The battle against sexist book covers in sci-fi and fantasy

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Interesting.

read more at
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21033708

 

[Octo]

I like the idea of the Hawkeye test.

Its ridiculous really, I mean if a publisher wants to alienate 50% of their potential audience then thats just bad business sense.

Having said that I'm a bit of a hypocrite as I still enjoy Masamune Shirows art, though these days it seems he's given up any pretense of being anything but porn now

 

[Cthulhu]

So liek, explain to me the difference between sexist and 'just' sexy? appealing to men? Strong and/or erotic women in art? And what's the main difference between a woman in skintight outfits wielding a sword versus a shirtless muscular barbarian doing the same?

Just stirring here,

 

[Octo]

No that is true, I think traditonally comic books reinforce gender stereotypes for both sexes. I mean this thing where a female superhero is strong and stuff but.....well theres no female equivalent of Thing or Juggernaut is there? (for all I know there may be, I'm out of the loop so correct me if I'm wrong)

But then theres not just one definition of sexy is there, in comics it seems that having women in a pose where you can miraculously see their arse and boobs at once is 'sexy' Theres not much subtlety.

I dunno. Theres nothing inherently wrong with enjoying the human form. Covers like that do give off a certain vibe though. Of spotty priapic teenage boys. I don't know if theres many women who find a guy wearing skintight costumes sexy. eg: Batman looks like a fucking maniac weirdo to me, but stick him in a suit as Bruce Wayne and he might get a second look

 

[X-SOLDIER]

This just makes me think of The Hawkeye Initiative. The same questions have popped up there as well, and there've been some pretty good answers. CBA to find the posts from my phone, but feel free to browse for them: http://thehawkeyeinitiative.com/


X

 

[Splintered]

This just makes me think of The Hawkeye Initiative. The same questions have popped up there as well, and there've been some pretty good answers. CBA to find the posts from my phone, but feel free to browse for them: http://thehawkeyeinitiative.com/


X

I've seen the Hawkeye images but I had no idea what it was called. It's fucking hilarious, regardless on what you think about the argument.

POSTING FAVORITES

Spoiler

 

[Glaurung]

So liek, explain to me the difference between sexist and 'just' sexy? appealing to men? Strong and/or erotic women in art? And what's the main difference between a woman in skintight outfits wielding a sword versus a shirtless muscular barbarian doing the same?

Just stirring here,

The problem is not whether if they are dressed like this or that while wielding a gun/claymore as their barbarian counterparts. The problem is that many female characters are draw as if they were starring in a porn magazine, while many of them are very poorly drawn/have alien proportions.

I mean, I'm more than ok with girls in skintight and/or revealing outfits and what have you but, the posesare beyond ridiculous. The Hawkeye iniciative is a good way to show this by translating them to a male figure.

Me? Personaly I always lmao whenever I see how little some comic artists know about simple anatomy. It's like they were still on their early teens, when they only thing they can think about it's b00bs and butts.

tl;dr: lol.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Here's the post about, "where's the line?" that I mentioned earlier. http://thehawkeyeinitiative.com/post/37395510871/ramonvillalobos-so-heres-the-thing-im-more There are a few images there that're just bad anatomy, or others that over exaggerate the parody image, but there are a lot of good ones.

Also- I found this image of the Boss model Sy Alassane which made me feel that I ought to point out that it's not just girls that use the "t&a pose" and also that it's not impossible.

(Apologies about the semi-thread hijack, LA)


X

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

That's what bothers me about these arguments and endeavours: that line we're constantly fed about "the impossible T&A pose with an s-shaped back." It's not impossible -- for those who actually have the body type to do it. And simply taking a walk through the mall will show you tons of people that do.

It ends up hurting the credibility of the speaker and derailing the message into looking like bitterness when there are legitimately good intentions and worthwhile lessons behind the message. Take the time to say what you actually mean, anti-sexism crusaders.

 

[Octo]

Its not so much tits and arse as BOTH tits and BOTH buttocks facing you at once

But yeah I mean, I think there are bigger fish to fry here. I feel a lot of this stuff obscures the real inequalities that need sorting. And in the year 2013 where I can find gut churning degrading pornography at the click of a button*, a few superheroes prancing about 'sexily' all starts to look rather quaint

*I don't, I just know I can**

**but I don't, In case you were wondering***

***honestly. Why are you making a big deal of this?!****

****

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I can find gut churning degrading pornography at the click of a button

Link?

