The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Dashell]

So now we go on for 10 pages about how the bow is different, right?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The official description merely says that "a dainty ribbon reminiscent of Aerith tops this dessert," not that it *is* her ribbon.

Am I doing it right, hon?

 

[Carlie]

Although if one thinks about it Sephiroth was the only man who ever put his sword in Aerith.

Zack would like to have a word with you.

 

[Splintered]

The LTD ruins even ice cream.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Its evil is truly without equal.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Jesus Christ I am so sick of Tres, Hito's, etcs translations being bashed/them as translators being bashed. I am also so damn sick of people just being thought of/labelled as their pairings instead of human beings. People not being trusted, bashed or accused of being traps over fictional pairings. It's ridiculous. I am sick of people not thinking of in terms outside TLD, and not accepting a person might have made a genuine mistake about something, instead of accusing them of ulterior motives/all sorts. Apparently fictional pairings are more important to some people than being friends/getting along with other human beings.

It takes a lot to get me mad but seriously.

Also if you don't toe the line and agree 100% with what's being said Sometimes I just can't stand when someone who has their favourite pairing but doesn't always agree 100% with what's being said, when someone else is more aggressive/overtly challenging -w/e in return.

 

[Dashell]

holy hell the LTD really IS solved:

Well I concede

 

[T@ctic]

woot woot i reached pg 100!

Considering they're said to have talked all night, and both the High and Low Affection scenes take place in only minutes and end while it's still night, we can still assume that other conversations took place.

so...here's a little insight of that thing. although it has been proven you have misread the line, this can be backed up by this quote:

........confirm their matching feelings of desire/wanting to one another. This line is said by Tifa at the conversation's end.

if you want a link ill give it to ya (but im sure you wont even know i replied to you).

so...yeap. :T no talking. no words. just.....sum stuff.

and as for the HA and LA versions....maybe this will help (i hope.)

imagine you have just came out of an adventure you signed up for (kinda like the hunger games) and after everything has been done, the judges rack up your points. then they give you the prize, a high action spy movie. you settle down with your popcorn (or nothing, it doesnt matter) and you excitedly watch the movie. but just as the spy (West) yells "I DON'T THINK I'LL MAKE IT!!!" while jumping into a pit of lava, the movie then goes to a strange gray screen, and we see the spy laughing in the distance riding a horse, and the credits roll. you report to the judges that your movie is continued, and you need a full version. while the judges assure you that there is a full version, they refuse to give it to you. you ask why, and they say that, according to your points, this is as much of the movie you get. you can reply the adventure to get higher points, but this is a much as you get now.

but your brother, on the otherhand, has given his points to the judges. his points rank higher, and he gets the full version of the movie. when you ask your brother what happened to West, he tells you that he lived, if it wasnt for his pet monkey saving him in the nick of time.

there are now two versions of the movie. then, two days later, the book overview of the movie is given to your brother as an additional prize, and you flip to page of the scene of West supposedly jumping to his death. but in the corner is says "If the persons who didn't rank up enough points in their adventure, their version of the movie will suddenly be cut short."

so does that mean the scene is optional? does that mean there is not canon outcome? if only makes simple sense to accept to higher ranked completed movie than the lower uncompleted version. both scenes show the movie and you know he got saved, but you version (the lower ranked version) looked extremely lacking. in a way, the lower ranked is "losing" while the opposite is "winning."

cloud and tifa became aware of their feelings in the lifestream and are trying to confirm those feelings. in the LA version...it looks...i dunno...rushed? i cant find the right word, but it looks like something is missed. the scene is more like:

Tifa: Do you like me Cloud?
Cloud:.......uh-yeah-I-do-now-let's-get-some-sleep-for-tommorrow-alright-goodnight!

or something like that. is more of an awkward moment.

the LA looks like they held back at LOT of their feelings. we didnt rank up enough points. we "lost".

while the HA scene, however, shows the conversation being brought out. it jumps off from being alone,to fighting, and the confirmation of the voices cloud and tifa heard in the lifestream. then it goes into "deep mature content" (words from S/E) and cloud tries to explain his feelings for tifa but is ultimately left speechless.

even the scenes when its almost dawn slightly differ.
the HA version shows tifa stuttering and pausing to tell cloud good morning while in the LA she says it right out, and cloud is silent in the LA version but in the HA version he notes it could be their "last time together".

the LA ist as meaningful (let alone making it memorable) as the HA. its just flat out. its the "losing" prize because it just doesnt match with what was realized in clouds subconscious. its opposite makes a tender moment into a passionate one, and even leaves us with an apex. it just makes any sense to anyone this would be much more acceptable as the "winning" version.

moreover, why go through all this trouble juts to have it exed out by the LA version, that doesnt really mean anything. its already been declared as risque, adult etc etc etc. its one of the most impressive scenes and it makes perfect blending of what was realized in the lifestream.

without a doubt, the HA version is canon. i hope my movie example helped.

======================

And once again, I point out that I'm asking for the same standard, not different standards. If Shadow is shown again later after the death scene, then we have good reason to think that he survived. Something happened which validates the outcome.

alright i think i get what you are saying. you will admit the HA is canon as long as it has been referenced to later on, am i right? im not sure how you would think the HA isnt canon and insist the LA is because if neither has been declared canon....that would ex each scene out. the HW scene wouldnt happen at all. but i digress.

i gave this some pondering, and i found the answer (i dont know if this has been noted because im only on page 110).

well first, ill get these out the way (although i know you've seen this).

