SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Graymouse]

I believe it's fairly reasonable to say that Tifa felt jealousy in that moment, whether it be because she suspects of a hint of romance between Cloud and Aerith or because she's envious at how easily Aerith got close to Cloud where the latter seems to be comfortable around her. It could be a mix of the both. Of course, it's also reasonable to say Tifa's question to Cloud was propounded due to her genuine curiosity. These feelings can co-exist, you know. They're not mutually exclusive, and Tifa having those feelings simultaneously doesn't make her one-dimensional at all. In fact, I support this reading of the scene because it is consistent with Tifa's insecurities during this part of the story. I say this as someone who stans Tifa: she IS insecure---in her motivations, in her actions with AVALANCHE, in her place in the world, in her memories, and in her relationship with Cloud. It is part of who she is right now and it is her character arc to grow out of those insecurities.

But Tifa feeling insecure does not really confirm anything romantic between Cloud and Aerith, at all (it can only be inferred). It only informs us about Tifa.



I know this has been shared numerous times before (between this thread and in former LTD threads) and I didn't say anything, but I just want to point out now that proto-Rude and proto-Reno designs really amuse me considering how different their final versions became. And of course, there is Tseng the Eternal. He has always looked the same even way back the game's development period.

I get what you are saying but at this point in the game Tifa doesn't really have any reason to be jealous over Aerith, insecurities doesn't always equate to jealousy.

 

[Master Bates]

Actually, she does. Aerith getting closer to Cloud with relative ease at such a short time is a reason for her to be jealous because it is something that Tifa herself has not the ease of doing. And while I agree with your last notion, I also believe insecurity and jealousy are very intricately connected and can go hand-in-hand, and that it is fairly reasonable (i.e.,not absolute) to assume Tifa to be jealous at that moment. It is a reading that's consistent with her character.

 

[Graymouse]

Actually, she does. Aerith getting closer to Cloud with relative ease at such a short time is a reason for her to be jealous because it is something that Tifa herself has not the ease of doing. And while I agree with your last notion, I also believe insecurity and jealousy are very intricately connected and can go hand-in-hand, and that it is fairly reasonable (i.e.,not absolute) to assume Tifa to be jealous at that moment. It is a reading that's consistent with her character.

I am genuinely confused, how does Tifa at that very moment know that Cloud is getting close to Aerith? What indications are there? As far as Tifa is concerned at this point, is that Aerith is a girl that helped Cloud rescue her. I don't think Tifa would be be jealous of that?

I agree with what you said about insecurities and jealousy can go hand in hand but in this situation I don't think that is the case.

 

[Master Bates]

From the ease and lighthearted tone of their interactions, from the amicable and playful way at which they address and refer to each other, and from the fact that Aerith was there with Cloud (and vice versa) in their Don Corneo mission, despite that they JUST had met. Take into consideration Cloud's aloofness and dismissiveness he has displayed towards strangers beforehand and I have no trouble believing Tifa feeling jealous/insecure at how Aerith has managed to break those walls.

 

[Graymouse]

From the ease and lighthearted tone of their interactions, from the amicable and playful way at which they address and refer to each other, and from the fact that Aerith was there with Cloud (and vice versa) in their Don Corneo mission, despite that they JUST had met. Take into consideration Cloud's aloofness and dismissiveness he has displayed towards strangers beforehand and I have no trouble believing Tifa feeling jealous/insecure at how Aerith has managed to break those walls.

Ok, that would make sense if Tifa was there during the rescue mission, which she wasn't. She was there at the end of the mission, I will give you that, again that is way too short of time for Tifa to get a read on Aerith.

I guess what I am saying is that you are projecting player knowledge onto character knowledge. It is like playing Dungeon and Dragons. You as a player knows these things, but you as a character don't.

Think of it from Tifa's point of view. That is why Tifa asked Cloud in the first place, "where did you two meet?" she was trying to get a read on Aerith. That doesn't always mean that there was a jealous undertone to the question.

