SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[pxl_pushr]

And don't all actual player-choice games start at zero? Which makes me wonder why didn't FF7 characters start at zero? I guess Tifa having prior affection points for Cloud makes sense if the gameplay and story were interconnected but the affection points ended up being kind of arbitrary and meaningless anyway?

I don’t have any experience in dating sim games, but are you able to check affinity as you go along?

Using the affection points in FF7 as an argument fundamentally seems odd to me because it’s such a hidden stat, there’s no way it was designed with the intention of players being aware of it. Certainly more utility minded answers to why it’s set up hold more weight?

 

[Ryushikaze]

I don’t have any experience in dating sim games, but are you able to check affinity as you go along?

Using the affection points in FF7 as an argument fundamentally seems odd to me because it’s such a hidden stat, there’s no way it was designed with the intention of players being aware of it. Certainly more utility minded answers to why it’s set up hold more weight?

Yeah. Often the exact value is obscured, but you get a method to check your progress. In OG FF7 there's nothing. The actual numerical values of the affection mechanic are only known at all because because IIRC someone obsessively tracked the value changes on each answer using the PC version.

 

[Ryeleigh]

I don’t have any experience in dating sim games, but are you able to check affinity as you go along?

I guess I was thinking more of Dragon Age Origins which is the only game so far that I know of where the affection meter (or so to speak) is visible? I don't think it was visible in Mass Effect? And I'm not sure if Fire Emblem counts or how it counts the affection points since the -- oh dear, what to call it -- progression is only visible with CBAS support conversations? Then Hatoful Boyfriend was a sort of dating sim but I'm not sure how that worked. The Witcher, too, but I have no idea about that one. And I guess those are the only games with either affection mechanic or player choice that I remember off the top of my head?

Oh, wait. Getting vague memories of Breath of Fire 2 having visible affection points but that had nothing to do with player choices?

 

[Ryushikaze]

I guess I was thinking more of Dragon Age Origins which is the only game so far that I know of where the affection meter (or so to speak) is visible? I don't think it was visible in Mass Effect? And I'm not sure if Fire Emblem counts or how it counts the affection points since the -- oh dear, what to call it -- progression is only visible with CBAS support conversations? Then Hatoful Boyfriend was a sort of dating sim but I'm not sure how that worked. The Witcher, too, but I have no idea about that one. And I guess those are the only games with either affection mechanic or player choice that I remember off the top of my head?

Oh, wait. Getting vague memories of Breath of Fire 2 having visible affection points but that had nothing to do with player choices?

Witcher didn't have an AV system, just a couple of dip switch choices that determined Yen ending, Triss ending, girls pull one over on Geralt ending.
Fire Emblem's support systems were pretty trackable ever since FE4, at least you were given an indicator of when two units got the Koibito lock, and that was even before CBAS which came about in FE6. I think DA and ME had ways to check your affection. Dialogue options if not meters.
Also Witcher's an odd case because that's a case where there was a very canon romance in Ger/Yen in the books, but Triss got put forward in the games because CDPR were anxious about fucking up Yen, and yeah.
Also neither of them mind Geralt sleeping with other people, just each other.

And speaking of FE we do know a couple canonical pairings even in games where you can pick the unit's supports. Like Eliwood/ Ninian.

 

[Ryeleigh]

girls pull one over on Geralt ending.

To be honest, this sounds like a happy ending, lmao.

Fire Emblem's support systems were pretty trackable ever since FE4, at least you were given an indicator of when two units got the Koibito lock, and that was even before CBAS which came about in FE6.

And speaking of FE we do know a couple canonical pairings even in games where you can pick the unit's supports. Like Eliwood/ Ninian.

I think my first Fire Emblem was the one with Eliwood, Ninian, Lyn and Hector. And I have no idea which is it on the space-time continuum, lol. (Why are Japanese game series so long? )

And hey, I always felt that Eliwood/Ninian was canon even if their ending always made me feel so bad for Nils, lol. I also always picked Hector/Lyn since they felt natural to me.

