Why do people like Genesis?

[Vivi]

Edit: I didn't realize that whole idea that Genesis's adoptive parents were cruel is fanon thing. Sorry about that!

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I so hate Genesis that I'm not sure if I can form a coherent post about why I dislike him so much.

If Genesis is to be removed from Crisis Core's storyline then I believe there's a chance for the story to be more compelling than the lame, boring tale that it is... I don't really have a solid story formed in my head, just a few ideas here and there, but if I were to write CC's story all over again, I can imagine myself keeping most of the characters, including Hollander, but NOT Genesis.

I'd rather focus on Angeal, a firm believer of SOLDIER honor, who feels wronged and ultimately turns against Shinra, breaking Zack's heart and making them enemies, but at the same time causing Zack to question his loyalty and SOLDIER pride and whatnot. Because that part of the story actually evoked some emotion in me other than boredom from LOVELESS recitals or frustration over not being able to skip cutscenes of some bitch in red leather.

I couldn't agree more.

I would have preferred to see Angeal turn against Shinra because of its crimes against humanity, maybe specifically due to things he had witnessed in Wutai, rather than because his best friend was on a selfish rampage and he felt he had to help. In actualy fact, though, Angeal never turns against Shinra - he isn't fighting on Genesis' side, he's trying to stop him and bring him to his senses. Several times characters refer to Angeal "planning to return" once the Genesis problem has been sorted out.

The "three heroes" things from Loveless doesn't help matters any, narrative-wise.

@ Vivi, there's no reason to suppose that Genesis' parents were unkind to him. Nobody in the game ever blames them. Fans tend to explain away his nasty excesses on the grounds "that his parents must have been mean to him, poor exprimental baby," but I think it was just his character: he was born selfish and cruel. Look at what he did to all those poor Genesis clones! He really is a monster.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yeah, it's established canon that his adoptive parents genuinely loved him. They even lied to Shin-Ra about his prodigy status to keep him out of SOLDIER, but he ends up in there on his own, seeking glory.

 

[jazzflower92]

Not to mention I have a feeling that living with wealthy and supportive adoptive parents made him into a sorta of self entitled brat who always wants his way.

Yeah,not to mention what he does with the Genesis clones should have made him irredeemable.Thats why I label Genesis unintentionally unsympathetic because his destructive selfish actions have hurt people and destroyed the lives of his friends as well.For whatever reason Square just think he is redeembale just because he saw the goddess at the end of the game.One thing about redeemable villains is they are supposed to have a justifed reason why they have changed.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I'd say this is a case of "I've been lied to since birth by the people who supposedly loved me", which never ends well in anime/manga. If you can't trust your parents... who can you trust.

One thing I think that wasn't gone into enough was the SOLDIER desertion. From the way CC starts, nobody knew it was going to happen until Genesis left. However, Banora is a long way away from both Wutai and Midgar. How is Genesis supposed to force SOLDIERs over there unless he majorly messes with their orders or something over a long period of time? The fact that Shin-Ra thinks it's a desertion means they don't know whats really going on either. You'd think someone would have noticed something...

Thats why I label Genesis unintentionally unsympathetic because his destructive selfish actions have hurt people and destroyed the lives of his friends as well.For whatever reason Square just think he is redeembale just because he saw the goddess at the end of the game.

I think the reasoning is more that because Genesis is redeemable, he saw the Goddess: he wouldn't have seen the Goddess if he wasn't redeemable. Keep in mind that the Goddess/Planet has a different definition of good/redemption then we do. This is the same being that designed Chaos/Omega, released the WEAPONs in the OG and for whom wiping out humanity could be a good thing in the long run. And doing things that hurt people isn't a good gauge to use to determine who's a "good guy" in anime/manga. It's the person's response to that that really counts and we don't know what Genesis' response will be yet.

 

[jazzflower92]

Yeah,they lied to Genesis but does that really justify with him killing them and all the citizens of Banora.It would have been understable if he had mostly gotten mad at his adoptive parents but he crossed the line when he murdered them.

