An LTD Video (Vote)

[Channy]

The LTD video would be about as real of a debate and squabble as wrestling is real fighting.

 

[Cat on Mars]

The thing is, some parts of the debate are interesting (when regarding character study, meta commentary, that stuff). But let's not fool ourselves.

LTD=Shipping.

And ships aren't up for debate.

 

[Starling]

The canonicity of them, the dynamics of the relationship between the individuals involved and why people like the pairings are all worth discussing.

 

[Cat on Mars]

The canonicity of them,

The reason the LTD has been dragged on for almost 20 years is because shippers refuse to accept canon when it doesn't favor their ship. That's what I mean when I say "Ships aren't up for debate".

 

[Channy]

The thing with the canon on if is that it's pretty equal on both side with their own respective pieces. No one has yet blatantly said "Cloud loves X. The end."

 

[Jason Tandro]

The weird thing is they subvert a similar thing in FFX. With the affinity meter that runs in the background you can have any of the three girls "fall" for Tidus but to my knowledge the only visual clue is the girl who throws the Blitzball in Tidus's ultimate limit break. They then go to get Lulu hitched to Wakka and give Rikku an Al Bhed boyfriend (who is also probably my favorite character from X-2).

 

[Starling]

A golden rule of story writing is whenever possible, show rather than tell. There are plenty of moments showing the relationships characters have with each-other, platonic or not. It's not just about words.

 

[Odysseus]

A golden rule of story writing is whenever possible, show rather than tell. There are plenty of moments showing the relationships characters have with each-other, platonic or not. It's not just about words.

You might say that "Words aren't the only thing that tell people what you're thinking…"

Sorry I had to

 

[Tetsujin]

The weird thing is they subvert a similar thing in FFX. With the affinity meter that runs in the background you can have any of the three girls "fall" for Tidus but to my knowledge the only visual clue is the girl who throws the Blitzball in Tidus's ultimate limit break.

It also changes who goes with Tidus on the snowmobile scene before Macalania temple.

 

[Jason Tandro]

The weird thing is they subvert a similar thing in FFX. With the affinity meter that runs in the background you can have any of the three girls "fall" for Tidus but to my knowledge the only visual clue is the girl who throws the Blitzball in Tidus's ultimate limit break.

It also changes who goes with Tidus on the snowmobile scene before Macalania temple.

AND I AM ONLY FIGURING THIS OUT NOW???

I've only ever seen the Lulu scene.

 

[GiddyUnicorn]

The thing about FF7's affection points though is that it tends to affect two significant scenes for both shipping. This is why you either ignore that fact or include it depending on how you wanna argue your point in the debate. This is one of many reasons why the LTD is such a mess for the past decade or so:

I want to see it....:/

The proposal is a video in the style of "Deadlock" where two people (one Cloti and one Clerith) present both sides of the argument and the video does not declare a winner but leaves the discussion open to the comments.

I'll probably get in trouble for saying this, but instead of making this into another "debate themed video", why not try to piece everything together from both sides into one complete narrative? You never know, some of you might be surprised that clerith and cloti do fit together into one whole story. Both sides just tend to ignore each other's part in it.......for the past decade give or take.

Oh you mean to determine that maybe both loves are possible within the context of the story and possible, just possibly, the writers of the story knew there was a definite answer and that Cloud's emotions changed as the quest went on?

You mean we should use common sense?

Edit: Well I tipped my hand there, didn't I? But I still think it's a bad idea at this point in time.

It maybe common sense,but I'm pretty sure theres quite a number of people here that would not include the affection points system for both the cleris and cloti shipping. Most will find reasons why it's not important or significant for the readers/viewers, and that's where it becomes problematic imo. There's too many analyst deciding what facts should be taken out or include when you're supposed to analyze the *whole* story/narrative. For me at least, if you want to know the truth, then you gotta know the whole story before you make a decision....

