X's Big, Very tl;dr Remake Thoughts & Development Analysis (Here be Spoilers)

InterfaceLeader

Pro Adventurer
Thank you for this amazing thread.
It made me feel a lot better about the ending of the game. (I adored the remake right up until Rufus, when I needed to turn to an internet guide to help me beat him--the first boss in the game I couldn't figure out how to beat on my own--and Motor Ball which I literally could not do on normal difficulty. And then the whole last section was just boring boss after boring boss with no context. And I do NOT understand how Cloud goes from struggling to fight Rufus to suddenly being able to take down giant supernatural entities that control fate... and some version of Sephiroth.) The whole ending is a super harsh tonal change and it makes so much more sense knowing that it's unfinished.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
I'm really glad that it's been so helpful! I like being able to help provide some extra insight into how all this stuff gets done, and where things feeling off is definitely reflective of where the development had to shift rather than an issue with the game's direction in general. It's definitely a weird thing to experience, because without knowing specifics it's hard to put your finger on what feels off about it, other than just that it does.

Here's to hoping that the big update in the future that I'm hoping for comes with the big improvements that it seems like they wanted to provide!



X :neo:
 

Theozilla

Kaiju Member
Thank you for this amazing thread.
It made me feel a lot better about the ending of the game. (I adored the remake right up until Rufus, when I needed to turn to an internet guide to help me beat him--the first boss in the game I couldn't figure out how to beat on my own--and Motor Ball which I literally could not do on normal difficulty. And then the whole last section was just boring boss after boring boss with no context. And I do NOT understand how Cloud goes from struggling to fight Rufus to suddenly being able to take down giant supernatural entities that control fate... and some version of Sephiroth.) The whole ending is a super harsh tonal change and it makes so much more sense knowing that it's unfinished.
To be fair Cloud seemingly struggling with Rufus compared to the final bosses is also standard gameplay and narrative separation/dissonance. Some sidequest monsters can be harder gameplay/strategy-wise than main narrative bosses.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
To be fair Cloud seemingly struggling with Rufus compared to the final bosses is also standard gameplay and narrative separation/dissonance. Some sidequest monsters can be harder gameplay/strategy-wise than main narrative bosses.

That fight is definitely designed to leave Cloud on the edge, because of Tifa coming to save him after. However, even just Rufus being a 1v1 Boss fight already achieves its own difficulty spike totally unrelated to the huge tonal & hard counter shift with the mechanics.

Like I mentioned before, a game's Sidequest Monsters & Bosses have the built-in ability to be harder, because they're allowed to be bypassed, there's less guarantee about when they'll be completed, and anything they teach the player is explicitly optional. That all means that they don't have to scale as smoothly along the main game's narrative path, so they're a place where a sudden difficulty spike and a potential Game Over risk is part of the expected flow.

It's why I detailed what's broken about those fights, but also how they ought to work once they're more polished. :monster:




X :neo:
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
I'd appreciate it if you could channel some of the energy you've yoinked into posts in this thread that could go on the front page, X. Just about every post of yours in here could be its own article :monster:

I definitely intend on doing it. I always like to start out sort of binge-info-dumping my brain onto the forums first to channel a ton of focus to sorting through the raw data in my head, and just slowly compiling and picking over it, because that alone takes ages. Then with responses and whatnot, it helps sort out which points are the most solid, which need help, and which are just extraneous or gratuitous detail. From there, I've been sorting out how exactly I'd want to approach speaking about something like that in a more formal presentation.

At this point, I'm still not sure the best angle to take when talking about the development of the game, but I do really want to write up an article on it first. I think that there's a lot of value in cracking open a look at what development is like, and helping people understand and be more forgiving about things, especially when they're a work in progress. It's really tough to walk the fine line of, "They told you that they're selling you the version of the game that they wanted to make, but it's still definitely not the version of the game that they wanted to make" while also being clear that no one is getting ripped off here, and it's just the way the world works, and doing that is its own task, but that doesn't mean it's that way forever.

There're plenty of people who just complained about the XV DLC expansions with the, "Well then why didn't they just finish the game, instead of giving us an unfinished product" which is the sort of thing where I know I need to get into making that clear with context, but it's hard to know how much to lean in on the various important points to cover, and how many of them need to be presented as a group because of how they feed into each other. At the moment, they're loosely broken down in my head into:
  • "Why this happened"
  • "Why not to be mad"
  • "How I can tell"
  • "What they were going for"
  • "What they managed to deliver"
  • "What to expect in the future"
Especially as someone who works doing QA, I want to find a way to touch on the topic that's got enough background around the time, effort, and polish that the game has where it's clearly been completed, and talk about the regions where they haven't been and show why I think they're still going to be and what they're likely to become. It's tough to know how much to touch on the PS5 optimizations, and complexities around the release window compression, or the difficulty of Red XIII as a non-human playable character, or the party customization and friendship options, or the details around boss progression gameplay workflow designs for the bosses where the issues exist, or where to place those things so that they make sense, and so that none of them takes up too much of the content.

