Similarities Between Genesis and Kuja

[Munatik]

I can't have something, so I think that no one should be able to have it. Regardless of how you see my upbringing, how am I not acting spoiled?

Do you not think many real life people think "why should I die when murderers, rapists and other scum live?"? Are they all immature too just because they don't want to die while thousands of horrible, worthless people live on?

That isn't the idea. The idea is that there are people who, when they suffer, want to bring everybody else down to their level. Most people are above that, but usually it's spoiled children or people who think this is the solution to the problem that life just isn't fair.

Of course it does. He can't die if he never lived.

Did not compute with me in the game, and it still doesn't. That also doesn't resolve Kuja's rationale in response to death.

 

[Nikkolas]

I can't have something, so I think that no one should be able to have it. Regardless of how you see my upbringing, how am I not acting spoiled?

Because that's not being spoiled. That's being selfish. Anyone can be selfish regardless of how they were raised. So if you were to say Kuja was being selfish, then we wouldn't have a debate because I think we all agree with that.

That isn't the idea. The idea is that there are people who, when they suffer, want to bring everybody else down to their level. Most people are above that, but usually it's spoiled children or people who think this is the solution to the problem that life just isn't fair.

A generalization. It's lkke when you're single and all around you are couples in love...you're going to be bitter and no one can fault you for that. When you're depressed, you don't want everyone around you grinning and singing about how great life is.
It's something anyone would feel regardless of how they were brought up.

Did not compute with me in the game, and it still doesn't. That also doesn't resolve Kuja's rationale in response to death.

There was no rationale. It was a desperate man's attempt to save himself.

 

[Munatik]

Because that's not being spoiled. That's being selfish. Anyone can be selfish regardless of how they were raised. So if you were to say Kuja was being selfish, then we wouldn't have a debate because I think we all agree with that.

Spoiled and selfishness are not mutually exclusive characteristics. Of course a spoiled child/person is selfish. What makes Kuja's selfishness different is that for most of his life, he never if ever heard the word "No." As it was stated earlier in the thread, Kuja was intended to be a superior genome, and there is no indication that Kuja ever had to endure living without. Ever. He got everything he wanted and needed up until the creation of Zidane. Excessive indulgence will harm anyone's character, which is what it means to spoil. Kuja could not and did not avoid the damage to his.

A generalization. It's lkke when you're single and all around you are couples in love...you're going to be bitter and no one can fault you for that. When you're depressed, you don't want everyone around you grinning and singing about how great life is.
It's something anyone would feel regardless of how they were brought up.

It's something like that, but again you're not quite getting the idea. If I'm single (well, I am actually atm ) and I'm surrounded by couples in love, then yes, being bitter or sullen about my lot is an understandable reaction. If my reaction, however, is also the desire to split all of those couples and make sure nobody around me may be in love, then there is something wrong with that. That points to a sense of entitlement that will not tolerate others having the same thing or better, because if everyone has such things and I don't, then I'm not special anymore. Which is what Kuja thought he was.

 

[Nikkolas]

Spoiled and selfishness are not mutually exclusive characteristics. Of course a spoiled child/person is selfish. What makes Kuja's selfishness different is that for most of his life, he never if ever heard the word "No." As it was stated earlier in the thread, Kuja was intended to be a superior genome, and there is no indication that Kuja ever had to endure living without.

Even if Kuja did get anything he wanted from Garland, all this would bring him would be his own death with the resurrection of Terra. Saying he was spoiled is like saying Hansel and Gretel were spoiled by the witch who wanted to eat them because she gave them whatever they wanted.

It's something like that, but again you're not quite getting the idea. If I'm single (well, I am actually atm ) and I'm surrounded by couples in love, then yes, being bitter or sullen about my lot is an understandable reaction. If my reaction, however, is also the desire to split all of those couples and make sure nobody around me may be in love, then there is something wrong with that. That points to a sense of entitlement that will not tolerate others having the same thing or better, because if everyone has such things and I don't, then I'm not special anymore. Which is what Kuja thought he was.

Again I don't deny Kuja was being selfish. I just think his feeling of self-importance was to mask his own vulnerability and not because he was spoiled.
Kuja was a very human and sympathetic character for me.

 

[Ⓐaron]

What are you on about? Kuja's death had nothing to do with what he wanted, that's the point. It's the first thing that happened to him in his life that he didn't want. So yeah, he's spoiled.

 

[Max Payne]

Kuja fucking flipped out because he found out he was a limited being, and decided to take it out on the world because things weren't his way.

Seems both childish and spoiled to me.

 

[ForceStealer]

And significantly moreso that Genesis to boot. Quality of characterization notwithstanding. Genesis did have a jealousy issue, but he actually had far more reason to do what he did than Kuja ever had.

 

[Max Payne]

Genesis never declared to assrape the planet because he was rotting.

At least I don't remember him doing so,

 

[Nikkolas]

What are you on about? Kuja's death had nothing to do with what he wanted, that's the point. It's the first thing that happened to him in his life that he didn't want. So yeah, he's spoiled.