With the goddess thing I thought that was badly put in excuse for his redemption.They could have written something better than because Minerva appeared before him.Its just a lazy way of excusing all this actions that happened in the game.

 

[Splintered]

I so hate Genesis that I'm not sure if I can form a coherent post about why I dislike him so much.

If Genesis is to be removed from Crisis Core's storyline then I believe there's a chance for the story to be more compelling than the lame, boring tale that it is. It's not a guarantee, but what I'm trying to say is that a large chunk of CC is related to his whiny bitching and apple holding and poem reciting (so deep). There are other ways to show Shinra's wrongdoings and how it affects every character than watching some hero wanna-be whining like a diva.

I don't really have a solid story formed in my head, just a few ideas here and there, but if I were to write CC's story all over again, I can imagine myself keeping most of the characters, including Hollander, but NOT Genesis.

I'd rather focus on Angeal, a firm believer of SOLDIER honor, who feels wronged and ultimately turns against Shinra, breaking Zack's heart and making them enemies, but at the same time causing Zack to question his loyalty and SOLDIER pride and whatnot. Because that part of the story actually evoked some emotion in me other than boredom from LOVELESS recitals or frustration over not being able to skip cutscenes of some bitch in red leather.

I wish there was a way to thank this multiple times because yes. Everything is yes.

He's so poorly written and his dialogue is painful to listen to that even though I would normally call for a rewrite, I think he's such a trainwreck it would have been better to write him out all together. Focus the internal struggle with Angeal, who has a more personal connection with Zack, reinvent Shinra as the main protagonist, and use that extra time to write on Zack's struggle on the road with Cloud. It doesn't need to be an epic struggle, the game shined best when it was Zack dealing with his inner torment.

And part of this is bitterness towards the addition to Genesis in the reactor scene and the addition to the goddess that messes with the mythology.

And sorry Force, normally I agree with you but I'm with jazz and Tres on this, I think Genesis was meant to be redeemed. It just was so horribly done it wasn't even hinted at until the last few minutes of the game, the "Genesis's dream is actually to eat apples with his friends," the final conversation with Zack, him getting to see the Goddess- getting cured- and the look of vulnerability on his face, he doesn't have to face any major consequences for his actions, and the fact he's described as waiting to protect the planet in DoC.

imo they set him up as almost sympathetic and redeemed to go and do good things, but they did it so late in the game and he's so disconnected from the audience it doesn't work.

Genesis tends to rank pretty high in the "FF characters I hate most" from what I've seen, but I've met one or two fans.

I'm going to guess that it's because a couple of fans really liked the "Sephiroth-Genesis-Angeal" doomed friends angle. In general, it's a trope that people easily latch onto.

And there might people people who buy into the "poor Genesis he was messed with and all he wants to do is live" even though it's terribly done. But I've met tones of people who absolutely believe that Sephiroth is a good guy somewhere deep, deep.... deeeeep down. So eh.

Also he had that really cool scene. With that awesome sword.

It's worth the embed.

 

[Unlucky]

I couldn't agree more.

I would have preferred to see Angeal turn against Shinra because of its crimes against humanity, maybe specifically due to things he had witnessed in Wutai, rather than because his best friend was on a selfish rampage and he felt he had to help. In actualy fact, though, Angeal never turns against Shinra - he isn't fighting on Genesis' side, he's trying to stop him and bring him to his senses. Several times characters refer to Angeal "planning to return" once the Genesis problem has been sorted out.

The "three heroes" things from Loveless doesn't help matters any, narrative-wise.

YES. Angeal's character had a lot of potential, but it was lost because of the direction the story took, mainly him being a secret experiment. Psssh. He could have easily been a normal 1st Class SOLDIER (the standard mako-bathed, Jenova cell-infused type, not someone from the Project G bullshit), who isn't as strong as Sephiroth, but has the compassion, friendliness, and generally the genuine emotions he lacks (because I refuse to buy the 'Sefiros had friends and wasn't a completely bad person' shit).

