The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Octo]

Idk I thought he showed a genuine interest in Tifa's feelings on their date. But that could just be me.

@4.25 onwards.

Well kind of, he at least expresses some sort of curiousity about what shes saying, but I don't think he really has an inkling y'know? Its the same kind of obliviousness(?) that he has on the Aerith date.

I just feel like if he'd had romance on his mind at all he would have said something definite.

 

[penandpaper]

why is a humorous motion in ff7 now hard evidence that cloud didn't want to go on the date

like tiff said that is as dumb as saying tifa forced him into the promise because she had to repeat herself

I didn't say she forced him, just that I question how interested he could have been given that he doesn't appear to be that eager to go. If we're going to assume things like that he's still interested when he reminds her that he's her bodyguard (And as I recall, she brings up the date, not him there. She's the one expressing the interest in the date. If he was that concerned about the date, why not bring it up while mentioning the bodyguard thing? Remind of her of it in case she'd forgotten which is possible given the stressful situation they're in at that moment. Just reminding her that he's her bodyguard wouldn't automatically connect to the fact that she promise a date. It could, but it wouldn't have to. What's important enough to Cloud to be brought up by him? He promised to be her bodyguard. What's important enough to her to be brought up by her? The date. She's interested and I don't think that anyone is denying this, but the question is was that what was on Cloud's mind or was he more concerned about keeping his promise?)

Nonetheless, he's not the one who keeps bringing the date up and he's not particularly eager when she comes to get him for it. It's not impossible that he's going along with her because she was so insistent about it. He does care about her and I don't think that he'd ever want to hurt her. You can care about someone without being romantically interested.

cloud is awkward and bad at expressing himself; again, this doesn't make him disinterested. he was perfectly fine with the date and several of the options on disk one are choosing one girl over the other

so yeah....there's some romantic interest one way or the other

i mean do you think his distance in case of tifa makes him disinterested too or?

I recall a few, but there really aren't that many that I recall (One choice I can recall is that when Marlene mentions that Aerith might like Cloud, the player can respond "Let's hope so". There are others that I'm sure I'm forgetting so there are some, but most of the affection points come about through arbitrary means and those choices between the girls are, as I recall (Please correct me if I'm wrong), always player choices. Is there an example where Composite!Cloud chooses Aerith over Tifa when we aren't controlling him or in any of the official sources that indicated that he does so in canon? I honestly don't know, but you're obviously better versed in the game universe then I am so I figured that I'd ask. Thank you in advance!

Also, growing distance because of trauma and guilt is not the same as disinterest, which is what's going on in Case of Tifa. Composite!Cloud isn't in the same frame as mine as post-game Cloud and, nonetheless, he actually does show romantic interest in Case of Tifa.

“'After this … I think I’ll be okay.' Cloud was silent for a long time before he spoke again. 'Because I have you this time.'
'You've always had me.'
'What I mean is kind of different,' Cloud answered with another smile."


If not romance, what is this different way given that they already know that they're friends? Especially following the Lifestream sequence and Highwind scene? The official sources indicate that he's expressed romantic interest in Tifa, so unless the argument is that he becomes disinterested as he becomes more distant (Which is possible, but not likely given that they return to living together after when Cloud's feelings of guilt have been dealt with), which is still not the same situation since he never expressed a canonical interest in Aerith that I can recall.


Again, is there a quote that mentions that he felt romantic interest in Aerith? Seriously, that would probably shut me up pretty quickly.

we do know is that he does have some lingering intense feelings based off of failing her based on the deal he made with her in the beginning

which started as a flirty joke and became really serious the more he cared about her

i don't see how it's unfair to assume real!cloud still has lingering emotions, but by AC that is such a moot point what does it matter if he's interested she's dead

Things we agreed on: Cloud cares for Aerith. That's pretty clear and I want to make sure it's known that I'm not arguing this point nor have I ever been. I'm disputing that the attachment is romantic, although a quote stating that it is will get me to quite down pretty quickly.

