SPOILERS Whisper Harbinger and Sephiroth

[cold_spirit]

I wanted to make a quick thread on Whisper Harbinger and Sephiroth. This is something @ultima786 has pointed out before and I've been rolling it around in my mind since.

Whisper Harbinger’s heart glows purple.

Immediately after Whisper Harbinger’s defeat, Sephiroth is shown at the center of a purple aura.

Perhaps this placement isn't coincidental. After all, the first appearance of the “unknown” Sephiroth we often talk about is on the "other side of the Wall of Fate” (i.e. inside the Singularity). Looking back through the chapter, this unknown Sephiroth doesn’t appear until after Whisper Harbinger is defeated.

From Audrey's Ultimania translation:

Sephiroth appearances (continued)
16) Ch 18- Illusion (appears at the end of Midgar Highway)
17) Ch 18- Unknown (appears at the other side of the Wall of Fate)
18) Ch 18- Unknown (Fights Cloud and the others)

Maybe this unknown Sephiroth isn’t just waiting for the party to defeat Whisper Harbinger. Maybe he’s just been released. Maybe the Whispers were collectively acting as a cage. A cage specifically created to restrain this unknown Sephiroth, wherever he's from.

I’ve always felt that there’s something off about the Whispers. They don’t look healthy. They literally appear as black cloaks, which has been synonymous with Sephiroth since the original game. Furthermore, the illusions brought on by the Whispers use the same “green noise” visual effect as the illusions brought on by Jenova. Aerith even describes the Whispers as “howling in pain”.

Sephiroth’s will has always been portrayed as corrosive. It eats away at everything. If the Whispers are actively “caging” this unknown Sephiroth, I can’t help but wonder if his influence has “tainted” them in return. It could explain their black cloak appearance. It could explain why their illusions look no different than Jenova’s. It could explain why they’re howling in pain.

In the end, Sephiroth wants out. He personally invites Cloud into the Singularity. Whatever influence he might have while being caged, it’s apparently not enough. Not enough to prevent the “end” he speaks of at the edge of creation.

Sephiroth: “Our world will become part of it… one day. But I... will not end. Nor will I have you end.”

So why does Sephiroth continue to fight the party even after being released? I think he wants to make them stronger, specifically Cloud. Check out these quotes throughout the game:

Chapter 2
Sephiroth: “You are too weak to save anyone. Not even yourself.”

Chapter 8
Sephiroth: “Oh, Cloud. There's still so much to be done.”

Chapter 13
Sephiroth: “You have failed again, I see. But through suffering, you will grow strong.”

Chapter 18
Sephiroth: “Cloud, lend me your strength. Let us defy destiny… together.”

I believe @Obsidian Fire has brought up the following before: At this point in the original game, Sephiroth was only interested in Cloud for the reunion. He doesn’t even recognize Cloud in the cargo ship. In Remake, however, Sephiroth is actively monitoring Cloud, invites him to fight Whisper Harbinger, and even offers a truce. Sephiroth has something in mind for Cloud, but Cloud needs to be made stronger to handle the job.

That’s all. Feels a lot better to have these thoughts down somewhere.

 

[Shademp]

Whenever you fight the Whispers before Ch18 the battle only ends when you defeat a purple Whisper. So the question becomes if the purple color is simply an expression of a natural weak point or if it's caused by Sephiroth.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I don't think he was imprisoned but I think he was waiting inside them. He went in there on purpose. He more than likely was waiting for Cloud and the others to weaken those Feelers so he could absorb them into himself.

While Sephiroth is in that purple energy, you see him absorb all the black energy into himself. Pretty sure those are all the remaining Arbiters of Fate. So yeah, I can see him sorta just chillin' inside them all like his other self chillin' in the Northern Crater, within the mako crystal inside the Lifestream.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Maybe the Unknown Sephiroth is the version that came into existence when Cloud and Co defeated the Whispers and so made possible alternative futures. Maybe he has come from one of those alternative futures?