But no, he disappears early on in the game even before his personality and relationship with Zack were sufficiently explored. It was made clear, but done sloppily imo. His character was reduced to

Spoiler: this.

Genesis on the other hand.. I really have no idea how to tweak his character to make him more likeable. Because being pompous and selfish are all there is to him. Whether it's lazy wirting on SE's part because he's based on someone popular enough to be liked, I don't know. The whole game is tailored to fit his story. Even the clones. You really don't have interaction with them. They're mindless, they don't fight for anything other than his cause. Of all the people taking issue with Shinra, whether it's an outside organization, a whole nation, their very own people.. you have to fight THAT. The game is making it clear that Genesis is the heart of the story. Imo, he even outshone Zack.

LOVELESS is one big lame attempt to paint the 'Sefiros and BFFs' story in tragic light.

 

[jazzflower92]

Yeah and the thing of wanting to eat apples with his friends really seems hollow because of the fact Genesis cruelly taunted Sephiroth about his origins while expecting him to give his cells so he can heal.

I really prefer Angeal and felt they wasted a perfectly good character with him.In fact I would have been happy if it was about Angeal rebelling against Shinra and could have been the main antagonist who believes that Shinra is corrupt and needs to be taken down which would have put him in conflict with both Sephiroth and Zack.He probably could have teamed up with a Wutain group who want revenge against Shinra for ruining their country.Now that I think about it would have been a great homage to Apocalypse Now if they did that instead.

 

[ForceStealer]

And sorry Force, normally I agree with you but I'm with jazz and Tres on this, I think Genesis was meant to be redeemed. It just was so horribly done it wasn't even hinted at until the last few minutes of the game, the "Genesis's dream is actually to eat apples with his friends," the final conversation with Zack, him getting to see the Goddess- getting cured- and the look of vulnerability on his face, he doesn't have to face any major consequences for his actions, and the fact he's described as waiting to protect the planet in DoC.

Firstly, how do we know he was redeemed? In the scene where he sees Minerva, she averts her eyes and he falls away. I always thought that scene was her NOT accepting him? As for being cured, he did find that giant ball of...magic. He could have just done that himself rather than being "redeemed."

But even if the Planet/Minerva did redeem him, well, everything Obsidian said:

Keep in mind that the Goddess/Planet has a different definition of good/redemption then we do. This is the same being that designed Chaos/Omega, released the WEAPONs in the OG and for whom wiping out humanity could be a good thing in the long run. And doing things that hurt people isn't a good gauge to use to determine who's a "good guy" in anime/manga. It's the person's response to that that really counts and we don't know what Genesis' response will be yet.

The Planet != Good. The Planet was going to let Meteor destroy at LEAST Midgar, and maybe all of humanity, and it took Aerith's intervention to stop it. I've suggested before, that maybe Genesis was only woken after Dirge because, with the destruction of Omega, the Planet is fresh out of Weapons and Genesis will be a new one.
I still don't see how you could reconcile Genesis being a good guy now with his appearance in Dirge.

By being defeated by Zack, Genesis is able to regain the pride he had as a SOLDIER, and with Sephiroth and Angeal now dead, he decided that it is up to him, who has being left behind, to protect the world. And so, in order to prepare for the day when a crisis threatens the world, Genesis seals himself in the flooded chamber on his own volition.

That is not the same Genesis we saw in the game.

Now, maybe "protecting the world" will be a bad thing, but it is nonetheless different from what he was trying to do during Crisis Core, where he was an utterly selfish villain who declared "If I go, the world goes with me."

Maybe he hasn't been redeemed, but it was they -- not we -- who put that on the table. We agree that he hasn't been redeemed and are calling bullshit on the whole idea put forth that he has been.

I don't see anything about redemption in that quote. He "regains the pride he had as a SOLDIER." Okay. In every other game, SOLDIER are the bad guys, no matter how much pride they have.
And of course he's not the same? He's cured now. He has no reason to "take the world with him." He wasn't TRYING to destroy the world in Crisis Core, he was trying to cure himself, consequences be damned. Well, he's cured now, and deliriously obsessed with this goddess, whom he has now seen. So he decides to protect HER and only her. Which as I've already addressed does NOT make you a good guy.