The flirting really seems to come from Aerith's end and not Cloud's as far as I can tell. That doesn't mean that he isn't willing to joke and tease with her, but I don't see much flirting from his end and when it comes to an actual show of romantic intent like the date, he's not exactly anxious to begin. He let's her shove him out the door, but he's a mostly passive participant.

Maybe I'm just looking at it from the wrong angle, but I'm just not seeing much romance between them. I'm sorry.

 

[Sikozu]

I agree that Cloud's experiences in the early game can't just have become void after he gets his head fixed, but do all the instances where you pick Cloud's reactions factor in? Which ways to respond to party members(mostly Aerith and Tifa)should be counted?

I personally have no problem with Cloud being attracted to Aerith. It would be weird if Cloud had zero interest in anyone but Tifa. I'm just curious about where player choices come in.

 

[Vendel]

But since you insisted... (and these are off the top of my head so if they may not be in order)

He has the option to be jealous over mentions of Zack. Optional or not, it's fucking there. Why would he be jealous if he wasn't attracted?

He has the option to declare "No way!" when asked if Tifa is his girl, a rather abrupt denial if there ever was one. Interpret that as you will, but it can be EASILY interpreted as wanting to establish his availability.

Cloud doesn't deny the deal for the date when in the cells at Shinra. Even with Tifa in his cell and Tifa gets miffed. Now would be a really good time to spit out "I never accepted". Again, interpret however you want, but it CAN be interpreted as continued acceptance.

There's a conversation with Marlene that ends with "I won't tell Tifa" (I can't recall the exact wording but it IS about Aerith and Cloud.)

He can and does go on a date with Aerith. Bad ass Soldier-boy won't get dragged anywhere he doesn't want to go.

It's early and I'm lazy. I'm sure there are more, but there you go. You can argue that you don't see things that way, and kudos, but the fact is that within the narrative these actions CAN be and (for the sake of continuity and logic) should be interpretedas signals of interest.

Attraction doesn't mean love. But to deny there was any attraction just makes people look like their shipper panties are bunched.

It's so obvious now.......

How about this? On disk one if you play the game a certain way you as the player can have an attraction to Aerith. This speaks nothing for those that played differently or Cloud himself.

 

[Zee]

imo the player choices are mostly for fun because in the end cloud himself says "everything is important" -- he doesn't really think in terms of placing anyone above anyone else but i mean, it is there to set up some sort of personal interest in cloud's love life

Again, is there a quote that mentions that he felt romantic interest in Aerith? Seriously, that would probably shut me up pretty quickly

uuugh this is the problem with people not gettin cloud/aeris

aeris herself doesn't even directly say she loves cloud when she was alive
the whole point is that they are developing feelings, not that these feelings are fully established

looking towards evidence of their mutual interest is in the accumulation of all their interactions -- cloud wanting to genuinely protect her, aeris trying to decide what she likes about cloud vs what she liked about zack, cloud's "but i'm...we're here for you" campfire line,

which is why i don't think it's a big thing if people personally don't like cloud/aeris, i only have a problem when someone acts like the idea of romance between them is so totally out of left field because it's not; SE clearly intended for some sort of mutual spark that was meant to die out early on but leave a huge hole

 

[Octo]

But with Aerith its unambiguous that she has a romantic interest in Cloud, but the sum total of Clouds interactions (optional dialogue aside) it is very vague. (for both girls over the course of disk 1)

I don't deny that Cloud probably found Aerith attractive, and liked her as a person. I wont deny that had she lived maybe something would have developed between them. But theres nothing between them to suggest love, and certainly not a 'love' that would last beyond death. Friendship definitely.

 

[Vendel]

imo the player choices are mostly for fun because in the end cloud himself says "everything is important" -- he doesn't really think in terms of placing anyone above anyone else but i mean, it is there to set up some sort of personal interest in cloud's love life

Well, if Cloud placed everyone on the same level then there would be no need for the distinction between his family and everyone else. Just saying.

 

[Sikozu]

If you subtract all the player-selected displays of attraction from Cloud to Aerith what's left that actually shows Cloud was attracted to Aerith? What is left doesn't seem to indicate that he was any more attracted to her than to the Costa del Sol beach babes("Nice view" and him chuckling and rubbing lotion on them).

