SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[nars305]

Aaaaaaaaand he's gone. Ugly cry and asking Hojo to give him a number

Part 3 is going to be pretty rough ain’t it…

 

[Yoru]

Part 3 is going to be pretty rough ain’t it…

We're in for pretty damn good voice acting moments.

To go back on what you were saying, I only see a problem with it. LS scene is supposed to be the moment Cloud open his mind to Tifa. And it's a pretty big "thing" in the OG. She's the only one Cloud lets enter. That's why she's important in the first place. So including Aerith and Zack moments are not really useful because.... Tifa can't really help with it. We're supposed to return to the city of Ancients, and it's here we're supposed to see Aerith death again. That's when Cloud talk about sacrifice and Tifa corrects him saying "no... she wanted to live..." yadi yada. So it would be repetitive if we see it too in the LS. As for Zack death... well Tifa wasn't here... so her POV is useless too.

Of course they could do it. But it implies some re-writing compared to OG.

 

[nars305]

We're in for pretty damn good voice acting moments.

To go back on what you were saying, I only see a problem with it. LS scene is supposed to be the moment Cloud open his mind to Tifa. And it's a pretty big "thing" in the OG. She's the only one Cloud lets enter. That's why she's important in the first place. So including Aerith and Zack moments are not really useful because.... Tifa can't really help with it. We're supposed to return to the city of Ancients, and it's here we're supposed to see Aerith death again. That's when Cloud talk about sacrifice and Tifa corrects him saying "no... she wanted to live..." yadi yada. So it would be repetitive if we see it too in the LS. As for Zack death... well Tifa wasn't here... so her POV is useless too.

Of course they could do it. But it implies some re-writing compared to OG.

Ah there are bits I don’t know about since I haven’t finished watching the entirety of OG.

I trust they’ll do well with it. I also wouldn’t assume they’d include Zack and Aerith within the LS, since that’s very specific to Tifa and Cloud.

I can’t help but wonder what they’ll do! To me the most beautiful cutscene SE has ever made is Lunafreya’s death, so I am feeling like at last, something might surpass that.

 

[LNK]

That's when Cloud talk about sacrifice and Tifa corrects him saying "no... she wanted to live..." yadi yada. So it would be repetitive if we see it too in the LS. As for Zack death... well Tifa wasn't here... so her POV is useless too.

They don't need to have that specific moment happen twice, instead they can add a different Aerith scene during the LS sequence. I don't mean actually having Aerith be there though. It would just be a memory of her, that Tifa is helping him with. Aerith's death would be the perfect candidate

 

[LNK]

I can’t help but wonder what they’ll do! To me the most beautiful cutscene SE has ever made is Lunafreya’s death, so I am feeling like at last, something might surpass that.

No! nothing will ever pass that scene!!! Grrrrrr

 

[Yoru]

They don't need to have that specific moment happen twice, instead they can add a different Aerith scene during the LS sequence. I don't mean actually having Aerith be there though. It would just be a memory of her, that Tifa is helping him with. Aerith's death would be the perfect candidate

What I'm saying is that Tifa is supposed to be here to help. She does it by confronting shared memories with him. So I don't know if she could be of any help with Aerith and Zack... when she wasn't there to begin with. Like yeah sure Aerith is dead and he forgot it. But how does knowing it helps Cloud remember who he really is ?

So yeah. They could do it. But they have to re-write the meaning of this LS sequence to make it works

 

[nars305]

No! nothing will ever pass that scene!!! Grrrrrr

You can see why I need to cool down my high expectation hahaha, nothing has come close!

 

[nars305]

What I'm saying is that Tifa is supposed to be here to help. She does it by confronting shared memories with him. So I don't know if she could be of any help with Aerith and Zack... when she wasn't there to begin with. Like yeah sure Aerith is dead and he forgot it. But how does knowing it helps Cloud remember who he really is ?

So yeah. They could do it. But they have to re-write the meaning of this LS sequence to make it works

Yeah the LS is very specific to Cloud and Tifa.

The thing that leads Cloud to becoming himself again is him remembering a memory specific to Tifa. Aerith’s death wouldn’t work in my opinion because Cloud knows he was there and so was Tifa. The point of it being a memory in Nibelheim is that it proves Cloud is Cloud of Nibelheim. That he is a real person.

 

[Yoru]

You can see why I need to cool down my high expectation hahaha, nothing has come close!

Honestly they have the material. The LS scene alone can make for an epic, wholesome, romantic CGI with its otherworldly ambience. Literally a place where everything can happen. But yeah it will be difficult to top the beauty of Luna's farewell.

Yeah the LS is very specific to Cloud and Tifa.