 

[a_apple 2.0]

Holy fuck

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1418501621487575041

 

[ultima786]

Holy fuck

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1418501621487575041

What do you make of this?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Is it really that surprising? This is what Sephiroth said after all

 

[TurquoiseHammer]

To me the only piece of totally new info is that line about how Sephiroth seeks to preserve/prolong the world by sacrificing some or all people on it. Is that just what Aerith is assuming? If not, it's a pretty big drop. Fits with some of the Omega Weapon theories.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I mean. It's in character. Aerith said that about him in Chapter 18 and let's not forget he intends to drop a Meteor on the Planet to wound it and absorb all the spirit energy.

I also feel the main important point is the clarification on there being literally 2 Sephiroths. That's thankfully been put to rest. And we know the planet has a future where it apparently meets it's true demise.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Well then Tseng foreshadowed this when he said the dropping of Sector 7 was a 'balancing of the scales'.

 

[TurquoiseHammer]

I mean. It's in character. Aerith said that about him in Chapter 18 and let's not forget he intends to drop a Meteor on the Planet to wound it and absorb all the spirit energy.

I guess I've been going on the assumption that meteor isn't (future) Sephiroth's end game anymore. If all he were concerned about were ensuring it worked this time around, he could have just merked Aerith and/or Cloud as soon as the harbinger was defeated. No need to lead Cloud on some convoluted, manipulative journey in the hopes he ends up helping Sephiroth. I think now that Sephiroth is freed from the bonds of destiny and the planet is no longer cut off from the universe's Lifestream, we'll start to see his machinations evolve beyond meteor and maybe even beyond Omega.

By the way, I would also say this excerpt suggests that the "end" Sephiroth is referring to at the Edge of Creation is not the planet's destruction by meteor. If Sephiroth is sincere about saving Gaia (or more specifically Gaia's Lifestream), then he wouldn't be afraid of the meteor plan succeeding. I think this has to be some future calamity that happened after the events of DoC. Jenova's angry big brother? A crisis caused by Genesis and Weiss? Some planetary executioner sent by the universe's Lifestream? Lots to think about!

Edit: I changed "confirms" to "suggests" because I realized I had misremembered the quotes. Sephiroth is described to be sincere about wishing to show Cloud a vision of the planet's fate (the one we see at the Edge of Creation); however, it isn't stated whether or not he genuinely wants to avert that fate. I personally think he does.

 

[Shademp]

The planet's name is not Gaia, it does not have an official name

Now if you'll excuse me I'm off to reclaim the Promised Land because this crusade isn't gonna crusade itself

 

[TurquoiseHammer]

Here comes the grumpy prescriptivist! Let the English-speaking community have its own piece of lore!

 

[Shademp]

@Ultimasamune
I respect your response and I thank you for being a good sport

 

[grooveorganic]

The idea of Sephiroth's influence/will/presence eating away or infecting Harbinger from the inside out is super creepy, and I like it. I just still feels... not quite right. Because if he can do all of that why does he even need any help? He could keep at it and eventually wouldn't Harbinger just succumb to his influence? I don't think he'd mention needing help with defying destiny afterwards if he'd gotten this far on his own.

Maybe this unknown Sephiroth isn’t just waiting for the party to defeat Whisper Harbinger. Maybe he’s just been released. Maybe the Whispers were collectively acting as a cage. A cage specifically created to restrain this unknown Sephiroth, wherever he's from.

I think that purple mass, or Harbinger's heart (I like that), is literally every event on the life of the planet spun together like a ball of yarn. It seems super strange that this majestic, larger than life, otherworldly being would waste all of this energy to imprison just Sephiroth. Doesn't it have better things to do?

Instead, what if every major event directly caused by Sephiroth is contained in this?

Harbinger is basically the record keeper of history on the planet; past, present and future. Which is fitting since it's supposed to be Destiny itself in physical form, while the whispers job was to feel out disturbances in the force and correct/edit them.

When we "kill" Viridi, Rubrum, and Cocero, Harbinger ends up injured and loses both of its arms, then those purple/colorful ribbons start to seep out like that's supposed to be blood or something. Taking this literally, Harbinger is basically bleeding out the future, It manages to repair itself before that happens, but some of the event ribbons/lines/strings escape hits each party member and whoops! They aren't supposed to know about this stuff!

