The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Master Bates]

Or you know, to be fucking honest, I don't think Cloud was seriously trying to romantically pursue anyone on the first disc, regardless of budding feelings. perhaps Sephiroth is an exception

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'm sorry, but I'm calling bullshit on this entire post.

First you elevate the "date as payment" to something necessary for Cloud to help Aerith. When he never once takes the fucking offer seriously.

"Help me."

"What's in it for me?"

"I'll go out with you."

"Alright then."

Paraphrased, of course.

But, seriously, that's exactly what happens. Where did you see evidence that he didn't really want payment -- even though he told her his help would require payment while she's asking for it?

One can try to finagle around this all they want, but the most straightforward reading of this is that he's accepting her offer. Otherwise, what the hell happened right there?

I don't know what you call that hand waggle when it comes up. But I don't see that as "thus our agreement is made".

Looks like one of those mischievous/cocky nose rubs you see in anime to me. Given the obvious anime influences on the game and the use of other anime mannerisms (e.g. head scratches), it seems the obvious answer.

And secondly you act as if Cloud was somehow thrilled to go home with Aerith and only her mother made him take off.

He wasn't not thrilled to take her home. That was the service he agreed to provide.

And that he might have even gone back at a later time to extract that payment?

I didn't say it was definite. I said maybe he would have, maybe he wouldn't. It isn't like he couldn't have.

And as I am typing this I decided to watch that scene again. The first thing Cloud does is bring up Tifa.

Her bar, actually. The headquarters of the terrorist group he'd been doing a job for before he got sidetracked with Aerith.

Hey..... Cloud and Aerith are made for each other.

Yeah, not what I'm saying. At all.

First, I'm not disputing they were friends by actual date-time. I don't believe I ever said otherwise.

You haven't. I wasn't saying you did.

Second, NO FUCK NO! So, according to you, Cloud (if not for the date payment) what, would have left Aeris at the mercy of the Turks, guys he calls murderers and assassins? Really?

Well, yeah. At the beginning of the game, he's a completely self-serving asshole. You're giving him way too much credit if you thought "But it'll cost you" was a coy game.

Aeris: "So, what are you going to do now?"
Cloud: "...Is Sector 7 far from here? I want to go to Tifa's bar."
--
Aeris: " I'll show youthe way"
Cloud : "You gotta be kidding. Why do you want to put yourself in danger
again?"

He says he's off to Tifa's, having completed what she asked him: to bring her home. He doesn't expect to see her again after this. He clearly intends to drop her off and go on alone. He doesn't take the date seriously.

The entrance to Sector 5 wasn't going to close behind him forever just because he was going to go see to the more immediate need of checking in with AVALANCHE. There's no reason not to assume he planned to collect on his payment at this particular point. No drama with Aerith's mom yet, no brother-in-arms association with Aerith herself yet.

And even after she shows him the way, he is all like "well, Aeris, thanks and all but I guess this is goodbye". And then he tells her to go home again (what? sans bodyguard?) after he sees Tifa, insisting to go on alone.

Right. I pointed that out myself when I said maybe he would have still gone back later or maybe he decided by then that she was more trouble than she was worth.

In any case, you're overlooking that Aerith herself planned to go home at that point even while you're arguing that only she had been serious about the date. Does her willingness to go home here mean she wasn't serious about it?

Again, it's not like they could have never seen each other again, ever.

Anyway, I'm not disputing Aeris being an attractive female or Cloud recognizing that, I'm just not buying that he actively wanted to pursue her & that the date payment is an indication of that.

No one's saying it's an indication of anything more than actively wanting to bone her. Hot chick from the slums offers a "date" in exchange for a pretty serious request. Like I said before, I doubt he's imagining a romantic stroll while they nip at snow cones.

Maybe that makes me an asshole or says more about my background than I realize, but I've known women in tough spots to offer special favors for far less than fighting off men armed with machine guns.

 

[Vendel]

"Help me."

"What's in it for me?"

"I'll go out with you."

"Alright then."

Paraphrased, of course.