However, Cloud beside her chose to smile gently. It was a smile that she hadn’t seen before during their journey. Cloud noticed her gaze and asked, “What’s wrong?”

“Cloud, you’re smiling.”

“I am?”

“Yeah.”

“It all starts now. A new…”

Cloud looked for the right words.

“A new life.”

“I’m going to live. I think that’s the only way I can be forgiven. All sorts of things… happened.”

“That’s right…”

“But when I think about how many times I’ve thought about how I was going to start a new life, it’s funny.”

“Why?”

“Because I’ve always failed everything.”

“That’s not funny.”

“After this … I think I’ll be okay.”

Cloud was silent for a long time before he spoke again.

“Because I have you this time.”


“You’ve always had me.”

“What I mean is kind of different,” Cloud answered with another smile.

When Tifa and Cloud were alone, Cloud said, “It’s not like you to be troubled by your thoughts.”

“It’s… Just the way I am.”

“No. You’re much more cheerful and strong. If you’ve forgotten the way you were then, I’ll be there to remind you.”

“You really will?”

“Probably,” Cloud said blushing.

i dont understand why you wouldnt get any hints that this is implicating something happened at the HW (well, romantic anyway), especially when cloud has given tifa his rare smiles twice (wasnt it thrice?) in the story, (and we dont even NEED to get into cloud and his smiles) but you cant bypass this.

http://www.finalfantasykingdom.net/caseofbarret.php

"I left Marlene with Tifa. Since she's taken to her and all."
"Good for you. Whole world's clappin' you on the back. So Cloud's with Tifa?"

lets just stop there. why would cid ask that? when barret didnt even say anything of the kind to make him think this? barret knows of cloud and tifa's relationship, yet cid asked about them, starting a new subject. in fact, is one of the first things on barrett and cid's list of "catching up". the absolute last time he saw them that would logically make him think this? apparently he saw something that the two did (maybe this ) and asked right out did they hook up afterwards. as a matter of fact, his asking was more of a question that expected a positive answer. it wasnt 100% genuinely curious. its like if you asked "So I CAN go to Gerald's house this weekend?"
this question sounds more of awaiting positive confirmation than just a question of completely unknowing. cid has obviously thought of cloud and tifa beforehand, and only confirmed his hunches by asking barrett was he correct. therefore the highwind scene has been referred to, as you have asked, making it canon.

even with the explanation im sure you wouldnt listen even if you were still on here....right?

==============

I definitely don't like Tifa, but I think she's easy to relate to. She's kind of clingy and annoying (in my opinion), but a lot of us chicks are. But in FFVII, she shows that she's too dependent. She cries a lot, she only seems to care about Cloud. I think when a girl is too dependent on a particular dude, she shouldn't be with him. I think there's someone in the Final Fantasy VII world that will make her kind of grow up, be independent. I think she should be with someone like Reno, who has a really strong, in-your-face personality. That'd be great for her. Cloud is maybe a little too sensitive, like her, and doesn't seem to communicate very well with her. Nojima said things "might not work" between him and Tifa, and personally I agree.

ooooh this kinda pissed me off. >.< i couldnt take aerith and my strong disliking of her blinded me to even think cloud thought of her as an annoying little 10yr old. when i first met her i was like "Alright, Cloud'll leave her and get back to his adventures!" but when she asked him for the date (i kinda felt he wouldnt take it), and then she followed him around when he tried to leave her house i was like >.> "oooookaay you're annoying...." and when she jumped up to "save" tifa when cloud shouted for her to go home i was like what the fack is wrong with you woman. i almost (notice i said ALMOST) didnt even care when she died (yea i know kill me later).

im just grateful for CC. i really appreciated and genuinely liked her in there, but even then i was gritting my teeth when she first appeared to zack. shes even a tad bit prettier than tifa i must say. : P

just a little off topic....i wonder if tseng cried when he learned aerith was dead...or at least he was crestfallen....or sad....or....something.

================

Clerith is a sweet fanon pairing, and I am happy for you if you enjoy it. But as far as the canonicity of one relationship or the other, Clerith just isn't in Clot's weight class.

.........:/

imma be straight up, no offense to the shippers.

clerith is just.....a really bad couple. cloud is emotionally weak (we all know this) and aerith is fragile. putting them in a relationship together wouldnt be a good one. sure, they'd be all romantic-y but what if trying times come? i know aerith would do her absolute best, but something tells me that she wouldnt be as good as tifa did (does).

imagine cloud leaving the family....aerith already tried (unsuccessfully) to get over zack!

i just find it a bit gross. nooooooo not in the way you think, but clerith is just another example of why i hated couples as much as satan hates humans in the first place. gooey, cheesy, obvious, and unrealistic. like a two week newlywed love frozen forever. just...*puts tongue in mouth*

i would also argue this:

While it can certainly be argued that Nojima&#8217;s comments don&#8217;t offer a promise that Cloud and Tifa will stay together, that&#8217;s really not important. The Love Triangle Debate was never about who would Cloud be more likely to have a fairy tale romance with. It was about establishing who Cloud had an interest in being in a romance with.

For that matter, such relationships go through stages anyway. After two years, Tifa and Cloud can&#8217;t really be expected to still be in a phase where their hearts go pitter-patter.

