The Final Fantasy VII LTD Thread (Round 4)

[Ryushikaze]

For Ryu:

I believe they were starting a relationship, yes. CoT to me seemed very much a test of the waters for the two of them; they wanted to be in a relationship, but weren't quite sure what it meant for them. I don't count FF7 as their obstacle because FF7 wasn't really about them. It wasn't a love story. While it was a sub plot, a big one, it was hardly the focus of the game and it was really about Cloud understanding and accepting himself and, of course, stopping a mutated crazy bastard from killing them all. CoT/AC, however, is a far more personal story about Cloud and his relationships.

But if they've started a relationship, then why isn't CoT/AC/C the hurdle IN that relationship?
FF7 really is the obstacle they face which brings them together. I mean, CoT is definitely about two people who've decided to face life together- maybe they rushed into it- and then facing an obstacle to that- literally, one of them withdrawing so his family won't have to face what he's facing.
I get the feeling what we're disagreeing on is the outside definition, like we both agree they have 40,000 XP, but can't agree if the next level comes at 38 or 50K.

As for the Cloud vs. Zack thing: I'm not saying she knew Cloud in and out, but she did see the real Cloud through Zack. At first she was startled at the difference between them, but sees that it's Cloud she wants. She even goes so far as to say they are two different people that just happen to look alike. She cannot make this statement, compare the two of them, or make a choice without at least seeing a bit of the real Cloud first. But that's exactly what she's doing.

Aerith can't see 'It's Cloud she wants' if she doesn't really know Cloud, if she still needs to get to know 'the real him.' And she doesn't need to see much at all of Cloud to know he's just copying Zack, and that she's been focusing on that similarity, as she admits she does.

Also I'm not sure why you're bringing up that Aeris was important to everyone. I know this. However she does not have the same relationship with all of those people that she does with Cloud -- their relationship is significant in a completely different way. Besides, if Sephiroth is asking Cloud what is "most important" and the three things he sees are his best friend, his family, and then Aeris, that means she's special to him, be it in friendship or romance. Either way, he's seeing people he loves, not just people he kinda likes.

But Zack and the Children are also in there. And those are definitely not romantic relationships, but also incredibly important to Cloud.

However if you're seriously going to try and argue with me that if you asked Barret or Vincent or Cid the top three most important people to them Aeris would pop into their heads, then I just give up, because I can't argue against such ridiculousness.

Barret and Cid, no. But Yuffie just might. Tifa definitely would. As would Marlene. BTW, Aerith's probably not in Cloud's top three. Top five, sure, but Cloud's family is almost certainly nos 1-3. Cloud himself is probably 20th.
And Aerith lives in in the hearts of all her friends.

The only problem is that their relationship started on shaky ground. And no, this has nothing to do with their feelings for each other. They could have the burning love a million meteors and they still would have hit roadblocks.

CoT, hell, all of novellas of On the Way to a Smile show that the next two years are a personal battle just as much as anything else. Yes, there are Cloti implications in CoT, but that's not all that was going on. Tifa was trying to find her place in the world AND she was trying to get over her major guilt AND she was trying to make a new home, AND she was trying to build a new business AND she was trying to raise Marlene AND she was trying to figure out her relationship was with Denzel while raising him AND she was trying to make her family work as a unit. And then she was trying to become an emotional pillar for Cloud plus trying to maintain their relationship. Which would have worked but Cloud failed as the other piece of the puzzle.

This isn't because he didn't love her, it's because while Tifa actually succeeded in everything above (except those that required Cloud), Cloud did not. He couldn't rise above his feelings of guilt and didn't understand his relationship to him family all that well. That's why the first sign of stress (geostigma), Cloud broke down- he has the emotional perseverance of a sock. If you can't get passed some of your deeper, personal shit, your relationships will suffer. His relationship with his friends suffered, with his family, and definitely with Tifa.

That's why AC/C was so important. It was because this was his Case of ___ in which he gets over his personal issues so that he can start a stronger, more healthy relationship.