The thing that leads Cloud to becoming himself again is him remembering a memory specific to Tifa. Aerith’s death wouldn’t work in my opinion because Cloud knows he was there and so was Tifa. The point of it being a memory in Nibelheim is that it proves Cloud is Cloud of Nibelheim. That he is a real person.

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Exactly. You said it all.

 

[imach0c0]

Yeah the LS is very specific to Cloud and Tifa.

The thing that leads Cloud to becoming himself again is him remembering a memory specific to Tifa. Aerith’s death wouldn’t work in my opinion because Cloud knows he was there and so was Tifa. The point of it being a memory in Nibelheim is that it proves Cloud is Cloud of Nibelheim. That he is a real person.

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What if they expand it to include his memories of Aerith's death and Zack's death? Tifa was not there for Zack's death so I don't know how that would work. Aerith's death maybe since Tifa was there.

 

[Yoru]

What if they expand it to include his memories of Aerith's death and Zack's death? Tifa was not there for Zack's death so I don't know how that would work. Aerith's death maybe since Tifa was there.

Thing is, she was not. She arrived with the others when Aerith is already dead in Cloud's arms. She doesn't really know what happened.

So yeah I don't know if it's really useful to have Aerith and Zack scenes there. Tifa can't compare it with her own memories.

 

[nars305]

What if they expand it to include his memories of Aerith's death and Zack's death? Tifa was not there for Zack's death so I don't know how that would work. Aerith's death maybe since Tifa was there.

It’s not just about him needing to recall what happened to Aerith or Zack. It’s about Cloud needing to know that he actually is a person and not a clone or a puppet as Sephiroth loves to say.

Cloud has memories with Tifa. He has the memory of the promise and the messed up memory of the accident. He questions if his promise with Tifa is even real or if it’s just as Sephiroth says- he made up memories of Nibelheim by hearing Tifa’s stories, the same as what he sees he has done with Zack.

Cloud believes he has no memories as far as being a real person. He needs to remember something from Nibelheim to believe he is a real person. *Remembering that Aerith dies changes nothing because it has nothing to do with what causes his identity crisis.

Aerith’s death is a trauma he is blocking, the same with Zack. Sephiroth uses Cloud’s mental weakness to his advantage.

 

[LNK]

What I'm saying is that Tifa is supposed to be here to help. She does it by confronting shared memories with him. So I don't know if she could be of any help with Aerith and Zack... when she wasn't there to begin with. Like yeah sure Aerith is dead and he forgot it. But how does knowing it helps Cloud remember who he really is ?

So yeah. They could do it. But they have to re-write the meaning of this LS sequence to make it works

I don't really see how it'd have to be a rewrite of the meaning of the LS sequence though. Tifa would be helping Cloud with another shared memory they have with each other. A huge shared memory they have to be exact.

The thing that leads Cloud to becoming himself again is him remembering a memory specific to Tifa. Aerith’s death wouldn’t work in my opinion because Cloud knows he was there and so was Tifa. The point of it being a memory in Nibelheim is that it proves Cloud is Cloud of Nibelheim. That he is a real person.

Yes, Cloud was there, but he's the only one that comes across as not acknowledging the fact she's dead.

 

[nars305]

Yes, Cloud was there, but he's the only one that comes across as not acknowledging the fact she's dead.

I think I didn’t articulate what I meant properly.

The bottom line of what the lifestream is, is Cloud learning that he is a real person. It’s not about overcoming his trauma, accepting death, none of that. Cloud doesn’t believe he is Cloud, just a puppet full of Zack and Tifa’s memories.

The only thing that can convince Cloud that he is real is a memory from where he comes from and one that Tifa can tell him is real.

Why that is? I don’t know, for some reason Cloud REALLY admires Tifa and cares about her opinion of him.

 

[Eerie]

They don't need to have that specific moment happen twice, instead they can add a different Aerith scene during the LS sequence. I don't mean actually having Aerith be there though. It would just be a memory of her, that Tifa is helping him with. Aerith's death would be the perfect candidate

What if they expand it to include his memories of Aerith's death and Zack's death? Tifa was not there for Zack's death so I don't know how that would work. Aerith's death maybe since Tifa was there.

The LS sequence is a love confession from Cloud to Tifa, and the realisation from Cloud that Tifa loves his true self, that he doesn't need to be a hero for her to love him. Can you imagine DEATHS being inserted into that? It's supposed to be a moment of glory and hope for Cloud as he pieces his self back.

Zack's death in the OG was not inserted in the LS sequence, even worse it was moved from being right after to the Nibelheim Mansion to avoid exactly that, conflating a death with the LS sequence.

It’s not just about him needing to recall what happened to Aerith or Zack. It’s about Cloud needing to know that he actually is a person and not a clone or a puppet as Sephiroth loves to say.

This, so much this. The LS sequence is a very intimate moment, Cloud lets Tifa in his mind.