 

[penandpaper]

imo the player choices are mostly for fun because in the end cloud himself says "everything is important" -- he doesn't really think in terms of placing anyone above anyone else but i mean, it is there to set up some sort of personal interest in cloud's love life

Player choices can be fun, but in terms of canon I don't think that they mean much. That's only my opinion though, which isn't worth much either.

uuugh this is the problem with people not gettin cloud/aeris

aeris herself doesn't even directly say she loves cloud when she was alive
the whole point is that they are developing feelings, not that these feelings are fully established

looking towards evidence of their mutual interest is in the accumulation of all their interactions -- cloud wanting to genuinely protect her, aeris trying to decide what she likes about cloud vs what she liked about zack, cloud's "but i'm...we're here for you" campfire line,

which is why i don't think it's a big thing if people personally don't like cloud/aeris, i only have a problem when someone acts like the idea of romance between them is so totally out of left field because it's not; SE clearly intended for some sort of mutual spark that was meant to die out early on but leave a huge hole

I never said that any romance between them was totally out of left field, but that I didn't necessarily see it that way and that it wasn't canon. It's certainly not out of left field to think that there could have been romance between the two, although I don't agree that there was any. I suggested that to prove canonical feelings that something more is needed. I don't care what anyone ships. Personally, I go back and forth on Cloud/Aerith as a pairing, but I thought this thread was about arguing canon. If we're arguing opinion then I'll stop. I'm not going to dispute your preferences. That would be silly. But it's statements like "SE clearly intended" that bother me. Did they or is that your reading of it? I didn't see a mutual romantic spark between the two and that's my interpretation. "Clearly intended" implies canon not preference and that's what I'm disputing. I don't agree that that's what is clearly intended, but I won't dispute your interpretation if that's what we're discussing.

I'm sorry if I upset you. That wasn't my intent.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

If you subtract all the player-selected displays of attraction from Cloud to Aerith what's left that actually shows Cloud was attracted to Aerith? What is left doesn't seem to indicate that he was any more attracted to her than to the Costa del Sol beach babes("Nice view" and him chuckling and rubbing lotion on them).

i was pretty sure him indicating he er no wait ha ha the party was there for aerith was 1. required and 2. indicative of attraction

 

[penandpaper]

i was pretty sure him indicating he er no wait ha ha the party was there for aerith was 1. required and 2. indicative of attraction

Or he was being a friend and it occurred to him after he said "I" that "We" might do Aerith more good since she's talking about how she's alone (As I recall anyway. Please do correct me if I'm wrong). Wouldn't she theoretically be more likely to feel less alone with more people to support rather then just knowing that one person is there for her? Composite!Cloud isn't exactly the most sociable of people either and might not necessarily think to automatically include the others.

I'm not arguing that you can't read that as romantic, but it doesn't have to be read as romantic. I thought that was a sweet scene, but it isn't inherently romantic in my opinion.

 

[Sikozu]

Yes, but what I'm asking is if that's enough. Without factoring in choices that are optional can a case be made for a

mutual spark that was meant to die out early on but leave a huge hole

There's a difference between thinking someone is attractive and being seriously attracted to them. It doesn't seem like enough to leave a huge hole without all the supplemental stuff.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Or he was being a friend and it occurred to him after he said "I" that "We" might do Aerith more good since she's talking about how she's alone (As I recall anyway. Please do correct me if I'm wrong). Wouldn't she theoretically be more likely to feel less alone with more people to support rather then just knowing that one person is there for her? Composite!Cloud isn't exactly the most sociable of people either and might not necessarily think to automatically include the others.