 

[looneymoon]

So liek, explain to me the difference between sexist and 'just' sexy? appealing to men? Strong and/or erotic women in art? And what's the main difference between a woman in skintight outfits wielding a sword versus a shirtless muscular barbarian doing the same?

Just stirring here,

Male power fantasy.
Using the female body as a something to be consumed as part of that power fantasy.

There's nothing wrong with making something sexy, but there's a clear intent here. It's not that these comics are meant to empower women through sexyness, it's that it's made for young males (by other males) to pop boners and thus be more inclined to buy these comics. The mystification of sex in society contributes to this tbh, and it ends up being insulting to males* as well, albeit on a different level in comparison to females*.

It's alienating to a huge amount of the female demographic because a) that's not how many females look like, b) that's not how many females see themselves as looking like, c) seeing "their" bodies depicted in such a way does not make them feel good/empowered (especially when done so through a male lens).

Not saying there aren't females who derive positive feelings from these images, but on the whole there's not a whole lot of variation that enable empowerment for sooo many females. That also isn't to say the male images don't have their own set of negative gender implications. But there is definitely a lot more variation of male body types in even mainstream comics. Heck, take Watchmen for example, where the intent is to have super heroes portrayed as more realistic than the traditional super-hero comic book. You have a character like Nite Owl II, who is depicted as an older fat guy to contrast the typical super-hero physique. When it comes to the female characters however (both the Silk Spectres, The Silhouette), they don't really deviate a whole lot.

It's an important issue because mainstream media images are really powerful. Diseases such as anorexia and bulimia are directly proliferated by them. There have been a lot of studies which show how these diseases barely exist in societies which are not so streamlined-media saturated as ours. That is also the most visible example, and does not even comment on more general feelings of negative self-body image (which tends to more demanding of female-bodied people, but I'm sure is something virtually everyone feels at some point in their lives).

As someone who does enjoy the consumption of media, it seems irresponsible on my part to take part in it without pointing out all the bullshit it perpetuates. If we want to continue living in a society where the media is a good thing, we have to look at ways it can be changed so that everyone has an accessible outlet in whatever genre they prefer. Because as it is, it's really fucking shitty

/rant

*Please note I'm trying to speak on male and female as conceptualised systems, and am not attempting to speak on behalf on all males and all females in the world.

 

[Interslicery]

Male power fantasy.
Using the female body as a something to be consumed as part of that power fantasy.

Tho I agree with your post. It's more the intent behind it than whats actually being shown at face value.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yeah, I also got the impression that looney agrees it's fine to have some stuff within a genre that "consumes the female body as part of that power fantasy," but that there's a problem when that becomes one of the genre's defining characteristics. One could certainly make the case that it is true of the Fantasy genre, particularly in its Sword & Sorcerery sub-genre.

 

[looneymoon]

Yeah, I also got the impression that looney agrees it's fine to have some stuff within a genre that "consumes the female body as part of that power fantasy," but that there's a problem when that becomes one of the genre's defining characteristics. One could certainly make the case that it is true of the Fantasy genre, particularly in its Sword & Sorcerery sub-genre.

Pretty much. Not to mention the fact that the prevalence of this power fantasy definitely speaks to a larger system of patriarchy. Having that so staunchly ingrained in a subculture unfortunately fosters an environment of some really hostile behaviour. It's really upsetting though because some of the most malicious sexism I have personally experienced comes from nerd culture, usually comic or video-game based.

Spoiler: Typical scenario which I find myself in fairly regularly

Stage 1
Guy: Why don't girls [read the comics/play the games] I like! I wish I could find a girl who likes [thing I like]!
Girl (me): Well I like [thing].
Guy: Pfft what a poser [insert question about random detailed piece of information here]
Girl: [responds "correctly"]
>>Repeat until some tentative respect is earned, though often the respect is never earned.