In the end we're left in the dark
I drift alone evermore
Finally think I can say simple words I couldn't before
I love you.

This is the hint from Akira to the LS sequence. Whether Cloud does vocalise an "I love you" or not, the LS sequence remains romantic by nature. Can you imagine going into a friend's mind to help him with uh... his memories of the girl he loves? Yeah I don't think so.

I don't really see how it'd have to be a rewrite of the meaning of the LS sequence though. Tifa would be helping Cloud with another shared memory they have with each other. A huge shared memory they have to be exact.

There will be a rewrite, to me it's evident as they have Tifa already knowing about the most important memory, the one that proves Cloud is Cloud Strife of Nibelheim: that he wanted to help her when she fell off that bridge after her mother's death.

The fact that this precise memory was presented, that they talked a lot about their memories during the sidequests and main quest, all of this makes me think that they're going to focus on feelings, hopes and dreams rather than memories. It's what is attached to those memories that make them important; it's Cloud's love for Tifa that make those memories important. So we're going to dive deeper in Cloud's mind since that memory alone cannot prove he's Cloud Strife anymore, but going through probably a lot of memories that will be answers to Tifa's memories in ToTP, and the feelings attached to them. It's the fact that he does love that will prove that Cloud is the true Cloud, IMHO. Well that's my theory anyway, since that precious memory already has been used, and given what Rebirth presented us.

 

[Yoru]

I don't really see how it'd have to be a rewrite of the meaning of the LS sequence though. Tifa would be helping Cloud with another shared memory they have with each other. A huge shared memory they have to be exact.

It has to be rewritten if you want to include Zack or Aerith scene. Because in the actual sense of what the LS scene is supposed to be, those scenes are useless. In no way it can be used to help Cloud remembering about being a real human being. Because that's the goal of it all. Show and prove to him that he's not a puppet. It's not a Sephiroth's clone with implanted memories.

Seeing Zack die to save him, or watch Aerith dying in his arms don't prove anything. It proves it happened and he was there, yeah. But we know that. That's not a big secret.

What proves to him he's a real person is with his shared memories with Tifa. How they grew together in Nibelheim, how he promised to her he'll become a Soldier. How he failed and was too ashamed to show his face when he came back as a trooper. That's when he remembers he was there with Zack, that he discovered Tifa between life and death and how she remembered a voice calling to her. That's comparing this sort of shared memories that proves to the both of them that yes, Cloud always existed.

 

[SilverSisu]

Any theories which church Zack is in at the end?

In a world that Cloud created in forgotten capital when he breached the fate and created an alternate world where he saved Aerith.

I think ultimate Aerith transporting Zack there before his world got destroyed would make the most sense.

Before separating Zack asked Cloud to save Aerith. Little did he knew Cloud had already saved her. Cloud did his part and now it is Zack's turn to carry over and reunite with Aerith. I think this Aerith will be our playable Aerith unless we get to see main world Aerith's journey in the lifestream as well.

Would it be too convoluted to have two playable Aeriths in one game?

Then there is Aerith who is still in coma. What are they going to do with her?

I'm still expecting corrupted terrier world Cloud bossfight. Tifa is dead in Terrier world so she is not going to be able to fix Cloud's mind and he would become Sephiroth's puppet. Zack having to end his best friends's suffering would be really tragic. Kinda like when he had to kill his mentor Angeal.

This would really highlight Tifa's importance. Without her Cloud would be a total mess.

 

[LNK]

I think I didn’t articulate what I meant properly.

The bottom line of what the lifestream is, is Cloud learning that he is a real person. It’s not about overcoming his trauma, accepting death, none of that. Cloud doesn’t believe he is Cloud, just a puppet full of Zack and Tifa’s memories.

The only thing that can convince Cloud that he is real is a memory from where he comes from and one that Tifa can tell him is real.

Why that is? I don’t know, for some reason Cloud REALLY admires Tifa and cares about her opinion of him.

The LS sequence is a love confession from Cloud to Tifa, and the realisation from Cloud that Tifa loves his true self, that he doesn't need to be a hero for her to love him. Can you imagine DEATHS being inserted into that? It's supposed to be a moment of glory and hope for Cloud as he pieces his self back.

I agree with all this. If the devs want to show the LS exactly like they did in the OG, than I agree, having the memory of Aerith's death wouldn't be necessary. I think it's possible this won't be the case though.

There will be a rewrite, to me it's evident as they have Tifa already knowing about the most important memory, the one that proves Cloud is Cloud Strife of Nibelheim: that he wanted to help her when she fell off that bridge after her mother's death.

If there will be a rewrite, that gives even more reason to have the LS play out a little differently. Eventually Cloud's going to learn the truth about Zack and Aerith, whether it's during the LS or some other time, I'm open to it.