All couples have problems. Even the ones that couldn&#8217;t imagine life without one another. That&#8217;s the unavoidable reality of sharing your life with another
person who has their own feelings, thoughts and history that influence their feelings and thoughts.

while i certainly agree cloud and tifa wont have a disney future, we know that they will end up together for the rest of their lives - although that sounds insanely cheesy - thanks to FTOIL (i like saying eff-toyal outloud).

Through the long journeys, the love of the protagonists develop. Occasionally they become separated, but the two&#8217;s value to one another gives them the great strength to overcome whatever crisis may come.

so even if cloud happens to find that tifa is cheating on him for a decade, they'll get through it (although id love to see how).

but yes, they'll go through problems, most certainly. they are the first couple i have ever supported because of that. because cloud and tifa's relationship is wrecked up makes it real. because cloud messed up the relationship by deserting the family means he isnt perfect, and won be, just as much as tifa. because the children need to help them out, because their relationship isnt seen as "ZOMG WE'RE GONNA MAKE LOVE EVERY SECOND EVERY MINUTE EVERY HOUR UNTIL OUT EYES POP OUT!!!!" etc etc
E.
T.
C!

it has such realism my BROTHER joined to support the couple, and he had more hatred of couples than i do (if not equal). cleriths, if looking for a canon couple like it, need to look at X. tidus and yuna make me wince at how obvious and superficial their love is;it's so dragged out it looks plain ridiculous (to me).

anyway im done with this subject, because i could go on and on about it. the only halfway cheesy couple i like is zerith, and thats because it's a good contrast to zacks' i'm epic-kick butt -i-pick-'em-and-ditch-'em attitude.

besides, cloti is awesome because cloud privately worships tifa when she sleeps (hey, who says his creepiness went away?). because he'd be staggering around like a crazed drunk, babbling things with his wrecked up mind if she didnt step in.

====================

The dictionaries I became familiar with the word through used "to be seen faintly/dimly," so it would seem we're not able to agree on that word. I still insist it refers to perception, particularly in the CC Ultimania quote.

It also just flatly doesn't make sense to call Cloud's crush on Tifa from his younger days faint given that he joined SOLDIER to impress her and that the promise he made to her was his guiding light. It's even the last thing he speaks of if he fails during the mission with him in BC.

i ABSOLUTELY AGREE.

And we're back to Cloud and Tifa having sex on pointy rocks, are we? Nevermind that screenshot from just a few posts ago that shows them surrounded by fucking grass.

my reaction to this post:

(2:55 - 3:12)

(i would absolutely LOVE it if someone put it in GIF form for me if they have photoshop but...who's gonna do all that work just for one person?)

and im not sure if this has been noted before, but this quote explains what i have been debating these past months.

"Before the final battle......
Variations determined by Tifa's affection rating apply from the beginning of the evening with Cloud and Tifa on the grassland until the conversation where they reunite with their companions on the airship. If the affection rating is high, Cloud and Tifa convey their feelings in powerful lines.
(U20 Scenario, margin of pg. 232)

sooo...yea. :T no rocks. cloud and tifa arent morons you know....

hmmmm...what else do i want to note before i dive in?

oh yeah!

The point is also that "mutual feelings" doesn't always have to mean "mutual love". If Cloud and Tifa both have issues with each other, then they can have "mutual issues" with each other during FFVII as well as after FFVII.

i was going to face palm....but then i realized i would give myself a coma from the force.

 

[Strangelove]

Jesus Christ I am so sick of Tres, Hito's, etcs translations being bashed/them as translators being bashed. I am also so damn sick of people just being thought of/labelled as their pairings instead of human beings. People not being trusted, bashed or accused of being traps over fictional pairings. It's ridiculous. I am sick of people not thinking of in terms outside TLD, and not accepting a person might have made a genuine mistake about something, instead of accusing them of ulterior motives/all sorts. Apparently fictional pairings are more important to some people than being friends/getting along with other human beings.

idk if something is going on right now in fandom but have a kitty

 

[Dashell]

I just realized something... Denzel isn't part of the family

He never got the invite from Marlene... isn't that sad?

 

[T@ctic]

Cluffie is the true canon. Cloud and Yuffie both have airsickness and therefore need to be together. FOREVER.

(Info taken from CluffieRunDisTrip.com)

Although Yuffie is 15 and Cloud is 21, it is obvious that his feelings for her are much more freely given than his feelings for Tifa and Aerith combined.

-The true FFVII overview

Yuffie is taken by a flash of jealousy when she learns of Cloud and Tifa's night under the Highind, but he quietly assures her that nothing happened and he rejected her (which is why he is so happy the next day). When Yuffie refuses to believe this, Cloud silences her by the biggest kiss in FF history.

-The true couple booklet of FFVII

And lastly, S/E blatantly tells us so.

Cloud loves Yuffie.

-Unknown document

So...stop arguing about dumb ol' Tifa and REALLY forget about Aerith. COME TO CLUFFIE!



arrrrrrgh! >.< These pages are so hard to fully read through I think I'm going crazy.....

