Which minor character should be given the ascended extra treatment?

Unit-01

Might be around.
AKA
Sic, Anthony
You have all put forth good suggestions. But what about bringing back some of the named SOLDIERS from Crisis Core? Kunsel and Lexiere. Even if they got time in CC, it'd be the coolest thing too see them in the Remake to learn of their fate.

Also how about Johnny? Do we already have enough about him or should we get more?
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
Lucrecia deserves more love. If anything, most of the issues people have with her are probably a matter of execution. It shouldn't be too hard to make her more likable in the remake if they put some effort into doing that.

Why does she have to be likeable? Hojo and Lucretia decided to do scientific experiments on their own baby. They were scientists, which means they knew what they were doing, and they decided to implant non-human genetic material into their baby, who was defenceless and couldn't consent. Nobody has ever tried to defend Hojo for this. Why should Lucretia be made more likeable? The only way she could be made more likeable would be by depriving her of agency and making her into Hojo's victim, and I don't think that would be an improvement.

I actually like this the more you say it. I think really we're only told to like Lucrecia because she's Vincent's unrequited love but there's nothing saying that love, unrequited to begin with (until DoC) had to be good. She was kinda standoffish in the OG and only wanted to know what happened to Sephiroth, understandably so. I think if they stuck closer to that it'd be better.

In DoC she starts to lose her agency through some of the cutscenes with Hojo and although it makes her more tragic and starting to be likeable because you want to hate him more, it's retconning her.

I actually think the complete opposite. In the OG she's an 'assistant' to Professor Gast, in Dirge she's a scientist at the top of her field. In the OG she passively stays silent in the 'she and I are both scientists' scene, in Dirge she joins in on slapping Vince down for his presumption, is shown arguing with Hojo, performs experiments that work out, and correctly anticipated the end of the world. She's instrumental in Dirge to Vincent's survival of Hojo's experiments, and her records save his life again over the course of the game. She also has a better reason to seal herself away because there is actual redemption involved. I know nobody likes Dirge, but I genuinely thought it did a great job in making Lucrecia neither a completely guiltless victim or an irredeemably evil monster.

Don't forget " You were the reason I survived."

I'd like to see more of the Highwind Crew.

And there's a lot of potential for the sequence in disguise in Junon, that army officer goes to a lot of lengths to keep you out of trouble.
 

Starling

Pro Adventurer
Lucrecia deserves more love. If anything, most of the issues people have with her are probably a matter of execution. It shouldn't be too hard to make her more likable in the remake if they put some effort into doing that.

Why does she have to be likeable? Hojo and Lucretia decided to do scientific experiments on their own baby. They were scientists, which means they knew what they were doing, and they decided to implant non-human genetic material into their baby, who was defenceless and couldn't consent. Nobody has ever tried to defend Hojo for this. Why should Lucretia be made more likeable? The only way she could be made more likeable would be by depriving her of agency and making her into Hojo's victim, and I don't think that would be an improvement.
From what canon's showed, it would seem that her relationship with Hojo was abusive and that she wasn't in a good place emotionally when she decided to go along with the project, not to mention she's aware the whole thing was a mistake and doesn't think she deserves to be considered Sephiroth's mother for her role in it. That makes for a far more sympathetic character than the sociopath who's ruined countless lives with several years worth of experiments and is directly or indirectly responsible for just about every other problem in the OG and compilation. Despite that, I keep getting the impression the main opinion regarding Lucrecia is that she's unsympathetic either from going along with Hojo for lack of morals or being too stupid to realize it was a bad idea. While I get that DoC wasn't all that great with the execution, I still think she deserved better, as a character with the potential to be interesting and more involved in the plot than she ends up being. I never really hear anyone talk about the whole thing while accounting for what tends to happen in abusive relationships, despite how relevant it would be in this regard. No one's obligated to like her more than any other character but the least they can do is give her a chance.

