The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Roger]

they aren't different people though

fractured cloud is still a part of cloud, he is still there is disc one. that's why aeris can see through him and get so close to him in a short amount of time, he's not missing, just blurred and buried.

the crazy cells helped him adopt the persona but it's still cloud who chose it based on his own insecurities which is why his "zack" persona isn't really zack

aeris even makes the distinction herself; cloud can mimic zack's movements, but he is still a different person


also let's take a minute to appreciate that having cloud m.i.a on disk one makes zero sense story wise

like

hey let's introduce this character to cloud's storyline who's death is going to really be the turning point for the entire game and have an emotional impact the size of a crater that follows cloud even in ac but

let's cheapen that emotional impact by having him autopilot on disk one so his feelings don't count

As opposed to cheapening the entire plot of the game by saying that Cloud was never really that different when he was being manipulated after all. And no, the Disc 1 Cloud was not just a part of Cloud.
It was also a good part Tifa's memories of him he used the Jenova inside him to copy from her. He was part what he thought a SOLDIER should be like, part what Tifa always saw Cloud as.
Hence why at the beginning of the game he really IS picking fights with Barret, trying to be loner all that stuff, as opposed to back in Nibelheim when Tifa just saw things like that having not been told what happened when she was six years old that set everyone up against Cloud.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Okay then. Prove it.

Maybe he was attracted enough to get her out of imminent danger and walk her home, but not enough to stay there?

First, Elmyra asks him to leave. Second, the dude had other responsibilities. Not to mention already tweaking feelings for Tifa. He was a member of a terrorist organization, so yeah, holing up all night in a strangers house may not be the best bet. But since you insisted... (and these are off the top of my head so if they may not be in order)

He has the option to be jealous over mentions of Zack. Optional or not, it's fucking there. Why would he be jealous if he wasn't attracted?

He has the option to declare "No way!" when asked if Tifa is his girl, a rather abrupt denial if there ever was one. Interpret that as you will, but it can be EASILY interpreted as wanting to establish his availability.

Cloud doesn't deny the deal for the date when in the cells at Shinra. Even with Tifa in his cell and Tifa gets miffed. Now would be a really good time to spit out "I never accepted". Again, interpret however you want, but it CAN be interpreted as continued acceptance.

There's a conversation with Marlene that ends with "I won't tell Tifa" (I can't recall the exact wording but it IS about Aerith and Cloud.)

He can and does go on a date with Aerith. Bad ass Soldier-boy won't get dragged anywhere he doesn't want to go.

It's early and I'm lazy. I'm sure there are more, but there you go. You can argue that you don't see things that way, and kudos, but the fact is that within the narrative these actions CAN be and (for the sake of continuity and logic) should be interpreted as signals of interest.

Attraction doesn't mean love. But to deny there was any attraction just makes people look like their shipper panties are bunched.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Hence why at the beginning of the game he really IS picking fights with Barret, trying to be loner all that stuff, as opposed to back in Nibelheim when Tifa just saw things like that having not been told what happened when she was six years old that set everyone up against Cloud.

i thought picking fights was part of his personality to make people like him and think he was cool thus tifa telling him 'you always got into fights with the other kids back then'

 

[Wolfmania]

Obviously puppet Cloud was somewhat romantically attracted to Aerith, the game makes that somewhat clear. Puppet Cloud is not the real Cloud, however. And to say they would act the same with her is a stretch.

What you are saying is basically without evidence to support It, unfortunately. You cannot say that the real Cloud had any feelings of romance or love towards Aerith based on puppet Cloud's interactions with her, namely their dialogue and the facts Cloud might or not have agreed to go on a date with her. All of that is unusable when trying to argue Cloud was romantically attracted to the girl given It's like arguing why wouldn't 'Zack' accept to go on a date with a pretty lady.

Paint the scenary witht the Cloud we know from the end of FFVII and the Compilation. Would his responses have been the same, despite being an entierly different personality? Think of real personality disorder cases here. There exist diametrically opposed personalities in the same mind. Only luckily for Cloud, he was able to expunge his fake self in a catharsis.