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Thank you Hito

Spoiler

Well I wasn't involved personally but basically it was something about Cloud and Tifa not even being friends now (or well not -good-friends) because of something Marlene said on the phone (and there was some drama on tumblr linked to, which was what upset me) No points for originality in the Cloud/Tifa not even being friends thing but this time it was because of something Marlene said that "the lifestream" apparently didn't translate right or something. Even though the original translation for Case of Tifa didn't come directly from here/Tres/Hito but from XComp or something iirc No, wait it was a word you didn't translate at all or left out altogether or something

@ Ryu Hai there yourself

Spoiler

Not much been happenings, just been hanging around Lightning Returns stuff and Tales of Xillias mostly. Imported Xillia 2 the other week so just fiending on that. I want to import Lightning Returns and get the Aerith outfit as well (once people figure out how to do that)

 

[jazzflower92]

It lives again.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Well how can you kill what is, in reality, already dead? DUN DUN DUN!

 

[Obsidian Fire]

So... the LTD has been un-dead this entire time?

That makes way, way to much sense.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Quick, somebody use an X-Potion on it!

 

[Obsidian Fire]

^^I loved that tactic...

 

[Dashell]

Cloud is the biggest fucking pussy in the compilation if he and Tifa aren't friends. What, exactly, is stopping him from you know... MOVING OUT?!... and staying out? If he really doesn't consider her even a friend, you'd think he would have like... gotten his own place or something. Is he that much of a pussy that he can't tell someone who apparently isn't his friend that he doesn't want to live with them anymore?

who would even WANT that guy?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Some other bitch who just wants to see how much she can get him to do for her.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

You'd be surprised what people do for free food and booze. They even put up with beautiful women with large breasts.

Meanwhile, Clephiroth:
"It doesn't matter even if anything's missing. Cloud will make me complete"

Haters to da left.

 

[T@ctic]

just popping in to say....just how LONG have you guys been ARGUING about this?!

ive seen around here that this goes back to 08 and even before AC! why havent you guys went insane?

EDIT (because i was too lazy for put in another new post):

summary of pgs 100-150

Spoiler

pg 121

First, the scene fades to a black out just like the HW scene does. SE says that Cloud and Tifa confirm their feelings for one another without words in the HA HW scene version after the scene blacks out. Why can't Cloud and Aerith confirm anything during the black out if Cloud and Tifa can?

BULL. SHIZ. ok i called that out. that logic - and i use the term very loosly, but its the only word i can use - is as solid as boiled cabbage juice.

ohhhh...so THATS what you meant by fireworks= kissing.

1. you have flatout said that your clerith essay was really old and you didnt apply your views from it anymore. then you turn around and use something from a source you claim isnt reliable. so why should we? so dont be in a pissy if you get mad. or maybe you still support this claim even today.....?

2. because cloud doesnt spend under the highwind with any other person than tifa. no matter HOW optional it is, barret, cid, nanaki, cait sith, and vincent will never stay behind no matter how much they desire to be by his side.

3. you just claimed that every single proof given of the HW scene nothing romantic happened. then you turn around and say it is so you can support you claim of the gondola date?????
the gondola date???? really now????
because of a fade to black? since when has anyone claimed fades to black means romantic-ness? they've said that due to the surroundings or the scene PLUS the fade to black is seen as romantic to anyone sane.

its like if someone said out of nowhere "I don't think you're a witch." would that seem romantic?
but when squall said it to rinoa and due the predicament it is seen as such.
i take what ryu means is that tifa's line isnt risque by itself. at its basis, its just what she says: there are other ways to express whats on your mind than just words. this isnt romantic and really, what the heck is she talking about?
but placed in the predicament of the scene its instantly seen as risque, and then the scene leads to black. on the gondola after a "I'm searching.....for you" we dont see anything else.

rinoa is relived. cloud and tifa are obviously chippier than usual and they get teased. after the so called kiss of cloud and aerith we dont get any hints that they did anything romantic.

seriously you need a lesson on whats romantic or not?

holy cow i was listening to this song as i was typing this (epicly remixed by Seven Lions)

Spoiler

Walls around your heart
I wanna get in
I wanna know you
You're scared to lose it all
I know who you've been
But I'll take a chance on you


Pull me in tonight and stay forever
I wanna know the secrets of your heart
Let's begin tonight
It's now or never
Love won't happen til you try to cross the Great Divide

mysteriously fitting the scene.......except i dont know what the "Great Divide" business >.>

pg 129

I still don't see how Cloud not having good communication skills in AC/C and CoT does not fit with the HA Highwind scene, if anything the HA version makes more logical sense because it shows explicitly that Cloud has trouble expressing his emotions. Also don't forget the mindset that Cloud and Tifa are in during the Highwind scene is very different compared to AC/C, because for them it is their potentially last night alive.
Also don't forget that Cloud's guilt did not stem from him not having a relationship, rather as his character profile states, the happier he became with his family the more guilty he felt.

yes, i agree. although cloud isnt my fave charcater i am him 100% emotionally. for some strange reason, i've been accursed with the ability to struggle with expressing feelings. i find it very hard to say "i love you" to a person who says it back, let alone just by myself. i just...freeze. i dont know why. then they just look at me weird and all i can reply is "I care a lot about you too" but i just cant say it! its embarrassing and somewhat vulnerable (ok a LOT) to me. i cant help it if i suck like that

its also 100% cloud's moving from his family is a STUPID move, but i, too would do the same dumb move. heck, i was just as oblivious as cloud was on the whole love thing. i mean i had no idea. i thought when tifa said "I guess ... that only works for real families." i thought she wanted to be cloud's sister LOL

so yea if i was in the predicament of the HW i would readily express without words.

