Similarities Between Genesis and Kuja

[Munatik]

People do a lot of things for a lot of reasons and the more immediate answer is not necessarily the right one. Kuja grew up with an evil person, Vivi didn't. As far as I can tell he was supposed to be a mindless tool.

Wait, this isn't a question of how evil the person was that raised him. That's irrelevant. You can spoil the shit out of someone whether you're good or evil.

Kuja was always a prick, even before he knew he was mortal. You can't attribute Kuja's bad behavior to anything else but him being spoiled and having a massive ego and entitlement complex. There is no other answer.

I have to agree with this.

 

[megas_sephiroth]

What I meant is that a lot of his behaviour comes from Garland, while Vivi didn't have that kind of bad influence, hence the different answers to the same problem.

Not all special attention qualifies as good attention...

 

[Makoeyes987]

Uh no..Garland didn't make Kuja be a traitorous dick to his cause or put the idea of taking over Gaia and Terra into his head. That's all Kuja. And that's from his sense of entitlement and superiority. He's fucking spoiled, and you know it. You're making no sense.

And yeah, but most of Kuja's attention WAS special and gave him exactly what he wanted, hence him being able to use it against Garland for his own purposes.

Kuja: Hahahahaha! This is too easy! The Invincible is mine! Now, I have
the power to control all souls! Garland gave me everything without a
fight. The old fool was too busy dealing with him. Now, only death
awaits him. Poor Garland... Bitten by his own dog... This is no accident.
Fate has chosen me to become new ruler of Terra! Time for me to put on
the finishing touches.

That's not indicative of Kuja getting bad treatment. At all. In fact, that shows that he's just turning on him and is a traitorous, spoiled asshole.

 

[Munatik]

Wait, are we going to claim that Quan was a good influence? To Vivi he was probably swell, but the thing wanted to fucking eat him.

 

[megas_sephiroth]

I am making sense. He's not spoiled because he lacked that kind of attention from someone. You seem to be under the impression that being spoiled only comes from having tons of stuff and it doesn't. It's not that simple.

That "gave" is not used in its common sense.

 

[Ⓐaron]

I think I kind of see what megas_sephiroth is getting at. Garland may have given everything Kuja wanted but he was also fairly cold, and he was only doing it for selfish reasons. That said, I disagree that that means he's not spoiled. I think this argument is mostly over semantics.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Then what is it? Because you haven't put forth any other explanation at all. Considering Kuja says out of his own mouth he was given everything necessary and thus turns it against Garland, his creator. If Kuja is not spoiled, then again, you clearly aren't following the normal definition of what spoiled behavior dictates. Because he certainly feeling entitled to everything.

 

[megas_sephiroth]

I think I kind of see what megas_sephiroth is getting at. Garland may have given everything Kuja wanted but he was also fairly cold, and he was only doing it for selfish reasons. That said, I disagree that that means he's not spoiled. I think this argument is mostly over semantics.

Yes, that's it. The argument is mostly over the fact that Mako and I don't have the same definition of spoiled, so yeah, it's semantics.

You don't have to put forth a theory to discredit another. But if you want my theory, Garland gave Kuja a soul, but he clearly saw him as the other genomes, another means to an end. He didn't acknowledge Kuja as a being with a soul and a mind of his own, with his own purpose. That makes for a very insecure person, which is probably why Kuja pretended to be this and that while in Gaia. It's probably the reason why he needed to prove himself, the world, and especially Garland, that he was capable of much more, including killing his creator and taking his place.

But like mutanik said, he didn't pick the right choice.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Kuja didn't give a damn what Garland thought, so that theory makes no sense. The only insecurity Kuja felt was towards Zidane and Zidane being "better" than him. It has nothing to do with proving anything to Garland. He only wanted to take what was Garland's and use it for his own ambitions. Where are you getting this desire to prove himself worthy to Garland idea from?

His motivation was him being a selfish and spoiled Genome with the ambition to conquer two worlds for himself. He had nothing to prove because he felt he was the best. If anything, he despised Garland for creating Zidane because he felt it was an affront to his superiority.

 

[megas_sephiroth]

Kuja didn't give a damn what Garland thought, so that theory makes no sense. The only insecurity Kuja felt was towards Zidane and Zidane being "better" than him. It has nothing to do with proving anything to Garland. He only wanted to take what was Garland's and use it for his own ambitions. Where are you getting this desire to prove himself worthy to Garland idea from?

