The Final Fantasy VII LTD Thread (Round 4)

[Raquelborn]

Man, I guess I'm the only one that thought Cloud and Tifa's relationship started in FFVII, xD. I mean, after the Lifestream Scene and Highwind Scene, it seems kind of obvious to me.

Those events establish they have feelings for one another but having your feelings revealed and entering an official relationship are different. Cloud pro-actively telling Tifa he wants to be with her in a way different from before was really where they entered the relationship stage, if you see what I mean.

 

[Joker]

^Lol, I thought your avatar was a cactus at first.

So did I. xD

Tbh, I think the Highwind scene establishes the beginning of their relationship; if they're knocking boots, like most people assume (and with good reason), then it definitely does, because even if it's only sexual in nature, it's the beginning of a sexual relationship, which then becomes "relationship" relationship. If they're not, then they're spending what is, for all they know, their last night alive with each other, lying in each other's arms. Which is something you would do with the one you love, and not someone who's just a childhood friend who saved you from your own psychosis by jumping into a river of souls.

 

[Celes Chere]

Those events establish they have feelings for one another but having your feelings revealed and entering an official relationship are different. Cloud pro-actively telling Tifa he wants to be with her in a way different from before was really where they entered the relationship stage, if you see what I mean.

But we already knew they had feelings for one another. Just look at their child hood, and the promise. And then before Cloud falls into Aerith's church, Tifa says there's still so much she has to tell him, and he says "I know...". Then we see Cloud dressing up like a woman to save her. The entire time during the whole Don Corneo thing, Cloud's focus was all on Tifa. It was like that a good chunk of the game, in my opinion. So I could already see the feelings that were there. What the LS scene did was show they had a bond stronger than just a crush. Tifa knew who the real Cloud was, put him together piece by piece, was one of the center focuses of his mind, and was the only one who could help him. At the very end, Cloud even says "Tifa, let's go home." I always took this line as being very special. Then during the Highwind scene, they just seem to seal the deal. Cloud even says nothing has changed from when they were children, that they have no where else to go now, and encourages Tifa by saying that everything will be alright.

CoT, Cloud says he wants to start a new life with Tifa, and will be okay as long as she's by his side. He even says he'll be around to remind her of herself, when she's feeling down. So that's even furthering their relationship.

AC/ACC they are already in a solid relationship, Cloud is just afraid of hurting his family and feeling worthless. Trying to find a cure for Denzel, and being afraid of losing his happiness. This relationship is NOT still developing into being actually official. It already appears to be very official to me, aka canon. I don't get why people think that, no offense. Think what you wish and all, but I think they were already in a relationship before AC/ACC, and even before CoT.

 

[looneymoon]

imo regarding Cloud's feelings toward Aerith, it's pretty pointless arguing since there's no established "canon" for what exactly he felt for her. It's always been my stance that the players feelings for Aerith = Cloud's feelings. Let's be honest here, the game freaking encourages you to project onto Cloud, especially (and arguably exclusively) in disc 1.

Either way it doesn't negate a Cloud/Tifa ending.

As for Aeris' feelings for Cloud: they were confused yeah. But she goes on a date with him. And on that date she basically tells him she wants to know him better. I haven't been on a lot of dates recently, but if a dude told me that on the first date I'd consider it a good sign that he's up for date #2

Plus, I think that Aeris being willing to get past Zack and pursue a serious romantic relationship with Cloud was a good way of tying up her arc. It's actually quite fitting in the sense that one of her main personal conflicts was resolved right before she died. Not to mention adds to the tragedy of her death by emphasizing the fact that she was unaware of her death. It's actually set up in a way that you'd expect Cloud and Aeris to hook up after that point (assuming you didn't get the Tifa date and didn't know that she dies prior to playing).

/delurks thread.

 

[Vendel]

imo regarding Cloud's feelings toward Aerith, it's pretty pointless arguing since there's no established "canon" for what exactly he felt for her. It's always been my stance that the players feelings for Aerith = Cloud's feelings. Let's be honest here, the game freaking encourages you to project onto Cloud, especially (and arguably exclusively) in disc 1.

Either way it doesn't negate a Cloud/Tifa ending.