pg 134

I was talking here about the LA version. You wanted to know how Cloud and Tifa could confirm that they are mutually disinterested in a relationship if SE says that Tifa loves Cloud. I replied that it's possible for someone to realize that it would be a mistake to start a relationship with someone even though you're attracted to that person. That would qualify as Tifa being disinterested in a relationship.

i find this funny. ok i dont. firstly you insist like ANYTHING that the LA and HA are optional and therefore arent canon, but you sure are riding the balls of the LA a bit too well and you lean tremendously on that.
in addition, why the heck do you say neither is canon but wont just admit the HA version? ok, so neither is canon. but...why insist on the LA? it wouldnt harm you to admit the HA since its not canon, in your words in your book so many times. so it would do us a sake of good just to just admit - for the sake of optional-ness - that the HA OPTIONAL scene is ok and we can roll the hades on.

i find it very funny (not) that clerith's avoid the HW in general, but hastily talk about the LA scene. i mean, does it even make sense to take a LOWER RATED SCENE more than a HIGHER one? arent high points what people want? the very fact of their denying something happened means BY DEFAULT that they know what happened. or else what would there be to deny? if cleriths deny what happened they admit it by default because they know. just by their utterance of "no" in the sentence "no they didnt."

pg 134

Plus, Cloud says this in Case of Tifa (Revised):

“No. You’re much more cheerful and strong. If you’ve forgotten the way you were then, I’ll be there to remind you.”

“You really will?”

“Probably,” Cloud said blushing.

Probably? Why is Cloud saying "probably" if his only plan is to live with Tifa?

you didnt need to to add "revised". its in both versions. :/

and there are two things you must admit about this.

1. you dont know cloud's personality/problem of expressing his feelings
2. you are taking his shy word for granite and are looking at the concreteness of it all.

you sure can become blind when you wanna, can't you? looks like you missed cloud went red as he was saying those words. he means "probably" as in "i guess so" or "........uh huh" oh wtfreeze am i saying this for? you know.

BUT. ok. ill give you this. fine. "probably" isnt "yessire ma'am i sure will." so that means it clerith? what? but fine. FINE. ill give you this shizzy argument.

it still doesnt change the HW.
it still doesnt change cloud and tifa living together as a DIRECT RESULT of their found romantic feelings.
it doesnt change the fact of cloud feels so compelled for the promise that he feels not more on the wanting side, but he must keep the promise - the words of S/E themselves.
it doesnt change the fact that cloud is especially sorry only to tifa and he hopes she gets to meet him, unlike aerith, who begged to see him in the date.

because cloud is wrapped around tifa's finger. he would drink a gallon or her bathwater and drink 10 more. he went through 2 years of pure torture when he just could have said "F*ck it" and left, but was willing to spend more without even thinking "Is this girl really worth it?" he nearly dies for her. twice. in the same week. without hesitations. he killed not only a person that was just stronger than him, but a 1ST CLASS SOLDIER, and this SOLDIER is MOUNTAINS STRONGER than a 1st class, because she was dead. and even then he was still going to keep the promise. its tifa who snaps him to reality when they meet 5 (in some cases, 7)yrs later.
cloud worships this girl.
and she doesnt even know it.

so go ahead. keep that "probably" argument. we still have more and its ok to lose sometimes. theres just too much proof on our shoulders, so it'll be good to get a bit off. im not arguing everything cloti. i will even agree to your points. but that wont change cloti.
pg 133

Cloud thinking of Aerith first when Sephy asks him in AC/ACC what he cherishes most... and more.

buncha BS. im not even going to use the marlene/denzel argument. did you say that the LTD goes on because of the "evenness" of proof for clerith and cloti? and you are absolutely sure that S/E made it that way? then why after aerith is shown, tifa isnt shown right after her to support the LTD evenness? you can stretch out this "probably" SHIZ, AND you can stretch out this "best to last" crap that S/E didnt utter a single breath about? like i said, to the evenness of the LTD tifa isnt shown right after aerith. so your blunk juice is throw out the window. his family was shown last. which means, following that PURE OPINION, that cloud thinks of his family as last to important. and then silly old S/E turns around and lies to us by saying he is happiest with his family. they are such trolls, right?

seems like you have it mixed up. its best for last.
i swear they should make a saying out of that.....

but again, take this shizzy proof. i give it to you. there's still tons more left.

Okay, what feelings are being discussed here?
1) Young Cloud has revealed that he had a crush on Tifa when he invited her out to the well.


So what did Cloud reveal to Tifa? He revealed that he had a crush on her when he was a kid. That paragraph is talking about Cloud's feelings for Tifa as a kid.

why would this even be important at all if cloud didnt love her anymore? he has the memories of the crush, but what would be the use of his feelings for her? he doesnt feel the same.

Now, Lifestream Cloud says that Current Cloud will PROBABLY be happy to know the Tifa looked for pictures of him in the newspapers. If this statement is supposed to mean that current Cloud is in love with Tifa, then why does it say probably? It's much more likely that he'll probably be happy to find out that his strategy worked - Young Cloud got Young Tifa to notice him by leaving to join SOLDIER.

why would he be happy at all? if you found out some boy from your 3rd grade had a crush on you and you dont even feel anything for him anymore why would you feel 1% happy? the line was said with such positiveness it was sure to delight cloud.