And to say fake Cloud was not that different from his real self, or that he was still in a large level his own person, is just completely cheapening the most important aspect and theme of his character, the fact he was lost and not himself. Heck, let me take a quote from the big boss herself, then:

'I'd like to meet the real you some day'

Can It be certified that real!Cloud posseses romantic attractions to Aerith enough on the point that he would take her on a real date? Moreover the fact that puppet!Cloud's memories of Tifa and such were repressed at the time? Could It be said that Post-Lifestream Cloud still feels anything but platonic love for his friend after becoming aware of his real memories and Tifa's feelings? Moreover would he ever have or not agreed to a date? To add to that, what you said about assimilating memories, Tres, is ambiguous. One can have memories of feelings not possesed anymore. If anything, puppet!Cloud's attraction to Aerith would be just that. A memory of how he acted and used to feel. Not an actual tangible feeling that the real!Cloud obtained through his own interactions.

The crux of the argument is that no romantic implications have ever been shown between real!Cloud and Aerith. She's obviously an important person to him, as is Zack, but their interactions don't speak for anything romantic.

If anyone does want to say that real!Cloud has any sort of romantic inclination towards Aerith, I'd just like something more solid to substantiate the claim. All I see when they meet in AC is the desire for forgiveness.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Zee stop

you don't know what love is

Also I want to add I am SO TIRED of people saying "Aerith made Cloud do this, Tifa made Cloud do that" they didn't MAKE Cloud do anything. Anything he chose to do, he did by himself without being forced. Cloud accepted Aerith's date payment. I believe that Aerith's date scene is canon, do I think it means love...? No. But she didn't push him or force him to accept it. Same with Tifa. She didn't force Cloud into their promise.

Well, they did, but only on the date sequences.

I still think the idea of the date is something Cloud didn't even actually think about. Like the 'you'll have to pay,' it fit the persona, but protecting, period, sublimates an urge for Cloud.

Cloud never accepted the date. He never refused, he never accepted. He just didn't care. Hell, he probably forgot about it. It definitely looks like he did by the time the time Aerith decides to go on one.

Also, Cloud was NOT HIMSELF on Disc 1. This is definitely NOT to say Cloud was someone else, but Cloud was a bizarre admixture of four different influences, including himself, Zack, Tifa, and Jenova/ Sephiroth tampering.
RealCloud is aware of FakeCloud, and can be affected by people Fakecloud meets and things he does, without being the one in charge.
Remember, Realcloud is the voice in Fakecloud's head.

 

[Roger]

i thought picking fights was part of his personality to make people like him and think he was cool thus tifa telling him 'you always got into fights with the other kids back then'

"The other kids" either thought he was responsible for putting Tifa in a coma for week, or were those three kids that knew better but let actively let thm think it to cover their own asses. He was terrible at making friends before but the fighting thing didn't starr after that. Tifa's perception of Cloud was skewed because of the things her friends weren't telling her, and her memories became fake Cloud's memories. She didn't know he was always pinning for her, so neither did he. I dunno if real Cloud would have been attracted to Aerith, but there's a reason why the multiple choice thing stopped when we got Cloud back after the Lifestream Sequencee, the guy that took over already had his mind made up.

 

[Master Bates]

My personal stance on Cloud's feelings towards Aerith remains unchanged.

It was made apparent in the game that Cloud felt attracted to her. Whether it was because of the Zack part of him or because of something else, we will never know, but the thing is: he was attracted. This attraction made him gravitate towards Aerith. Yet did he love her romantically? That is the question.

My personal stance in this ever since the beginning was that he was slowly falling in love, but FELL IN LOVE he didn't. Of course this is arguable, but definitely not implausible. I'd even hold it in my headcanon that this is what happened in the game. His reasons and factors for falling so are not completely irrelevant and the factors are many (added by Aerith's death and Cloud's guilt). These feelings combined with internal and external factors made him conflicted and conflict turned to confusion, confusion which translates to unsolvable mystery. Ergo, Aerith is a mystery to Cloud. The fact that she's dead and will remain dead just makes her a mystery which he will never be able to solve.

And I personally like it this way. *snubs*

 

[Strangelove]

I know I'd be irritated if people were constantly going "Haha, Clotis and their fake relationship beliefs they don't understand love at all"

That has happened in the past. I can't cite specific examples, but I remember feeling the same sense of how insulting it is to say that people don't understand love in reality because of how they viewed a fictional pairing/their preference, only it was C/T fans who didn't understand back then.

