What Rank Is The Turks?

[T@ctic]

What Rank Are The Turks?

Are the SOLDIERS higher than the Turks? I need to know for a review I'm doing.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

One gets the impression from Crisis Core and Before Crisis in particular that Turks have more clout -- whether that be actual administrative authority or just an unwritten rule -- than regular members of SOLDIER. By the same token, though, Lazard, former executive in charge of SOLDIER, had the authority to order Cissnei to spy on Zack.

So, I would say Turks "outrank" regular members of SOLDIER, but all executives outrank all Turks.

 

[T@ctic]

One gets the impression from Crisis Core and Before Crisis in particular that Turks have more clout -- whether that be actual administrative authority or just an unwritten rule -- than regular members of SOLDIER. By the same token, though, Lazard, former executive in charge of SOLDIER, had the authority to order Cissnei to spy on Zack.

So, I would say Turks "outrank" regular members of SOLDIER, but all executives outrank all Turks.

that could make sense. because in before crisis shinra (whom was completely gay for sephiroth) and ordered for AVALANCHE to be annihilated by sephiroth when he got shot. and that was AFTER the turks had failed. so i guess only 1st classes outrank the turks? :T

 

[Obsidian Fire]

^^Probably.

It might also have to do with how SOLDIERs are recruited vs. the way Turks are recruited. SOLDIERs volunteer for the job and Shin-Ra trains them, while the Turks are recruited for skills they already have in most cases. The Turks also have access to a lot more sensitive material then and SOLDIER does so Shin-Ra has to be more sure of the Turks' loyalty then SOLDIERs' loyalty. Or rather, because SOLDIERs volunteer, Shin-Ra can't be sure of their loyalties so SOLDIERs don't have as high of a clearance as the Turks do.

As the Turks are more loyal to each other then they are to Shin-Ra, this obviously didn't work as intended...

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

SOLDIERs volunteer for the job and Shin-Ra trains them,

It's not really that simple. One must also pass a mental examination before being allowed to be recruited, so as to make sure they don't succumb to Mako poisoning. Cloud's insecurity caused him to fail the exam and not make it into SOLDIER, and he gets Mako poisoning when Hojo submits him to the same experiment a SOLDIER is submitted to 2 years later because he's still insecure. It's not "volunteer then train", it's "volunteer, take a mental exam and if you pass, you get subjected to experiments and then get trained".

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Some folks get voluntold rather than volunteering. One of the first chapters of Before Crisis involves forcibly recruiting candidates.

 

[espritduo]

SOLDIER's, as powerful and elite as they are, are just that - soldiers in an army. Turks are like the secret police, special agents, 007's of Shinra. They go on top secret missions, play spy games, ferret out information, and do assassinations and other hush-hush stuff. Both are just taking orders from higher ups, but the Turks are more specialized and versatile, and more trusted with secret operations and info. Like real secret agents, the Turks don't really have an identifiable "rank", and pretty much are given carte blanche in terms of authority, as long as it falls within the scope of whatever mission they're assigned. "License to kill" and all that. SOLDIERs are just weapons, tools, muscle. Shinra points them at a target, and they nuke it.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

espritduo hit it on the head. SOLDIER and the regular Shinra army are subject to a strict military chain of command. While SOLDIERS can be given a broad range of authority and power depending on what they're granted/situation, the Turks totally exist outside the chain of command.

While Lazard can straight up tell the Turks what to since he's an Executive, on the other hand, say, Zack or even Sephiroth for that matter would only have the authority to tell a Turk what to do if they were specifically granted that authority in a specific situation; i.e. Sephiroth gets orders from the President to not let anyone through a door, Turk or not.

 

[Abortedj]

Well it is mentioned that the Turks are paid better than solders, and generally speaking more money means more rank.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Well it is mentioned that the Turks are paid better than solders, and generally speaking more money means more rank.

It's not necessarily that linear. Most equivalent professions period pay better than being a soldier, and I'm willing to be that even applies to SOLDIER. Like real world governments, higher paid positions are usually given to agents/jobs outside the military chain of command. The relatively lower (but still appreciable) pay of military personnel is offset by the numerous standard of living benefits of serving.

In a governmental aspect, more pay equals more rank within the military, yes, however more pay often just means they're not in the military, period.

 

[Abortedj]

It's not necessarily that linear. Most equivalent professions period pay better than being a soldier, and I'm willing to be that even applies to SOLDIER. Like real world governments, higher paid positions are usually given to agents/jobs outside the military chain of command. The relatively lower (but still appreciable) pay of military personnel is offset by the numerous standard of living benefits of serving.

In a governmental aspect, more pay equals more rank within the military, yes, however more pay often just means they're not in the military, period.

That is true. However Shin-ra isn't a government. It is a corporation that has taken on government like qualities.

 

[T@ctic]

Well it is mentioned that the Turks are paid better than solders, and generally speaking more money means more rank.

maybe the turks get more money because they need to do more secret/dangerous things that should be "hush hush" to the public. maybe thats why sephiroth was a perfect idol for not only SOLDIER, but for how shinra wants to be promoted. since he was SOLDIER he could so things more publicly and he was - well, excuse me - a bit of a gorgeous guy and he was the successful project of shinra. tseng is as good as sephiroth as for as he humanly can turks wise, but he is much more secretive.

so

1. he was SOLDIER, and SOLDIERS do things more public

2. he was a perfect idol for shinra's ideal for a SOLDIER.