Also, the Lifestream event did NOT reveal that Cloud had romantic feelings for Tifa as a kid. It only revealed that Cloud was a kid with a crush on Tifa,

so crushes are platonic now?

and cloud yelling his heart out for tifa (aerith wasnt spoken of the entire scene) instinctively isnt romantic or at least very intimate and caring?

same as other boys in town.

wow. i thought tifa was so ugly only cloud liked her.

and "same" is really a hard word to talk about. unless the other boys were stalking her and listening to her play the piano and running around wherever she went and disobeying direct orders from higher ranks i think it wasnt the "sameness".

Childhood crushes are not love.

thanks auntie 'tara. thats a freakin relief. because a boy that lives across me told me he liked me a lot and im around 5yrs older than him. so its good i wont have to let him down easy.

and you forgot to add that cloud still places blame on himself about tifa even as an adult in the LS. the promise didnt seem as a type of forgiveness to him. he said he still felt guilt over it ever since he was 8yrs old. that makes.......13 whole years of self-blame. so cloud isnt a child anymore, but....yet his feelings for her hasnt changed. oh wait...hasnt he TOLD her this RIGHT OUT?

Because Cloud getting his memory back hinged on Cloud believing that he really grew up in Nibelheim. Cloud believing that he really grew up in Nibelheim was proven to Cloud by both he and Tifa remembering things from their childhood - such as his crush on her, such as Cloud wanting to be part of her group of friends, and such as Cloud getting blamed for letting Tifa fall from the bridge. Remembering all that helped Cloud remember what really happened during the Nibelheim event.

Spoiler

*Cloud and Tifa are trotting around in his memories/soul/spirit*
*Cloud stops suddenly*
Cloud: Hey Tifa....
Tifa: Yeah?
*Cloud laughs out of nowhere and scratches behind his head*
Cloud: I used to have a crush on you when we were kids.
Tifa: .....What?!
Cloud: Yeah. It was huge.
Tifa: ......
Cloud: I even went to Shin-ra for you ya know? And I killed Sephy for you.
Tifa: ...I don't remember you there when I was hurt.
Cloud: Oh, that's because I hid myself from you because I didn't become SOLDIER at all.
Tifa: Really? Where were you?
*Cloud shrugs*
Cloud: I was the bodyguard, holding you back to go in the reactor. You know, the one you wanted to follow Zack and Sephy in?
Tifa: Oh WOW! You killed Sephy just for me!
*Cloud gets testy and roughly pokes his finger into her chest*
Cloud: Now don't you get thinking anything. That was in the PAST. I don't feel anything about you NOW.
Tifa: Even though you stayed with me because of the promise?
*Cloud nods*
Tifa: Even though you said it's my attitude that counts out of everyone's? Even Aerith's?
*Cloud nods*
*Tifa shrugs and walks on*
Tifa: Seem legit.

thats all i have to say on that.

I can basically say the same thing to you. IF Cloud and Tifa truly love one another non-optionally, then why haven't we heard them express it to one another? Why haven't we seen a kiss between them? Why is the HA HW scene only provided on an optional basis?

IF SE wanted to make Cloti the canon couple of the game, then all they had to do was make the HA HW scene non-optional, and actually show a kiss or an "I love you" between Cloud and Tifa sometime during the scene or afterwards. (Of course, the same applies to Cloud and Aerith - that's why I don't think either couple is canon.

there you go with that clerith crap again. clerith would do something like that, not cloti. they never will i hope. thats not according to their relationship. and i dont see any cleriths complain about cid and shera non romance scenes. the cloti romantic side is so privately done that even the GAME CAMERA cant get in on what they are doing. but they still do whatever they want on THEIR OWN TIME. not according to the likes of you or other clotis. and it was enough to see tifa's look at the end of the movie that she was thinking of a few things they could do when the whole day blew over.

pg 132

Cloud's emotions are not the distinction between the two scenes. The major deviation starts with how certain Cloud was that Tifa was calling him back AS HIS HEART CALLED OUT TO HERS.
Regardless of high or low version, Cloud's heart called out to Tifa in the Lifestream, Tifa, the only person he opened his heart to.
Tifa's AV controls the scene. The major change is Cloud's certainty she called him back. Not that his heart called to hers.
Cloud's heart calls to Tifa. Not optional.

and i must say, its the most confirming part of cloti for me. to me, its just what nails it. at the end of it all, in fear and darkness, cloud and tifa call and will call for each other. at the same time. THAT is what truly gets me. i dont need the boinky doink scene for my confirmation. their feeling for each other matched back to them. it's invoulentary, instinctive, and rawness that just does it for me. whether they were denying or hiding their feelings it wasnt secret or fake. and they didnt even know they called.
THAT is what defines "soul mate" for me. at his deepest roots, tifa is right in his heart. the ONLY one in his heart.

Okay, it's possible that he's just bashful, but that's also your interpretation. Yes, he had told her that his plan was to have her with him from that day forward, but how do you know he hasn't changed his mind since then? It's only your interpretation that Cloud meant it romantically when he said he was to have Tifa with him from that day forward.

yea and by my saying cloud has blond hair and blue eyes and his being 5'7 and Barret naming him spikey and him being the main character of VII is all my interpretation. but if you said all these things it would be true. just like *snap* that. because guys that arent bashful blush. aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaall the time.

Easy.

