When you first played through you thought...

[ForceStealer]

I think every Final Fantasy makes a lot more sense the second time through. The cynic will say that's because of convoluted plots but I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that the games are long, especially your first time playing one. It's easy to forget connections earlier in the story that was 20 hours ago in game and maybe weeks or months ago in real time.

 

[Octo]

Yeah, I think it was only since coming online and reading all the ultimania info that i figured out what the hell was going on.

Like I still thought Jenova was controlling Sephirioth, also I didn't think the Sephiroth you encounter up until the northern crater was actually Jenova.

 

[Novus]

Actually I didn't understand the story. But I understood the basic plot.
The whole life-stream section is filled with Cloud's childhood flashbacks, its very much set out for the layman, I don't think they could have made it simpler without it being patronising.

I didn't get however that Sephiroth was half a torso that had rebuilt itself at the Northern crater. All of that went over my 9 year old brain. Although most adults think LOST is confusing so games involving magic crystals which summon monsters from the moon revealed in flashbacks where you time travel into the brain of your young father would go way over there heads too. (FFVIII)
(Shrugs), it's fantasy, this is why I never faulted the data-logs of FFXIII. All the games require extra reading.

 

[Splintered]

Yeah, I think it was only since coming online and reading all the ultimania info that i figured out what the hell was going on.

Like I still thought Jenova was controlling Sephirioth, also I didn't think the Sephiroth you encounter up until the northern crater was actually Jenova.

Same, I didn't know the resolution of the Jenova-Sephiroth thing until tls, I still thought Jenova was mostly in control of Sephiroth, although Sephiroth was more of a willing participant. A part of me wishes I never knew that Sephiroth dominated Jenova, I liked the ambiguity.

 

[null]

The whole life-stream section is filled with Cloud's childhood flashbacks, its very much set out for the layman, I don't think they could have made it simpler without it being patronising.

Not to mention back on the Highwind he explains exactly what he is to the team.

Not that I'm criticizing anyone for missing the obvious. I didn't find Vincent on my first playthrough because I couldn't tell his door from the wall.

 

[Novus]

Same, I didn't know the resolution of the Jenova-Sephiroth thing until tls, I still thought Jenova was mostly in control of Sephiroth, although Sephiroth was more of a willing participant. A part of me wishes I never knew that Sephiroth dominated Jenova, I liked the ambiguity.

Well the thing about that is that a line after Aerith's death quotes Sephiroth as Jenova for little to no reason. I suppose the line being said is supposed to be uttered by Jenova-Life but the words are being telepathically to the dying Jenova-Life by Sephiroth from the Great Cave. Which means no one who hasn't played the game twice will get it.
Then there is the Icicle inn section, where it directly states that Jenova appeared as dead brothers and mothers (sorry if my paraphrasing is wrong). So that implies it was probably talking then, and that would mean its a sentient thing.
So why would anyone presume Jenova was suddenly brain dead two thousand years later if all the other organs are working perfectly.
Correct me if I'm wrong about the Icicle inn part and Jenova never was conscious, as revealed by some obscure title I haven't played/read.

So yeah its hard to get it all on a first playthrough.

 

[Abortedj]

Well I seem to have struck a cord here. But to defend what I said. First we don't know how reliable the statements of Cloud our, given we see him tell stories several times that are not entirely true, and have no reason to assume anything he says after that point are the whole truth. Secondly the the translation we got for FF7 wasn't exactly perfect. Thirdly, there is just enough information given that it can be interrupted in almost any way, but not quite enough to be definitive. I am only referring to the information in FF7, and not any of the supplementary sources that have been released over the 16 years since.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I can understand having doubts about Cloud, but following the Lifestream sequence under Mideel, we know his mind isn't mucked up anymore. Not only that, though, what he says matches up with Zangan's letter, the flashback that reveals Zack's death, and the experiment logs in the Shinra Mansion basement. You aren't just going off what Cloud says.

I could almost understand doubting Hojo's claims of Sephiroth's paternity, as many did, since Hojo's ineptitude is well-documented, and because the reveal of Cloud's actual reality seems to further discredit the mad scientist, but Cloud's explanation of what was done to him is sufficiently corroborated in-game.