But, seriously, that's exactly what happens. Where did you see evidence that he didn't really want payment -- even though he told her his help would require payment while she's asking for it?

One can try to finagle around this all they want, but the most straightforward reading of this is that he's accepting her offer. Otherwise, what the hell happened right there?

Again please show me where someone takes an offer of a date seriously when he makes zero effort to get said date and never brings it up again.

I would love for you to actually explain that.

He wasn't not thrilled to take her home. That was the service he agreed to provide.

Really?

I didn't say it was definite. I said maybe he would have, maybe he wouldn't. It isn't like he couldn't have.

Really?

Her bar, actually. The headquarters of the terrorist group he'd been doing a job for before he got sidetracked with Aerith.

He could have easily said 7th heaven or anything other than "Tifa's Bar". Which prompts Aerith to wonder if Tifa is his girlfriend.

It seems Aerith understands the implication of the statement. Why don't you?

Well, yeah. At the beginning of the game, he's a completely self-serving asshole. You're giving him way too much credit if you thought "But it'll cost you" was a coy game.

"Looks like one of those mischievous/cocky nose rubs you see in anime to me."

The entrance to Sector 5 wasn't going to close behind him forever just because he was going to go see to the more immediate need of checking in with AVALANCHE. There's no reason not to assume he planned to collect on his payment at this particular point. No drama with Aerith's mom yet, no brother-in-arms association with Aerith herself yet.

You need to stop hanging out at clerith central man. And I really do mean that. It's obviously rubbing off on you in a bad way.

 

[penandpaper]

Well, yeah. At the beginning of the game, he's a completely self-serving asshole. You're giving him way too much credit if you thought "But it'll cost you" was a coy game.

I know that this post wasn't directed at me, but I wanted to respond to this point, so I hope that this is okay and if not then I'm sorry.

Would I say it was a coy game? No, not really. I think if he could have gotten something out of her then he would have, but I'd also point out that by this point his "badass solider who cares about no one and nothing but himself" facade was weakening. In a previous scene with Tifa, he tells her that he's going to leave and she tries to convince him to stay, bringing up their promise. He chooses to stay.

Not only is it implied in-game that his decision to stay is based on the promise and not the money, but I think there's a quote somewhere that indicates the same. I... can try to find it if needed. My apologies for not having it on hand.

Nonetheless, even if his motivation is clearly the promise and not the money, Composite!Cloud clearly tries to maintain his facade of not caring about anyone but himself by demanding more money. Would he have left anyway had Barrett refused to give him the money even though the signs suggest that he stayed because of the promise and not the money? And given that this seems to suggest that at least some of his behavior is an act, would he really have left Aerith helpless at the hands of the Turks who he describes in terms that he uses? Especially when he didn't really know why they wanted her, just that they did. It appears to be very similar to the act he pulled before with Tifa, at least to me. Blustering for payment to maintain the show, while his actual motivations are different.

And following the thought that he planned to come back for the date, if his "payment" was so important to him, shouldn't he have tried to make some plans to come back for it instead of just trying to leave before Aerith stops him? Try to figure out how this was going to work instead of just leaving. How is he supposed to know that she'll still be willing when he comes back or that she'll just be waiting around for him? He might lose out on his payment if he does nothing to confirm after all. I just double checked a script and I don't see anything indicating that he planned to come back. It looks more like he planned to go back to Tifa's bar alone initially until Aerith intervened and he doesn't reference any intention to return. Now can I prove this to be an absolute matter of fact? No, not really, so I won't try. Perhaps you're right and he just planned to return later, but it seems odd to me that he makes no further reference of payment in this matter of it was so important to him.

Just an idea anyway.

 

[Ryushikaze]

What really indicates that Cloud wasn't interested in the date as payment, or even any payment, really, for such a simple job, was that he tried to leave, several times, without payment.

Fake Cloud is still made up of parts of Real Cloud, and Real Cloud wants to be the hero for the sake of being a hero. Granted, he's also made up of parts of Zack, but Zack didn't let the payment drop. Zack asked for the date, and made sure he got it. Cloud, in contrast, is offered the date, doesn't agree or disagree to it, and never brings up the date again, it's always Aerith reminding him.
It really look like Cloud is, well, oblivious of what the date means to Aerith. Given her demeanor, it's possible he might have thought she was joking.