The whispers rush to staunch the blood flow like they've basically been doing the whole game.

I noticed right before each loss of limb, there's a close up of Harbinger's chest with electric currents running through it like it's really struggling to keep functioning or something. I don't think that's Sephiroth trying to get free. I think that's Harbinger losing control of the history of the planet.



Here's a clearer image of Harbinger's right arm healing. All of those sparkles turned into "event lines".



When Harbinger is defeated it's heart looks like it basically bursts open and splatters out every blood-rainbow-ribbon-event of all time. Before that though, there was a series of shots basically showing some, if not the biggest, major key events leading up to the end of the og, just in reverse.

A rewind, if you will.



We didn't let Sephiroth out, but we fucked up.... Maybe? All of the events of the og (AC, BC, CC, and DoC) are set free to happen however now... Maybe there's no sequence of events anymore, just shit will happen and we have to live with it.



And the grandest, most epic, life ruining event in the history of the planet... was Meteor making landfall. That's technically where FF7 ended back in 1997 for me. Who caused that? Sephiroth. And I bet he's been on Harbingers shit list since that day.

I don't think many people realize, but this set of images (below) isn't some illusion. This happened. It's meteor touching down in Midgar, being seen from the ground floor. The party is witnessing history from a first point perspective and this was after we were supposed to have WON. Is this a evidence we'll be in Midgar this time for the final battle? Is this where Cloud is going to have to make his choice in seven seconds? Does Aerith actually survive so she's there for the decisive battle?

Find out in the Next Episode of FF7RBZ!

Anyway, hahaha, I think this is the last thing Harbinger unintentionally shows us after being defeated. It's a warning.




Then Sephiroth appears right where Harbinger used to be, with his (new?) ability to control meteor (did he straight up reverse it?), negative lifestream/geostigma(?), and a barrage of new attacks he can use to murder us all with. This reads to me like now he's the one in control of future events. He's the Arbiter of Fate now, and what happens between leaving Midgar and the start of Advent Children might boil down to how he might be feeling that day. So, godspeed Cloud and co.

I don't think Sephiroth was ever a prisoner...

But he's sure as hell the warden now.

 

[TurquoiseHammer]

Great, detailed write up!

One of the earliest theories about the presence of purple was proposed by Sleepez a few weeks after release, and I always found it pretty compelling. It's essentially what you just argued against--that the purple signifies Sephiroth and the tainted Lifestream (the "negative Lifestream" I guess it has been called). This tainted legacy of Sephiroth has built up to such an extent that it poses a prime threat to the fate of Gaia's... ahem, 星's Lifestream. In the wake of Omega's destruction, the planet's Lifestream has been permanently severed from rejoining the universe's Lifestream as intended. Therefore the planet's Lifestream has become a sort of eternal prison for Sephiroth's will. Even if he conquers it and slowly erodes it with Geostigma or whatever you want to call his evil influence, there will be no place to go, and the planet will simply rot and dissolve in time. The best the arbiter can do to protect the Lifestream is constrain Sephiroth's destiny.

The theory doesn't satisfactorily account for the purple color of the enigmatic specters or the purple beams in the rainbow visions that zoom off into the party members' consciousnesses. IIRC Sleepez offers the possible explanation that this purple beam indicates that Sephiroth is the one sending these visions out, choosing the most foreboding ones to urge the party on to defeat the harbinger. You can take that as you will. In any case I think large parts of both theories are very compatible. The idea that we just released Sephiroth from an eternal cosmic prison is pretty damn badass.

By the way, is there a reason to think there will be some 7-second window where Cloud has to make a decision about the fate of the planet, or is that a result of the English localization's phrasing? To me it seems like our chance to avert this crisis begins now, not at some pivotal moment we have to wait for.

Edit: Hmmm, looking at the translation for the Seven Seconds Till the End quote note, that may be the case. Will have to double check the order of clauses in the original text.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

At this point in the original game, Sephiroth was only interested in Cloud for the reunion. He doesn’t even recognize Cloud in the cargo ship.

Remember that "not" recognizing him was all a ruse to begin messing with him.