Expanding on her role and showing what she was like outside of those circumstances would help, such as stuff she's done before the project. I'm not a fan of DoC's Grimoire and Chaos thing and would rather they gave her something with Gast, which could've led into the start of the Jenova project and provided some good exposition in that regard. That way we'd get more on Gast, Lucrecia and maybe Hojo before his crazy got so obvious, as well as some stuff on the early days of Shinra and such.

Now for the other stuff in the thread, as much as I'd love to see more Zangan, they'll have to figure out how to do that without causing problems with his knowing Zack and Cloud were taken by Shinra and that Cloud wasn't a SOLDIER. As such, he wouldn't really be able to show up in person until after the big reveals, which would be late game. He could still benefit from mentions and maybe getting more to in the Nibelheim flashback if they expand on that.

I second giving Godo more development, especially since Wutai as a whole could use more, having been its own thing before Shinra occupied it and presumably having its own separate culture.

I'm not really sure what they could do with Johnny, since his main appeal was probably due to the translation trainwreck that consisted half the stuff involving him.
 
Is there evidence in the OG to suggest she was in an abusive relationship?

I have general misgivings about using the "she was in an abusive relationship" trope in fiction to excuse all the bad things a woman does. I feel that it denies them agency, almost like saying, "All women are nice and good really, so nice and good that they assume all men are nice and good, and then the bad men force them to do bad things." I would prefer her to be written as not being in an abusive relationship and freely choosing to experiment on her child, then belatedly coming to the realisation that she made a huge mistake of her own free will.

Fortunately the game also offers us Scarlet, who is clearly evil just because she likes it that way.
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
Here's what I deduce about the Cetra from the information in the game: they looked exactly like ordinary humans because they were the ancestors of ordinary humans. Ordinary humans are descended from the Cetra who decided to settle down, and who, in given up their wandering ways, lost their connection with the planet. Ifalna is 100% Cetra and she looked exactly like a human being, because the Cetra weren't actually another species, they were just human beings who could commune with the Planet.
I'm not quite sure the bolded bits are really canon. The bit about humans being Cetra who lost their connection with the Lifestream because they stopped wandering only comes from Sephiroth after he's gone crazy from reading the material in Shinra Mansion which we know contains at least some false information. So unless that gets corroborated from some other source, I'm not automatically assuming that's what's going on. And Ifalna says nothing about human-Cetra disagreements. Ifalna also says that the communication with the Planet isn't a two-way street. The Cetra can hear what is going on in the Lifestream, but they can't talk back to it.
All those crazy, special powers Shinra thought the Cetra had were entirely in Shinra's imagination. The Cetra didn't have any special powers, except for the power to talk to the planet. And I think it's implied in the game that, in fact, any human being can communicate with the planet, if they dedicate themselves to this task. The cry of the planet is not inaudible to Cloud, Tifa and the others when they're at Bugenhagen's lab. They recognise it as the sound of a creature in pain.
It's highly likely that there's very little difference between Cetra and normal humans. In fact, I'd go far enough to say that the difference has more to do with the knowledge the Cetra have of the Planet rather then any genetic difference between Cetra and human. Quite simply, humans don't know what they're capable of doing due to information loss.
The struggle for dominance between nomadic societies (Cetra) and settled agricultural societies (humans) is a recurring theme in human history.
Are we sure this is what was going on? The Cetra had a least one major city that we know of and making it easier to listen to the Lifestream and view past events were built into it's infrastructure. Also, the source of this is Hojo via a crazy Sephrioth before he's pushed into the Lifestream. Given how it's from the same data that assumes Jenova is a Cetra, I'm thinking it's highly suspect.