Cloud's playing the hardass in demanding payment, yes, but he drops the whole thing ASAP.

 

[JayM]

Real Cloud wants to be the hero for the sake of being a hero.

Personally, I think this is really important to the Cloud/Aeris relationship. Regardless of romantic connection, Cloud wants to protect her on Disc 1 because it fits with the persona he's maintaining. Aeris is the hero's girl. He's the hero.

Bear with me because I have a lot of thoughts on this and they may come out alllll jumbled. Aeris initially is presented as helpless (when you first bump into her she's a bystander; when you fall into the church the game distracts you from realizing she's probably saved your life and is sort of your guide through the slums by having her attacked). She's a healer. She dated a SOLDIER and I think it's very significant that it was Zack (and IIRC Sephiroth, in the drafts before Zack existed?), the person Cloud is emulating. The game's deliberately sending you vibes about what role Aeris is supposed to play in the story.

And in-world, Cloud's picking up on those vibes, too.

(Now, one of the things that makes FFVII fucking fantastic is that Aeris actually does have a backbone and a pretty dominating personality, but I'm trying really hard to make my actual point and not go off on a fangirly tangent here.)

There was a thread on CxA awhile back comparing Cloud's reactions to Aeris to his reactions to Tifa. While I disagreed with the conclusion they drew, the comparison's telling. Cloud does, I think, display a protectiveness towards Aeris early on. But I think it's disingenuous to argue this is solely because of an interest in her.

She validates his existence as the hero in a way that Tifa (who can physically protect herself, who allows Cloud his space, who knows Cloud's past) does not.

I do think Cloud's interested in her, ftr; I think he cares a lot about her. But I think he would act very similarly towards her in Disc 1 even if he didn't care very much.

While I'm posting let me just say, thank you, folks; these last several pages have been a very good read and I'm really enjoying all of the meta-talk. I hope it continues for awhile.

 

[Wolfmania]

Regardless of romantic connection, Cloud wants to protect her on Disc 1 because it fits with the persona he's maintaining. Aeris is the hero's girl. He's the hero.

I agree. And to complement this point, there's even another interpretation that might be added.

Spoiler: 6:25

As we know. Zack gave Cloud everything, he asked Cloud, to live both their lives. What was an integral part of Zack's life? Protecting Aerith.

This is bolstered by Zack's line in question above: 'When you see Aerith. I'm counting on you.'

And, considering Cloud's S-Cells made Zack literally a part of Cloud until the Lifestream sequence, one would not be surprised to find that would fit his protective nature.

Granted, fake!Cloud had absolutely forgotten about that promise(love the moments in ACC that come back to this, by the way), but maybe that was the part of Cloud's memory that shone through and acted behind fake!Cloud? The one who remembered his promise to Zack?

Granted as well that after Cloud remembers, it hits his pysche like a truck in AC, but then again, that's why Cloud's guilty, or feels in such way.

Just a thought.

 

[Danseru-kun]

There was a thread on CxA awhile back comparing Cloud's reactions to Aeris to his reactions to Tifa. While I disagreed with the conclusion they drew, the comparison's telling. Cloud does, I think, display a protectiveness towards Aeris early on. But I think it's disingenuous to argue this is solely because of an interest in her.

She validates his existence as the hero in a way that Tifa (who can physically protect herself, who allows Cloud his space, who knows Cloud's past) does not.

I think another reason why Cloud is protective is Aerith being alone and apparently helpless against those men. Tifa has Barret and the whole Avalanche to fight with her.

And feel free to dismiss this if we're still talking about another topic but I wanted to ask something. Though I do believe that Cloud shared a real bond with Aerith and genuinely want to protect her, do you think that at least some of his actions towards her are because of Zack's influence? Can this be verified?

EDIT: Wolfmania had the same thing in mind as I, our posts were published roughly the same time.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Again please show me where someone takes an offer of a date seriously when he makes zero effort to get said date and never brings it up again.