I'm sure they are people who carry these views on how love should be, seemingly influenced by fiction, over into their real lives. Like the Twilight fans who wish they had their own Edward to sneak into their room at night to watch them and be really possessive and seem to really mean it. That's not a healthy way of looking at life, and I suppose "if there's problems/fighting then the relationship is bound not to work out" is another that isn't practical if you're taking that view towards real life relationships.

But not everyone is going to be like that, some are just going to like that particular story in fiction and nothing more.

Re: fake/real Cloud: Even if he wasn't completely himself at the start, I don't think what he felt during that time would suddenly disappear after he regained himself. I don't think everything that happened then necessarily reflects the truth (I don't think Cloud not remembering his promise at first, which he remembered in detail seconds later, means that it meant nothing to him like some say), but I think things like the feelings and friendships (like with Barret) he formed during that period still meant something. Whatever personality he has at the start and even if he might have reacted differently with his original personality, what he experienced then is going to stay with him. Otherwise, why would he feel any remorse about causing Aerith's death (even if he didn't really) if everything that happened to him while in his false persona wouldn't apply to him post-Lifestream?

did someone say that already whatever im a lion

 

[Wolfmania]

Ryu puts up a good point there.

While puppet Cloud and real Cloud are the same physical person, people are applying far too much analogies to them and their feelings.

The alternate persona works just like that. An alternate personality created by various influences on Cloud's mind.
In such cases of this mental disorder, the original is still self-aware and not in a strange synthesis with the fake Cloud. It's why real Cloud posseses none of fake Cloud's traits. He loses all the Zack swagger, all the arrogance, the personality and attitude, he changes his clothes and even fights with a different sword-style. He knows what feelings his fake-self held, and he has all the memories, but his own feelings aren't synthesized or analogus to fake Cloud's.

Such a difference is pivotal in Cloud's characterization on being a lost mind, buried beneath the trauma. Which is why you can't possibly try and apply fake Cloud's feelings/reactions to real Cloud.

Cloud is three different personalities in one, but only one of them is the true original. And if someone wants to prove something in regards to Cloud, they should try and use his own true self.

Which leads us back to showing some evidence that real Cloud is romantically attracted to Aerith, and why I think you can't possibly prove that by showing one of Cloud's fake personas was attracted to Aerith, which he seemed to be. Is it possible real Cloud is attracted to Aerith? Sure. Is it empirically provable? Doubt it. Is it empirically provable that Cloud was romantically attracted to Tifa since he was a child and after he regains his real self? Yes It is.

 

[penandpaper]

I hope that it's okay if I give my two cents on the current topic. If it's not then I can delete the post or something and I apologize. Please do correct me if I am incorrect on anything. Thank you.

I will admit that I've always been intrigued by this aspect because it's never made totally clear where Real!Cloud starts and ends and the same holds true for Composite!Cloud, unless there is some quote that I'm missing that clears it up (I'm not up to date on all the outside information given on the overall Compilation for which I apologize). I'm not sure that there is a clear cut line as to how much of Real!Cloud was encompassed in Composite!Cloud, if any at all.

Cloud does though appear to have two distinct personalities, represented by the two voices that converse within his own head which do not appear to be coming from the same individual given that one of the two clearly has knowledge the other lacks and they appear to be able to think separately from one another (The voice representing Real!Cloud spends most of his time trying to convince Composite!Cloud to figure out/realize the truth, but given that it's always approached in different manner and that Composite!Cloud is unaware of this thought process when Real!Cloud is not trying to reach him, it would seem there is actually thought involved separate from the dominate personality's train of thought. The dominate personality of Composite!Cloud is clearly able to operate without Real!Cloud given that he does for a good portion of the game.).