Stage 2
Guy: [comment about how you're a cool girl or not like other girls or, on a lucky day, an inquiry as to why so few women like thing]
>>9 times out of 10 at this point I'll just take this as a well-intentioned compliment and simply move on.

Stage 3
>>If not totally bogged down by the rest of the convo, and is willing to comment on the gender thing, I would respond with something like
Girl: Actually there are plenty of girls who like comics and games! It can be hard though because there's a lot to get over when getting into them as they aren't exactly made with consideration of a female demographic, or with any direct female involvement. Even in [thing of mutual liking] it can really feel like the artists and writers have never even seen a real woman before, or they resort to [some sort of sexism, stereotyping, subpar representation of femininity etc]
>>If the conversation even gets to this stage, on the extremely lucky instance it ends with Guy taking in the information and moving on, but since this is a typical scenario it tends to end with...
Guy: wow stop ruining my fun/you're overreacting/you're reading too much into it/oh, I guess you didn't get it/your feelings are wrong/wow I knew you weren't a real nerd.

I mean, I find it interesting because this experience of quizzing (which I have experienced, which many females have experienced when it comes to geeky things) is almost identical to the experience pretty much every female I know has had in male-dominated career fields. It's really funny because I've never personally heard of this kind of grilling of competence level happening in female-dominated occupations. Not trying to deny that there are a slough of other negative assumptions/behaviours done against males in "female" jobs, just that the whole "prove you actually know what you're doing" mindset doesn't appear to be nearly as strong in the reversal, from what I've noticed. I bring this up because it boggles my mind how there are so many of these entitled asshole guys who think this is ok or don't realise what they're doing. This is also a bit of a rant because I got a tiring quizzing session yesterday when I was talking to a seemingly reasonable nice guy and it really irritated me.

afterthought that more directly relates to the actual topic:
It's also worth noting that a lot of the big-name comics of the super-hero variety have a long history of conservatism (what we now consider that to be , though even then would have been to some degree). That maybe something that still may be carried-on in contemporary incarnations. I can't say for sure since I'm not huge reader of these kinds of books. Plus, if that were true, there are so many different incarnations of these characters that, if it were true, it's probably not even uniformly so across all of them.

 

[Cthulhu]

...I really have nothing to add, excellent posts, .

 

[Dawnbreaker]

It's tough for me to comment since on one hand I absolutely eat up all the sexiness of this nerd culture like candy, but on the other hand it leaves a bad taste in my mouth by what it does. I think the part that bothers me about some of the deciptions is that they are unrealistic. They are also deceptive. The poses might be humanly possible, but they extremely unlikely. They also give a false sense of what the female form traditionally looks like. They lead people into thinking they're something they simply aren't.

I think a really good point made in the article was about how the women are given guns that look badass but then are strapped up in ridiculous get-up. Why exactly are the chainmail shaped as a a bikini? Why would you wear a dress in a den full of zombies? This doesn't empower women. It actually mocks them, because it makes it appear that they are just play-acting at the fighting...that they can wave a few guns around while the men do all the work.

In the end, I'm comfortable with sexifying women (and men) within logic and reason. As long as the image is realistic and at least semi-taseful, then I see nothing wrong with it. It's once it crosses the boundary of what can distort the impression of what a woman is, and isn't, that frankly pisses me off.

 

[Theozilla]

This comic (writer/artist) usually provides some pretty good insight (that is also comedic) on this issue.

http://www.shortpacked.com/2011/comic/book-13/05-the-death-of-snkrs/falseequivalence/

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I don't know if theres many women who find a guy wearing skintight costumes sexy.

The Avengers, particularly Thor and Captain America had almost as many female fans as male ones. It's not hard to see why females have an attraction to a male wearing clothes/an outfit that displays a well developed/gifted body, even I, an straight male couldn't deny the hunkness of Chris Evans (Captain America) in both movies.

Tony Stark and Bruce Wayne inspire attraction because of 'wow those are well dressed, handsome men', but Batman/Captain America/Thor/etc inspire attraction because 'holy shit look at those bodies'.

 

[jazzflower92]

The Avengers, particularly Thor and Captain America had almost as many female fans as male ones. It's not hard to see why females have an attraction to a male wearing clothes/an outfit that displays a well developed/gifted body, even I, an straight male couldn't deny the hunkness of Chris Evans (Captain America) in both movies.