I don't think Cloud's issue was technically 'personal perseverance of a sock' but of 'attacking the wrong problem' Remember, Cloud felt he needed to atone for his guilt to deserve his happiness, but had no clue how to do it, unlike Tifa, and when he thought he had a way, he got better, joined the family, etc. etc. Then it all went pear shaped, he thought he was being punished, and he wanted to keep the punishment from hitting anyone else. Cloud had perseverance, he just persevered in the wrong way.

tbh I've never found Cloti to be "very serious business". It's all just sort of hinted at and then dropped and just... never really focused on.

Outside of Ultimanias Cloti is barely there at all.

And if C/T's barely there at all, then C/A's nonexistent.

also ACC did NOT have a Zack/Aeris ending, that is the stupidest shit I have ever heard and the next person that says that will get my foot up their ass. I don't think Zack and Aeris could even SEE each other.

Except the bit where they talk to each other, walk away together, he almost puts his hand on her ass, the paired symbolism in the postcredits...

We get a highly implicit sex scene (which I completely missed by the way, so it kind of failed at being implicit) which is more than any other FF couples I can think of...

Screw it, we just need a kissing scene.

~* Heed my prayers, Square Enix *~

They're 2nd most progressed of main party couples, as they have kids, but the kids are not biological (Tied for first are Cecil/Rosa, Yang/Wife, and Wakka Lulu. Cid/Hidegarde are tied with Cloud and Tifa)

I don't really think that's what happened.

I have said this before, and I will say this again: they did not, within the bounds of canon, fuck under the Highwind. Square Enix can fuck about and joke all they want, but within the actual canon I don't think them having furious monkey sex was really what happened.

Within the bounds of canon, it is entirely possible they had sex or made love on that night, and the creators making 'nudge nudge' jokes that they did is not hurting the possibility.

I don't find it off-putting, I find it out of character.

edit: I don't find them having sex out of character. I find them unexpectedly having sex on a bunch of pointy rocks outside while their friends watched to be completely out of character. Not to mention they hadn't even fucking kissed or anything.

Pointy rocks? What pointy rocks?
And again, 'end of world sex' it's a cliche, even.

Haha, whatever buddy. Zack is Lifestream goo and Aeris is a dead Cetra in the Lifestream. That's not grounds for romance unless you're a creepy shipper.

They're both lifestream goo. That doesn't mean the ending of AC/C isn't ZA. It doesn't have to mean they're still going at it, just in remembrance.

it's like C/A spiritsex. It doesn't make sense, is out of character, and is a really stupid thing to try to wedge into the ~meaning~ of the story.

But we're not trying to wedge this as an active romance. Just as a fond farewell to.
It's like how the end of FF8 was in part an affirmatively Laguna/ Raine ending.

 

[Joker]

Also the sex must have been really horrible if they don't even want to sleep together afterwards.

Just because they love each other doesn't mean it can't be awful.

O GOD FEELINGS OF SELF-DOUBT NOW

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

 

[crack]

Well unless Cloud called Aerith's name during the sex, I don't think it could have been that bad considering Tifa was still with him the morning after.

 

[Max Payne]

You know, you can have sex and still have doubts, space issues, communication issues regarding your true feelings, commitment issues and a general lack of honesty between two people.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Yeah every time I hear the "WELL THEY DON'T ACT LIKE THEY BANGED" I want to bang a head against a wall (and accuse the person who said it of being a virgin)

Sex (at least, sex just by itself) doesn't...really work that way, sorry! Sex in itself isn't some magical 'fix everything love potion'. It's P in Vagee, and that's just about it. Everything that happens past that is entirely on the two individuals, the situation, and timing.

 

[Raquelborn]

Cloud clearly has his own bed in his room/office, so it's pretty logical to assume he sleeps there.

The response I've seen to this has been that that room is not his bedroom because it lacks any personal touch, the bed is a piece of shit (it really doesn't look that comfy, I admit) and Cloud probably only sleeps their when he's back late from deliveries.

Otherwise I agree with you, but I'm not so sure any more because...