 

[Master Bates]

She doesn't need to be there the entire mission. They already had interactions together prior to meeting Don Corneo, and Cloud and Aerith had displayed much familiarity during that short amount of time, enough that Cloud was able to state with confidence that Tifa 'cannot talk Aerith out of the mission.'

 

[Graymouse]

She doesn't need to be there the entire mission. They already had interactions together prior to meeting Don Corneo, and Cloud and Aerith had displayed much familiarity during that short amount of time, enough that Cloud was able to state with confidence that Tifa 'cannot talk Aerith out of the mission.'

"They" in this instance I am assuming you are referring to Cloud and Aerith? Again, there is no way that Tifa knows that. I think Tifa was more confused then jealous when Aerith and Tifa first meet. I really don't think Tifa would fly of the handle being jealous so quickly. It goes against her personality in the Remake. Especially, up to that point in the game.

 

[Master Bates]

By 'they' I meant the three of them.

 

[MasterMoogle]

The problem with the CxA relationship is that while Aerith was alive it barely got off the ground, and before Aerith died several things occurred:

- Aerith admitted to being interested in Cloud but not knowing the real him.
- Cloud beat the crap out of her at the Temple of the Ancients, under Sephiroth's control.
- Cloud almost sliced her in two at the City of the Ancients, again under Sephiroth's control.

HOWEVER, after Aerith died, all of a sudden the game started treating her like a saint compelling guilt in Cloud and guiding him towards defeating Sephiroth. It is at this moment where I think many people started making more of their relationship(even the devs at time) than was actually shown.

This is why, while I do think they cared for eachother, and there was a mutual interest there, I can't claim they were ever in love. Feelings of guilt are not the same as romantic love.

 

[MasterMoogle]

The problem with the CxA relationship is that while Aerith was alive it barely got off the ground, and before Aerith died several things occurred:

- Aerith admitted to being interested in Cloud but not knowing the real him.
- Cloud beat the crap out of her at the Temple of the Ancients, under Sephiroth's control.
- Cloud almost sliced her in two at the City of the Ancients, again under Sephiroth's control.

HOWEVER, after Aerith died, all of a sudden the game started treating her like a saint compelling guilt in Cloud and guiding him towards defeating Sephiroth. It is at this moment where I think many people started making more of their relationship(even the devs at time) than was actually shown.

This is why, while I do think they cared for eachother, and there was a mutual interest there, I can't claim they were ever in love. Feelings of guilt are not the same as romantic love.

Btw, this quote isn't in response to anyone specific.

 

[Graymouse]

By 'they' I meant the three of them.

Are you referring to Cloud and Tifa and Cloud and Aerith interactions in the previous chapters?

Aerith and Tifa does not have any direct knowledge of each other until the end of the rescue.

 

[Master Bates]

Are you referring to Cloud and Tifa and Cloud and Aerith interactions in the previous chapters?

Aerith and Tifa does not have any direct knowledge of each other until the end of the rescue.

All three of them together. Their interaction prior to meeting Don Corneo, when Aerith proposed for the three of them to become 'bride' candidates. Cloud and Aerith had displayed much familiarity then. Tifa was also informed that 'Aerith helped Cloud' get into the mansion, thus giving Tifa indirect knowledge of the mission. Tifa doesn't need to be with Cloud and Aerith during the entire mission and see what has transpired; she only needs to infer from the interactions between Cloud and Aerith when all three of them were in the same room.

Edit: No need to drag this further. You don't think and can't consider the possibility of Tifa being jealous. That's fine by me and it is a reasonable interpretation. I just think it is also just as equally reasonable to interpret Tifa as being jealous, which is a reading that I can support.