 

[null]

Consider this: the game tells us something is wrong with Cloud. He blacks out and hears voices. He meets himself at the Honeybee Inn. Tifa slips up and drops hints. Aerith recognizes her ex-boyfriend in him. Cloud's story doesn't add up. Something is going on and the player has good reason to doubt what comes out of his mouth.

But after the Lifestream? That all stops. The game no longer goes out of its way to undermine Cloud's credibility. Sephiroth stops showing up in his mind. He has nothing left to hide, no pride to protect, and doesn't need to impress the girl. All the facts are resolved with no inconsistencies and it follows a textbook story development arc. Why shouldn't the player believe him? I guess it's possible that he remains an unreliable source of information, but is there anything concrete to back it up?

The translation was ugly but I can't remember anything that looked both contradictory and poorly translated. Examples?

 

[Novus]

Well I seem to have struck a cord here. But to defend what I said. First we don't know how reliable the statements of Cloud our, given we see him tell stories several times that are not entirely true, and have no reason to assume anything he says after that point are the whole truth. Secondly the the translation we got for FF7 wasn't exactly perfect. Thirdly, there is just enough information given that it can be interrupted in almost any way, but not quite enough to be definitive. I am only referring to the information in FF7, and not any of the supplementary sources that have been released over the 16 years since.

Oh right, I see.

Well if that's your reason you might have trouble watching a lot of movies with these sort of characters.

The Machinist, Shutter Island, Memento ect, all rely of the audience having confidence in the film to tell them the 'truth' about their characters when the time comes, even if they have laid out false flashbacks prior to this.
I can't actually think of a film that attempts to get the audience to lose this confidence but if it exists it's not going to look like FF7.

FF7 actually answers every in-universe question it raises.
The only one that comes to mind, is Lucrecia's secret cave. And hey they tackled that fully in FF7's only game sequel.

 

[Marcus]

at the time I was rather young, I think 11 or 12 years old, so at the time I had no idea how to play the game really, I had a small grasp on the combat but materia, accesoires and story were all confusing. At that age I purely played the game and other FF titles purely because I enjoyed the combat system it wasn't till I started playing FFX I started to understand how to play the games properly.

 

[Abortedj]

Oh right, I see.

Well if that's your reason you might have trouble watching a lot of movies with these sort of characters.

The Machinist, Shutter Island, Memento ect, all rely of the audience having confidence in the film to tell them the 'truth' about their characters when the time comes, even if they have laid out false flashbacks prior to this.
I can't actually think of a film that attempts to get the audience to lose this confidence but if it exists it's not going to look like FF7.

FF7 actually answers every in-universe question it raises.
The only one that comes to mind, is Lucrecia's secret cave. And hey they tackled that fully in FF7's only game sequel.

I don't think you have an understanding of the difference between movie and game as story telling mediums. But I do find your naive notions about them "cute".

Got some screenshots to prove that "everything" is answered? I realized the such a task might prove difficult given the length of the game. However, I am sure your up to it.

To get this back on topic. I kinda hoped there would be a way to upgrade the basic weapons of the characters. You are forces you to keep them in your inventory (to prevent continuity issues in cutscenes), so I thought you might find someway to make them worth having around from a gameplay standpoint. Having to keep them really bugged the hell out of me on my first play through.

 

[Poe-Lantern]

Can I just quickly ask, when was the last time you had played the game? The original one.

 

[Novus]

I don't think you have an understanding of the difference between movie and game as story telling mediums. But I do find your naive notions about them "cute".

This is a complete non sequitor. I'm clearly referring specifically to FF7 and Cloud's character arc. Your translation of the text is off kilter to everyone else.
The burden of proof is on you dude.
EDIT: The movie examples btw, were there as aid not to be confrontational or whatever.

EDIT 2: Interestingly though, about game/movie differences; Shademp or some other ripper will have to provide the code to when it actually occurs, but in the last act of the game a man in a black cape appears in a Junon store.
This instance cements the general truth of what happened with the reunion and Cloud, so yeah the plot is integrated into the general exploration too.

The results remain the same.

 

[Novus]

Edit: embedded in above post.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Both game and film are largely cinematic mediums and make use of many of the same storytelling devices. For that matter, in any medium that has A Big Reveal toward the end of a composition, presenting a correction of prior information that it calls "that's what happened" (quote from Tifa during the Lifestream sequence, by the way), the audience is expected to believe it.