Tony Stark and Bruce Wayne inspire attraction because of 'wow those are well dressed, handsome men', but Batman/Captain America/Thor/etc inspire attraction because 'holy shit look at those bodies'.

Don't forget the sexy villains.I mean no can resist the lure of evil.There reason why so many female fans are taken towards hot villains is because they find the combination of power and evil delicious.I think sexy villains are sorta way a forbidden fruit power fantasy for some women.

 

[looneymoon]

The Avengers, particularly Thor and Captain America had almost as many female fans as male ones. It's not hard to see why females have an attraction to a male wearing clothes/an outfit that displays a well developed/gifted body, even I, an straight male couldn't deny the hunkness of Chris Evans (Captain America) in both movies.

Tony Stark and Bruce Wayne inspire attraction because of 'wow those are well dressed, handsome men', but Batman/Captain America/Thor/etc inspire attraction because 'holy shit look at those bodies'.

You're talking about a movie though. Much more consideration of a female market. Not to mention The Avengers was made by someone who is really well-read on feminist issues and is a self-proclaimed feminist, though admittedly isn't devoid of problematic things himself...

 

[Interslicery]

Correct me if Im wrong, but aren't the 2 comic book characters that fill up the majority of female affections Nightcrawler and Gambit? And thats primarily from their personalities.

 

[Deleted member 546]

Personally I've always had a soft spot for Wolverine. Modified and kick-arse, but also painfully human (drinks, smokes, is a wanker, etc). The brawn and spandex are secondary to the brilliantly flawed character.

 

[Max Payne]

I don't care about the rest of this discussion much, but I just wanted to say this:

Male heroes in super hero comics do not vary much at all when it comes to body type. They almost always fall into the same archetypes of:

Very lean but ripped

Tall and super muscled

Average sized male with medium muscle tone

Then there's the dozens upon dozens of alien variations on males and females in Green Lantern, that ultimately defy all of these archetypes.

Oh and Wolverine, Granny Goodness, and Big Bertha. Wolverine and these gals are a big exception to the archetypes and are typically their own ballgame in appearance and set themselves out big time. I used to be able to say the same about Amanda Waller before DC rebooted her and turned her into fucking Halle Berry, which pissed off everyone. The Wall was famous for being a large black woman who was tough as nails and took shit from no one in the DCU, not even Batman. The expert spy smasher with balls of steel got reduced to another pretty gal.

Even plain old civilians get subjected to these body types. Watchmen is FAR from being mainstream comics( it was intentionally designed to be such) and it is the extreme exception to this. Most of the cast are washed up heroes with no future or anything. You cite Silk Spectre the II, but her physique was just that of an average thin woman wearing a revealing costume. Moore and Dave Gibbons made a point of making the cast look like average people, they're not superhuman.

The original Silk Spectre got fat and out of shape just like Nite Owl did. Even when she was in her prime, she was much stockier than your average superhero woman. She didn't have a tiny waist and super shapely legs. There was noticeable differentiation between herself and her successor when it came to physique as well. Watchmen did not discriminate. These were ordinary people who put themselves in extraordinary situations that whose humanity eventually caught up with them. The only exception being Ozmandias.

Correct me if Im wrong, but aren't the 2 comic book characters that fill up the majority of female affections Nightcrawler and Gambit? And thats primarily from their personalities.

You're not wrong, but Dick Grayson, Clark Kent, Kyle Rayner, Tony Stark, Steve Rogers, Namor, Thor and Tim Drake all have scores of female fans all around the world. Some of them are pretty scary. I'm talking comics alone there.

I've recently discovered a lot of women who actually think batman is sexy, and fantasize about his various comic book incarnations to disturbing degree. Even more disturbing are the Batman/Superman and Iron Man/Cap shippers. The Avengers film only made that shit worse too.

As far as the whole "female superheroes prancing about sexily" thing goes, I don't really get that as much these days. In recent years comics books have been much better about this. You still have characters who flaunt their sexuality and beauty as a part of their whole routine like Catwoman(cause that's just a part of who she is), but on the whole with the advent of more women actually writing comics and doing art for them it's nowhere near as bad as people make it to be.