I would love for you to actually explain that.

This is the kind of claim that baffles me so much. How is it that he makes no effort to get the date when he performs exactly the service requested in exchange?

Really?

Yes.

Really?

Yes?

He could have easily said 7th heaven or anything other than "Tifa's Bar". Which prompts Aerith to wonder if Tifa is his girlfriend.

It seems Aerith understands the implication of the statement. Why don't you?

What exactly is the implication of the statement other than that he personally knows the owner? That implies she's his girlfriend? When the notion can be refuted as soon as Aerith inquires into it?

If Tifa getting jealous over Aerith doesn't prove anything about Cloud's feelings for Aerith (and it doesn't), why are you suggesting the reverse would be true? You get really annoyed when the other claim is made.

"Looks like one of those mischievous/cocky nose rubs you see in anime to me."

Yet he doesn't say he's kidding about payment, instead doing exactly what was asked. It comes off as cocky because of the deal, because this will be a cinch or something to that effect.

You need to stop hanging out at clerith central man. And I really do mean that. It's obviously rubbing off on you in a bad way.

I'm going to try not to get pissed off about this comment (even though I'm extremely offended), and just ask you to show me when I've ever discussed this topic at "Clerith Central." If you can't (and you can't), a retraction would be much appreciated.

I know that this post wasn't directed at me, but I wanted to respond to this point, so I hope that this is okay and if not then I'm sorry.

Would I say it was a coy game? No, not really. I think if he could have gotten something out of her then he would have, but I'd also point out that by this point his "badass solider who cares about no one and nothing but himself" facade was weakening. In a previous scene with Tifa, he tells her that he's going to leave and she tries to convince him to stay, bringing up their promise. He chooses to stay.

Not only is it implied in-game that his decision to stay is based on the promise and not the money, but I think there's a quote somewhere that indicates the same. I... can try to find it if needed. My apologies for not having it on hand.

Nonetheless, even if his motivation is clearly the promise and not the money, Composite!Cloud clearly tries to maintain his facade of not caring about anyone but himself by demanding more money. Would he have left anyway had Barrett refused to give him the money even though the signs suggest that he stayed because of the promise and not the money? And given that this seems to suggest that at least some of his behavior is an act, would he really have left Aerith helpless at the hands of the Turks who he describes in terms that he uses? Especially when he didn't really know why they wanted her, just that they did. It appears to be very similar to the act he pulled before with Tifa, at least to me. Blustering for payment to maintain the show, while his actual motivations are different.

I can see that as well now that you put it like that -- genuinely trying to get something out of her if he could, even if he was willing to help otherwise. Maybe it gives him too much credit, maybe it's just enough.

Obviously, I don't expect much from him at that point, but I can give that possibility due consideration.

And following the thought that he planned to come back for the date, if his "payment" was so important to him, shouldn't he have tried to make some plans to come back for it instead of just trying to leave before Aerith stops him? Try to figure out how this was going to work instead of just leaving. How is he supposed to know that she'll still be willing when he comes back or that she'll just be waiting around for him? He might lose out on his payment if he does nothing to confirm after all. I just double checked a script and I don't see anything indicating that he planned to come back. It looks more like he planned to go back to Tifa's bar alone initially until Aerith intervened and he doesn't reference any intention to return. Now can I prove this to be an absolute matter of fact? No, not really, so I won't try. Perhaps you're right and he just planned to return later, but it seems odd to me that he makes no further reference of payment in this matter of it was so important to him.

Just an idea anyway.

That's not an unfair reading. That's why I say he may have decided she was more trouble than she was worth by that point. But he does know where to find her later if he chooses (like Zack, he knows she hangs out at the church). It's not terribly clear either way, so I don't have a strong opinion of either possibility.

 

[Celes Chere]

Again please show me where someone takes an offer of a date seriously when he makes zero effort to get said date and never brings it up again.