That's just storytelling -- it isn't reality, where any number of possibilities apply. FFVII is a fictional series of events with an intended meaning behind it all by its creators. Given that the metatext that followed years later matched up with what several of us here had already figured out with just the content of the original game, it stands to reason you are the one mistaken here.

Also: The director, Yoshinori Kitase, had wanted to be a filmmaker before finding success in making games instead. It more than stands to reason he would be using the language of the medium he loved.

Now, if you still have specific questions that you don't believe are answered, raise them here, raise them now, and I will personally provide text and/or screenshots that resolves them. Cloud's identity would actually be extremely simple to prove.

 

[Abortedj]

The burden of proof is on you dude.

You made the statement, so it is yours to prove, not mine. If you have no proof, or are unwilling to provide any, then I guess we are done here.

Also to respond to Poe, the last play through I did was sometime in '08 or '09. Not really a huge fan of 7 (or 8 for that matter), but I was doing a play through of the entire series.

Thanks kindly Hawkeye, if you would be so kind as to post screen shots, I would be very interested to see them. It has admittedly been a while since my last go on 7, and I am honestly curious what the sources (other than Cloud's own words) have to say about his history, traumas, and abuses.

 

[Novus]

The burden of proof is on me to locate every answer to every answered mystery presented to us in the game? Do you want me to post the full game transcript or something considering I believe everything to be answered? The game is a rough beast, but all of the information is there.
Post the questions you think were unanswered and I will provide you the material proving it was answered, okay? And for the record what you consider to be a mystery I might not, so (me) actually going ahead and compiling them for you would be a fruitless display of masochism; especially if you’re not a fan of the game anyway(shrugs).
Oh and no when I said burden of truth, I meant for you to prove that the narrative is still designed for you to doubt Cloud after the Lifestream events. You have the second half of Disk 2 and Disk 3 to find any material that is designed to make us doubt Cloud’s version of events.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Thanks to the magic of YouTube, we can do better than screenshots. This video begins during the Lifestream sequence (watch it from the beginning if you need a refresher), and Cloud's explanation about what happened to him begins around the 15:30 mark:

Cloud
"I never was in SOLDIER."

"I made up the stories about what happened to me five years ago, about being in SOLDIER."

"I left my village looking for glory, but never made it into SOLDIER......"

"I was so ashamed of being so weak; then I heard this story from my friend Zack..."

"And I created an illusion of myself made up of what I had seen in my life......"

"And I continued to play the charade as if it were true."

Barret
"Illusion, huh...?
Pretty damn strong for a 'lusion, I'd say."

Cloud
"I'm physically built like someone in SOLDIER."

"Hojo's plan to clone Sephiroth wasn't that difficult."

"It was just the same procedure they use when creating members of SOLDIER."

"You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy."

"Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells......"

"For better or worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER."

"It has nothing to do with the Jenova Reunion."

"But weak people......like me, get lost in the whole thing."

So the things that need support here are the following:
1) Cloud is physically like someone in SOLDIER
2) Cloud, as well as the other "Sephiroth clones," are exposed to mako energy and injected with Jenova's cells
3) Members of SOLDIER receive the same treatment described in Point 2
4) Despite the Reunion theory's experiment involving subjects who received the SOLDIER procedure, there's a fundamental difference between them
5) Weak-willed people "get lost" in the SOLDIER procedure

Point 1 is pretty much proven from the moment the game begins. Cloud is physically superior to anyone who isn't a SOLDIER, and people remark that he has the "mako eyes" that members of SOLDIER also carry.

Point 2 is proven by the following video (ignore that Cloud was named "El Boner" in this person's playthrough):

The flashback with Zack shows he and Cloud being exposed to mako. The Escapee Reports read at the back of the library after the flashback further detail that Mako Radiation Therapy was used, and that Jenova's cells were involved as well. The point is also made that Cloud had a reaction to Jenova's cells related to the experiment while Zack did not (that's important to Points 4 and 5).

The mako exposure element of Point 3 is proven by quite a lot, most obviously the "mako eyes" that SOLDIERs have, and Sephiroth's remarks from Nibelheim about SOLDIERs being exposed to mako. The Jenova cell element of Point 3 is proven by the owner of the accessory shop in Junon, who mentions being a former member of SOLDIER, and who -- as of Disc 2 onward -- feels compelled to don a black cloak like the "Sephiroth clones" despite such attire being out of season:

(go to the 3:40 mark)

Unlike the black cloaked "clones," though, he isn't forced against his will to go to the Reunion. The effect of Sephiroth's call on him goes no further than making him dress like this. That he is a former member of SOLDIER and isn't forced to the Reunion like the other black cloaks is also relevant to Points 4 and 5.