 

[Graymouse]

All three of them together. Their interaction prior to meeting Don Corneo, when Aerith proposed for the three of them to become 'bride' candidates. Cloud and Aerith had displayed much familiarity then. Tifa was also informed that 'Aerith helped Cloud' get into the mansion, thus giving Tifa indirect knowledge of the mission. Tifa doesn't need to be with Cloud and Aerith during the entire mission and see what has transpired; she only needs to infer from the interactions between Cloud and Aerith when all three of them were in the same room.

Edit: No need to drag this further. You don't think and can't consider the possibility of Tifa being jealous. That's fine by me and it is a reasonable interpretation. I just think it is also just as equally reasonable to interpret Tifa as being jealous, which is a reading that I can support.

Oh, I see what you are getting at, You are talking about when Cloud makes a comment about trying to talk Aerith out of something, once she makes up her mind on something, and the Aerith runs over an slaps Cloud on the arm. I don't see how Tifa would be jealous over that. There is really no indication of jealous there.

I think Tifa was more concerned about getting Aerith mixed up with the whole avalanche situation. In fact, Tifa actually says that in the scene in the sewer. If you pick Tifa to check up on.

ETA: @Master Bates I agree. I guess on this we will have to agree to disagree and likewise I am fine with this.

 

[Master Bates]

Oh, I see what you are getting at, You are talking about when Cloud makes a comment about trying to talk Aerith out of something, once she makes up her mind on something, and the Aerith runs over an slaps Cloud on the arm. I don't see how Tifa would be jealous over that. There is really no indication of jealous there.

Just to clarify. I wasn't saying Tifa is jealous over that specific exchange, just that that little exchange is an indication, among others, of Cloud and Aerith's growing closeness, which is what Tifa could be jealous of.

 

[Graymouse]

Just to clarify. I wasn't saying Tifa is jealous over that specific exchange, just that that little exchange is an indication, among others, of Cloud and Aerith's growing closeness, which is what Tifa could be jealous of.

Nice, I can agree to that. I do think that Tifa has some insecurities on how close Aerith and Cloud are getting, but not quite the Green Monster level yet. Which if you think about it kinda fits into Tifa's personality in the remake. That's all I am saying.

I can see how Jealously could lead to be interpreted through those insecurities.

 

[Master Bates]

Well I'm fine with my girl feeling the green at times; in fact, I prefer it. I like my characters better when they're exhibiting unattractive flaws and be vulnerable, which is why I like OG Aerith infinitely more than the Jesus Aerith of the Compilation.

 

[null]

Interesting topic. I feel like "jealous" has some negative overtones that Remake has been careful to avoid: resentment, anger, unhappiness, inadequacy etc. Plus Tifa was having a blast with Chairith a few moments earlier, so that's a big tonal shift.

On the other hand, this pretty new girl has Cloud fussing over her and somehow even trained him to be agreeable. Tifa's bound to have some conflicted feelings about him getting close with someone else so quickly, but still, he's not hers to lose yet. What's the word for "romantically concerned while remaining classy"? It's a question that needs to be addressed, but I'm not sure Tifa could ask at any other point without sounding crass. So maybe it had to go there.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I haven't read through this whole thread but I just wanted to say, it's possible to like someone, even love them, and also be jealous of them. Tifa and Aerith can be good friends, and yet Tifa can still be jealous of the ease with which Aerith reaches through Cloud's barriers and connects with him. Being jealous doesn't automatically mean you want to scratch someone's eyes out! If Aerith and Cloud did truly fall in love and end up together, Tifa would be happier for them than anyone else, and she'd probably move on herself, but there would always be a little sadness and regret for what might have been. Cloud is the most important person in Tifa's world.

Human beings are complicated. We wish we weren't, which is why we keep trying to over-simplify fictional characters made human and complex by their creators.

 

[Graymouse]

Jealousy in my opinion is a very negative emotion. Nothing good comes out of it. I get what everyone is saying, I really do. However, I just think that is not the way the Devs portrayed these characters in the Remake. In fact I think they were very meticulous to not do that and put the characters up against each other. The Devs interviews have said this. I really didn't see much of a rivalry between Tifa and Aerith at all in the remake.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Jealousy can be an ache you wall away in a secret corner of your heart.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Reunion flower not romantic? ... Leslie says screw that ?

