Who's the Main Antagonist of FFX?

[Ghost X]

@Tres: Give me your definition of what a prelude is before arguing any further on the issue. It'll make matters a lot easier. I'm beginning to suspect you just dislike the term .

With the definition I've used, in relation to FFVII, yes, Crisis Core is a prelude (just as the Hobbit is considered a prelude to LOTR); in relation to a final battle, everything that occurs before it could be considered a prelude too; and finally, in relation to a story's main conflict, a minor conflict that plays an introductory role to it is a prelude as well . The events of Midgar certainly isn't the main conflict of FFVII after all, as it exists before it.

I think we're arguing two different things when it comes to "cause of the story". You're arguing that in FFVII's world history, President Shinra is an architect for a lot of what happens. This is undeniable, but that's not what I'm arguing. This thread deals with story structure (eg: beginning, conflict, resolution), and Sephiroth provides the main conflict, and thus the story. Once he is "dead", the story is resolved (ignoring the compilation). This is not a coincidence .

 

[hleV]

Having read the posts, I'm still somewhat sticking with Sin, with Yu Yevon being close to taking over.

The game is about defeating Sin, till the very end. I think that's more important than characters' personal goals or their opinions of their enemies. We meet other antagonists throughout the game and it's still all about Sin. Sin can bring the greatest harm upon the world, is the biggest threat; this makes the other antagonists just obstacles that aren't as important as Sin in the bigger picture. Seymour? An obstacle to defeating Sin. Jecht? An obstacle to defeating Sin. Yu Yevon? An obstacle to making sure Sin never re-appears.

Also I don't think analysing the word antagonist helps, as we're trying to determine the main one, and I doubt the main one is determined by how well they match the description of antagonist.

I would've liked to add Jecht as an option (not just to laugh at people who vote for him! J/K) and maybe make it possible to change the vote, but I can't edit my posts :/

 

[Novus]

The main threat is Yu Yevon, but its difficult to classify it as such because I believe its just an organism operating on a script after having thousands of years of doing the same continual routine. So it's like the real life cordyceps, existing and conniving without anthropomorphic intelligence rather than malevolent possession like the exorcist or Golbez.

Lets say someone who has been an abusive father is infected by cordyceps. The hero is haunted by memories of who they were, but after seeing them kill enough people, they go out and kill them in one last battle and there is some sort of redemption.

Later the hero burns the cordyceps plant, ending any threat that might occur.

I suppose if the story was told from multiple points of view it would end up being Sin, yes, because they all have loss due to it. But the story is too Tidus centric, I'll have to actually look up and try to remember scenes told from any other pov anyone who can remember any offhand feel free to post.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

@Tres: Give me your definition of what a prelude is before arguing any further on the issue. It'll make matters a lot easier. I'm beginning to suspect you just dislike the term .

With the definition I've used, in relation to FFVII, yes, Crisis Core is a prelude (just as the Hobbit is considered a prelude to LOTR); in relation to a final battle, everything that occurs before it could be considered a prelude too; and finally, in relation to a story's main conflict, a minor conflict that plays an introductory role to it is a prelude as well . The events of Midgar certainly isn't the main conflict of FFVII after all, as it exists before it.

I think we're arguing two different things when it comes to "cause of the story". You're arguing that in FFVII's world history, President Shinra is an architect for a lot of what happens. This is undeniable, but that's not what I'm arguing. This thread deals with story structure (eg: beginning, conflict, resolution), and Sephiroth provides the main conflict, and thus the story. Once he is "dead", the story is resolved (ignoring the compilation). This is not a coincidence .

I don't think we're necessarily arguing two different things, just looking at it differently. The story begins with trying to take down President Shinra and the paradigm he's established, then goes on to be about dealing with a renegade experiment created under his supervision. He's undoubtedly the cause of the story.

Now, is he the driving force of the story? No. Is that what you're talking about? If that's our defintion for "antagonist," then Sin would be FFX's, inarguably.

Your definition of "prelude" was the one I was using, by the way.

 

[Ghost X]

@HLEV: I'm going to have to disagree. Analysing and getting technical is very important indeed .

@Tres:

Now, is he the driving force of the story? No. Is that what you're talking about? If that's our defintion for "antagonist," then Sin would be FFX's, inarguably.

Yes, the main antagonist must be an adversary of the protagonist, and the driving force of the main conflict, as you put it. In FFX though, it is rather Yu Yevon that fits this definition. Defeating Sin didn't resolve the story, after all. The resolution was the Eternal Calm, which could only occur with Yu Yevon's defeat.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I see your point, but still must disagree. If Yu Yevon actually controlled Sin, I would agree. As it is, the temples play a big role in perpetuating the cycle themselves. They aren't trying to end it, and actively oppose those who would try. It's the Final Summoning or nothing according to them.