He could have easily been a normal 1st Class SOLDIER (the standard mako-bathed, Jenova cell-infused type, not someone from the Project G bullshit), who isn't as strong as Sephiroth, but has the compassion, friendliness, and generally the genuine emotions he lacks (because I refuse to buy the 'Sefiros had friends and wasn't a completely bad person' shit).

I very much like your suggestions for how Angeal should have been. But I would say that the "Sephiroth wasn't a completely bad person" is not somethign Crisis Core made up. That was always the case. He was a polite, if aloof, military man. To suggest he NEVER had a single friend ever sounds even more clichéd and animu-dramatic to me.

LOVELESS is one big lame attempt to paint the 'Sefiros and BFFs' story in tragic light.

I give them credit, however, for keeping the story of Loveless the same as it was told by Cid in FF7. Because really, they could have changed it completely to suit their needs and no one but us would have noticed. Always thought that was cool.


It's not like I love Genesis. He was way too important when the whole game should have just been framed over the backdrop of the Wutai War. Getting such a huge contingent of SOLDIERs under his sway is silly and he was way too omnipresent to have been swept under the rug.
BUT I don't think it's fair to accuse them of trying so hard to get us to sympathize with us just because some pimply fangirls say he was a "weawy nice guy!" You said yourself, Splintered, that fangirls say that about Sephiroth. And even Kitase (or one of them, don't remember) said people that sympathized with Sephiroth had no idea what they were talking about.
Crisis Core wanted us to sympathize with Zack and Angeal. Genesis was just a stock villain.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I don't see anything about redemption in that quote. He "regains the pride he had as a SOLDIER." Okay. In every other game, SOLDIER are the bad guys, no matter how much pride they have.
And of course he's not the same? He's cured now. He has no reason to "take the world with him." He wasn't TRYING to destroy the world in Crisis Core, he was trying to cure himself, consequences be damned. Well, he's cured now, and deliriously obsessed with this goddess, whom he has now seen. So he decides to protect HER and only her. Which as I've already addressed does NOT make you a good guy.

"Redemption," as defined by Oxford, is "the action of saving or being saved from sin, error, or evil." How was Genesis not redeemed when he goes from "the world goes with me" to "I is gonna protect da world! Goddess su!"?

So, yeah, it's not really necessary that he be a "good guy" now. He was redeemed. Without earning it and without deserving it. And that's bullshit in light of no follow-up being planned for this horse manure to demonstrate whether he actually learned anything, whether he's going to face some consequences, whether he continues to get off scott free, whether he's even more self-deluded than before, whether he takes an extreme interpretation of "protecting the world," etc.

Horseshit. Period.

For the record, I agree with you that he's the Planet's final Weapon.

 

[jazzflower92]

I agree with Hawkeye because that is the main problem with Genesis is that he is redeemed without really earning or even deserving it.He never was punished for his actions that got people hurt or killed.In fact I think it was inexcusable that he was let off scott free for burning down Banora,killing all of its citizens,and his adoptive parents.At that point he should have not been shown any sympathy at all but seen as the selfish,prick who harm anyone who stands in his way.

 

[Unlucky]

I very much like your suggestions for how Angeal should have been. But I would say that the "Sephiroth wasn't a completely bad person" is not somethign Crisis Core made up. That was always the case. He was a polite, if aloof, military man. To suggest he NEVER had a single friend ever sounds even more clichéd and animu-dramatic to me.

He did mention that he always felt different. The 'no friends evarr' is cliche, yes, but it supports how the OG shows his character-- disconnected from everyone. He may be capable of normal human interaction, even respect and adoration (for Gast), but as for real, heartfelt relationships, I don't think so.

Crisis Core shat on that image. Not only is Sephiroth friends with people similar to him, he is now boring and monotonous. Nowhere in the game did I feel his coldness/ arrogance (his taunts during the Canon fight doesn't count to me-- they're his bff's and that's likely bantering).