Truthly, I'm not sure how much overlap occurs between the two personalities when they finally combine or even before that point. Some I assume given that I'd imagine that when the two personalities become a part of one individual, the experiences of the composite persona would become part of Real!Cloud in some sense, but even that's not totally clear cut given that, while Real!Cloud may only have a limited amount of influence over his composite persona, he is still clearly aware of what's going on around him (Ex. Asking if he's alright after the fall in the church and commenting about how he used to be able to get away with just skinned knees and trying to stop his composite persona from giving the Black Materia to Sephiroth). He may not be experiencing things as Composite!Cloud does, but he is aware during the game and I don't see why he wouldn't be able to develop affection for those around him all on his own. He still clearly cares for his friends after regaining himself, but how much of that comes from Composite!Cloud and how much from Real!Cloud? I have no idea and I have zero idea how romantic attraction in particular would transfer or if Real!Cloud ever felt a romantic attraction for Aerith given that he has only limited influence over himself. But then again, limited influence is not the same as no influence although it's usually indicated in the game when Real!Cloud is active.

Overall, I think that it's a complicated point and that complexity is part of what I love about the game. There isn't much that is clear cut in the game, but there isn't much in life that is clear cut either.

 

[Celes Chere]

More of this real!Cloud doesn't feel things business, lol. While I think Cloud being in his state during the first disc put a damper on he and Aerith's relationship (and also that Aerith saw Zack in Cloud for x amount of time, not sure the exact time she stopped believing in that), I also do know he formed a REAL bond with Aerith, despite his fake persona. If he hadn't, he would not have the bond her has with her in AC. He wouldn't have cared so much when she died, and he wouldn't want to avenge her so much if he hadn't formed a connection with her. He also thanks Aerith, the Ultimania states they have a special bond and that she will always be remembered in his heart. Why would the 'real' Cloud feel that if it was all fake? Obviously Aerith reached through to the real Cloud, despite his mental issues.

 

[Zee]

aeris is always quoted as someone that's "engraved in cloud's heart, in his heart, someone he'd never forget" and when sephiroth asks him about what's important, she's right up there on the list with tifa/the family and zack

obviously something about her really got him, despite his fractured state, which means he must have felt something intense for it to get under the six inch layer of crap in his head.

 

[Ryushikaze]

More of this real!Cloud doesn't feel things business, lol. While I think Cloud being in his state during the first disc put a damper on he and Aerith's relationship (and also that Aerith saw Zack in Cloud for x amount of time, not sure the exact time she stopped believing in that), I also do know he formed a REAL bond with Aerith, despite his fake persona. If he hadn't, he would not have the bond her has with her in AC. He wouldn't have cared so much when she died, and he wouldn't want to avenge her so much if he hadn't formed a connection with her. He also thanks Aerith, the Ultimania states they have a special bond and that she will always be remembered in his heart. Why would the 'real' Cloud feel that if it was all fake? Obviously Aerith reached through to the real Cloud, despite his mental issues.

True enough. My point is that RealCloud is a PASSIVE OBSERVER for the events of Disc 1 while Fake Cloud does his KindaSortaCloudKindaSortaNot thing. What FakeCloud does doesn't necessarily reflect the emotions and mores of RealCloud- not on a conscious level, anyways, I still think that Cloud's base desires still shine through in a subconcious way and in talkyvoice- but what FakeCloud does who he meets, all of that does affect RealCloud, though not necessarily in the same was as FakeCloud, who is a different personality and reacts differently than real Cloud.

Long story short, Fake Cloud's experiences affect Real Cloud, but are not an automatic indicator of how real Cloud would act, react, or feel in the same experiences.

Zee, by that logic, so's all his experiences with the rest of AVALANCHE because all of his experiences with them still affect him when he's back to normal.

The barrier between FakeCloud and RealCloud is keeping RealCloud inside, not preventing RealCloud from sharing FakeCloud's experiences.