I'm not arguing that you can't read that as romantic, but it doesn't have to be read as romantic. I thought that was a sweet scene, but it isn't inherently romantic in my opinion.

i don't know, you'd sort of need to go back and specifically be like 'well see cloud just doesn't like people so of course he'd only think of himself initially' but honestly, the fact he included himself as someone who was there for aerith even given her developing friendships with tifa and other members of the party is indicative of something more romantic going on there

 

[Vendel]

i don't know, you'd sort of need to go back and specifically be like 'well see cloud just doesn't like people so of course he'd only think of himself initially' but honestly, the fact he included himself as someone who was there for aerith even given her developing friendships with tifa and other members of the party is indicative of something more romantic going on there

At this point in the story, with the group having traveled halfway around the planet battling Shinra, monsters and Sephiroth along they way, one would think it rather odd if Cloud excluded himself.

 

[penandpaper]

i don't know, you'd sort of need to go back and specifically be like 'well see cloud just doesn't like people so of course he'd only think of himself initially' but honestly, the fact he included himself as someone who was there for aerith even given her developing friendships with tifa and other members of the party is indicative of something more romantic going on there

I didn't say that my interpretation was canon or that the scene couldn't be romantic, but that it doesn't have to be. In fact, I explicitly said that the scene could be read either way, so unless there is something more to back your assertion that it is romantic (not "can be"), I still don't see why my interpretation is wrong and yours is right.

So, the others wouldn't have told Aerith that they was there for her had Aerith confided in them? Given the reactions between the part members, I find that unlikely. Why is that statement inherently romantic? Would it really be out of place if Tifa said it? Or Barrett? Or Yuffie? Or any of the others. Would it still be romantic if the others had said it?

I'm sorry. I may stop arguing this. I feel like I'm alienating people and I didn't want that. I haven't even been here that long and I feel like I'm already starting to make people dislike me.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

So, the others wouldn't have told Aerith that they was there for her had Aerith confided in them? Given the reactions between the part members, I find that unlikely. Why is that statement inherently romantic? Would it really be out of place if Tifa said it? Or Barrett? Or Yuffie? Or any of the others. Would it still be romantic if the others had said it?

if tifa said it of course it would be romantic. barret, probably not, he's too dedicated to the memory of his wife and his love for marlene. yuffie, maybe. she's kinda young though. red xiii? unlikely, especially given hojo's creepy idea of forced rape. im sure that would just bring around bad feelings all around.

this was the question right

 

[penandpaper]

if tifa said it of course it would be romantic. barret, probably not, he's too dedicated to the memory of his wife and his love for marlene. yuffie, maybe. she's kinda young though. red xiii? unlikely, especially given hojo's creepy idea of forced rape. im sure that would just bring around bad feelings all around.

this was the question right

If it's inherently romantic then it shouldn't matter who says it, right? The statement itself should speak for itself. Can we then agree that the statement is not inherently romantic, but could possibly be if you interpret it that way?

Yes, that was one of them. The other was would it be out of place for the others to tell them that they were there for her, given that they were all growing to be good friends? I obviously think that it wouldn't be out of place, but perhaps you disagree. The party members all seem to care for one another quite a lot.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

That "But I'm ... we're here for you, right?" line pretty much has to be read as indicating something "more," if only because that's the go-to thing in film and literature for a character to say when they realize they're giving too much about their feelings away. Just like the fade in the High Affection Highwind scene is classic cinematic language for "shit got freaky."

Yes, this is Composite Cloud (I guess that's what we're calling the fake personality?), but it's still Cloud at some point in the game.

I do think at least two official statements back this up. Kitase said Cloud wavers between the two heroines of FFVII, so there must have been feelings for both, and when Nojima talked about Cloud and Tifa's relationship as portrayed in Case of Tifa, he did ruminate on how things might have gone with Aerith had Cloud ended up with her instead. There'd be no need to do that if it was never even a possibility.

If anyone relatively new to the debate needs the word-for-word quotes, I'll get them.

Now, are there other ways of reading all these things? I guess. But we kind of expect those who wish Clerith were canon to just take straightforward stuff at face value, so why wouldn't we?

 

[Wolfmania]

I see what pen's arguing for, and doing a fine job of it, but still assuming that fake!Cloud was romantically attracted to the flower-girl in some level(which might be probable, to me at least), that continues to speak little of real!Cloud.