Also related to this topic, Lucrecia -- who has Jenova cells inside her body as well -- mentions that she has been having dreams of Sephiroth, and wonders if he may be alive:

(2:45 mark)

So we have Lucrecia dreaming of Sephiroth and a former member of SOLDIER feeling compelled to dress up like the experiments from Nibelheim in the same time frame that those with Jenova cells felt the call of the Reunion.

It's also noted that Cloud himself felt the call. Hojo implies that he should in the 5:25-5:50 area of this video:

Hojo also mentions a "certain hypothesis" (the Jenova Reunion Theory).

Sephiroth himself later asks Cloud if he's going to the Reunion around the 2:10 mark in this video:

Later still, Cloud acknowledges that he wasn't just chasing Sephiroth -- but actually being summoned by him:

(around the 19:20 mark)

Moving on now to Points 4 and 5, start watching that last video around the 17:00 mark for a refresher on what the Jenova Reunion Theory was all about. As you can see, it was about proving Hojo's theory that, once dismembered, Jenova would seek to reunite.

In order to test this, members of SOLDIER couldn't be used, as they do not lose their autonomy when exposed to mako and Jenova (recall that Zack did not have the desired reaction according to the Escapee Reports, while Cloud did). Though both SOLDIER and Hojo's experiment used the same procedure on the subjects involved, SOLDIER requires people of exceptionally strong mind (e.g. a self-confident, congenial guy like Zack rather than an insecure introvert like Cloud; someone okay with who they are, not desiring to be someone else) who can handle the adverse side-effects rather than losing their sense of self. For the Reunion experiment, Hojo wanted ordinary people who actually would "get lost in the whole thing" and be taken over by Jenova's Reunion instinct.

That being the case, when Hojo went to Nibelheim following Sephiroth's massacre of the village, he had the survivors (Cloud and Zack included) rounded up for use in his Reunion experiment. Recall Zangan's letter to Tifa:

(around the 0:45 mark)

Assembled, these pieces paint a very clear picture.

I can certainly understand lingering confusion from a first playthrough, but here we are 16 years later. Not just the story, but even the game code has been dissected backward and forward -- there's not much in the way of mysteries left.

 

[Abortedj]

Well that is considerably more effort than I thought anyone would go to. I stand corrected on Cloud. Thank you kindly for the information, and the effort Hawkeye.

I do have another question. I head once that FF7 share some connection to Xenogears, I don't remember the details, but I remember hearing it. Anyone else here ever hear something like that? I realize it is a bit off topic for the thread, more so as Xenogears came out after FF7. Could of just been a fanboy talking out his ass, but I figure if anyone would know, they would be here.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yeah, there are a couple of connections to Xeno, actually. The first is the jibberish Cloud mutters while in the clinic at Mideel right before Ultima Weapon's attack. He actually says "Xenogears" there, though the original translation had him mutter it as "zeno...... gias......" The PC version's translation corrected it to "Xeno......gears......" though. This portion of the script was also written by Masato Kato, who had a hand in the writing of "Xenogears."

The second connection is a little looser, but I think it's there. The dialogue between Cloud and Tifa after they spend the night together under the Highwind (another scene written by Kato) is very similar to the dialogue between Fei and Elly after the night they have sex in "Xenogears."

 

[null]

Xenogears... now there's a game I could not get my head around in one playthrough. That plot was original gangsta at stuffing you in a pillowcase, throwing you in the trunk and dropping you off five miles down the road.

 

[Abortedj]

Interesting. Been wondering about that for a long time.

 

[PhantomSephiroth]

Got any screen shots to prove that? I have looked on a number of occasions, and Barret seems to be alone in the world.

Reminds me of some other guy in XIII

 

[Abortedj]

This isn't something I thought on my first play through, but rather something I think we I saw the first screen shots of the game. That at some point someone would make an "overcompensation" joke about Cloud and his grossly impractical sword(s). However, I don't think that ever happens during the game.