As for Aeris' feelings for Cloud: they were confused yeah. But she goes on a date with him. And on that date she basically tells him she wants to know him better. I haven't been on a lot of dates recently, but if a dude told me that on the first date I'd consider it a good sign that he's up for date #2

Except that no date has been made the canon one. Although realistically only the T or A one make sense.

And the date scene along with all your "player control" on the first disk is utterly meaningless. A "red herring" if you will.

 

[looneymoon]

Except that no date has been made the canon one. Although realistically only the T or A one make sense.

Perhaps. But I don't see how it's not legitimate to use it to analyse a character's motivation. Optional pieces of dialogue can still offer important information about the character, even if the event itself is not canon.

And the date scene along with all your "player control" on the first disk is utterly meaningless. A "red herring" if you will.

I would argue that the nature of a video game narrative forces you to take into account the aspect of player control, given the very nature of the medium. I don't think it does fair justice to the video game story telling to treat its structure as you would say a book or movie. So no, I don't think it's meaningless but I do agree with the red herring assessment to an extent.

 

[Joker]

Cloud even says nothing has changed from when they were children

That one line from the game was proof enough for me.

Although realistically only the T or A one make sense.

LIAR.

It's clear that the B date is the canon one. I mean, c'mon...crossdressing, and then to not sweep Tifa off her feet and get to making dem babies immediately?

Yeah, he's gay.

Plus, how often does one guy take another on a date and act in a play for him? That right there is a special kind of love.

 

[Splintered]

Arguing whether or not Cloud and Tifa started a romantic relationship during the Highwind scene or the start of CoT is a pretty ridiculous thing because although it was years apart for us, it was about one day for them.

Regardless of when they started holding hands, the day they actually started rebuilding their lives together was the start of CoT. Before that, priority was saving the world rather than trying to figure out if they wanted to live together. Even Tifa doesn't begin to think about starting her life over until Cloud says it. From there on, their circumstances and relationship changes, Cloud indicates their relationship has taken a major step since saying that now they really have each other.

The only problem is that their relationship started on shaky ground. And no, this has nothing to do with their feelings for each other. They could have the burning love a million meteors and they still would have hit roadblocks.

CoT, hell, all of novellas of On the Way to a Smile show that the next two years are a personal battle just as much as anything else. Yes, there are Cloti implications in CoT, but that's not all that was going on. Tifa was trying to find her place in the world AND she was trying to get over her major guilt AND she was trying to make a new home, AND she was trying to build a new business AND she was trying to raise Marlene AND she was trying to figure out her relationship was with Denzel while raising him AND she was trying to make her family work as a unit. And then she was trying to become an emotional pillar for Cloud plus trying to maintain their relationship. Which would have worked but Cloud failed as the other piece of the puzzle.

This isn't because he didn't love her, it's because while Tifa actually succeeded in everything above (except those that required Cloud), Cloud did not. He couldn't rise above his feelings of guilt and didn't understand his relationship to him family all that well. That's why the first sign of stress (geostigma), Cloud broke down- he has the emotional perseverance of a sock. If you can't get passed some of your deeper, personal shit, your relationships will suffer. His relationship with his friends suffered, with his family, and definitely with Tifa.

That's why AC/C was so important. It was because this was his Case of ___ in which he gets over his personal issues so that he can start a stronger, more healthy relationship.

 

[Raquelborn]

But we already knew they had feelings for one another. Just look at their child hood, and the promise. And then before Cloud falls into Aerith's church, Tifa says there's still so much she has to tell him, and he says "I know...". Then we see Cloud dressing up like a woman to save her. The entire time during the whole Don Corneo thing, Cloud's focus was all on Tifa. It was like that a good chunk of the game, in my opinion. So I could already see the feelings that were there. What the LS scene did was show they had a bond stronger than just a crush. Tifa knew who the real Cloud was, put him together piece by piece, was one of the center focuses of his mind, and was the only one who could help him. At the very end, Cloud even says "Tifa, let's go home." I always took this line as being very special. Then during the Highwind scene, they just seem to seal the deal. Cloud even says nothing has changed from when they were children, that they have no where else to go now, and encourages Tifa by saying that everything will be alright.