 

[Strangelove]

I think even if the face he puts up for the world, the way he acts or behaves, changes it doesn't means that how he feels or felt inside is going to completely change. I don't necessarily think there was this big genre-defining love between him and Aerith, but I think he did feel something special towards her (which doesn't get in the way of anything he feels for Tifa because I think that whole 'one person/soul mate' thing is silly) that was different from how he felt about others. I don't think his mannerisms changing necessarily means all his feelings and emotions have suddenly change.

lolz just kidding, i don't really think about anything

(The voice representing Real!Cloud spends most of his time trying to convince Composite!Cloud to figure out/realize the truth, but given that it's always approached in different manner and that Composite!Cloud is unaware of this thought process when Real!Cloud is not trying to reach him, it would seem there is actually thought involved separate from the dominate personality's train of thought. The dominate personality of Composite!Cloud is clearly able to operate without Real!Cloud given that he does for a good portion of the game.)

if people donate, they might have spotted sneaky little bonuses like translations about the voices cloud hears

the original Cloud himself, the 'present Cloud' that was formed when his personality mixed with Zack's following Hojo's experiments, and Cloud as a Sephiroth Copy

 

[penandpaper]

I... hope that my post wasn't read as believing that Real!Cloud doesn't feel as that definitely wasn't what I was arguing. He appears to be aware of what's going on around him even if he's not the dominate personality and I can't see a reason as to why he wouldn't be able to form his own bonds with the other characters. It's a fact that he not only formed strong bonds with the other characters during the game, but that they clearly remained after he was himself again). I just think that it's a pretty complicated issue though when it comes to figuring out what to attribute to who.

I'm sorry of I'm assuming incorrectly. I'm just not sure how clear my initial post was and I wanted to clarify just in case.

Thank you!

Edit:

if people donate, they might have spotted sneaky little bonuses like translations about the voices cloud hears

If I find spare money for it, then I'll donate. Thank you for the translation though! It's helpful and more information is always helpful in putting together a complete, accurate picture.

 

[Danseru-kun]

I think that everyone accept that Aerith and Cloud shared a special bond and that he has real feelings in disk one. Cloud loved Aerith, but the issue is romance.The thing is though, some of us here feel his actions in disk one cannot be used as evidence for romance since the real Cloud would have acted and reacted differently.

In disk 1, FakeCloud's feelings are from real circumstances, not things he made up in his mind. He's not immune to attraction, love, friendship, pain, hatred etc. However, if RealCloud was in disk 1 from the start, he would certainly act differently towards his friends, towards Tifa and Aerith. Real Cloud may still fight Sephiroth, save the world, save Tifa and Aerith, hate Shinra etc. but the way he will treat these people around him will not be the same as the Fake Cloud. It's not totally off to say that Real and Fake Cloud would not have the same bonding experience.

True, Aerith knew the real Cloud hiding underneath, but Cloud was still in that shell. Aerith may have reached Cloud but did Cloud reached out towards Aerith?

So Cloud and Aerith's bond was real, his bond with everyone else is real, but my point is still the same: what's the evidence that he loved her romantically?

 

[Strangelove]

Long story short, Fake Cloud's experiences affect Real Cloud, but are not an automatic indicator of how real Cloud would act, react, or feel in the same experiences.

This is kind of why I don't care about 'well if Aerith were still alive, she'd...' arguments. How Cloud behaved towards Aerith might not have been the way he would have with his original personality or would in the present, but it doesn't really matter. He reacted the way he did, no matter what the basis for it was. That's the fact of the matter, and all that's really important.

If I find spare money for it, then I'll donate. Thank you for the translation though! It's helpful and more information is always helpful in putting together a complete, accurate picture.

That was mostly in jest, as this stuff will eventually be released publicly once completed. It just gets posted in the donator's forum since one of the perks of donating originally discussed was having a 'early peek' at upcoming site projects.

 

[Roger]

Re: fake/real Cloud: Even if he wasn't completely himself at the start, I don't think what he felt during that time would suddenly disappear after he regained himself. I don't think everything that happened then necessarily reflects the truth (I don't think Cloud not remembering his promise at first, which he remembered in detail seconds later, means that it meant nothing to him like some say), but I think things like the feelings and friendships (like with Barret) he formed during that period still meant something. Whatever personality he has at the start and even if he might have reacted differently with his original personality, what he experienced then is going to stay with him. Otherwise, why would he feel any remorse about causing Aerith's death (even if he didn't really) if everything that happened to him while in his false persona wouldn't apply to him post-Lifestream?

did someone say that already whatever im a lion

Well, yeah. As Advent Children says, Cloud is still a SOLDIER First Class... In his head. He has those memories along with what happened in the game before he fell into the Lifestream, cause fake!Cloud, fake though he maybe, is now part of him.