Talk to Jessie twice on the train home from the first mission:

"Thanks anyway" --
"Looking forward to it" (-3 Tifa)

If Cloud talks twice to Jessie, then he's starting to get interested in a relationship with Jessie, so it's -3 Tifa. That's a very good example of how Cloud's actions suggest how he feels toward Tifa. If he's getting interested in a relationship with Jessie, then he's less likely to be interested in a relationship with Tifa. So, Tifa gets -3 points to her affection level.

didnt you just say not even 2 paragraphs ago

And that could be interpreted to mean that Cloud loves both Aerith and Tifa.

and then you turn around and contradict CLERITH by making cloud interesting into someone as meaningless as jessie? so cloud is in love with how many women now? three? making it a love SQUARE enix?

Easy. They both respect Cloud's abilities more, since he's able to get out of trouble as easily as they are - they didn't have to help him out. So both of them like him more.

ok, i know this is the tu quoque and all, but why the heck do YOU get to make up pure shiz crap and we cant? yeah i sure as balls IS easy to make up your own shiz. anyone can do that. no surprise that its "easy".

no, i dont think you're bipolar.
i dont think you're a liar.
nor do i think you are drunk, off your rocker, or higher than lil wayne.

obvious troll is obvious.

Most likely because the other girl is dead. Cloud and Tifa have a strong friendship, so she'd have reason to hope it would grow into something more.

ok. lets go with that shiz. hes still a better friend than with aerith. yourself said that cloud is so close to tifa as a friend that it's nearly pushing romance. i mean he IS raising kids with her, living with her, wanting her in a different way than before for the rest of his freakin life, and even claims her as part of his family. i've never seen that kind of friendship with aerith. so, even in FRIENDSHIP proof, tifa still wins. you just made this crap up by yourself. yes, indeed, this is easy.

For example, the scene where Tifa finds the delivery order from Elmyra to take flowers to Aerith's grave and offers to talk with Cloud about it. He shuns her and says he wants to drink alone. Tifa snaps and says to go drink in his room.

isnt it strange for cloud to be pee-and-shiz-in-your-pants drunk using TIFA'S wine, in HER bar, sitting HIS behind on HER chair? and then he has the nerve to be arguing at HER under HER house? you must have some standards for friends if you dont kick him the fack out.

And we know Harry/Ginny is canon because they married. Not sure if they told each other they loved each other but probably they did that too.

i dont even need to look at all the FF games to know 9/10 times, the couples arent married.

The "koibito" quote in the Reunion Files only says that Tifa is LIKE a mother and LIKE a koibito. She's not really a mother, is she? She's just LIKE one. So, she's not really a sweetheart, either.

Furthermore, there's nothing even hinting that it has anything to do with Cloud. Cloud's name isn't used in the sentence. You're just assuming it's in reference to Cloud.

FPS i hate that koibito crap.

Cloud
.........Lifestream?
He holds out his hand, thinking he sees Aeris reaching down for him, but he soon comes back to reality to realize that it's Tifa's hand, and the ground is crumbling beneath his feet. The rock gives way beneath Tifa, but Cloud catches her and manages to grab hold of the ledge.
Cloud
......I think I'm beginning to understand.
Tifa
What?
Cloud
An answer from the Planet...
the Promised Land...
I think I can meet her...there.
Tifa hesitates, her expression wistful, and then she closes her eyes and leans her head against Cloud.
Tifa
Yeah, let's go meet her.

where do they utter "aerith"? yet im sure you (as well as all people) know its about aerith. you've caught yourself at your own interpretation! because S/E didnt say a name, so there for you INTERPRET that they meant aerith. cloud could have meant jessie. after all you added that crapola of shiznit that he was interested in her. maybe he was talking about his mom. maybe he was talking about JENOVA. maybe he was talking about elena. or her sister. or scarlet. so just cant say aerith. funny how you can poke out THEIR interpretation from miles around the world but you cant see your own in front of that clerithed up eyes of yours.

cloud and tifa didnt speak aerith. so therefore we have no idea WHO they are taking about so shut up assuming its her. unless you admit it's your view of things.

and just to troll around like 'tara is (because its absurd of her logic levels to admit she is sane) there is the question of clotis that beg the question of "How can Cloud love Aerith in a short time?"

well, like this bro said, and i agree:

.......There is no element of time when love is concerned. Love can be strong withing two or three days. Or love can die years later. Love is love. Once you define what it is, it's no longer love......It's possible to experience passionate love within 3 seconds.

-Zang Yimou on H.O.F.D movie

love can take time or not at all. but for clerith there was no time for it to develop (if feelings were there at all). clerith is the couple THAT needs time BECAUSE there wasnt enough.

Not true, play Crisis Core. Even Zack can tell there is something between Cloud and Tifa. Also Tifa is referenced in Cloud's DMW sequences. There's one of Cloud staring at the water tower.
Cloud: Just thinking about the past.
Zack: The past... You want to talk about it?