Doesn't he say "I am your body guard, right?" at one point? Admitting he's her body guard is pretty much agreeing to the date, since he is well aware of what the conditions for that are. And if I'm remembering wrong, there are many times where he shows genuine concern for Aerith, and wants to go off and protect her. Especially when she appears to him in his dream when she goes off to the Forgotten City. He only tries to get rid of her the first time they meet. After the one date as payment thing, he lets her stay and he forms a connection with her just like anyone else. (except there is NO denying their connection isn't stronger than most, arguably as strong as his connection with Tifa, though in a different way. Of course this is my opinion)

You need to stop hanging out at clerith central man. And I really do mean that. It's obviously rubbing off on you in a bad way

Wow, really? What a fucking insult to Tres and to other people. Even if you don't like them, you don't have to treat others that way. I don't get along with a lot of people there, but I do think Tres has a mind of his own and I don't think we need to act like someone is getting brainwashed over a stupid debate.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

He could have easily said 7th heaven or anything other than "Tifa's Bar". Which prompts Aerith to wonder if Tifa is his girlfriend.

It seems Aerith understands the implication of the statement. Why don't you?

>tifa gets jealous of aerith=doesn't mean anything is going on
>aerith gets jealous of tifa=means that aerith understands cloud and tifa are dating

im sorry im going to need some time away from this thread to let myself stop snortgiggling every time vendel uses an argument he hates the other side using

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Well, yeah. At the beginning of the game, he's a completely self-serving asshole. You're giving him way too much credit if you thought "But it'll cost you" was a coy game.

He obviously cares about her being in dangerous situations even in the beginning. He's an aloof ass, but he's not someone who would leave a defensless flowergirl in the hands of Turks. Giving Barret and Tifa shit for their ecoterrorist ways is totally different. He doesn't care about a larger cause, it's not that he doesn't care about people at all. He stays for fucking Tifa, doesn't he?
He straight up moves in front of Aeris towards Reno when he shows up and she hides behind him. Ja I don't buy it. He's quite nice to her and they talk, he even apologizes for crushing her flowers. She just helped him come about and , I dunno, didn't rob him. She tells him she bought a flower from her....and then he's like, oh shady Turks outside your door, gurl. You're on your own! Toodles!

Ja I dun buy.

The entrance to Sector 5 wasn't going to close behind him forever just because he was going to go see to the more immediate need of checking in with AVALANCHE. There's no reason not to assume he planned to collect on his payment at this particular point. No drama with Aerith's mom yet, no brother-in-arms association with Aerith herself yet.

If there's no reason to assume, that he isn't returning then why does Aeris do exactly that?She decides right then and there without any input from Cloud that she's going to take him to S7 and stalks him at the crack of dawn against his wishes and then gets herself involved of her own volition even though he's telling her to go home. She persists! Against his own wishes! Are you saying she's all casual about it?

Lady planned to stick around as long as she could. If you offer to take her home, she tries to dissuade you by being all like..."y cloud isn't that out fo the way?". Cloud takes her with him because it's the safer option. For someone who still has an outstanding payment and a surefire way to see Cloud, she sure as fuck doesn't act like it.

In any case, you're overlooking that Aerith herself planned to go home at that point even while you're arguing that only she had been serious about the date. Does her willingness to go home here mean she wasn't serious about it?

She hires Cloud as her bodyguard until she gets home. She then follows him AFTER he leaves without payment to show him the way. Why must she do that? She's gonna see him again cause he has to get his payment, right? I'm gonna need an explanation for Aeris' behavior that's better than "it's just quirky Aeris".

Why does she want to keep him beyond his originally stated duties (taking her home, away from the church)? He's going to be back, he hasn't collected yet. He's my bodyguard, she tells her mother, it'll be fine if she shows him S7. She wants to prolong it. That's fucking obvious. Fuck, even Maiden comments on this.

This is not brand new information!!

 

[penandpaper]

Doesn't he say "I am your body guard, right?" at one point? Admitting he's her body guard is pretty much agreeing to the date, since he is well aware of what the conditions for that are.

I hope that you don't mind my commenting on your post and if you do then I apologize. I actually don't disagree with you for the most part, but this part bothers me. You call it a condition, but is it really a condition or was it suggested payment on Aerith's part? If he becomes her bodyguard is he required to go on a date with her or is it a possible option? So, he's not allowed to help her if he doesn't want the date because that means he has to go along with it? That... is definitely not how I read it, but I could be wrong.