I think what Ryu said should be analyzed deeper. In multiple personality cases, one dominant persona comes from time to time knowing all the un-dominant one did and vice-versa. Since we clearly see that real!Cloud is ridding the backseat, It's obvious his observing of intereactions with his friends, and Aerith, deeply affected real!Cloud as a person, as he still has all those memories even after expunging fake!Cloud from his mind.

The problem is, as people have said, fake!Cloud and real!Cloud are diametrically different personalities, and you can't apply fake!Cloud's feelings, actions and reactions to how real!Cloud would feel, act or react.

So, in-order to delve deeper into the mystery of how real!Cloud intereacts with Aerith, simply look at AC/C. Unfortunately, I see no hint of romantic feelings between those two, but a theme that is visible is real!Cloud's immense projection of guilt for letting Aeris die.

 

[penandpaper]

That "But I'm ... we're here for you, right?" line pretty much has to be read as indicating something "more," if only because that's the go-to thing in film and literature for a character to say when they realize they're giving too much about their feelings away. Just like the fade in the High Affection Highwind scene is classic cinematic language for "shit got freaky."

Yes, this is Composite Cloud (I guess that's what we're calling the fake personality?), but it's still Cloud at some point in the game.

I do think at least two official statements back this up. Kitase said Cloud wavers between the two heroines of FFVII, so there must have been feelings for both, and when Nojima talked about Cloud and Tifa's relationship as portrayed in Case of Tifa, he did ruminate on how things might have gone with Aerith had Cloud ended up with her instead. There'd be no need to do that.

If anyone relatively new to the debate needs the word-for-word quotes, I'll get them.

Now, are there other ways of reading all these things? I guess. But we kind of expect those who wish Clerith were canon to just take straightforward stuff at face value, so why wouldn't we?

I suppose that I'm just not seeing romance in the scene. I'm not disputing those quotes. Cloud wavers between the two or has the potential to at least while in his fractured state and perhaps things would have gone well with Aerith (But this was still spoken in a hypothetical, which doesn't mean anything would have happened if she'd lived. Nothing could still have come of it. At least that's my recollection of the quote. Am I incorrect?) I accept those and I haven't disputed them, at least not that I recall, but I don't agree that the scene is necessarily romantic.

I'm not going to argue this point though. My personal interpretation is completely irrelevant to an overall discussion of canon. I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I'll just play spectator from now on and leave this to better debaters than I.

Edit: Thank you for putting up with me and debating with me. It was fun.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I do hope you'll continue to offer your insight here, PandP (I'm really enjoying this), but, yeah, I think the canon established by the overall text and metatext makes it clear that Cloud felt something for both and yet ended up with Tifa.

The metatext clarifies the text at times, so while it was always obvious that the fade in the High Affection Highwind scene indicated an intimate moment, the metatext in various places spelled it out clearly. In the same way, I think the "But I'm ... We're here for you, right?" thing is -- on its own -- just as obvious, and the metatext of Kitase and Nojima's statements offer the same kind of clarification.

 

[Wolfmania]

The problem is, as people have said, fake!Cloud and real!Cloud are diametrically different personalities, and you can't apply fake!Cloud's feelings, actions and reactions to how real!Cloud would feel, act or react.

To clarify this, let me exemplify.

Think of a man with multiple personality disorder. Now, let's characterize persona 1 as a tepid, timid, kind and gentle man, who could not hurt a fly. Now, let's characterize persona 2, who is a cruel, sadistic, and hedonistic murderer.

One night, persona 2 takes the car seat for a multitude of reasons. He goes out for a night of hedonistic revelry, and ultimately, kills an innocent for the sheer thrill.

Now, persona 1 has to see, interpret and feel all that persona 2 does. Only while persona 2 feels nothing but joy, persona 1 feels nothing but powerlesness and disgust at those actions.

This is how I imagine the dynamic between fake!Cloud and real!Cloud would work, though obviously real!Cloud wouldn't be repulsed by Aerith, and he formed an everlasting bond with her, it dosen't automatically mean romantic given no evidence for that.