----

In relation to this, you know when Tifa sighs at the open doorway opposite Cloud's office when his phone is ringing at the beginning of AC? Who's bedroom is that? It's not the children's because their door is closed.

Discuss.

 

[Max Payne]

You realize I'm a virgin right Mog?

 

[Max Payne]

Raquel wtf is wrong with your sig

 

[Cat Rage Room]

You realize I'm a virgin right Mog?

A smart one.

 

[Zee]

You know, you can have sex and still have doubts, space issues, communication issues regarding your true feelings, commitment issues and a general lack of honesty between two people.

I'm not even arguing against that. I'm actually not even arguing against Cloud and Tifa having sex; it's a legit possibility, but I just don't think it's the only thing that could have happened. My point is that the point of the scene should not so heavily depend on whether or not they had sex. CoT leads into the Cloti relationship just fine no matter what you thought happened.

I really have no idea why this is such a sore spot for so many people.

 

[Raquelborn]

Raquel wtf is wrong with your sig

It was blank the last time I looked.

EDIT: Mog has defaced it.

 

[Max Payne]

I'm not even arguing against that. I'm actually not even arguing against Cloud and Tifa having sex; it's a legit possibility, but I just don't think it's the only thing that could have happened. My point is that the point of the scene should not so heavily depend on whether or not they had sex. CoT leads into the Cloti relationship just fine no matter what you thought happened.

Well, the scene is made much more emotional and dramatic if they did copulate. The point of the scene is they confess to each other, the sex is the follow through. It's more of a matter of narrative than it is HURR MY SHIP NEEDS SEX, at least for me.

I really have no idea why this is such a sore spot for so many people.

I don't think anyone here is sore, except maybe Vendel. Can never tell with that creature.

It was blank the last time I looked.

EDIT: Mog has defaced it.

It was ginormoose

 

[Ryushikaze]

Yeah, Raq, if Mog hadn't Baleeted your sig, I'd have done it myself. It was WAY too big.

And yes, Cloud and Tifa can have sex and still have all sorts of problems. Hell, them having sex just means another problem down the road. 'Does he not think I'm attractive any more' and such.
But yeah, Cloud's office has a cot, but did my dad's old office. What it doesn't have is any sort of place for clothes, a closet, or any sense of being lived rather than worked in.

 

[Zee]

Well, the scene is made much more emotional and dramatic if they did copulate. The point of the scene is they confess to each other, the sex is the follow through. It's more of a matter of narrative than it is HURR MY SHIP NEEDS SEX, at least for me.

I can see that.

But I think it also has more emotional significance like that if, like some of the viewers here, you thought Cloud/Tifa's relationship started earlier. It makes a lot more sense looking at it from that POV, because then it's like years and years of waiting and then finally relief when they're together.

But personally I just don't see them as terribly close until the Lifestream, so I guess that's why it's harder for me to see it that way.

 

[Eerie]

We're back to "the office where tires are left there is where he usually sleep" and "SE did not confirm that they had sex, it was just an understanding moment under the Highwind"?

I feel getting back to old versions already, and this one just started.

Also, people who think they can sleep with tires in a room are fools, I tell you, fools. Those things stink. Heck, is there even a wardrobe in there? I can't remember.

For what I recall, we had settled for "the room where Cloud stays sometimes when he gets back home late or at that time when Tifa told him to go in his room". The one he used to sleep in when Barret was living there, but that he left at some point. Because hell, who wants to see Tifa transform into Edward Cullen? I don't D:

As for the Highwind scene, others have said it already. They toned down the scene, meaning the presentation, not what happened. Risqué line implies something sexual, after all. And that's Tifa's line in the actual game.

 

[Zee]

Also, people who think they can sleep with tires in a room are fools, I tell you, fools. Those things stink. Heck, is there even a wardrobe in there? I can't remember.

Doesn't Cloud go off on deliveries for like, weeks at a time? If his job keeps him away, there's no reason to decorate his room.

And maybe he likes the smell of tires. Don't judge him.

also why would he need a wardrobe the guy has like two outfits.