CoT, Cloud says he wants to start a new life with Tifa, and will be okay as long as she's by his side. He even says he'll be around to remind her of herself, when she's feeling down. So that's even furthering their relationship.

AC/ACC they are already in a solid relationship, Cloud is just afraid of hurting his family and feeling worthless. Trying to find a cure for Denzel, and being afraid of losing his happiness. This relationship is NOT still developing into being actually official. It already appears to be very official to me, aka canon. I don't get why people think that, no offense. Think what you wish and all, but I think they were already in a relationship before AC/ACC, and even before CoT.

I think you misread my post. My stance is that Cloud's feelings for Tifa were rediscovered during the lifestream sequence, then under the Highwind he shows her that he feels the same way "without words". But by this time they aren't strictly official. After all, it was the night before they could potentially die, hardly a time to talk about being together in a 'relationship' relationship.

It's only once Cloud says to Tifa that he wants to be with her in a way different from before that he's confirming he wants to be in a proper relationship with her. I just see a fine line between knowing you have feelings for one another and actually being in a relationship, and I think Cloud crossed it right there.

I really don't know where you got the AC/C stuff from. :S

 

[Celes Chere]

I TYPED UP A WHOLE RESPONSE AND ACCIDENTALLY DELETED IT FML.

For the AC/ACC thing, sorry for the confusion, I meant people not specifically you, have that idea and I don't get it. xD

For the rest, I don't think you have to want to start a family to be in an official relationship, lol. Same when it comes to the end of the world, tons of events led up to the HighWind scene that show that these two are in love. And if you're in love, doesn't that right there make it official? Cloud says nothing has changed, that Tifa's opinion matters most, AND he thanks her especially above everyone else (including Aerith). I don't see how it's not clear that he loves her. xD I think that CoT shows us a relationship that is growing. Moving a step up from boyfriend/girlfriend and becoming a family. So it's like married, but not. X_x I'm not making sense, lol. They're no longer two 'kids' in love. They're adults now, ready to become even more serious. Long before this though, it seemed like they were official to me.

/RUSHED POST CAUSE I AIN'T TYPIN' THAT AGAIN

 

[Raquelborn]

I TYPED UP A WHOLE RESPONSE AND ACCIDENTALLY DELETED IT FML.

IT SUCKS WHEN THAT HAPPENS D:

For the rest, I don't think you have to want to start a family to be in an official relationship, lol.

That's not what I took Cloud to mean. I figured he was honestly talking about just being with her. The concept of an actual family doesn't even come up until Barrett leaves the bar and Marlene brings it up.

Same when it comes to the end of the world, tons of events led up to the HighWind scene that show that these two are in love. And if you're in love, doesn't that right there make it official?

No, not really, surely. There's a difference between acknowledging mutually that you're in a relationship and both of you knowing he can call you his girlfriend/you can call him your boyfriend etc. without batting an eyelid, and simply knowing you're in love with one another.

Cloud says nothing has changed, that Tifa's opinion matters most, AND he thanks her especially above everyone else (including Aerith). I don't see how it's not clear that he loves her.

I never said it isn't clear he loves her. :/

I think that CoT shows us a relationship that is growing. Moving a step up from boyfriend/girlfriend and becoming a family. So it's like married, but not. X_x

I agree.

 

[Celes Chere]

So what you mean by 'relationship' relationship, is like... a very serious business one like they have in CoT and beyond? xD The more mature relationship?

AMIRITE? D;

 

[Joker]

I wouldn't call it serious business, but yeah, that's the general idea. xD

A relationship that's going somewhere...how's that?

 

[Raquelborn]

So what you mean by 'relationship' relationship, is like... a very serious business one like they have in CoT and beyond? xD The more mature relationship?

AMIRITE? D;

Not more mature, just more... concrete? Shown? ... Official?

Like someone could point at them in the street or in a room and go "They are a couple, don't you know?" as opposed to "They obviously care about each other a lot but haven't made it official yet."

To be honest I thought the distinction was pretty clear.

 

[Winter]

tbh I've never found Cloti to be "very serious business". It's all just sort of hinted at and then dropped and just... never really focused on.