 

[ForceStealer]

He did mention that he always felt different. The 'no friends evarr' is cliche, yes, but it supports how the OG shows his character-- disconnected from everyone. He may be capable of normal human interaction, even respect and adoration (for Gast), but as for real, heartfelt relationships, I don't think so.

Crisis Core shat on that image. Not only is Sephiroth friends with people similar to him, he is now boring and monotonous. Nowhere in the game did I feel his coldness/ arrogance (his taunts during the Canon fight doesn't count to me-- they're his bff's and that's likely bantering).

Having felt different does not preclude him from having friends. Indeed, if he was never friends with anyone, how would he know he felt different? By the same token, I wouldn't see his relationship with Genesis and Angeal as "real, heartfelt relationships."

I have people that I would call friends that I wouldn't consider myself intimately familiar with or maybe not even "heartfelt." We just get along and, if asked, I would call them a friend. He seemed cold and arrogant to me. The nicest thing he does in the whole game is recognize that Zack wants to check on his girlfriend in Midgar. Which is nice, yeah, but it was memorable to me for that fact.

"Redemption," as defined by Oxford, is "the action of saving or being saved from sin, error, or evil." How was Genesis not redeemed when he goes from "the world goes with me" to "I is gonna protect da world! Goddess su!"?

Because whatever that thing was in Banora cured him. He is almost certainly going to attribute that to Minerva, and so he'll protect her in exchange because he's crazy. Why is that redeemed.

So, yeah, it's not really necessary that he be a "good guy" now. He was redeemed. Without earning it and without deserving it. And that's bullshit in light of no follow-up being planned for this horse manure to demonstrate whether he actually learned anything, whether he's going to face some consequences, whether he continues to get off scott free, whether he's even more self-deluded than before, whether he takes an extreme interpretation of "protecting the world," etc.

Exactly, his story isn't over. You can't say whether he was redeemed or whatever because we have no idea what happens to him next. If he wakes up and starts killing people because their bad to the Planet/Minerva, will you still say he was redeemed? Or just that he's the same misguided selfish dick, he just slept for 5 years?

I agree with Hawkeye because that is the main problem with Genesis is that he is redeemed without really earning or even deserving it.He never was punished for his actions that got people hurt or killed.In fact I think it was inexcusable that he was let off scott free for burning down Banora,killing all of its citizens,and his adoptive parents.At that point he should have not been shown any sympathy at all but seen as the selfish,prick who harm anyone who stands in his way.

Well, Zack beat the shit out of him, but besides that, no one took pity on him except Zack (and aforementioned pimply fangirls). And that's just cause Angeal wanted so badly to save Genesis that Zack did too. But you can't say he got off scott free yet because we have no idea what's to become of him. He certainly looks like he's up to no good at the end of the Dirge. Cloud may well have to kill him. If that happens, will you be fine with him?

 

[jazzflower92]

Actually I would be very happy if Genesis was killed off.

 

[ForceStealer]

...let me rephrase the question then. Will you still think we were supposed to sympathize with him?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Having felt different does not preclude him from having friends. Indeed, if he was never friends with anyone, how would he know he felt different? By the same token, I wouldn't see his relationship with Genesis and Angeal as "real, heartfelt relationships."

Sephiroth refused to go after them, didn't he? He cared enough that he wouldn't take a mission to hurt them.

Because whatever that thing was in Banora cured him. He is almost certainly going to attribute that to Minerva, and so he'll protect her in exchange because he's crazy.

Exactly. He was saved. Which is part of the definition.

Why is that redeemed.

See above.

But also because redemption denotes a shift in ideology or behavior. That's what it refers to. That's what happened to him.

I don't see why you're trying so hard to get past the very definition of a word in favor of what I can only assume must be some connotative understanding or colloquial usage?

Exactly, his story isn't over. You can't say whether he was redeemed or whatever because we have no idea what happens to him next.

So Cecil wasn't redeemed until the end of FFIV? Spike from "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" wasn't until the last episode of that show? Or the final episode of "Angel"? Celes until the end of FFVI?