 

[cold_spirit]

Interesting. Is that confirmed via an Ultimania or something? Or is it assumed since it's unlikely Sephiroth forgot the grunt who defeated him?

 

[Odysseus]

It's self evident because every aspect of Sephiroth's later manipulation hinges on Sephiroth convincing Cloud that "Cloud" never actually existed.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Sephiroth tried to convinced Cloud that Sephiroth never existed?

 

[Odysseus]

Leave my grammar alone, you.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I apologise. I admit to being a grammar Nazi, but with all the elaborations on OG lore, I honestly thought it had been mooted as some new twist in the tale.

 

[Odysseus]

Sorry, my response was meant to be a joke. I did notice that when I wrote it, the "he" could grammatically refer to Clour OR Sephiroth, but I hoped context would make it obvious who I was referring to lol. I made it more clear now.

The reason Sephiroth goes to such great lengths to manipulate Cloud and make Cloud complicit in the horrors Sephiroth is causing is specifically because Sephiroth hates Cloud and wants to get back at him for what he did to Sephiroth in the reactor. Sephiroth didn't need Cloud in order to get the black materia, he wanted it to be Cloud who gave it to him because getting revenge was more important to Sephiroth than the efficient execution of his plan. It's not enough to just kill Cloud, he needs to break Cloud the way Cloud broke him. That's how I see it, anyway.

 

[waw]

What do you make of this?

My takeaway? This is explicit that Sephiroth seeks to preserve the Planet.

Maybe no one agrees but that's different than what he said in OG and different than what he said in AC. In OG, he wanted to become a God by absorbing the spiritual energy/Lifestream (maybe this is preserve the planet, but it strikes me more like become the Planet). In AC he wanted to basically kill it and sail the cosmos killing other planets.

So for me, this is a huge implication. This Sephiroth is... different.

Remember this:

Spoiler

(These images are guides of when which Sephiroth appears - I have it saved from Dutchdread's tumblr)

And we have Audrey's translation from the Intergrade Ultimania discussing this:

Spoiler

Toriyama lists 4 types of Sephiroths there, and we see 4 types of Sephiroths in the charts provided. The fourth being "Sephiroth himself" after Harbinger is defeated (that's how I read it). So we have Sephiroth running around only after that thing is defeated.

Mako has said maybe he's waiting, a la OG FF7 in the Northern Crater. Sleepezi and others have said he was imprisoned.

I don't know if either is confirmed yet. My personal hypothesis:

Harbinger-Sephiroth is the post-AC/DOC Sephiroth that is going to die and he wants free (free of Fate and possibly Jenova's instinctual influence). I think he's genuinely asking for Cloud's aid at the Edge of Creation. I don't think it's a redeemed Sephiroth or a good Sephiroth, but one who wants to be in control of his own fate - free to make his own decisions. Something that Sephiroth has never, ever truly had in his lifetime/Afterlifetime. He's either been under Shinra's boot or Jenova's thrall.

Cloud has freedom, freedom to defy Jenova's instincts and Sephiroth's will. Sephiroth wants to get himself some of that.

I don't quite know what Sephiroth was doing in Harbinger... maybe that was his... ride? into the past and/or his prison. It would make sense that by the time of DoC, or maybe due to Genesis and Weiss, Sephiroth gets caught up in Harbinger so he can't keep resurfacing like in AC. Maybe that's his "final" defeat in the OG timeline. (Huh, that actually makes sense to me - we could see time traveling Weiss and Genesis in a future installment if anything like this is true). If so, it would make sense that Sephiroth comes to a point where Cloud is most malleable, hoping to win him over in his sort of abusive-boyfriend-manipulator like way.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Sephiroth seeking to preserve the Planet gives me major "Mr. Burns seeking to recycle and protect the planet" vibes.

Sephiroth may want to do something "good" like preserve the life of the planet. But, even if that's true.... When Sephiroth tries to be good, he's still evil.

I also feel like there's a very meta reading in Sephiroth's desire to keep the precious memories and life of FFVII's planet alive. Especially with the fact that Cloud almost wants to take Sephiroth's hand in that moment in the ending. But just like Cloud, we (and the writers) know that's not the right order of things, and nothing can live forever.