She offered and he has the option of taking her up on it when he helps her, but he isn't really obligated to accept the date if he decides that leaving this kind girl at the mercy of the Turks is perhaps not something he wants to do. She's the one obligated (And even that terminology bothers me, but I suppose that it would be accurate in this case even if it kind of makes me uncomfortable to think of it in those terms.) to carry through with it in this situation since she offered the payment in return for his help, but he has the option to turn it away if he decides he'd prefer not to take her up on it.

As a more real life example, let's say a friend asks me to help paint his/her house and agrees to pay me a bit. Am I obligated to accept that payment if I decide that I'd rather just be a good friend and help him/her or can I turn down the money? Is it a condition of agreeing to help that I must accept the money?

Does that make sense?

Edit: Also, I'd like to add my own thank yous here as well. This has been a fun debate. Thank you everyone for putting up with me and letting me participate.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

I hope that you don't mind my commenting on your post and if you do then I apologize. I actually don't disagree with you for the most part, but this part bothers me. You call it a condition, but is it really a condition or was it suggested payment on Aerith's part? If he becomes her bodyguard is he required to go on a date with her or is it a possible option? So, he's not allowed to help her if he doesn't want the date because that means he has to go along with it? That... is definitely not how I read it, but I could be wrong.

As a more real example, let's say a friend asks me to help paint their house and agrees to pay me a bit. Am I obligated to accept that payment if I decide that I'd rather just be a good friend and help them or can I turn down the money?

Does that make sense?

there are a few distinctions to make here: cloud is not you, cloud, at this point, is a huge enough asshole to demand money from a guy who says its going to his daughter's schooling. so he's not really shown to be the sort of guy who would just do something out of the good of his heart. even if he DOES have a protect-the-girls persona, he wasn't willing to help her unless she paid him in something.

she didn't say money, so it would be wrong for him to assume he'd get money out of this deal. instead, she suggests a date, and he thereafter protects her. given what we're shown about cloud, he seemed to find that form of payment suitable, and given he's not one to reject payments even if they're a friend, it didn't seem likely he wsa just going to reject her date.

 

[penandpaper]

there are a few distinctions to make here: cloud is not you, cloud, at this point, is a huge enough asshole to demand money from a guy who says its going to his daughter's schooling. so he's not really shown to be the sort of guy who would just do something out of the good of his heart. even if he DOES have a protect-the-girls persona, he wasn't willing to help her unless she paid him in something.

she didn't say money, so it would be wrong for him to assume he'd get money out of this deal. instead, she suggests a date, and he thereafter protects her. given what we're shown about cloud, he seemed to find that form of payment suitable, and given he's not one to reject payments even if they're a friend, it didn't seem likely he wsa just going to reject her date.

You're right that Cloud is not me and I didn't intend the example to be used in that way. I was making a different point. I apologize if I was unclear.

But had Barret told him no, would he have left? He stayed for the promise with Tifa, not the money as I mentioned in my last post. To maintain the show of being the tough, uncaring soldier he demands the money, but that isn't his concern. I'm pretty sure that I remember a quote that mentions that the promise changed his mind (If anyone has it, I'd be really grateful if you could tell me where to find it.). If you'd like, I can try to find it.

Given that we were given a sneak peak beneath the act he puts on with Tifa, why are we assuming that he'd only help her if he got something out of it? He stayed for the promise after he already told Tifa that he was leaving and protecting people, even while he's messed up, is repeatedly shown to be important to him. Would he have accepted payment had she really offered (I mean something more then the date)? Probably. That wasn't what she offered though and afterward there's never really an indication that I can see that he took the date offer seriously. He's no knight in shining armor at this point certainly, but there are indications that he has motivations other then getting something in return. Otherwise the promise wouldn't have changed his mind because presumably he'd have demanded something in return from her and not just Barrett. It was her request after all. If he'll only do something for something... what was Tifa's payment?