 

[Ⓐaron]

I wouldn't assume it was definitively canon that Cloud and Tifa slept together if the creators hadn't described the scene as "risqué". But I'd still think it was pretty likely. The way they act immediately after the fact seems exactly the way I'd expect two people who'd just fucked for the first time after years of mutual attraction to act. The first time is often clumsy and awkward, especially if both of you are inexperienced (as there is strong reason to believe both of them probably were, seeing as the story never mentions either of them ever having had previous romantic attachments). The fact that Tifa is embarrassed and afraid someone may have been watching is a further clue. And really, just because all the tensions aren't resolved after they fuck doesn't mean anything, even in fiction. In Battlestar Galactica, there's probably more tension between

Spoiler

Starbuck and Apollo

after they fuck than there was before.

 

[Max Payne]

But personally I just don't see them as terribly close until the Lifestream, so I guess that's why it's harder for me to see it that way.

That's mostly because they had a big wall(his mental instability) between them keeping them from being close, that Tifa was afraid of breaking down because of what would happen to Cloud. Cloud's feelings didn't change ever since he was a kid, and Tifa still felt something for him, but Cloud's fucked up head, and the subsequent constant fucking by Sefiros was keeping them apart.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

That's mostly because they had a big wall(his mental instability) between them keeping them from being close, that Tifa was afraid of breaking down because of what would happen to Cloud.

Yeah, keep in mind that Cloud is...a pretty weird dude to begin with.

and the subsequent constant fucking by Sefiros

 

[Splintered]

I don't think Cloud's issue was technically 'personal perseverance of a sock' but of 'attacking the wrong problem' Remember, Cloud felt he needed to atone for his guilt to deserve his happiness, but had no clue how to do it, unlike Tifa, and when he thought he had a way, he got better, joined the family, etc. etc. Then it all went pear shaped, he thought he was being punished, and he wanted to keep the punishment from hitting anyone else. Cloud had perseverance, he just persevered in the wrong way.

That's part of it but not all of it. Cloud is pretty notorious for being a social retard, and whether or not he really deserves that label is debatable but the core of it is- when crap happens he either bulldozers through it or totally falls apart (and consequently, when he bulldozers through it without much thought he tends to fall apart later).

Look at what happened when Marlene was captured in AC/C. They pretty much spelled out what he needed to do, "Go to the Enchanted Forest, you are the only person strong enough to fight them and win." And Cloud went, "uh... I want to... talk to Rufus instead" which made Reno and Rude facepalm and forced Tifa to confront him.

Granted this was when he was in the shitter already but the point remains is that he's got a mess of problems and confronting things is one of them. He gives mixed signals and tends to retreat into himself if things are going bad. Tifa has to ask him where he stands on her, and then later Marlene (yes it was just a way to cover up her original question but I have a feeling it was still an issue)- to where he admits he can't communicate/connect with her. He had problems even before he attracted Geostigma in CoT- which was only temporarily offset by finding Denzel.

Cloud's never been an emotional pillar by anyone's standard. Add to the fact that just before FFVII Zack practically had to wipe his drool when he was in a mental stupor and that severely arrested any emotional growth.

It's not just misdirection, it's the lack of developed emotional tools, his mental strength, his need to dodge confrontation, etc.

 

[Raquelborn]

The way they act immediately after the fact seems exactly the way I'd expect two people who'd just fucked for the first time after years of mutual attraction to act. The first time is often clumsy and awkward, especially if both of you are inexperienced (as there is strong reason to believe both of them probably were, seeing as the story never mentions either of them ever having had previous romantic attachments). The fact that Tifa is embarrassed and afraid someone may have been watching is a further clue. And really, just because all the tensions aren't resolved after they fuck doesn't mean anything, even in fiction.

Pretty much this. As someone who hadn't picked up the hint that they had got it on under the Highwind, the way the acted the day after (Tifa at least) really bewildered me. Who cares if they saw you asleep on his shoulder? What's the big deal?

 

[Ryushikaze]

Doesn't Cloud go off on deliveries for like, weeks at a time? If his job keeps him away, there's no reason to decorate his room.