Personally, I think it's more likely that Jenova's decimation of the Cetra was what led to the Cetra "turning" into humans. Ifalna confirms that after Jenova turned the original Cetra group that went to the Northern Crater into monsters, it then left the Northern Crater and infected the other Cetra clans around the Planet and that only a small number of Cetra survived to seal Jenova. Which more then likely leads to the loss of a lot of the Cetra's information/history and puts them into survival mode, both of which are not idea situations to pass higher concept information down as opposed to more practical information. There's also the fact that the Lifestream itself is busy healing the Northern Crater so who knows what it was doing in the years after Jenova and before Mako reactors were made.

OT: I'd like to see more of the Gods of Wutai. There the only people who we see turn into something non-human that can turn back into normal humans in the entire game. Only nobody (including Yuffie) thinks this is odd or something to be worried about. I'd like to know if this was just a game mechanic gimmick or not. Although it probably isn't just a game mechanic. It turns out the word translated as "Gods" is the same term translated as "Sages" in the Naruto series. They'd make for a good (if cliche) contrast to everyone who got non-human transformations though science as opposed though training.
 
Good points. TBH it's a while since I looked at this material in any depth, but didn't Aerith confirm that the Cetra were wandering people? I seem to remember the implication was that the ones who became human settled down before the Calamity and not after or during, but maybe it was during.

I wouldn't go so far as to suggest that I'm sure that there was a conflict between nomadic Cetra and settled humans, I was just pointing out that it's a really ancient theme, half historical, half mythical, that is found world-wide, and usually it's the nomads who are considered to be in closer touch with the divine. There do seem to be quite a few Jewish references in FFVII, like Sephiroth...

According to the Jewish Virtual Library, the Sephirot is "ten creative forces that intervene between the infinite, unknowable God ("Ein Sof") and our created world. Through these powers God created and rules the universe, and it is by influencing them that humans cause God to send to Earth forces of compassion or severe judgment." aka the Tree of Life.

So for me I see this reference between a nomadic people in touch with the divinity of the planet and a settled people who have lost that connection, but of course it may not have been done deliberately.
 
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SeaDragon

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Sjödraken
I would not mind if they show more about Zangan, Dio or Godo. They deserve more development.
...We all want more Big Bro.
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
Is there evidence in the OG to suggest she was in an abusive relationship?

Not really, IIRC. There's one mostly silent flashback, (including one weird scene where Vincent grabs Lucrecia's hands, she breaks his grip and runs away?) It's a possible interpretation, but not the only one.

We don't really have reliable information about the Cetra, it's all from Ifalna, who may be a bit partisan.
 

Starling

Pro Adventurer
I recall something about the children in ACC being more in tune with the planet because they were born more recently and still have a stronger connection people apparently tend to lose when their older. That seems to imply humans aren't all that different from Cetra and just need to put more effort into maintaining that connection and then figure out what to do with it. This would mean the main different between humans and Cetra are knowledge and culture. The city of the ancients looks like it was set up as more of a meeting place to do Cetra stuff as a group, what with the altar and that water projector, so it likely wasn't a permanent residence. Cetra settling and becoming humans before or after Jenova could go either way, though if humans split off from the Cetra before, one would think they would've been attacked by Jenova when it started going after other Cetra clans, as I doubt Jenova would've cared much who it was attacking.

If we're bringing religious references in the setting, I recommend looking up the gnostic concept of Sophia and how it relates to various personifications of wisdom, such as Minerva.

Is there evidence in the OG to suggest she was in an abusive relationship?
In the OG, Lucrecia's basically just there for expository purposes as Sephiroth's real mom and a tragic element of Vincent's backstory. We have her getting along with Vincent, then they have a falling out and suddenly she's with Hojo, letting him speak on her behalf without saying anything. It gives the impression that Hojo took advantage of what happened between her and Vincent to get her to go along with his experiment, seeing as she was completely quiet in the scene where Vincent was objecting to it. Her sudden involvement with Hojo after running away from Vincent is the kind of thing that can easily happen at the start of an abusive relationship, where the abusive individual takes advantage of the emotional vulnerability resulting from such things to get involved with the person, starting out by making them feel more comfortable around them and gradually isolating them from others or having them go along with their decisions more and more until they can pretty much do what they want. The DoC versions of the scenes are quite blatantly examples of stuff you could see in an emotionally abusive relationship, especially knowing how sociopathic Hojo is. Then, you have Hojo preventing Lucrecia from even holding her own child, which makes it pretty clear their relationship wasn't in any way healthy.