 

[Master Bates]

Jealousy can be an ache you wall away in a secret corner of your heart.

Yes. It can be internalized without the person feeling it acting out; and it can mix among other things, which is why in my original post I specifically said Tifa could've been jealous as much as she was genuinely curious.

While it is true the devs had tried to avoid rivalry between Aerith and Tifa over Cloud, that does not however preclude feelings of jealousy to possibly foster in the characters involved.

I will still emphasize Ryu's and Tres' points though---just to connect this thing back to the LTD---that jealousy felt by one point of the triangle does not indicate nor confirm feelings of the other two points of the triangle. So Tifa possibly feeling jealous doesn't have to mean that Cloud and Aerith are in love with each other.

 

[Graymouse]

Yes. It can be internalized without the person feeling it acting out; and it can mix among other things, which is why in my original post I specifically said Tifa could've been jealous as much as she was genuinely curious.

While it is true the devs had tried to avoid rivalry between Aerith and Tifa over Cloud, that does not however preclude feelings of jealousy to possibly foster in the characters involved.

I will still emphasize Ryu's and Tres' points though---just to connect this thing back to the LTD---that jealousy felt by one point of the triangle does not indicate nor confirm feelings of the other two points of the triangle. So Tifa possibly feeling jealous doesn't have to mean that Cloud and Aerith are in love with each other.

I got what you are saying, maybe there was some misunderstanding on my part here, but I wasn't trying to push the love side of the triangle in any direction in this conversation. This has nothing to do with if Cloud and Tifa or Cloud and Aerith love each other or don't love each other. That wasn't what I was trying to convey. I apologize if I was leading to that. That was not my intention at all.

I really can see that Tifa could be jealous of Aerith. I can see that happening. What I am saying is that while playing the Remake, I didn't see any indications of that at all between the two. I might be mistaken in this but I was asking for solid proof of this happening, not interpretation to happen. If that makes sense.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[MasterMoogle]

I am glad that the Remake greatly reduced the rivalry between the two girls. It shows that friendship is much more important than jealousy over a guy. Wouldn't really fit into our times, anyway. And I don't think that a character's (a woman's at that) importance hinges on whether the (male) protagonist is romantically interested in her. Not anymore, those times are over, fortunately.

Aside from that When I played the OG for the first few times, I still remember feeling a much deeper emotional connection between Cloud and Aerith and even seeing them together in a romantic way, for all the flirting and everything. I don't feel or see any of that in the Remake. Not even in the few "Clerith"-scenes we get. Much more I feel a brother/sister/close friends-bond between them.
And the huge addition of Cloti-scenes we got clearly points in one direction and one direction only to me. Plus Aerith still dies and if she should really turn out to live by some highly unlikely fate/ timeline-sheenanigans then by all rights, Zack should live as well and if that happens, the pairings are all the clearer (not saying it will, I don't think that's realistic).

Well, I can just describe my own feelings and they are pretty clear. But I still respect other opinions, of course.

I also thought they came off more sibling-like, but that's enough to get CxA shippers invested. Like Enthralled said, I don't think they'll be dropping the triangle anytime soon, but it wouldn't surprise me if they did drop it eventually. This might explain why Zack is making a comeback.

If I had to make a prediction, I'd say the story will follow the OG almost verbatim until the City of the Ancients scene, where I think Zack will swoop in and save Aerith, and then the game will end on a cliffhanger.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Wait so in JP Cloud says to Hojo "I'm going to get you to return Aerith to me"?! Wow now Hojo's part about saying did Aerith belong to you/was she your property or something makes more sense, thought that part was a bit jarring/huh wait what before, good to know the context.

Also "You came for me" "Yup" Heh heh heh.