But his personality, likes and dislikes that he had before the Jenova mind control thing, are back as well. Up to and including his feelings for Tifa, the entire reason he ever went and screwed himself up in the first place.

 

[penandpaper]

That was mostly in jest, as this stuff will eventually be released publicly once completed. It just gets posted in the donator's forum since one of the perks of donating originally discussed was having a 'early peek' at upcoming site projects.

I figured you were likely teasing. Thank you for clarifying. I would donate if I could.

Back on topic though...

I do think the big issue here though is what Danseru-kun points out. The question isn't "can Real!Cloud feel" because the evidence appears to indicate that he certainly can. He can feel and he can form strong bonds, indicated by the fact that he is in fact aware of what's happening and that he does in fact continue to have strong bonds with the other characters even after the Lifestream sequence. The issue is was the bond that the real him formed with Aerith ever romantic? Given that it's hard to know how much influence Real!Cloud has on Composite!Cloud when we don't directly see the interaction, it's also hard to read what type of bond Real!Cloud might have been forming with her. I don't think there is any doubt that he has a bond with her and a strong one at that just as he does with his other companions, but the nature of it is trickier to pinpoint.

On top of that, how much of Composite!Cloud's feelings transferred when both personalities were combined and were those feelings romantic in nature?

Aerith is precious to him, but her being precious to him doesn't mean that his feelings for her are romantic.

And I hope this all makes sense. I'm sorry if it doesn't.

 

[Zee]

it p. obviously set up as romantic with the date and the flirting and whatnot

like no they don't actually send each other notes with "do u like me check y/n" but you don't have the read into the story that hard to understand what a crushing phase looks like

 

[penandpaper]

it p. obviously set up as romantic with the date and the flirting and whatnot

like no they don't actually send each other notes with "do u like me check y/n" but you don't have the read into the story that hard to understand what a crushing phase looks like

And then has to be pushed out the door to go on said date, which is true for the other potential date partners as well (Except maybe Barret, who I vaguely recall he goes willingly with, but I could be wrong. Yes, Barrett's date isn't particularly romantic, but if the date is evidence then all forms of it should be considered, at least in my opinion). If he's really that interested in her though, he has a strange way of showing it. At least in my opinion, he comes off as rather disinterested in romance all around until he regains himself in the Lifestream sequence.

And even if we assume that Composite!Cloud's feelings are romantic in nature, which is something I'm willing to run with for the sake of discussion, how do we know to what degree those feelings transfer? His feelings from his composite persona have to be combined with Real!Cloud's feelings from both the period prior to the fracturing of his psyche and after he's restored to normal. It seems unfair to assume that just because Composite!Cloud was interested that Real!Cloud must also be, at least to me.

 

[Zee]

And then has to be pushed out the door to go on said date

why is a humorous motion in ff7 now hard evidence that cloud didn't want to go on the date

like tiff said that is as dumb as saying tifa forced him into the promise because she had to repeat herself

At least in my opinion, he comes off as rather disinterested in romance all around until he regains himself in the Lifestream sequence.

cloud is awkward and bad at expressing himself; again, this doesn't make him disinterested. he was perfectly fine with the date and several of the options on disk one are choosing one girl over the other

so yeah....there's some romantic interest one way or the other

i mean do you think his distance in case of tifa makes him disinterested too or?

It seems unfair to assume that just because Composite!Cloud was interested that Real!Cloud must also be, at least to me.

we do know is that he does have some lingering intense feelings based off of failing her based on the deal he made with her in the beginning

which started as a flirty joke and became really serious the more he cared about her

i don't see how it's unfair to assume real!cloud still has lingering emotions, but by AC that is such a moot point what does it matter if he's interested she's dead

 

[Celes Chere]

To be fair, Cloud is pushed out the door on EVERY date, not just Aerith's. And afterwards, he goes along with it. It's not like he's pushed to do everything.

 

[Octo]

I don't think his behavior on the date with anyone denotes any kind of romantic feelings he's just very 'mehh' about it. If anyone went on a date and the guy behaved like that you'd think he was a dick

 

[Celes Chere]

Idk I thought he showed a genuine interest in Tifa's feelings on their date. But that could just be me.