Sin is what moves the story along at each beat, and everything fundamental to the majority of the cast's goals and motivations in the story revolves around Sin. Yu Yevon is an obstacle to the goal of eliminating Sin, sure, but so are the temples, Yunalesca and Seymour.

You could remove Yu Yevon as the final boss and still have the same story even though the conflict wasn't quite resolved until he was (easily) dealt with, just as you could remove Necron as FFIX's final boss and still have the same story despite the world being in danger until he was dealt with. And Necron arguably has as big a role as Yu Yevon, since he seems to be part of the Iifa Tree.

 

[hleV]

@HLEV: I'm going to have to disagree. Analysing and getting technical is very important indeed .

We would need to analyse and get technical about main antagonist, not just antagonist, because the mentioned characters are all antagonists.

I seem to have been granted the ability to edit my posts. Hurray! I can't edit the poll, though. Oh well.

 

[Novus]

I seem to remember reading a book about FF9 and Necron, and how he is really the only true antagonist within the text. It referred explicitly to the black mages leaving with Kuja in hope of their life spans being expanded but two staying behind to look after the Chocobo egg.
It was quite well researched, I'll try to locate it. Also could you still have the same ending without Necron, with Mikoto's speech ect? Kuja's sacrifice occurred in the face of death, and saved the party from it.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yeah, you would still have the party dead/dying and their souls trapped in a Memoria about to explode until he saves them. He killed them with that last shot, after all.

Necron's only service to the narrative, as far as I can tell, is to provide a reason for the Iifa Tree to die once he does. Kuja could easily have been written to be responsible for that as well, though (e.g. he commands it to stop moving and the party still evacuates the area, having to hope Kuja's effort worked and having to trust that he was sincere).

 

[Ghost X]

Yu Yevon is an obstacle to the goal of eliminating Sin, sure, but so are the temples, Yunalesca and Seymour.

Sure, at the start of the game, the goal may have been to get rid of Sin, but didn't that then change to permanently getting rid of Sin? There's a difference. This is the point in which Yu Yevon became the main antagonist, or rather it was realised that he was. My memory is pretty shit though, so feel free to make corrections . The temples, Yunalesca, and Seymour (iirc), can't make another Sin, where as Yu Yevon could.

You could remove Yu Yevon as the final boss and still have the same story even though the conflict wasn't quite resolved until he was (easily) dealt with, just as you could remove Necron as FFIX's final boss and still have the same story despite the world being in danger until he was dealt with. And Necron arguably has as big a role as Yu Yevon, since he seems to be part of the Iifa Tree.

The ease at which an antagonist is dealt with in the game play hasn't anything to do with its importance in the story . You wouldn't have the same storyline if Yu Yevon was removed, because of Yu Yevon's capacity to create another Sin. That was the main conflict. The party didn't just want to defeat Sin, they wanted to prevent another from being created.

Necron wasn't a driving force in the FFIX storyline. Despite his destructive capacity, he was a minor antagonist who seemed to appear out of nowhere at the end of the story. His role is equivalent to something like a small-time thug in a movie who is a legitimate threat to the protagonist's life after the main antagonist is dealt with. The final hurdle, so to speak. This is a role that is entirely different to Yu Yevon's in FFX, and not because the party is invincible in the game play when fighting against him . As earlier argued, Yu Yevon is the cause of the main conflict (to permanently remove Sin). The same can not be said of Necron in FFIX.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The goal was always to permanently get rid of Sin. Thus, the "there's always a chance that myabe it won't come back this time" statements and the "when we atone, then get rid of him, he'll stay gone" beliefs.

Hell, Yuna was still even willing to do the final summoning despite knowing of Yevon's hypocrisy right up until Yunalesca said that the final summoning offered no chance of really eliminating Sin. You'll also recall that it was this revelation from her that sent even the always-calm Lulu into a righteous fury.

As for your other statements, you're not responding to what I actually said:

"You could remove Yu Yevon as the final boss ..."

I also never said that the ease with which he is defeated is an indication of story structure. I referenced it simply because it's laughable how easily he is defeated.

Clearly that wasn't my argument since I immediately go on to reference the much more formidable Necron.

And, to be fair, yeah, a lot of people lump Yu Yevon and Necron together as "space fleas who come out of nowhere at the end" because both appear after the major climaxes of their stories. We only even learn about Yu Yevon once Yunalesca is defeated and the final summoning is no longer an option. The story is basically over at that point except for taking on Sin.

The two bosses also have equal importance to their stories, always "behind the scenes" and at the heart of the real problem -- Yu Yevon reconstructing Sin, the Iifa Tree still set to fuse Gaia with Terra, resulting in a cataclysm. Defeating Kuja would have been meaningless without the Iifa Tree dead and defeating Sin would have resolved nothing without Yu Yevon vanquished, but this does not make them the driving forces of the stories that revolve around these schemes.