We have more heroes whose costume designs fit their roles and their lifestyles instead of just being pointless eye candy. I do however still get annoyed when certain artists draw Wonder Woman like a fucking runway model and not the warrior she is, like Cliff Chiang does. They don't even incorporate the fact that her features are more traditionally greek and not caucasian.

Luckily we see MUCH more variation in comics when it comes to men and women and their body types these days and they're much more visually appealing as a result.

The thing about comics however is, it is fantasy to the highest degree. It's not meant to be a representation of real life or people, and most comic fans realise that. Real men and women are just not like comic book characters and you can tell at a simple glance between the two.

Some people seem to assume that by partaking in this particular media we are substituting reality for that which we see in that media therein and it's just not true. People don't read comics and then go out and expect the people meet in the real world to be like the ones in the comics.

I see this attitude on the internet from people who seem to think that, comic book fans are all neckbeard dudes who are totally out of touch but that's just not true, and anyone who knows anything about comics or their fans would know just how untrue it is. There's millions of fans all around the world buying and making these books, and a huge sum of those fans are women. You need only look around a big comics forum, your average comic convention(especially the cosplayers holy shit, and they actually KNOW their comics imagine that) or hell look on tumblr to see this.

It's like people don't even realise that a good portion of comic book creators have always been women going back to the fucking 80s. They've been there writing and drawing books for decades, and we're only getting more and more of them to this day. That's why there's a lot more of those man candy moments in comics or really sexualised dudes like Namor and Savant showing up in more revealing clothing and suggestive situations. It's not just happening to the women in comics, it is happening to the men too, and that's not happening for the guys(although I'm sure it's working for some of them). Shit there's entire blogs dedicated to Dick Grayson and Spidey's butts, with tons of pics getting posted and updates from the newest issues.

I'm really tired of the ignorant attitudes I see all around regarding comics. The much vaunted "t & a" pose isn't even something that is as big an epidemic as people make it out to be. Then there's the shaming that goes on when female fans like the sexy costumes and make efforts to wear them at conventions and shit. I remember when DC unveiled the changes to Power Girl after Amanda Conner worked on her for so long and made her something special, fans flipped out, both male and female. Yet there were still people there trying to make them feel bad about liking her to begin with.

People look at comics through a very narrow lens and it's almost always one sided. Yeah there's a lean in comics towards the things that appeal to a lot of games a small portion of women still, I don't know if I would attribute it to sexism or whatever, I'm sure there's plenty more armchair experts waiting to take a whack at the cause. It's just a fact that there's a big demographic of comics for that stuff still, but there's also a sizable demographic for women there as well that is still growing. Often times it seems like people just want to ignore that this demographic exists at all just so that label comics as a whole as juvenile male bullshit.

I mean this thing where a female superhero is strong and stuff but.....well theres no female equivalent of Thing or Juggernaut is there? (for all I know there may be, I'm out of the loop so correct me if I'm wrong)

If we're talking about sheer power then there's She-Hulk, Red She Hulk WW(she's whooped Superman and Green lantern ffs), Big Barda, Valkyrie and my personal favorite the Pheonix, which is always a female and is arguably the most powerful cosmic force in the marvel universe. There's insanely powerful women all over the DCU and MU.

As far as powerful bodies goes it's not uncommon for women to be depicted with large rippling muscles either.

I dont know where I was going with this or what purpose this post even serves/if it even makes sense but I felt the need to say something. I'm not looking to debate anything or whatever, just wanted to vent, as I'm tired of seeing people lambasting comics without really knowing wtf they're talking about.

I'll go back to not posting on or really reading TLS now.

Goodbye.

 

[Octo]

Thanks for that Dac, I know youre not around anymore, but for the benefit of others: what I was getting at with the thing and juggernaut wasn't so much physical strength but appearance. The examples of female characters that you listed, I looked them up. While they are more muscular than the average female character theyre still very feminine. None of them seem to have lost their boobs like many female athletes and bodybuilders do. I feel that the design is still meant to appeal to men.

But there may be other lesser known examples I dunno.