different weight to things when you realized Hojo is the father. Like Sephiroth's absolute disdain for him, or him laughing at the thought of having a father, or how right before the Hojo fight- he was doing all he could to "help" Sephiroth accomplish his goals. Like a real father would, but only in a twisted, demented way.

I think while Vincent-Lucrecia theory made it tragic and all, Hojo-Lucrecia makes us uncomfortable. Because Hojo is a fucker and he's not attractive and he's evil and incapable of love, and in stories they don't get to do things like have "families". And if the very idea of who conceived Sephiroth makes us uneasy, well then I think the feeling they were trying to convey worked.
 
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#61
I think while Vincent-Lucrecia theory made it tragic and all, Hojo-Lucrecia makes us uncomfortable. Because Hojo is a fucker and he's not attractive and he's evil and incapable of love, and in stories they don't get to do things like have "families". And if the very idea of who conceived Sephiroth makes us uneasy, well then I think the feeling they were trying to convey worked.
That's it exactly. And I think it's precisely because the idea makes people uncomfortable that they try to "fix it" - by imagining a real love affair between Lucretia and Vincent, and making Vincent Sephiroth's father. This is more the kind of tragedy that, as you say, people feel comfortable with.
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
#62
That's it exactly. And I think it's precisely because the idea makes people uncomfortable that they try to "fix it" - by imagining a real love affair between Lucretia and Vincent, and making Vincent Sephiroth's father. This is more the kind of tragedy that, as you say, people feel comfortable with.
Then again the game designers tried to do that sort of stuff by making Lucrecia more flirty towards Vincent in the flashbacks in Dirge of Cerberus. Not to mention how the retconned the original reason why Lucrecia chose Hojo over Vincent. In the Ultimanias of the original games Lucrecia chose Hojo because she felt some maternal concern for him. The reason is because she thought he suffered from some inferiority complex from his rivalry with Gast. Dirge of Cerberus changes her reason for picking Hojo to she didn't want to deal with the guilt of causing Vincent's father's death. Not to mention throughout the game they make Lucrecia's feelings towards Vincent more romantic and less one sided on Vincent's part than it was in the OG.

A bit off topic comment. It does make me wonder if Hojo ever planned to have Sephiroth produce offspring. I mean he tried to breed Aerith with Nanaki I wouldn't pass him having plans for his son to reproduce more Jenova based beings.
 
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#63
I wonder in general, how much Hojo interacted with Sephiroth in general. I remember a discussion awhile back on Sephiroth's childhood and how much Shinra controlled it, but I can't help but wonder if Hojo closely watched Sephiroth grow up.

He didn't know anything about his father and he thought his mother was Jenova, and for some reason he was sent to Nibelheim, where there was a huge, suparsekrit door labeled "JENOVA" on it- I wonder if Hojo had a hand in that. It sounds like Hojo I guess.

Also, just wondering, but all of the flashbacks to Lucrecia, Vincent, and Hojo were at the Shinra Mansion. Is the underlying implication that Sephiroth was born in Nibelheim? Because if it is I feel dumb for not picking up on that.
 

Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
#64
I wonder in general, how much Hojo interacted with Sephiroth in general. I remember a discussion awhile back on Sephiroth's childhood and how much Shinra controlled it, but I can't help but wonder if Hojo closely watched Sephiroth grow up.

He didn't know anything about his father and he thought his mother was Jenova, and for some reason he was sent to Nibelheim, where there was a huge, suparsekrit door labeled "JENOVA" on it- I wonder if Hojo had a hand in that. It sounds like Hojo I guess.

Also, just wondering, but all of the flashbacks to Lucrecia, Vincent, and Hojo were at the Shinra Mansion. Is the underlying implication that Sephiroth was born in Nibelheim? Because if it is I feel dumb for not picking up on that.
He's born in nibelheim and the town even feel familiar to him.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#65
They were there for the same reason he was, to search for Lucrecia's notes.
Why would they be doing that? They'd had Lucrecia's fragments in Shelke from the start and already decided they no longer needed them (or Shelke). They knew everything they needed to know about Omega and the protomateria before the game began.

Clem said:
That's mentioned from Reno and Rude's perspectives, they're not speaking for the entire unit. Elena's motivations are 'her pride as a Turk' and her hot boss. Reno's are

...

Rude

...

That's not personal loyalty to Rufus (except maybe for Reno) It's preservng Shinra so that the Turks might still exist. When Veld shows up later on, Tseng flat tells him that he now owes Shinra nothing.
Perhaps you're right that not all of them do, but Tseng speaks as though he feels indebted to Rufus at the end of BC, and Reno definitely does.