If anything, and this is my interpretation of the unknown, I think her bond is much like his with Zack's. Heck, he probably even felt responsible for her given that after real!Cloud took over, he remembered his promise to Zack, and that Zack told him to protect Aerith. And even that he was sitting powerless as she was killed. That, and the fact she was an all-around lovely person, who brought out the best in people. Those two facts combined are probably what created their bond. And what created Cloud's projection of guilt.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

To clarify this, let me exemplify.

Think of a man with multiple personality disorder. Now, let's characterize persona 1 as a tepid, timid, kind and gentle man, who could not hurt a fly. Now, let's characterize persona 2, who is a cruel, sadistic, and hedonistic murdered.

One night, persona 2 takes the car seat for a multitude of reasons. He goes out for a night of hedonistic revelry, and ultimately, kills an innocent for the sheer thrill.

Now, persona 1 has to see, interpret and feel all that persona 2 does. Only while persona 2 feels nothing but joy, persona 1 feels nothing but powerlesness and disgust at those actions.

This is how I imagine the dynamic between fake!Cloud and real!Cloud would work, though obviously real!Cloud wouldn't be repulsed by Aerith, and he formed an everlasting bond with her, it dosen't automatically mean romantic given no evidence for that.

If anything, and this is my interpretation of the unknown, I think her bond is much like his with Zack's. Heck, he probably even felt responsible for her given that after real!Cloud took over, he remembered his promise to Zack, and that Zack told him to protect Aerith. And even that he was sitting powerless as she was killed. That, and the fact she was an all-around lovely person, who brought out the best in people. Those two facts combined are probably what created their bond. And what created Cloud's projection of guilt.

1. mpd is no longer the accepted term by the psychological community, it's now dissociative identity disorder and even that is questioned by professionals to be actually existant

2. there's not a whole lot of evidence to support this is what was happening with cloud. real!cloud knows what's up and tells the messed up cloud to talk to tifa about shit. he has to have been somewhat there for any sort of lasting bond with aerith to have been formed, even if he isn't at the surface. maybe it was just a poor choice of disorder on your part, but generally with did the personalities are completely separate from one another (tho some argue that some discussion happens between personalities and thats how different ones know the same things but others argue this just proves the whole thing is horseshit)

3. there is essentially no reason for real!cloud to have acted on any romantic inclinations toward aerith by the point he comes around cause need i remind you, she is dead at this point. the most we get is a lot of fond memories and a desire to unfreeze her smile, which could be read as romantic. but as the story progresses, he realizes his feelings for tifa are mutual and goes for her.

 

[penandpaper]

I do hope you'll continue to offer your insight here, PandP (I'm really enjoying this), but, yeah, I think the canon established by the overall text and metatext makes it clear that Cloud felt something for both and yet ended up with Tifa.

The metatext clarifies the text at times, so while it was always obvious that the fade in the High Affection Highwind scene indicated an intimate moment, the metatext in various places spelled it out clearly. In the same way, I think the "But I'm ... We're here for you, right?" thing is -- on its own -- just as obvious, and the metatext of Kitase and Nojima's statements offer the same kind of clarification.

As long as I'm not upsetting anyone, I don't mind. I like a good debate, but I don't want alienate other forum members and this seems to be a touchy subject. Thank you.

I'm not unwilling to accept that he felt attracted to Aerith (I'm not even opposed to accepting that he might love her, but I think that needs more evidence then the quotes that you offered), but I'd think that the next step in proving that Cloud (The real one) loved Aerith is indicating that 1) the feeling was love and not attraction in it's original form 2) it does carry over to Cloud when he pulls himself back together. Composite!Cloud (it's what I tend to call him in this state, but I'll use whatever you prefer) is not Real!Cloud, although he becomes a part of him and certainly Real!Cloud could develop feelings all his own, but there's no indication that those feelings are romantic that I can see. I still think it's unfair to assume that it's a clean transfer when the personalities become one.

Is Aerith important to Cloud? Yes. But the connection still isn't in itself romantic without something else to back it up.

 

[looneymoon]

Cloud is shy.

Often shy people don't seem to be that eager to do things, and can often seem very reluctant to dive into things that catch their interest.