And maybe he likes the smell of tires. Don't judge him.

We've found Zee's fetish, guys.

also why would he need a wardrobe the guy has like two outfits.

Well, the kids get them, and they don't even have two!

I wouldn't assume it was definitively canon that Cloud and Tifa slept together if the creators hadn't described the scene as "risqué". But I'd still think it was pretty likely. The way they act immediately after the fact seems exactly the way I'd expect two people who'd just fucked for the first time after years of mutual attraction to act. The first time is often clumsy and awkward, especially if both of you are inexperienced (as there is strong reason to believe both of them probably were, seeing as the story never mentions either of them ever having had previous romantic attachments). The fact that Tifa is embarrassed and afraid someone may have been watching is a further clue. And really, just because all the tensions aren't resolved after they fuck doesn't mean anything, even in fiction. In Battlestar Galactica, there's probably more tension between

Spoiler

Starbuck and Apollo

after they fuck than there was before.

Especially in the original series!

That's part of it but not all of it. Cloud is pretty notorious for being a social retard, and whether or not he really deserves that label is debatable but the core of it is- when crap happens he either bulldozers through it or totally falls apart (and consequently, when he bulldozers through it without much thought he tends to fall apart later).

Look at what happened when Marlene was captured in AC/C. They pretty much spelled out what he needed to do, "Go to the Enchanted Forest, you are the only person strong enough to fight them and win." And Cloud went, "uh... I want to... talk to Rufus instead" which made Reno and Rude facepalm and forced Tifa to confront him.

Granted this was when he was in the shitter already but the point remains is that he's got a mess of problems and confronting things is one of them. He gives mixed signals and tends to retreat into himself if things are going bad. Tifa has to ask him where he stands on her, and then later Marlene (yes it was just a way to cover up her original question but I have a feeling it was still an issue)- to where he admits he can't communicate/connect with her. He had problems even before he attracted Geostigma in CoT- which was only temporarily offset by finding Denzel.

Cloud's never been an emotional pillar by anyone's standard. Add to the fact that just before FFVII Zack practically had to wipe his drool when he was in a mental stupor and that severely arrested any emotional growth.

It's not just misdirection, it's the lack of developed emotional tools, his mental strength, his need to dodge confrontation, etc.

I think the need to dodge confrontation is new for Cloud- his previous reluctance wasn't 'avoiding confrontation' but 'leaving them out of it' same basic effect, different motivation.

Pretty much this. As someone who hadn't picked up the hint that they had got it on under the Highwind, the way the acted the day after (Tifa at least) really bewildered me. Who cares if they saw you asleep on his shoulder? What's the big deal?

Yeah, there's nothing remotely embarrassing for Tifa in being seen cuddling, given her previous expressions towards Cloud in front of the whole party- They'd expect it. It's the private, personal moment- full on sex or 'simply' something risque, that makes her turn red.

 

[Splintered]

I think the need to dodge confrontation is new for Cloud- his previous reluctance wasn't 'avoiding confrontation' but 'leaving them out of it' same basic effect, different motivation.

I honestly think he had this when he was younger as well. His anger towards himself for not protecting Tifa had him fighting with other people rather than confront Tifa was probably the earliest example. Similarly, Cloud chose not to reveal himself when he went to Nibelheim so he wouldn't have to face Tifa after failing to become a soldier.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I honestly think he had this when he was younger as well. His anger towards himself for not protecting Tifa had him fighting with other people rather than confront Tifa was probably the earliest example. Similarly, Cloud chose not to reveal himself when he went to Nibelheim so he wouldn't have to face Tifa after failing to become a soldier.

The former was misplaced aggression- he beat up others since he couldn't beat up himself, and the latter, I'm not entirely sure it's being unable to face her as unwilling to ruin her hopes, or a mix of both. From what we see of him during his Shinra days, though, he's really not avoidance minded as a whole.
Maybe confronting Tifa is his blind spot, he can't really face up to her, nor can he withstand her, which has worked for the best when she does confront him, since it's with his interests in mind.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Especially in the original series!