From my experience, it happens to everyone including myself. People tend include facts/canon that only supports their own conclusion on it but we all played the same game and watched the same movie imo and you can tell that the plot analysis is either incomplete/scripted/ and edited to prove whatever point they have on it....

 

[Starling]

When I look at something in a game, I start by prioritizing cutscenes since they have the most story relevance without having to figure out the divide between gameplay and story. When you get gameplay elements, it gets trickier sine you have to account for the multiple possible interpretations depending on where you consider the divide to be. You weigh the pros and cons of the multiple interpretations and either leave it open or order them by likeliness. Sometimes you end up lacking information necessary to make a definite conclusion on something. Different things are likely to be approached in different ways but that's pretty much a general summary meant to apply to game content in general, not just shipping.

I consider arguing against your own points can be a good way to examining how firm your points are and how objective/subjective your process is.

 

[GiddyUnicorn]

Different things are likely to be approached in different ways but that's pretty much a general summary meant to apply to game content in general, not just shipping.

General game/plot content is fine for FF7 and I don't really think there's anything in there to be discussed/debated imo, it does tend to get complicated for the Love Triangle however. This isn't just about the whole ap system being in place to affect Cloud's/player's affection, but just the general ways on how both sides prefer to show just a "part" of the story to prove their point. From my experience during the time when I use to be active in any discussions that involves FF7, there's no problem summarizing all the events that happened in that game before making a conclusion and ultimately debating it whether yours is more plausible than the other.

For the Love Triangle, it tends to feel like both sides are arguing on different planes of existence, using different sources/translations/books/games etc etc etc.....This is why it tends to go on circles, having no end with both sides being frustrated with one another.

 

[Cthulhu]

Re: debate vs that other thing, the Most Controversial and by extension Most Popular frontpage article was actually that other thing - an objectively-worded analysis of Stuff. I think that if you did a video like that it'd be well-watched and not as controversial as... idk, stuff and things.

 

[Starling]

My general summary of how to analyse game content really does amount to objectivity regarding all relevant information. I remember reading the LTD analysis and finding it quite well done. Like I said, times change and along with it people's attitudes about things. If you can't accept an objective look at all available information, then you're probably denying that you're letting a bias color your opinions.

 

[Pixel]

Thats exactly the kind of thing that would work, and would get good views.

 

[GiddyUnicorn]

If you can't accept an objective look at all available information, then you're probably denying that you're letting a bias color your opinions.

That depends whether the analyst includes *all* available information of course... Which eventually leads me to this conclusion from my own experience. There's really no single article/analysis out there that provides the whole story along with all the available information.

To be fair though, it takes a lot of work given the amount of information both sides have poured into the Love Triangle for the past decade or so, but I don't think it's impossible.

 

[Starling]

If the analysis is incomplete and you can bring up an example of how it's incomplete, then you actually have something more than opinion to go on when contesting the analysis. Likewise, if you claim it's inaccurate and actually have something to back up that claim, then you're not just denying something because it doesn't mesh with your opinion. Of course, that's assuming your examples aren't flawed and biased.

Since people can only do so much given their available time and resources, missing a small detail, so long as it doesn't significantly impact the overall analysis, should be forgivable. To deny an entire analysis because of something like that would be excessive.

 

[GiddyUnicorn]

Like I said, it's a lot of work and it's forgivable if you consider the time and resources a person can commit to, but there's really far too many articles/analysis out there that focuses on one single 2mins scene that seem to generate 3-5 paragraphs that makes people believe that their pairing is canon. Hell, Im pretty sure there was quite a few essays on both sides that focuses on only one word for quite number of years....Which imo is also somewhat excessive. It's something I've done myself in the past as well.

 

[Starling]

Which is why you look at things objectively. Excessively one-sided interpretations that take things for granted annoy me. It's like when two characters established as friends hug and suddenly everyone's raving about how they're totally in love and I can't find anyone talking about them as friends rather than lovers anywhere. If people are going to do that, I'd rather they explicitly state it's not proven in canon and shouldn't be viewed as such.