I have general misgivings about using the "she was in an abusive relationship" trope in fiction to excuse all the bad things a woman does. I feel that it denies them agency, almost like saying, "All women are nice and good really, so nice and good that they assume all men are nice and good, and then the bad men force them to do bad things." I would prefer her to be written as not being in an abusive relationship and freely choosing to experiment on her child, then belatedly coming to the realisation that she made a huge mistake of her own free will.

Fortunately the game also offers us Scarlet, who is clearly evil just because she likes it that way.
Just because it's an abusive relationship doesn't mean she didn't genuinely think experimenting on her unborn child would work out. Manipulations aside, Hojo still would've had to pitch the idea to her in a way that made it seem like any potential risks would be relatively minor and that she and the child would manage alright. Considering real life procedures that currently exist regarding genetically modifying embryos and how they may have even started with in vitro fertilization, making it seem like a safer procedure than it actually was should've been perfectly doable. There are plenty of genetically modified organisms out there that are perfectly healthy, including transgenic ones, which is when you insert DNA from another organism. We now have stuff like Goats whose milk contains spider silk, bio-luminescent cats, chirping mice and some plants that are more resilient than their unmodified counterparts. If the FF7 setting already had scientific research concerning the genetic modification of plants and animals through those methods, then a scientist who knew what they were doing should've been capable of doing that kind of thing to a human embryo just fine if moral debates were a non-issue. Jenova being what it is would obviously complicate things a great deal and cause some concerns but being the start of the Jenova project, they wouldn't have known that yet.

The main thing the abusive relationship does here is that Lucrecia would be more willing to listen to Hojo's judgement on the matter than Vincent's, as well as likely ignoring any doubts she has because she's not noticing the warning signs. It's like how people in abusive relationships tend to start out thinking things are fine and that all the friends/family telling them to break things off with the person they started seeing are just overacting or are trying to tell them what they can and can't do with their life. That's around the beginning of the abusive relationship, when the abusive person is still putting on airs of a good person you'd want to spend time with while getting the other person to distance themselves from all the people worried for their well-being, who, from an outside perspective, would be better able to see what's really going on. I'm not suggesting the abusive angle because I can't imagine a female character making the decisions Lucrecia made outside of one, but rather because the signs of an abusive relationship are already present and I feel that gets overlooked more often than not. If we were discussing a male character, I'd still be saying the same, so I'm not just trying to excuse her involvement in the Jenova Project based on gender. When this kind of thing is shown, especially in a realistic way, it's best to show it for what it is rather than pretend it isn't there. With how people tend to assume abuse is physical and overlook other forms, overlooking examples of those other forms certainly won't help people gain a better understanding of it.
 

Tashasaurous

Tash for Short
AKA
Sailor Moon, Mini Moon, Hotaru, Cardcaptor Sakura, Meilin, Xion, Kairi, Aqua, Tifa, Aerith, Yuffie, Elena, Misty, May, Dawn, Casey, Fiona, Ellie
Then, you have Hojo preventing Lucrecia from even holding her own child, which makes it pretty clear their relationship wasn't in any way healthy.

Hojo wasn't even good to people's health in the first place. If anything, he was the second disease to the Planet, Jenova being first on that list, both under disguises if you ask me. Nothing healthy about either of them, that's for sure.
 

Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
AKA
Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
The whole thing re: Lucrecia is a trainwreck.

Also, where was Gast? Does he even appear in DoC?

I don't know what the timeline is, Gast left the project when he discovered that Jenova wasn't an ancient. Did he know Lucrecia had been injected with the cells at that point?