Besides, that wasn't the question of this post. Is he obligated to accept the date for helping her? To add to that, why does he never bring up the date again? He brings up that he's her bodyguard (The part that seems to matter to him- protecting people), but never mentions that she owes him a date. If that's what's on his mind, why not say it? He's hardly above demanding his due and she does owe him.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

You're right that Cloud is not me and I didn't intend the example to be used in that way. I was making a different point. I apologize if I was unclear.

But had Barret told him no, would he have left? He stayed for the promise with Tifa, not the money as I mentioned in my last post. To maintain the show of being the tough, uncaring soldier he demands the money, but that isn't his concern. I'm pretty sure that I remember a quote that mentions that the promise changed his mind (If anyone has it, I'd be really grateful if you could tell me where to find it.). If you'd like, I can try to find it.

Given that we were given a sneak peak beneath the act he puts on with Tifa, why are we assuming that he'd only help her if he got something out of it? He stayed for the promise after he already told Tifa that he was leaving and protecting people, even while he's messed up, is repeatedly shown to be important to him. Would he have accepted payment had she really offered (I mean something more then the date)? Probably. That wasn't what she offered though and afterward there's never really an indication that I can see that he took the date offer seriously. He's no knight in shining armor at this point certainly, but there are indications that he has motivations other then getting something in return. Otherwise the promise wouldn't have changed his mind because presumably he'd have demanded something in return from her and not just Barrett. It was her request after all. If he'll only do something for something... what was Tifa's payment?

Besides, that wasn't the question of this post. Is he obligated to accept the date for helping her? To add to that, why does he never bring up the date again? He brings up that he's her bodyguard (The part that seems to matter to him- protecting people), but never mentions that she owes him a date. If that's what's on his mind, why not say it? He's hardly above demanding his due and she does owe him.

the thing with cloud tho is that even in his messed up state, he realizes that the promise he made to tifa is something important.

moreover he doesn't really need to bring up the date with aerith since the creators referred to their playground chat as a date. therefore her bringing up 'the deal was for one date right?' would probably be referring to their chat there as their date.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

....if the date was fulfilled, is the date at gold saucer a SECOND date? That would mean that it has no particular connection to Aeris' original statement about the date as payment (it's already been fulfilled).

Also, if Aeris considers that their date, I lol. Pardon me, but "taking a break" at the playground is her idea, she deliberately takes him where she went on her first date with Zack, after using Zack's line on him, proceeds to talk about her boyfriend, and Cloud (who is totally into her), is all like: "tell me more about this ex of yours, maybe I know him, let's prolong this convo about your ex"

Ok, if that's your reading

 

[penandpaper]

the thing with cloud tho is that even in his messed up state, he realizes that the promise he made to tifa is something important.

moreover he doesn't really need to bring up the date with aerith since the creators referred to their playground chat as a date. therefore her bringing up 'the deal was for one date right?' would probably be referring to their chat there as their date.

So there are things important to him that don't involve getting something in return then? Things that can motivate him? So, protecting people could be a motivator as well, right? So, given that protecting people is repeatedly shown as being important to him even in his messed up state and that Aerith is in serious trouble, something he recognizes, can that be the motivating factor to help her?

Indeed the date is referenced as what happened in the park. And yet Aerith brings it up later when she's captured as though she still owes it and I think that you argued that Cloud's mentioning that he was her bodyguard was a reference to him wanting the date (Please do correct me if I'm incorrect. I'm not trying to misquote you.), even though Aerith is the only one to mention it. Could it be that the one the date was important to was Aerith ("The deal was for one date, right?), while protecting those he cares for is what's important to Cloud ("Hey, I'm your bodyguard, right?"). I will also note that he still never actually confirms that he's expecting a date in return. Now Tifa interrupts, but if the date is Cloud's motivating factor to help Aerith, why doesn't he ever seem to confirm this fact? Why was it never important enough to be brought up in the script?

 

[Octo]

This is the script from the cells:

Aerith "Cloud, are you there?"

Cloud "Aerith!? You safe?"