 

[Fangu]

Regardless, there is source material for this that has not yet had an official translation. Unofficial translations are more likely (but not exclusive) to be disputed and argued against in 'debates' like this.

If the source material was all official, I'd probably feel easier about a video like this. But you can't avoid the Japanese source material for this. And to utilize that source material, you need translators. I assume you guys would like to use the existing translations - which again puts our translators' heads on the chopping block.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yes, and for that reason, I ask that no one use any of my translations if a project like this does move forward before the remake is released. I obviously can't stop anyone from doing so, but it would be douchey of them if they went ahead anyway. Also, I won't support it and will make every effort to distance myself from it.

If you can't accept an objective look at all available information, then you're probably denying that you're letting a bias color your opinions.

That depends whether the analyst includes *all* available information of course... Which eventually leads me to this conclusion from my own experience. There's really no single article/analysis out there that provides the whole story along with all the available information.

To be fair though, it takes a lot of work given the amount of information both sides have poured into the Love Triangle for the past decade or so, but I don't think it's impossible.

I would claim my last analysis must at least be somewhere in the neighborhood of an upper 90-something% complete. Granted, I'm pulling that number out of my ass, but it's gotta be.

It is missing a few things that may have first appeared after the publication date of the article. The "Nice shirt, Tifa"/"Eyes up here, Cloud" thing from A Realm Reborn comes to mind, for instance. I didn't go back and edit that in since that came after Halloween 2013.

I also didn't have the in-game dialogue from Itadaki Street Special available at that time, so it's missing at least that much information that had existed prior to the article's publication (I'm not sure that I will ever bother; maybe?).

There's some debate points that I left out because they just extend too far into unverifiable analysis (e.g. the old Red String of Fate and lens flare arguments), but I tried to include everything that had at least been an interpretation of an on screen/on page exchange of dialogue, physical interaction, description of feelings, or a translation of a passage from secondary source materials (e.g. Ultimanias, interviews).

I'll concede that there could be more things from before Halloween of that year that were missed, though. I think the Ultimanias were all already thoroughly scoured over the years by fans pushing Cloti and Clerith alike, but how easy would it be to be unaware of some additional forgotten interview comment, piece of licensed merchandise (like another card) or promotional artifact?

You are correct that there is no single 100% complete analysis, but I don't think my final article could be said to be seriously lacking in anything we do know about either.

In either case, at this time, I'm not sure I see much point in anyone putting more time into essays and further analysis since the remake could come along and steamroll over much of what we've all held for granted over the years. We could be looking at things that won't even count pretty soon, so I think it's best that initiative (if anyone still has any for this stuff at this point) be held in reserve or dispensed on other endeavors in the meantime.

 

[Starling]

I often wish I could read Japanese to help with that. I've been told a couple times I'd make a good translator but I'm only fluent in 2 languages. And I don't think I have the time and patience to learn enough others to consider that worthwhile, especially since I'd have to know all the grammatical rules of each on top of being able to read, speak and write them.

I forgot that some stuff outside the compilation could be applicable to the LTD. It's interesting how in tactics they only bring in Cloud and Aerith but in KH, only Tifa really interacts with Cloud.

 

[Channy]

Actually, in KH Cloud is looking for Aerith and finds her in the ending credits. In KH 2, all three are present and he interacts with both.

Going outside the comp, into merchandise, Easter eggs in other games and what have you, I could pull a significant amount of evidence to support a Clerith discussion. But translations for my Ultimanias would be needed and I think I may have a place I can go for that.

I think that if anything does come of this, Hito and Tres need to be respected in their wishes to have their translations excluded and we'd have to find new people to assist us. Not jumping ahead or anything but if it did go forward and that was ignored, it would be significant strain on the forum then having that tensions and stress on them.

 

[Jason Tandro]

Anybody find it ironic that the topic about whether or not we should host a debate has lead to a debate?