3. shinra wanted to show off their perfect project.

anyway i think turks and SOLDIERS are at the same rank, but do things differently. SOLDIER= public missions turks="hush hush" missions.

both of them have to be exceptionally smart, can hold their own, and require a huge amount of loyalty.

SOLDIER's, as powerful and elite as they are, are just that - soldiers in an army. Turks are like the secret police, special agents, 007's of Shinra. They go on top secret missions, play spy games, ferret out information, and do assassinations and other hush-hush stuff. Both are just taking orders from higher ups, but the Turks are more specialized and versatile, and more trusted with secret operations and info. Like real secret agents, the Turks don't really have an identifiable "rank", and pretty much are given carte blanche in terms of authority, as long as it falls within the scope of whatever mission they're assigned. "License to kill" and all that. SOLDIERs are just weapons, tools, muscle. Shinra points them at a target, and they nuke it.

well explained.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

That is true. However Shin-ra isn't a government. It is a corporation that has taken on government like qualities.

It's a corporation that became the government. There's no other way to put it.

 

[Drax]

The turks are covert, but not as powerful as SOLDIERS.

So Turks outrank SOLDIER with clearances and perks, because they need to keep SOLDIER in check through Big Brother tactics.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

There are a lot more SOLDIERs than there are Turks, if we count all three classes.

 

[Rydeen]

The old hierarchical chart implied that the Turks, as they were under Heidegger, were of a higher rank than SOLDIER, although the omega seemed to insist otherwise. I'm thinking that before Lazard's/Veld's exile, and perhaps under Heidegger as well, they might have just fell below their respective executives without any technical superiority between departments, just Shinra > Rufus > Board of Directors > everyone else.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Both those charts say the same thing, though. Just that the Turks and SOLDIER both fall under Heidegger. It's two separate lines running to SOLDIER and the Turks from him in both cases. There isn't a line running from the Turks to SOLDIER. Though Crisis Core does give the impression that Tseng has authority to direct Zack.

Still, it's in the carrying out of missions assigned to Zack/both of them, so it may have less to do with a direct chain of command per se and more to do with Tseng being in charge of particular operations to which Zack has also been assigned.

 

[Rydeen]

The first chart initially struck me as placing the Turks above SOLDIER, albeit ambiguous since Heidegger was linked directly to both departments, but the second one confirmed to me that the vertical placement was just utilized for good design rather than to indicate status.

The chain of command between departments seems pretty nonexistent (in favor of each head trying to gain the most support from the President). The Turks naturally have a great deal more power over the inner workings of the company due to access to hidden files and control of intelligence. I assume that if the mission involves careful espionage and little brute force, and the actions of the SOLDIER are dependent upon the Turk's results, the SOLDIER submits to the Turk. If there is little collaboration required and the departments are operating irrespective of each other, they act as completely separate entities following their respective leaders, and if there is a conflict of interest they take orders directly from the President. And Heidegger's original position of commander of the ordinary Military would explain his de facto superiority to the other executives in belligerent operations and why, upon the absence of leadership, the Turks and SOLDIER defaulted to him. And the company ultimately became more centralized when Veld and Lazard were terminated.

 

[Abortedj]

It's a corporation that became the government. There's no other way to put it.

Is there a source that gives any details as to how they function as a government? Going off of what I remember of FF7, and Crisis Core, we don't really have any details. Do they have a tax system? Do the people have any say in whats going on with Shin-Ra? On the corporate side, does Shin-Ra have stock holders? All we seem to have is that Shin-Ra somehow became an ultra-monopoly, and that apparently equates to horribly ill defined world domination.

Does any source give us more than that?

 

[Rydeen]

Taxes, for all intents and purposes, likely exist in the form of monopolistic control of the price of electricity. After the destruction of Sector 7 and in need of more revenue for the neo-Midgar project, the President ordered a rate hike on Mako.

 

[Abortedj]

Ok, been three days. So no canon sources have any answers then?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

There's what Ryvius mentioned, as well as that Shin-Ra controls the military/police. Mayor Domino is also said to have no real political power.

 

[Abortedj]

There's what Ryvius mentioned, as well as that Shin-Ra controls the military/police. Mayor Domino is also said to have no real political power.

Ok. But are the military/police other organizations that Shin-Ra controls, or are they subdivisions of the company? Are the militry and the police even two separate entities? The whole power structure seems to be rather ill defined.

 

[Octo]

It is ill defined, just like how theres only like 10 towns on the planet, I dont think they thought it through enough. Either way, no other government is mentioned.

I almost get the feeling that civilisation hadn't really progressed much past a sort of tribe/village set up rather than nations before Shinra got in control. That seemed to be the set up in Corel when the village leaders were debating on whether to have a reactor or not. I guess Shinra got too powerful. Wutai was maybe a little more organised but still too weak.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The military and police are a subdvision of Shin-Ra. Heidegger directs it as the Head of Public Safety, just like Reeve is in charge of building Midgar as the Head of Urban Development. Shin-Ra *is* the government.

And, yeah, one gets the impression that things are the way Octo describes. In Case of Denzel, Reeve suggests that Denzel contact his local leaders if he wants to help out rather than trying to join the WRO.

The idea of there being local leaders speaks to that sort of tribe/village set-up. That's probably how things were before Shin-Ra grew so rapidly and took over the towns that would become Midgar.