If he wakes up and starts killing people because their bad to the Planet/Minerva, will you still say he was redeemed? Or just that he's the same misguided selfish dick, he just slept for 5 years?

He'd still be the same misguided dick, but not selfish, no. And, yes, he would still be redeemed by definition.

Well, Zack beat the shit out of him, but besides that, no one took pity on him except Zack ...

The main character and nicest guy ever ...

...let me rephrase the question then. Will you still think we were supposed to sympathize with him?

Yes. The main character/nicest guy ever taking pity on a villain makes you ask "Why?" -- especially when that same character demonstrated a willingness to kill someone (Sephiroth) he had more respect for and a closer personal relationship with earlier when the situation called for it.

See also: Angeal.

When our POV character takes sympathy on someone, it's hard to imagine that we, the player, aren't supposed to experience a thought process about it. I can't imagine why we wouldn't, in fact. That's deliberately getting out of the passenger seat of the car driven by our POV character.

If you feel compelled to do that because something is incongruous or doesn't ring true, it points to bad writing, not a different intent.

 

[jazzflower92]

Yes. The main character/nicest guy ever taking pity on a villain makes you ask "Why?" -- especially when that same character demonstrated a willingness to kill someone (Sephiroth) he had more respect for and a closer personal relationship with earlier when the situation called for it.

See also: Angeal.

When our POV character takes sympathy on someone, it's hard to imagine that we, the player, aren't supposed to experience a thought process about it. I can't imagine why we wouldn't, in fact. That's deliberately getting out of the passenger seat of the car driven by our POV character.

If you feel compelled to do that because something is incongruous or doesn't ring true, it points to bad writing, not a different intent.

Yes,that is one part I really found contradicting is the fact that Zack was willing to kill Sephiroth even though had grown a little closer to the guy but trys every time he encounters Genesis to find a way to redeem him.In my opinion it makes Zack look like he has double standards and no real justified reason to save this guy .

 

[ForceStealer]

Exactly. He was saved. Which is part of the definition.

See above.

But also because redemption denotes a shift in ideology or behavior. That's what it refers to. That's what happened to him.

So, let me get this straight. So I have some kind of debillitating disease. I resolve to cure it by any means necessary. Those means end up involving hurting and killing scores of people, it also eventually leads me to being cured. So then, I resolve to kill in the name of whatever cured me. Doing nothing less abhorrent than I was doing before.

You're telling me I was redeemed and to be sympathized with?

So Cecil wasn't redeemed until the end of FFIV? Spike from "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" wasn't until the last episode of that show? Or the final episode of "Angel"? Celes until the end of FFVI?

Um, yeah they were. Cecil literally went from darkness into light. Celes went from fighting for the villains to fighting against them.

Genesis went from wantonly killing in the name of curing himself to doing something else evil in the name of something else. Rewatch Dirge's secret ending and seriously tell me he's about to do ANYTHING other than evil.

As for Zack, I find it hard to believe that, if he had at any point had Sephiroth at his mercy that he would have just run him through on the spot. He failed to save anyone else. And this fact CLEARLY ate at him by the end of the game. And felt he had a chance to at least save one of them. Hell, the game makes a point of showing where he resolves that he's going to save Genesis instead of kill him. Not because he feels Genesis did something to deserve it, but because Zack wants to save SOMEONE.

 

[Lord Noctis]

As for Zack, I find it hard to believe that, if he had at any point had Sephiroth at his mercy that he would have just run him through on the spot. He failed to save anyone else. And this fact CLEARLY ate at him by the end of the game. And felt he had a chance to at least save one of them. Hell, the game makes a point of showing where he resolves that he's going to save Genesis instead of kill him. Not because he feels Genesis did something to deserve it, but because Zack wants to save SOMEONE.

To add onto this, Zack did initially try to talk with Sephiroth inside the Mako Reactor. But the guy just brushed him off. In fact, Sephiroth was the one who swung first.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

So, let me get this straight. So I have some kind of debillitating disease. I resolve to cure it by any means necessary. Those means end up involving hurting and killing scores of people, it also eventually leads me to being cured. So then, I resolve to kill in the name of whatever cured me. Doing nothing less abhorrent than I was doing before.