I think they'd be able to salvage her character (imo) if she had been acting under Gast's influence/instruction, and then when Gast irresponsibly left the project Hojo took over. That would almost make sense....It still means she has awful judgement having a baby and marrying Hojo - they didn't even try and show him as anything but a creepy asshole in DoC (IIRC)

Actually - and this is probably a whole other topic - Sephiroth respects Gast, so he must have known him? so Gast left the project before he ran away to Icicle inn with Ifalna? So what was happening in the interim? Did Gast try to stop it? To intervene? Help Lucrecia at any point? Too many questions.
 
Did Gast leave the project early, or did he greenlight Hojo's experiment? Was he still in charge of the science department when Sephiroth was conceived? (I always assumed so). When did Hojo figure out that Jenova wasn't a Cetra?

Gast seems to be a chaotic neutral. From the little we know of him he served his own interests first and foremost. Maybe being a father would have made him more responsible; after all, he died trying to protect his wife and baby.

PS According to the timeline on the wiki, Sephiroth was born in 1980, and Gast then left the project and in the same year met Ifalna in Cosmo Canyon. Aerith wasn't born until 1985, so either Gast and Ifalna were really good at hiding, or Shinra wasn't trying hard to find them, or the Turks are just crap at their jobs (as per). Or maybe Gast was taking a sabbatical, and he went away expecting his underlings to work together while he was gone, but instead a power struggle erupted; and then once Hojo emerged on top he started looking for Gast with the intention of making sure he didn't come back, and it was only then that Hojo discovered the existence of an actual living Cetra, as he pursued the trail of Gast. All this is only my speculation, of course....
 
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Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
Just because it's an abusive relationship doesn't mean she didn't genuinely think experimenting on her unborn child would work out. Manipulations aside, Hojo still would've had to pitch the idea to her in a way that made it seem like any potential risks would be relatively minor and that she and the child would manage alright. Considering real life procedures that currently exist regarding genetically modifying embryos and how they may have even started with in vitro fertilization, making it seem like a safer procedure than it actually was should've been perfectly doable. There are plenty of genetically modified organisms out there that are perfectly healthy, including transgenic ones, which is when you insert DNA from another organism. We now have stuff like Goats whose milk contains spider silk, bio-luminescent cats, chirping mice and some plants that are more resilient than their unmodified counterparts. If the FF7 setting already had scientific research concerning the genetic modification of plants and animals through those methods, then a scientist who knew what they were doing should've been capable of doing that kind of thing to a human embryo just fine if moral debates were a non-issue. Jenova being what it is would obviously complicate things a great deal and cause some concerns but being the start of the Jenova project, they wouldn't have known that yet.

The main thing the abusive relationship does here is that Lucrecia would be more willing to listen to Hojo's judgement on the matter than Vincent's, as well as likely ignoring any doubts she has because she's not noticing the warning signs. It's like how people in abusive relationships tend to start out thinking things are fine and that all the friends/family telling them to break things off with the person they started seeing are just overacting or are trying to tell them what they can and can't do with their life. That's around the beginning of the abusive relationship, when the abusive person is still putting on airs of a good person you'd want to spend time with while getting the other person to distance themselves from all the people worried for their well-being, who, from an outside perspective, would be better able to see what's really going on. I'm not suggesting the abusive angle because I can't imagine a female character making the decisions Lucrecia made outside of one, but rather because the signs of an abusive relationship are already present and I feel that gets overlooked more often than not. If we were discussing a male character, I'd still be saying the same, so I'm not just trying to excuse her involvement in the Jenova Project based on gender. When this kind of thing is shown, especially in a realistic way, it's best to show it for what it is rather than pretend it isn't there. With how people tend to assume abuse is physical and overlook other forms, overlooking examples of those other forms certainly won't help people gain a better understanding of it.