His motivation was him being a selfish and spoiled Genome with the ambition to conquer two worlds for himself. He had nothing to prove because he felt he was the best. If anything, he despised Garland for creating Zidane because he felt it was an affront to his superiority.

I didn't say he wanted to prove himself worthy, I said that maybe he wanted to prove himself better. It's a theory, we're talking about human personnality, not about an exact science. My guess is as good as anyone's.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Only if your guess is based on something actually present in the game. Where is Kuja trying to prove he's better? He already FEELS he's better, so that's kind of a redundant point. Why would he say "I'll make the people of both Gaia and Terra know whom rules over all of them!" and "Fate has chosen me to become new ruler of Terra!" if he feels he needs to prove himself better? He clearly already believes it.

Again, your speculation makes no sense, when almost everyone here can see Kuja's a spoiled and egotistical villain. You've not made a factual point or observation stating otherwise.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Outward arrogance and inner insecurity actually kind of go hand in hand in a number of cases. In other words, a person might develop a narcissistic personality in response to an inner shortcoming the person is aware of but doesn't really want to acknowledge or work on because it would be too painful/equate to admitting "weakness"/being wrong. So Kuja caring about Garland's opinion, despite his outer appearance of not giving a shit about anyone's feelings, might actually be possible, it just doesn't seem particularly likely. I doubt the writers would go for such a convoluted plot when the simpler explanation makes equal if not greater sense.

 

[megas_sephiroth]

Like I said, human personnality is not an exact science. I'm basing my theory on his actions and words, because I simply can't know for sure what someone is thinking or feeling.

It's just that, a theory.

I normally go for the complicated answer...

 

[Makoeyes987]

That theory would go hand in hand if he actually gloated in that regard when he finally does kill Garland. Instead he just merely lords over him, showing how much better than Garland he is, and finally kicks Garland away as if he were garbage.

If he was insistent of proving something to Garland, or if Garland was important to Kuja, other than a means to an end, you'd have a point but he shows zero interest in Garland and only kills him. That's not indicative of him having some Daddy Complex regarding his creator. The only complex he has is with Zidane. Garland was an obstacle that needed to be crushed.

And that still doesn't change the fact he's spoiled. You've still shown no argument of him NOT being spoiled. You're making no sense bringing up these useless and absurd strawmen. Kuja's fucking spoiled.

 

[BWAngel]

I wanna see Genesis' thong.

Thong? I thought he went commando.

 

[megas_sephiroth]

That theory would go hand in hand if he actually gloated in that regard when he finally does kill Garland. Instead he just merely lords over him, showing how much better than Garland he is, and finally kicks Garland away as if he were garbage.

If he was insistent of proving something to Garland, or if Garland was important to Kuja, other than a means to an end, you'd have a point but he shows zero interest in Garland and only kills him. That's not indicative of him having some Daddy Complex regarding his creator. The only complex he has is with Zidane. Garland was an obstacle that needed to be crushed.

And that still doesn't change the fact he's spoiled. You've still shown no argument of him NOT being spoiled. You're making no sense bringing up these useless and absurd strawmen. Kuja's fucking spoiled.

Yes, I did. Spoiled brats are pretty sure of themselves, which is why they think they are entitled to everything. Besides, he's not going to openly gloat about killing Garland simply because if his problem was insecurity, he would be acknowleding it for all to see.

 

[Makoeyes987]

And Kuja is not sure of himself? He doesn't believe he's entitled to everything? You're talking yourself into a corner now.

And that makes no sense, if he was insecure about it, then by the definition of the insecurity it'd be motivating him and effecting his interactions with Garland. Just like it did for Zidane and just like his insecurity realizing his mortality. You can't say he wouldn't show it regarding Garland, if he shows his insecurity clearly for everyone to see, when it comes to Zidane and death. He clearly doesn't hide anything very well.

 

[megas_sephiroth]

Outward arrogance and inner insecurity actually kind of go hand in hand in a number of cases. In other words, a person might develop a narcissistic personality in response to an inner shortcoming the person is aware of but doesn't really want to acknowledge or work on because it would be too painful/equate to admitting "weakness"/being wrong. So Kuja caring about Garland's opinion, despite his outer appearance of not giving a shit about anyone's feelings, might actually be possible, it just doesn't seem particularly likely. I doubt the writers would go for such a convoluted plot when the simpler explanation makes equal if not greater sense.