Obviously Cloud still has Tifa on his mind.
Also during the reactor scene we see Cloud holding Tifa and then he strokes her cheek. Why would he do that? He was embarrassed to be seen by Tifa, Zack points that out later too.

where was the scene with him looking at the water tower? and i know zack "senses issues" of them talking but where does it say he knows cloud is embarrassed? about what anyway? D: ive also seen somewhere that cloud and tifa talk to each other but i havent seen a clue of this. can someone post up the script or something? a video would be niiiiiiice. ive only seen zerith in the game so i dont see why people is like OMG CLOTI ISZ THERRRR 2!" i guess im missing a ton of scenes of them

Going back to an issue that was brought up about a page or so ago.
I don't see the 'not enough time' point as a good one to make against clerith. :T

i think why people say clerith needs more time is because it just didnt. aerith was beating cloud's head with a wet stick and pummeling him with a sledgehammer of her feelings and yet cloud kept responding with a "........" (thats a funny face btw) and so, for CLERITH (NOT other couples) to be possible it needs time. but i dont know....we only know how zloud reacts to aerith...we have no idea of how regular cloud and aerith would get along. we only see the real cloud and aerith as friends.

yes its cloti and it could be clerith, but isnt that what (99%) shipping is for? possibility? i cant stand HarryGinny and dont exactly adore HarryHermione but i would have liked it to turn out in some way. now im not reading the fanfictions im a liar but i would have liked to see what it would be.

although i cant see it 1%, yes, there is a possibility for clerith. as much as zifa (ummmmm.....) and even scarletxreno (i dont know if that is even a couple in the shipping world but whatever). i just....dont know how it would turn out.

the most i can imagine the hardest is cloud saving aerith all the time because she gets herself in trouble all the time and then they break up after cloud finds shes pregnant i dunno :/

She sees him when he's sleeping, she knows when he's awake

in which she watches him do so (girl needs help for goodness sakes!)

(speaking to Maidenofwar on my re-reply)

Spoiler

You didn't need to have a go at my age or mentality and/or make up stuff about my mind or age. I wasn't ten and there was no need to have a go about being underdeveloped or w/e. There was no call for it, I never said anything anti Cloti or bashed Cloud/Tifa.

and for THAT i am sorry.
firstly i - for the life of me - cant understand how stupid i acted, its almost unbelievable. you know dat awkward 'net moment when you look at the past and the most you can do is sigh and facepalm and say "How the ___ could I have done something like that?" well maybe you havent but im sorry. very sorry. what i think i did was not direct it towards you, but rather, indirectly. i think i was trying to get a clerith on here but since everyone on here is sane on the canon part i failed. like a lot. and due to the fact that i was (and still am) a noob on here and dont know how things work on here AND im new to forums in general because ive been sitting in the YT pool for 3yrs...ugh. disgusting. once again i apologize.i mean REALLY. it almost looks trollish. pleaseforgivemepleaseforgivemepleaseforgiveme-


secondly, since i acted so stupid, im going to reply to you like a NORMAL person.

For me at least I thought the likes of the Lifestream and the Highwind scene were kind of subtle and I didn't get the undertones at first, I really thought it was all about Cloud's identity and putting the Cloud all back together again

well......this i can understand, because when i saw VII for the first time back in maybe...march...(mid april?) i was just amazed of how awesome it was and was COMPLETELY OBLIVOUS of any love. i understand how some people come away with no cloti or clerith when looking at AC/CC because i STILL didnt see a thing. i had no idea cloud even liked a person outside of friendship.

(also being younger didn't fully grasp the concept/context of a words aren't the only thing)

ahha you need not worry. i was 15yrs old and around a few days after i finished the game i was cruising around tifa's profile on the FFwikia and saw her famous quote. it confused me a lot because this was the first time i had seen it. i thought hard on all the game i saw a few days back and it didnt ring anything with me. i was riddled with confusion and searched up more on it. then i was like "WTFreeze is this hullabuloo on this HW scene?" then i was like "Ohhhhh :/"

i think how i missed it was my looking at the walkthrough on YT. i chose GoingCrazy201, and now that i think of it yeah i did get the LA scene.

10:50ish

so i thought they were just friends, thats it. (i also thought when tifa asked cloud for more time alone he wanted to get on with the battle, but was annoyed with tifa thus ".........")

but anyway yeah i can understand - IF YOU DON'T LOOK AT IT LOVE WISE - the entire compilation of VII wont seem lovey much. i mean its not mainly about that in the first place. so yea, in clouds subconscious i thought she was just helping him out, and thanks to the LA scene i thought nothing was between them. even in CC i didnt see cloti (and i still cant tho) but was buttered over with zerith. but love wise, yeah, you cant ignore it. not love wise, you're just like j-zloud: "............"

I thought the Clerith, the Clerith date, etc were more "obvious" (not sure if that's the right word)

clearer? is that the word you were looking for? :?

but even then yeah i still saw no clerith. on aerith annoying the crap about of me with her (IMO) clingyness of cloud. i also think since tifa wasnt all gooey on cloud and shizz i thought she wasnt interested in him. i saw her friendship with aerith tho.

Then for a while I thought as a stand alone things were left ambigious with the original game as a stand alone.

ambiguous? well i dunno if thats the right word....but then again i saw zilcho proclaiming love in the entire game. would "fuzzy" be more of a word to use?

and about cloud and aerith having a good time....its not like they CAN'T. its just that they just didnt at that time. it was more of a one sided good time :/ i would go with the conversation around pg 60. i think cloud's laugh was more at her than with her; after all he was trying to leave her afterwards. i dunno its pure opinion. cloud and aerith (obviously) had lots of good times but i dont think their good times began there yet. there was also a suggestion that maybe cloud loved (not fell IN love with) aerith as his normal self was because she reminded him of zack....not sure if this can even be used more than a limp opinion.

so how was my reply? i didnt act stupid again did i? O:

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

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