 

[LNK]

It has to be rewritten if you want to include Zack or Aerith scene. Because in the actual sense of what the LS scene is supposed to be, those scenes are useless.

You're right. I changed up what I said with my other post. If LS kept as is, it would be out of place to add those memories. I think there's a possibility the LS won't be kept as is though

 

[Yoru]

You're right. I changed up what I said with my other post. If LS kept as is, it would be out of place to add those memories. I think there's a possibility the LS won't be kept as is though

Yes. Pretty sure it will change because they already used some of it for Chapter 9 in Rebirth. So yeah they will have to add new things in it.

From my POV it can't be Zack and Aerith because their death is supposed to be a shock to Cloud. And the LS scene is more like a resolution ARC. So I think the best place for a Zack and Aerith scene is when Sephiroth reveals the truth at the Northern crater. Like we saw in Remake, Hojo knows exactly who Cloud is. So he can still be here too to confess it's true Cloud is an experiment.

With Tifa doubting and Aerith and Zack real death revealed, that's when and where Cloud is gonna lose it for real this time. That's when he gives the black materia to the real Sephiroth and the world is doomed.

 

[Eerie]

If there will be a rewrite, that gives even more reason to have the LS play out a little differently. Eventually Cloud's going to learn the truth about Zack and Aerith, whether it's during the LS or some other time, I'm open to it.

But the LS scene is the scene where Tifa shines as the heroine of the intimate plot and that's, at its core, because Cloud loves her. While I do believe that they're going to have to modify it, the essence of it won't, ie it is the scene where you realise that Cloud and Tifa love each other. It's really important that this realisation comes as we discover true Cloud, as to not muddle the message of Tifa's importance to him. Even more now that we saw Tifa's memories in the Lifestream with the same core than Cloud's memories in the OG. This screams soulmates.

 

[SilverSisu]

So, does she figure out her feelings and where her and Cloud stand after experiencing this date with him? Or was she aware prior to the date?

The way i interpreted Aerith's words would be something like this:
"I really like you Cloud but perhaps not in a romantic way. Maybe more like as a dear friend"

I think this date was to show that Cloud and Aerith were not compatible as a romantic couple. Cloud wasn't allowed to buy the gift he wanted to Aerith, Zack's presence was constantly looming around every corner no matter what they were trying to do (gift merchant was talking like Zack and his gift pleased Aerith), them choosing different candies showed that their tastes are different (i.e not compatible) and candy seller's words about how she wished that they have had more time is referencing Aerith's #1 wish that she wanted to spend more time with Zack.

Also the photographer refusing to give them the photo and saying that they don't look like they were on a date but on funeral instead is pretty self explanatory.

And then there was Cloud calling Aerith weird and hurting her feelings. Cloud's reaction to Aerith's antics is polar opposite when compared to Zack.

"Normal is overrated."

Zack was always encouraging Aerith to be herself and not trying to be something she wasn't. This "weirdness" is also what makes Aerith attractive in Zack's eyes. When Cissnei told Zack that Aerith is a cetra and the last one alive he said to himself that "well she is one of a kind"

Zack's influence helped Aerith who had been ostracized her entire life because she was "weird" to accept herself and she found her playful nature and embraced it.

I think this "world" was an illusion that Aerith created because she wanted to be sure what she feels towards Cloud. These people sure act like programmed NPCs and not like real people.

 

[nars305]

Of course it’s not going to be shot for shot the same but I have faith in SE. UTH is an extension of the feelings realized during the LS sequence so there is room for it to be restructured if they include new things.

I’m willing to look like an idiot who spoke too soon and say the LS will be exclusively Cloud and Tifa. If its changed so drastically that it loses its message then I’d say that’s bad on SE and I’m not an idiot.

 

[LNK]

But the LS scene is the scene where Tifa shines as the heroine of the intimate plot and that's, at its core, because Cloud loves her

Oh I agree! I don't think showing Cloud the truth of Aerith's death will take away from that though.

With Tifa doubting and Aerith and Zack real death revealed, that's when and where Cloud is gonna lose it for real this time. That's when he gives the black materia to the real Sephiroth and the world is doomed.

That's if the real death will be revealed in that moment. I'm thinking that's when Sephiroth will tell Cloud he's the one who killed Aerith. The real death reveal could be in the LS

 

[LNK]

I’m willing to look like an idiot who spoke too soon and say the LS will be exclusively Cloud and Tifa. If its changed so drastically that it loses its message then I’d say that’s bad on SE and I’m not an idiot.

To be honest, I lean more towards them ending up keeping it exclusively C and T, but I'm open to them expanding on that, by adding the shared memory of Aerith's real death. It wouldn't change a whole lot imo. Especially if it's not revealed at the NC