Kuja: You two just don't get it!
I need an eidolon more powerful than Alexander! An eidolon with the power to bury Garland! His powers are so incredible; I cannot even come close. I must destroy him before Terra's plan is activated, or my soul will no longer be my own!

Do you mean learning of his mortality was his first thing he didn't want?
Technically his birth was the first thing he didn't want to happen since that automatically made him weaker than Garland. He hated that as he makes quite clear.
Second he was always a pawn of Garland doomed to death as my quote illustrates.
Third, he was replaced. His very meaning to exist was rendered null and void by Zidane's creation.
His plans for Alexander were also ruined.
And juust as he had everything he wanted, he had it stolen away.
I'd like to see your reacion to spending all your life working for something, then getting it, then losing it almost instantly.

He's had a lot of disappointments.

Kuja fucking flipped out because he found out he was a limited being, and decided to take it out on the world because things weren't his way.

Seems both childish and spoiled to me.

Do you also hate cancer victims who die young for resenting how the worthless people of this world grow old? Are the people who exercise daily and eat right spoiled and childish for hating the people who live into old age after a lifetime of drugs, alcohol and whatnot?
Kuja is much the same in his own mind. He is the single strongest being in existence...yet he will die. By what right should inferior, insignificant people live without him? It really isn't fair in his mind just like it isn't really fair in the minds of those who die early of disease or accident.

And significantly moreso that Genesis to boot. Quality of characterization notwithstanding. Genesis did have a jealousy issue, but he actually had far more reason to do what he did than Kuja ever had.

He only taunted Sephiroth with being a monster thereby leading to Sephiroth's insanity and the death of countless people.
Simple jealousy...yep.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Do you mean learning of his mortality was his first thing he didn't want?
Technically his birth was the first thing he didn't want to happen since that automatically made him weaker than Garland. He hated that as he makes quite clear.
Second he was always a pawn of Garland doomed to death as my quote illustrates.
Third, he was replaced. His very meaning to exist was rendered null and void by Zidane's creation.
His plans for Alexander were also ruined.
And juust as he had everything he wanted, he had it stolen away.
I'd like to see your reacion to spending all your life working for something, then getting it, then losing it almost instantly.

He's had a lot of disappointments.

All these disappointments happened right around the same time. For the early part of his life he was given everything he asked for and the main reason he came out as such a prat is because he never had to hear the word "no." So yeah, it's not like everything came out sunshine and roses for him in the end, but let's face it, Garland didn't even try to set him up for how to deal with disappointment. To me, that's the very definition of the word spoiled.

Do you also hate cancer victims who die young for resenting how the worthless people of this world grow old?

If they react to their cancer by trying to kill everyone on the planet, then yeah, they're cunts.

 

[Max Payne]

When did I say I hated anyone? I like Kuja.


The guy is spoiled, because he acts like it, his actions are motivated by self interest, and he's so suited to getting his way, he can't handle when he doesn't so he lashes out like a child.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Yeah I should add that I find Kuja to be perhaps the most sympathetic antagonist in the FF games I've played (They tried to make Seymour even more sympathetic but failed because he's just too damned creepy), and he's also my favourite behind Kefka. But that doesn't mean he's not childish and spoiled.

 

[Nikkolas]

Kuja: You'll all decorate my castle as a symbol of my eternal kingdom
Garland: Even as I die, you'll have died without ever leaving your mark on the world...

Reminds me of another great antagonist.
"All I want is to be remembered. By other people, by history.' -Solidus Snake

As I mentioned in my OP, Kuja and Genesis share common Japanese fiction themes. In this case, proving the worth of your existence by shaping some sort of legacy.

But he was denied this. He would be nothing more than Garland's tool even after all he had done.

All these disappointments happened right around the same time. For the early part of his life he was given everything he asked for and the main reason he came out as such a prat is because he never had to hear the word "no."

Again, I point to the Hansel and Gretel analogy of giving them whatever just so they can be eaten.

So yeah, it's not like everything came out sunshine and roses for him in the end, but let's face it, Garland didn't even try to set him up for how to deal with disappointment. To me, that's the very definition of the word spoiled.

Because he's gonna die and Garland considered his efforts to betray him unimportant until he tried to get Alexander. Garland seemed to treat Kuja indifferently more than anything else because he knew about his lifespan limit and was sure he was stronger.

If they react to their cancer by trying to kill everyone on the planet, then yeah, they're cunts.

Personally I wouldn't care. I don't judge most of the time which eems to be the fundamental moral difference in this argument.


Garland: I built you to last only until the worthy Genome, Zidane, grew.
It was too dangerous to let you last any longer than that.

Just as I said, a disposable tool from the beginning.
Of course, so was Garland. He is not to blame either.

And OT, but what's with the username/ Lolis shouldn't have big tits or really any tits at all. Kinda the point.

EDIT: Well I agree. Kuja is very sympathetic. I just don't find him childish.