Re Hojo and Aerith: he took her to experiment on her, not, as far as canon goes, to raise her up twisted as some kind of revenge against Gast.
I wasn't suggesting that to be his intention. I was just making the point that the narrative already provided him a rival whose child he caused suffering for.
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
#66
Another big miss in Dirge of Cerberus is retconning the reason why Lucrecia married Hojo. They replaced Gast being part of the reason with Lucrecia causing the death of Grimoire Valentine that ultimately made her turn down Vincent. Turning it more into a generic soap opera of wangst on both parties. And making Lucrecia into a emotionally, immature crybaby who has a strong selfish streak and lacks the professionalism that is demanded in her field. Although in my opinion Lucrecia's portrayal can be summed up as they tried to expand her character but they ultimately made her unintentionally unsympathetic.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnintentionallyUnsympathetic
 
#67
Why would they be doing that? They'd had Lucrecia's fragments in Shelke from the start and already decided they no longer needed them (or Shelke). They knew everything they needed to know about Omega and the protomateria before the game began.



Perhaps you're right that not all of them do, but Tseng speaks as though he feels indebted to Rufus at the end of BC, and Reno definitely does.
I thought Shelke's mind only had fragments of the data, not all of it, and with what Vincent brought back from Shinra manor, she could put everything together. But I could be wrong. And anyway, they couldn't let it 'fall into the hands of the WRO'

On the Turks, sure, Tseng and Reno may feel indebted, but my point was that that obligation wouldn't necessarily extend to the rest of the crew.
 

Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
AKA
Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
#68
I've never really liked the Turks 'undying loyalty' to Rufus thing - honestly I think it was included in the compilation as fanservice - They have zero interaction with him in the OG (except maybe Rude in the Northern Crater) and at the end Reno said Shinra was finished - and I don't see how Rufus survival really changed anything when everything had gone to shit. I prefer the Turks as a law unto themselves, not as a bunch of Weylan Smithers types.

So it kind of makes sense to me that Rude (and possibly the others) are institutionalised and can't imagine a civillian life.
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
#69
I've never really liked the Turks 'undying loyalty' to Rufus thing - honestly I think it was included in the compilation as fanservice - They have zero interaction with him in the OG (except maybe Rude in the Northern Crater) and at the end Reno said Shinra was finished - and I don't see how Rufus survival really changed anything when everything had gone to shit. I prefer the Turks as a law unto themselves, not as a bunch of Weylan Smithers types.

So it kind of makes sense to me that Rude (and possibly the others) are institutionalised and can't imagine a civillian life.
So you are saying that loyalty to Rufus was a retcon in the Compilation.
 

Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
AKA
Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
#70
Not so much a retcon, as there would have to have been some mention of it in the OG. I just think it was fanservice plain and simple, as pre compilation fanfics were always throwing Reno, Rufus and Tseng together. So it would have sucked for the fans to not see them interacting somehow. But then Reno's comments in the OG suggested he was ready to go off to Mideel and forget about Shinra, so I feel they really tried to swing it so it would make sense that he/they stuck around.
 
AKA
The Engineer
#71
It's more of an addition of new information then a proper retcon. It's not like the Turks were portrayed as not being loyal to Rufus and now they are. It's just that their relationship was never defined in the OG and now it is.
 
#72
Hmm. Obsidian has a point, but I also like Octo's conceptualization. I like a version of the Turks in which they're more like Praetorian guards: they'll obey Caesar as long as Caesar serves their interests, but they're not above knifing him in the back if a better option comes along, and Rufus knows this. I think Octo's right that the undying loyalty to Rufus stuff was written in to the Compilation when Square realised it was what the fans wanted, just as Lucretia actually being in love with Vincent was written into DoC because the fans wanted it.
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
#73
Hmm. Obsidian has a point, but I also like Octo's conceptualization. I like a version of the Turks in which they're more like Praetorian guards: they'll obey Caesar as long as Caesar serves their interests, but they're not above knifing him in the back if a better option comes along, and Rufus knows this. I think Octo's right that the undying loyalty to Rufus stuff was written in to the Compilation when Square realised it was what the fans wanted, just as Lucretia actually being in love with Vincent was written into DoC because the fans wanted it.
So, we fans have no one to blame but ourselves for a lot of the things in the Compilation.
 

Lord Kesharq

Late night user(coffee!)
AKA
Lostlord, Lewisito
#74
So, we fans have no one to blame but ourselves for a lot of the things in the Compilation.
From the sounds of it, yep lol.


Btw do we really offically know that Shinra are "finished" i mean in the OG they pretty much controlled everything, and even after all that has happend i cant believe that Shinra could have lost everything, i mean they had control of a army, most of the first contient you get to explore in FF7 is under there control, they must have had tonnes of money saved in backs ect ect...surely good old shinra are not compleaty finished yet?
 
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