Again, I would have no problem accepting Yu Yevon as such if he actually controlled Sin, a la Ultimecia's possession of Edea, but he's just a passenger inside Sin who puts some gas in the car every few hundred years.

 

[Keveh Kins]

I for one believe the true source of evil and all of Spira's woes is Blitzball. Even in the dream world it causes disaster. Tidus plays a game, Sin shows up and blows Zanarkand to shit. Later Tidus gets on a boat to go to a Blitzball tournament, who shows up? Sin! He makes a beeline for the home of a famed Blitzball team in the Killika beasts, whilst the Luca Goers are also there at the temple and again he wreaks havoc. The game even gives rise to mega-douchebags like Bickson.

The story of FFX is one man's journey to break away from the monotony of his career, playing Blitzball, a game that has driven him so deranged that he becomes a giant fish and engages in an endless quest to eradicate the game that has haunted him so from history entirely. Jecht is but a grossly misunderstood hero.

Or, y'know...one of the much more plausible and well thought out theories in the rest of this thread...>__>

 

[Ghost X]

@Tres: Given your better (and correct) memory of the story, I'll have to concede. I thought Yu Yevon's role was known about earlier. My bad .

 

[hleV]

While Yu Yevon is important to the overall story, his purpose in the game could be compared to a button which, when pressed, permanently disables Sin's ability to respawn. Defeating Yu Yevon was a measure to stop Sin from causing more harm to Spira. They were going against Sin by facing Yu Yevon. I believe this alone makes Sin more a main antagonist than Yu Yevon.

 

[Ghost X]

@HLEV: I wouldn't use those arguments. Yu Yevon is a being, which is not like a button (not a being). There's a critical difference . Also, if I'm not mistaken, wasn't each Sin an individual entity? Yu Yevon is the common denominator in creating them, as opposed to it, if that's the case. That's not really an argument for Jecht's Sin.

It'd be like if Dr Frankenstein kept creating monsters, he'd be the one to defeat to stop the issue of the monsters. Defeating one doesn't solve the problem. The problem is their creation.

The only reason I believe Yu Yevon is not the main antagonist is because of his apparently minimal role at the end of the story. The main conflict of FFX is certainly the idea of permanently getting rid of Sin, and the party always thought there was a chance of doing so by defeating Sin until Yunalesca's revelation, as Tres pointed out. So Sin was the main driving force throughout the game for the perceived resolution of the conflict, even if that perception was wrong.

 

[Novus]

So Sin was the main driving force throughout the game for the perceived resolution of the conflict, even if that perception was wrong.

I'd agree with this except the story is 80-90% narrated by Tidus. Everything that occurs up to Yunalesca is whatever Tidus wants us to know. Since Tidus sees Sin as Jecht, that's where the main conflict is. This isn't like FF7 where each individual character has their own centric journey that spurs them to continue fighting. Even Vincent has a brief pov with the waterfall (the flashbacks). How can the villain be Sin if the storyteller himself doesn't refer to it as such?
If the story was told by someone like, say, Wakka it would be Sin because Sin killed his brother. But we never encounter the previous Sin either.

Who was the previous Sin anyway? Is there a list of them?

 

[Ghost X]

The antagonist doesn't have to be the villain, they simply have to cause the conflict with the protagonist. If you can identify the conflict and the driving force of it, you have identified the antagonist, if the thing responsible is a person (not necessarily a human person). I'm still arguing here because I'm not really sure myself. Arguing helps me be sure .

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

This should answer any questions about the timeline of events, who became Sin, etc.:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/2000008-final-fantasy-x-storyline/21477330

 

[Novus]

The antagonist doesn't have to be the villain, they simply have to cause the conflict with the protagonist. If you can identify the conflict and the driving force of it, you have identified the antagonist, if the thing responsible is a person (not necessarily a human person). I'm still arguing here because I'm not really sure myself. Arguing helps me be sure .

I was using villain synonymously with antagonist in that last post, meaning Jecht under the guise of Sin is what causes the conflict for Tidus who is telling the entire story (except for arguably the last twenty percent of the game). In the context of the conversation my definition is the same as what you just said.

To clarify:

Antagonist:

In-universe perspective: Yu-Yevon

Limited storytelling povs:

Multiple pov FFX characters: Sin

Sole Narrator Tidus: Jecht

This should answer any questions about the timeline of events, who became Sin, etc.:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/2000008-final-fantasy-x-storyline/21477330

Thanks, I'll look it over. Although yeah, there isn't a list of who each individual sin was but it has a final count. The timeline is rather amusing though that this is only the sixth sin in almost half a millenia if battling them, and it was about to be defeated within ten years of the previous one. Those calms are horrendously short when you put it in those terms. You get a five year break after almost a century of hell.