 

[Makoeyes987]

So Kuja outwardly express his insecurity regarding Zidane and his fear of death but is secretly hiding one for Garland?

Yeah, that makes A LOT of sense! I guess "consistency" isn't part of your theory either. And I guess you missed that last line. "I doubt the writers would go for such a convoluted plot when the simpler explanation makes equal if not greater sense."

 

[Munatik]

Thong? I thought he went commando.

We need someone to investigate this.

 

[megas_sephiroth]

So Kuja outwardly express his insecurity regarding Zidane and his fear of death but is secretly hiding one for Garland?

Yeah, that makes A LOT of sense! I guess "consistency" isn't part of your theory either. And I guess you missed that last line. "I doubt the writers would go for such a convoluted plot when the simpler explanation makes equal if not greater sense."

We are not going to agree on this...

No, I didn't miss the last line, V is entitled to his own opinion, as I am to mine you are to yours...

@mutanik
I say send Zack on the mission.

 

[Nikkolas]

Kuja: You two just don't get it!
I need an eidolon more powerful than Alexander! An eidolon with the power to bury Garland! His powers are so incredible; I cannot even come close. I must destroy him before Terra's plan is activated, or my soul will no longer be my own!

When the true people of Terra awaken with the assimilation of Gaia by Terra, Kuja will have served his use and the soul he was given would probably go back to whomever it originally belonged to.

His attempts to conquer Gaia and Terra serve not only to prove what he believes, that he is the strongest being in existence, but also to save himself.

His final decision to kill everything when he finds out he will die has nothing to do with being spoiled. Regardless of his treatment or what he was born, Kuja had a very large ego. He had spent his entire life denying who he was and trying to achieve the power he felt he deserved. And he finally had it...only to have it rendered meaningless in a few minutes. His conclusion then was "well I'm the best thing alive. Why should the lesser beings be allowed to live if I can't?' which makes perfect sense if you factor in his narcissism.

Kuja's final actions were very human. To save himself, he decided to destroy the origin of life. His very existence, and that of everyone else, will be nullified as if they had never been. He won't die that way. At least not in the conventional sense.

Also Garland was neither good or evil and certainly not cruel. He was also created to serve a purpose just like the Genomes he made. All he could do was resurrect Terra...that was his purpose.

 

[Munatik]

Regardless of his treatment or what he was born, Kuja had a very large ego. He had spent his entire life denying who he was and trying to achieve the power he felt he deserved. And he finally had it...only to have it rendered meaningless in a few minutes. His conclusion then was "well I'm the best thing alive. Why should the lesser beings be allowed to live if I can't?' which makes perfect sense if you factor in his narcissism.

Yet again, how is this not acting spoiled?

This is like a child who, after having his favorite toy break, thinks that everyone else's toys ought to be broken. I do agree that this reaction is very human, if immature, but this is not a self-preservation tactic. It's nothing but pure spite. Breaking everyone else's toys will not fix the child's. Likewise, Kuja destroying life would not save his own. Or more accurately, him making death meaningless when there is no life in contrast.

 

[Celes Chere]

I agree that Kuja acted VERY spoiled.
-Wanted everything to be his way? Check.
-Over-reacted when things didn't go his way? Check.
-Bitched at people who disagreed? Check.
-Thought he was perfect? Check.

 

[Nikkolas]

Yet again, how is this not acting spoiled?

BBecause Kuja's actions were because of his ego, not his upbringing. Though I suppose you could argue his upbringing hurt his ego what with being second-best and then even if he was the best he'd only be the best disposable tool.

This is like a child who, after having his favorite toy break, thinks that everyone else's toys ought to be broken.

That is a very poor analogy. Most people are scared of death. Particularly in fiction villains strive to overcome death because of their fear of it. It has nothing to do with being spoiled. Do you not think many real life people think "why should I die when murderers, rapists and other scum live?"? Are they all immature too just because they don't want to die while thousands of horrible, worthless people live on?

Breaking everyone else's toys will not fix the child's. Likewise, Kuja destroying life would not save his own. Or more accurately, him making death meaningless when there is no life in contrast.

Of course it does. He can't die if he never lived.

-Wanted everything to be his way? Check.
-Over-reacted when things didn't go his way? Check.
-Bitched at people who disagreed? Check.
-Thought he was perfect? Check.

I guess this means only people raised in the lap of luxury can be full of themselves?