As an article/articles, I don't want it to be TOO tl;dr where things get lost in the weeds, but also not too much of an overview that it all feels like just projecting because I didn't enjoy something to the average reader. That's also why I've been wrestling with what sort of things I could start reviving the "The Potential Of" series with, since I do want to revisit a lot of those topics and talk about what we got as a way to go into the fun detail, and start more speculation, and if it would make sense to make a sort of introductory article about the topic as a whole, and split it into a few different follow-ups, or maybe a different article series of some kind.



If you or anybody else has thoughts on that front, I'd be very up for hearing opinions. :awesomonster:




X:neo:
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
As an article/articles, I don't want it to be TOO tl;dr where things get lost in the weeds, but also not too much of an overview that it all feels like just projecting because I didn't enjoy something to the average reader.

...

If you or anybody else has thoughts on that front, I'd be very up for hearing opinions. :awesomonster:

Maybe leave out much of the detail about M.O.T.O.R. Seems like as many as not -- if not more -- found it fun and appropriately challenging.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
It's definitely not one I wanted to spend time on officially, especially since it's not connected to the game's core battle system at all. It's also the same reason why I've actively not mentioned it in the last several things I've written despite it being within that "boss fight" workflow.




X :neo:
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
Ok, I think that I FINALLY have my point of entry: https://nordic.ign.com/news/36053/f...o-keep-developing-small-chunks-at-a-fast-pace

When asked about how many parts the remake will comprise of, Kitase said: "We have a rough idea on that, but it’s not been completely decided yet. It’s impossible to talk about this right now. It seems that many people think it will become a trilogy."

"It all depends on how many parts we make,” said Nomura. “If we separate it into bigger chunks it will take more time, but if we take smaller portions it can be done on a shorter span. Personally, I would like to deliver it fast.”

So, I think I'm gonna kick off with this as the entry point for how Modular Game Updates work with PS5, and that will give me a reason to touch on the PS5 development work that the team put in for the sound, and will let me touch on Loading Zones & Textures as a QA thing, and also cover what sort of natural updates that the game will have just by running on a PS5.

From there, I can talk about how the segments of Remake are already broken up into smaller storytelling segments like this with the groupings of chapters. I can cover how the work that they've done is built to naturally and modularly add in updates, and build off of the same codebase for continuing the game. Then I can hit on why all of these things means they'd want to shift away from doing bigger releases like this given their developmental model, and the struggles that come from segmenting the game into a larger chunk the way that they did.

That will give me a clean vector to hit on the issues in the final chapters and how they're actually using a lot of things to cover up an incomplete presentation (different types of QA bugs, testing phase bosses, and level design issues), how there are mechanics that are in place for a variable team composition that are covered, and player navigation sections get covered up in cutscenes. That will help point to that seems like they're going to be revamping things around Chapter 16 onwards with Red XIII as playable. This will also act as a way to do some testing internally for what a more modular development cycle would look like for something that's around 3 chapters long since that's also a very ideal and justifiable price model (Remake = $60 & 18 Chapters = $3.33/chapter = $10 per 3 Chapter Expansion), and successfully working from a similar model to what FFXV was doing with their modular DLC expansions, but on an even larger scale.


I think that I can probably draft up all of this tl;dr in the next couple of days, and split it out into a 3-Page article that covers each of those sections thoroughly, but not overly exhaustively, so that we have something that's solidly a unique perspective to TLS about all that that might be able to draw some eyes and attention.



X:neo:
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
It’s while thinking of Wutai specifically that I became uneasy with big releases, because if they want to expand on it like I suspect they do, I was thinking they might have troubles. But I can see a specific Wutai extension working like a charm on the other hand so, this made me think that it’s also in their train of thoughts even if they haven’t yet decided their way.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
I've got a draft saved that's... 9,536 words. And it's like... 4 am here now. :mon:
I've still gotta go and get a bunch of relevant images to help soften up the endless text wall, break it up into pages (it's under headings at the moment).
Then once it's split as pages, expand anywhere that feels like it needs it (it's not nearly as tl;dr as the breakdowns here) and then have someone help me proof read it, but yeah.

Probably have it done by Friday. :awesomonster:




X :neo:
 

Wol

None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
AKA
Rosarian Shield
I don't trust them to expand those smaller sections without padding.

They should add more new event scenes to cover the holes instead of making long dungeon segments, that's all
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
Welp, now it's only split into two pages. The first is all context, and the second is the big breakdown & conclusion. It's 12,143 words, with a whole host of images and sectioned out formatting to break up all of the text walls. Gonna see who I can rope into proof reading that monstrosity now, but it's basically what I wanted it to be at this point.

Thanks again for just participating in the thread and encouraging all of this madness. :awesomonster:



X :neo:
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
I made one notable adjustment, which is adding in a little more context around the reasoning for the copy/pasted content in Chapter 16/17.

"It seems like Cloud should get to keep the Portable VR Headset after completing Chadley's story in Chapter 16, since it works as an updatable, post-game content delivery system that you could potentially access from the Menu. The team still needed an easy way for getting some form of this content to players in the current setup where none of the party selection work is completed yet. Copying and segmenting it into a separate chapter means that they could safely strip out all of the other pieces connected to Red XIII, and make a version of this that still works without his character being playable, that could still be easily accessed from the post-game by being inserted at the start of Chapter 17."




X :neo:
 
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