 

[Max Payne]

Solidus isn't really what I'd call a "great" villain, he's serviceable, but he's not really unique or striking in any manner.

You're welcome to disagree and all, but I don't think Kuja was all that concerned about leaving a mark on the world until Garland mentioned he hasn't. Which leads me to believe he only wanted to do so because it was something he didn't have, another representation of his spoiled attitude.

I mean, before that scene exactly when did he mentioned wanting to make a mark on history?

 

[Nikkolas]

Eh. I found Solidus the most compelling antagonist in the MGS series. He had noble goals but violent, brutal methods. Yet not so brutal you would call him an out-and-out villain. Like Liquid said in MGS 'The Brother of Light and the Brother of Dark." Solid is obviously Light, Liquid is obviously Dark. Solidus is grey.

Of course I also enjoyed just how blatantly evil Volgin was.

I mean, before that scene exactly when did he mentioned wanting to make a mark on history?

The line I posted above the Garland quote. About building an eternal kingdom. He said he'd rule forever with that kingdom and that I always interpreted as referring to the mark he'd leave on the world.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Again, I point to the Hansel and Gretel analogy of giving them whatever just so they can be eaten.

The witch didn't raise Hansel and Gretel though, so it's not an accurate analogy. Moreover, Kuja's death isn't, if my memory serves correctly, an consequence intentionally bestowed upon Kuja by his creator. It's just something that can't be avoided. Your analogy is flawed.

 

[Max Payne]

Eh. I found Solidus the most compelling antagonist in the MGS series. He had noble goals but violent, brutal methods. Yet not so brutal you would call him an out-and-out villain. Like Liquid said in MGS 'The Brother of Light and the Brother of Dark." Solid is obviously Light, Liquid is obviously Dark. Solidus is grey.

It doesn't matter how noble your goals are, if you'll kill anyone to achieve them. The man didn't give a damn about anything other than getting back at the Patriots, and going down in the history books for it. His ultimate revenge was stripping the patriots of their power. The things he did, and was willing to do to achieve his goals, were still very much evil.But that's irrelevant.

The line I posted above the Garland quote. About building an eternal kingdom. He said he'd rule forever with that kingdom and that I always interpreted as referring to the mark he'd leave on the world.

That's much more indicative of his massive ego, and greed if you ask me.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Moreover, Kuja's death isn't, if my memory serves correctly, an consequence intentionally bestowed upon Kuja by his creator.

Wasn't he designed by Garland to die?

 

[Makoeyes987]

I seriously can't believe anyone is trying to say Kuja isn't spoiled. It's so obvious I'm not even sure what else to say. His actions are those of a spoiled child and everyone else can see that.

Him being raised as a superior Genome is the cause of this. He's not a good person at all. He's spoiled to the 10th power. I don't know how anyone can argue this.

And Kuja's quote about ruling has nothing to do with him leaving a mark on the world, and everything to do with his megalomania and superiority complex. He wants to rule Gaia and Terra. That's what its a reference to.

Also, Kuja was created with a limited lifespan because he was only meant to serve until Zidane matured to take his place. That was always the case.

 

[Max Payne]

I'm pretty sure he was designed as such.

 

[Ⓐaron]

as far as I'm aware it was impossible for Garland to create immortal Genomes. I could be mistaken though as it's been about five years since I played the game. Even if he was designed to die it doesn't change the fact that he'd been given basically everything he asked for up to that point.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

as far as I'm aware it was impossible for Garland to create immortal Genomes.

All of the Genomes except Kuja, Zidane, and Mikoto are immortal.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Where does it say that? I definitely don't remember it in the game.

In any case, wasn't Kuja the prototype? so he could've perfected it later on.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Where does it say that? I definitely don't remember it in the game.

It says it...a lot. You shouldn't even have to look too hard to find it anywhere, whether it be from a wiki, a script, or just a save while you're in Bran Bal.

And no, Kuja wasn't the prototype, at least not for Genomes. (he was in relation to Zidane). Garland was making Genomes for quite some time (thousands of years?) before the 20 odd years Kuja was made.

 

[Nikkolas]

I seriously can't believe anyone is trying to say Kuja isn't spoiled. It's so obvious I'm not even sure what else to say. His actions are those of a spoiled child and everyone else can see that.

His actions are those of a selfish person, nothing more or less.

It is evident from Kuja's quote, that I've posted twice now, he was damned if he did and damned if he didn't. If he failed or tried something on his own, as seen in Alexandria, Garland could kill him. If he succeeded, well he died. His soul went to whoever it belonged to or whatever.
So if your defintion of spoiled is "you fucking die if you do your job right", then I guess he is spoiled.

And really I wonder how people here would react if God came down, said "you are worthless. I'll make someoen better than you thus giving you no reason to even exist". I'm sure we'd all turn out o be well-adjusted. I mean sure there's nothing saying Garland used those words but there's no proof he pampered Kuja like so many people here claim.

If anyone was spoiled it be Mikoto.