You're telling me I was redeemed and to be sympathized with?

Did your behavior change? Did you shift from serving yourself at the cost of everything, including the world, to serving someone else?

Then, yes, you were redeemed.

Whether you are to be sympathized with has more to do with whether we're talking about a story of fictional events. Also, how that narrative is presented, and how you're presented in relation to other figures within that narrative.

Your more real-world analogy doesn't apply here because we're talking about fiction. You know as well as I that the medium something is communicated through and how it's communicated within that medium carry as much meaning as the content of the communication.

Hell, communication theorists argue that the manner of the communication carries more meaning than the communication itself (e.g. a note tied to a brick and flung through someone's window).

Um, yeah they were. Cecil literally went from darkness into light. Celes went from fighting for the villains to fighting against them.

Genesis went from wantonly killing in the name of curing himself to doing something else evil in the name of something else.

How are you not seeing the ideological shift here when you're highlighting it yourself?

As for Zack, I find it hard to believe that, if he had at any point had Sephiroth at his mercy that he would have just run him through on the spot.

I think he would have, honestly. Cloud damn near bisected the man. He was barely able to stand up. What does Zack say? "Finish Sephiroth off." No hesitation.

He failed to save anyone else. And this fact CLEARLY ate at him by the end of the game. And felt he had a chance to at least save one of them. Hell, the game makes a point of showing where he resolves that he's going to save Genesis instead of kill him. Not because he feels Genesis did something to deserve it, but because Zack wants to save SOMEONE.

That's not really speaking to the matter of sympathy, though.

In any case, I don't disagree with any of what you said in that paragraph. Zack was a moron to let Genesis stay alive.

If Sephiroth was too great a threat to continue to go free, then a man of comparable power who killed far more people, expressed a desire to kill even more, and expressed even greater narcissism should definitely not have been.

Biggest blunder in FF hero history.

 

[AvecAloes]

So, let me get this straight. So I have some kind of debillitating disease. I resolve to cure it by any means necessary. Those means end up involving hurting and killing scores of people, it also eventually leads me to being cured. So then, I resolve to kill in the name of whatever cured me. Doing nothing less abhorrent than I was doing before.

You're telling me I was redeemed and to be sympathized with?

Did your behavior change? Did you shift from serving yourself at the cost of everything, including the world, to serving someone else?

Then, yes, you were redeemed.

In this hypothetical scenario, his behavior didn't change. The motivations for his behavior might have, but his actual actions didn't. I don't see that as being "redeemed" at all.

Genesis went from wantonly killing in the name of curing himself to doing something else evil in the name of something else.

How are you not seeing the ideological shift here when you're highlighting it yourself?

Because the action didn't change? I honestly don't see how someone's point of view changing qualifies them as being redeemed, especially if they continue to do the same things for hack reasons.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I don't see how changing from an utterly selfish prat -- one who would raze the world if they could no longer be part of it -- to someone selfless in their service of something/someone else can be called anything but redemptive. That's, like, a classic example for goodness' sake.

He may remain misguided, but, yes, redemption in a case like this has everything to do with motivation and intention.

 

[Unlucky]

Having felt different does not preclude him from having friends. Indeed, if he was never friends with anyone, how would he know he felt different? By the same token, I wouldn't see his relationship with Genesis and Angeal as "real, heartfelt relationships."

We may never know how 'deep' exactly is the friendship between the three of them. But we sure have an idea it was real. He showed concern over Genesis's failure to heal. He devices a plan to 'fail' to eliminate Angeal and Genesis. He's troubled that they've defected and joined Hollander.

I don't see how that is not real friendship.

The OG doesn't mention him being that close to anybody. Additions/ retcons could be done to improve the story/ character, not botch them.

Actually I would be very happy if Genesis was killed off.

Him being killed off acknowledges that he exists. I'd rather they erase his existence in the canon.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Actually, it's implied in DoC that everyone's forgotten he existed.