You know, I had no difficulty finding Lucrecia sympathetic even operating under the headcanon that she went into the project open eyed. Lucrecia's specialism is biotechnology, she would know as much or more than Hojo does about the risks, she doesn't need to be tricked into it to realise she made a mistake later. Besides, Sephiroth turned out fine (he snaps due to his upbringing, not any inherent defects).

There's no real reason to listen to Vincent. Scientifically, he doesn't understand it on the same level she does. Morally, he's a Turk. If they're anything like their modern version, part of his job is kidnapping children for science experiments, he doesn't have any moral high ground here. And he doesn't really seem concerned about Sephiroth's welfare at any point, so much as Lucrecia's, which she doesn't need his permission for.

There's this line in Dirge (in the same scene she stays silent in in the OG):

Vincent: Are you sure?

Lucrecia: Am I sure? If this only concerns me, then yes, I am sure.

There are a couple of different interpretations of this, but I kind of read this as 'Do you think I'm not capable of making my own decisions?' Vincent doesn't point out the welfare of Sephiroth as a consideration, his concern is for Lucrecia herself, regardless of her own wishes.

I'm not saying that the abusive relationship interpretation isn't valid, but I don't think you need it to make Lucrecia sympathetic.
 
In what way do you find her sympathetic, Clem? I'm not asking to be argumentative; it's not like there's only one way to be right on this. I'm just curious, because I don't find anything in her to sympathise with at all. In that respect I think she can be quite a "divisive" character - I put divisive in brackets because I only intend to mean that she divides opinion.
 

Keveh Kins

Pun Enthusiast
I wouldn't mind a little more Holzoff :monster: Even if he just stayed with the party temporarily to act as a guide scaling gaea's cliff. He could go as far as the crater and turn back and could have his whole exposition on his past in bits and pieces along the way.

You could come across the area where Yamski cut his rope and that could act as the trigger for Holzoff to tell his story. Even more morbidly, you could come across Yamski's remains at a lower section of the cliff, similar to the Sorrow in Metal Gear Solid 3.

I dunno, I'd be happy to see any of the minor characters get a bit more screen time :) I'd ideally like them to be integrated in a different way that ultimately achieves the same thing as the original did for their character, provided it made sense to do so. No point changing the presentation around if it doesn't need to be, but if there's some wiggle room for a little variation I'd be happy. So stuff like what I suggested with Holzoff or have Johnny be present in the flashbacks to Cloud's childhood when he follows Tifa and her friends up the mountain. Little variations and whatnot.
 

JBedford

Pro Adventurer
AKA
JBed
[...]or have Johnny be present in the flashbacks to Cloud's childhood when he follows Tifa and her friends up the mountain.
Johnny did not grow up in Nibelheim, was not in SOLDIER, and was no one's childhood friend (poor Johnny). :monster:

Although he does say so, it's bad translation. Unless, as an ascended extra, he acquires these new roles. But he's meant to have grown up in the slums and not done much while living with his parents his life so far.
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
In what way do you find her sympathetic, Clem? I'm not asking to be argumentative; it's not like there's only one way to be right on this. I'm just curious, because I don't find anything in her to sympathise with at all. In that respect I think she can be quite a "divisive" character - I put divisive in brackets because I only intend to mean that she divides opinion.

Well, it's not like she's a paragon or anything, she made some terrible mistakes, no question. But she clearly lived to regret them (her catchphrase became 'I'm so sorry',)and dedicated her time to trying to redeem herself for some of them, brought Vincent back from the dead after Hojo killed him, the records of her brain in Shelke have good intentions and act to save Vincent again. I felt she genuinely did her best to make up for her mistakes, which maybe isn't enough for redemption, but keep her from being completely irredeemable.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the word 'sympathetic'
 
I don't think you're misunderstanding it. We all find different characters sympathetic, in real life and in fiction. I see what you mean; she has a redemption arc. I reckon she's someone I'd like more in real life than I do as a fictional character.
 
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