Outside of Ultimanias Cloti is barely there at all.

also ACC did NOT have a Zack/Aeris ending, that is the stupidest shit I have ever heard and the next person that says that will get my foot up their ass. I don't think Zack and Aeris could even SEE each other.

 

[Max Payne]

also ACC did NOT have a Zack/Aeris ending, that is the stupidest shit I have ever heard and the next person that says that will get my foot up their ass. I don't think Zack and Aeris could even SEE each other.

ACC had a Zack/Aeris ending.

 

[Raquelborn]

tbh I've never found Cloti to be "very serious business". It's all just sort of hinted at and then dropped and just... never really focused on.

Outside of Ultimanias Cloti is barely there at all.

We get a highly implicit sex scene (which I completely missed by the way, so it kind of failed at being implicit) which is more than any other FF couples I can think of...

Screw it, we just need a kissing scene.

~* Heed my prayers, Square Enix *~

 

[Winter]

We get a highly implicit sex scene (which I completely missed by the way, so it kind of failed at being implicit) which is more than any other FF couples I can think of...

I don't really think that's what happened.

I have said this before, and I will say this again: they did not, within the bounds of canon, fuck under the Highwind. Square Enix can fuck about and joke all they want, but within the actual canon I don't think them having furious monkey sex was really what happened.

ACC had a Zack/Aeris ending.

fighting my urge to use reactionimage.jpg

 

[Vendel]

I don't really think that's what happened.

I have said this before, and I will say this again: they did not, within the bounds of canon, fuck under the Highwind. Square Enix can fuck about and joke all they want, but within the actual canon I don't think them having furious monkey sex was really what happened.

What is it about Cloud and Tifa having sex that you find so off-putting?

Also Aerith and Zack are reunited in AC/C.

 

[crack]

Outside of Ultimanias Cloti is barely there at all.

Well, yeah. I mean, Cloud wasn't completely at his best throughout most of the game, and in the movie he was struggling with his past and his capability to forgive himself. I don't think Cloud and Tifa really need to show that their relationship is strong; I mean, we've seen them struggle, but I think Case of Tifa really does its job in showing the solidity of their relationship when they're not out saving the world or when Cloud's not sulking off. And even if it hasn't been completely shown, it's implied well enough for people to make a conclusion. I like the subtle hints.

And not to mention I don't think I'd want to see Cloud and Tifa being all lovey-dovey. I mean, I would not take that shit seriously; besides, actions speak louder than words. We don't know what Tifa and Cloud did under the Highwind, but I think it's obvious that they did something.

 

[Winter]

What is it about Cloud and Tifa having sex that you find so off-putting?

I don't find it off-putting, I find it out of character.

edit: I don't find them having sex out of character. I find them unexpectedly having sex on a bunch of pointy rocks outside while their friends watched to be completely out of character. Not to mention they hadn't even fucking kissed or anything.

Also Aerith and Zack are reunited in AC/C.

Haha, whatever buddy. Zack is Lifestream goo and Aeris is a dead Cetra in the Lifestream. That's not grounds for romance unless you're a creepy shipper.

it's like C/A spiritsex. It doesn't make sense, is out of character, and is a really stupid thing to try to wedge into the ~meaning~ of the story.

 

[Max Payne]

fighting my urge to use reactionimage.jpg

Hey, it's the only way you'll realize such statements are completely impotent and meaningless on the web.

 

[Vendel]

I don't find it off-putting, I find it out of character.

edit: I don't find them having sex out of character. I find them unexpectedly having sex on a bunch of pointy rocks outside while their friends watched to be completely out of character. Not to mention they hadn't even fucking kissed or anything.

Please tell me you are trolling. Because that "explanation" looks to be regurgitated from pinker logic.

Haha, whatever buddy. Zack is Lifestream goo and Aeris is a dead Cetra in the Lifestream. That's not grounds for romance unless you're a creepy shipper.

No one said they were fucking in the afterlife.

 

[Winter]

Hey, it's the only way you'll realize such statements are completely impotent and meaningless on the web.

i learned my lesson

 

[Winter]

Please tell me you are trolling. Because that "explanation" looks to be regurgitated from pinker logic.

sorry to cockblock your fantasy of Cloud and Tifa making sweet, babymaking love under an airship with horrible, terrible logic.