Aerith "Yeah, I'm all right." (She swings her legs over the side of the cot.)

Aerith "I knew that Cloud would come for me."

Cloud "Hey, I'm your bodyguard, right?"

(She walks to the door of her cell.)

Aerith "The deal was for one date, right?"

I don't really buy this thing about the playground chat being 'the date', Aerith just asks Cloud to take a break (cos its such a loooong journey to sector 7 lol) and also, if you remember when she goes to Cloud's room in the Gold Saucer she says:

Aerith "You want to go on a date?"

Cloud "What?"

Aerith "A DA-TE! Or haven't you ever gone on one?"

Seems weird that she would ask that if she was counting the playground chat as the date.

 

[Strangelove]

If you were to take the scene in the park as the date they agreed upon, then could you therefore read Aerith's 'the deal was for one date' line as a kind of casual reference to this deal that's already been resolved in the past, like "yeah, remember that thing that happened?"

I don't know, I still think calling the Green Park scene a 'date' is stretching it a bit and it referring to the later date scene makes more sense.

Aerith "A DA-TE! Or haven't you ever gone on one?"

lolz aerith you cheeky bitch

 

[Octo]

If you were to take the scene in the park as the date they agreed upon, then could you therefore read Aerith's 'the deal was for one date' line as a kind of casual reference to this deal that's already been resolved in the past, like "yeah, remember that thing that happened?"

Yeah, that seems unlikely. I just think she was still pushing the romance angle, especially after she said 'I knew Cloud would come for me' and then he's all cool about it like 'I'm your bodyguard right' Like he's trying to turn it into a business thing and she wants to steer the conversation away from that?

EDIT: I'm not trying to say that Cloud was being a bastard to Aerith there, rather hes just playing the 'cool mercenary' persona.

I don't know, I still think calling the Green Park scene a 'date' is stretching it a bit and it referring to the later date scene makes more sense.

Is 'Green Park' its official name? I didn't know that.

Also, I'd love to think the park chat counted as a date, because that would mean that I've been on hundreds of dates

 

[Strangelove]

Yeah, that seems unlikely. I just think she was still pushing the romance angle, especially after she said 'I knew Cloud would come for me' and then he's all cool about it like 'I'm your bodyguard right' Like he's trying to turn it into a business thing and she wants to steer the conversation away from that?

I think that's just... Aerith being Aerith? man-eating hussy Like she is obviously interested in him, so she flirts with him. And Cloud is just playing the badass suave guy.

idk i just like the sound of my keyboard

Now I want to check books for more about this, like a geeky da Vinci Code

Is 'Green Park' its official name? I didn't know that.

I can't remember if it appears like that in the game (like on the menu screen where it says the location), someone might need to collar Shademp to check that. But that is the name (midori-kouen) it's given outside of the game.

Also, I'd love to think the park chat counted as a date, because that would mean that I've been on hundreds of dates

I'd ask what kind of date seems to involve talking about your ex counts as a date.

Then I look at some of my past ones.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

i just particularly remember one thread like forever ago wherein quex mentioned that in an official statement that was brought up as a date

i can't even remember the sauce just that quex mentioned it being somewhere

 

[Strangelove]

Ultimania Omega stuff I looked up.

Prison cell scene: no mention about Aerith's reference to the date in the story playback. Tifa's profile mentions her being jealous.

Green Park scene: just calls it them taking a break.

I don't. think that did much good.

i just particularly remember one thread like forever ago wherein quex mentioned that in an official statement that was brought up as a date

i can't even remember the sauce just that quex mentioned it being somewhere

That was the Crisis Core Complete Guide keywords section.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

yeah just found the original stuff:

公園でのデート
Scene04-10でザックスとエアリスは、六番街スラムのみどり公園でデートをする。これと同様のシチュエーションが「FFVII」にも描かれており、同公園でクラウドとエアリスがデ ートをしているシーンが登場している。
Date in the Park
In Scene 04-10, Zack and Aerith have a date in Green Park in the sector 6 slum. An identical situation is seen in FFVII as well, and it features a scene of Cloud and Aerith on a date in the same park.

so there you go