Also Witcher's an odd case because that's a case where there was a very canon romance in Ger/Yen in the books, but Triss got put forward in the games because CDPR were anxious about fucking up Yen, and yeah.

Yeah, I actually ended up rather accidentally sleeping with Triss in the first game because I always pick the "nice" dialogue options and what do you know, the next thing Triss does is topple Geralt to a bed so I decided to just roll with it, lol. I have absolutely no knowledge of the books and I never made it past the second game so I can't say I cared either way. Though, I've seen people call Triss a rapist which was both enough of that fandom discourse for me and very funny when you consider that you can play Geralt like a serial killer in the first game.

 

[Ryushikaze]

To be honest, this sounds like a happy ending, lmao.

Geralt ends up tied to a bed and abandoned until Dandelion/ Jaskier comes and unties him.

I think my first Fire Emblem was the one with Eliwood, Ninian, Lyn and Hector. And I have no idea which is it on the space-time continuum, lol. (Why are Japanese game series so long? )

And hey, I always felt that Eliwood/Ninian was canon even if their ending always made me feel so bad for Nils, lol. I also always picked Hector/Lyn since they felt natural to me.

That's Blazing Blade, Number 7 in the series, prequel to Binding Blade, 6th in the series.
Also Hector Lyn hasn't been quite so officially confirmed, but it does get special treatment same as Eli/Nini does.

Yeah, I actually ended up rather accidentally sleeping with Triss in the first game because I always pick the "nice" dialogue options and what do you know, the next thing Triss does is topple Geralt to a bed so I decided to just roll with it, lol. I have absolutely no knowledge of the books and I never made it past the second game so I can't say I cared either way. Though, I've seen people call Triss a rapist which was both enough of that fandom discourse for me and very funny when you consider that you can play Geralt like a serial killer in the first game.

Triss was definitely taking advantage of Geralt's memories being missing but it's not like Geralt and Yen are the most virtuous souls in existence either.

 

[Sacky]

Yeah. Often the exact value is obscured, but you get a method to check your progress. In OG FF7 there's nothing. The actual numerical values of the affection mechanic are only known at all because because IIRC someone obsessively tracked the value changes on each answer using the PC version.

The discussion I had the person said the game favours Aerith if you play normally? Which makes no sense when there is choice in dialogue and Aeriths OG gold saucer date which they think means Cloud and Aerith are officially a couple because that is super romantic? When Cloud in OG barely responds and you get a choice at the end of only that date to say I don't enjoy spending time with you or it's not that when Aerith asks do you not like hanging out with me because it was awkward telling someone I'm trying to find the real you and bringing up Zack. Same people feel disgusted by Highwind HA happening after that date? Which you can get both and Tifa starts lower because you can overtake Aerith with affection before even meeting Aerith in OG. But yeah I don't know if in their childhood playing the game they think that OG date with Aerith was super romantic or something but watching it now it's quite sad and Cloud doesn't react to any of the dates really? Cause believe it or not he's not thinking about romance and dating

 

[eleamaya]

Oh man Reddit is something else right now talking about player choice, the game doesn't have romance, and my new favourite Japan celebrates Cloud and Aeriths wedding every year?????? That's truly insane to think that, she Canonically dies and there has never been Cloud and Aerith wedding events in the whole of Japan. help us all

You need help?

Just paste these pictures there.
Left is from June Bride 2017, and right is from June Bride 2019. They're from FF Airborne Brigade.
I'm sorry that there's not even Cloti in it but Zerith.

The Clerith fanservice I found from that game is Cloud & Aerith being Emperor & Empress on Hinamatsuri Event, so it's not June Bride.

 

[Xannis]

The discussion I had the person said the game favours Aerith if you play normally?

I assume you're referring to OG where Aerith starts off with more affection points than Tifa? Probably not the best take but when I learned about this mechanic (many years after I played the OG) and in looking at the story I always got the idea that the devs really did want players to get Aerith at the GS. I always thought they wanted you to get that date so that her subsequent death would be more impactful whether you perceived it to be romantic or not.

However, that opinion has always existed alongside the belief I've had that once the LS sequence happens you're meant to re-look at anything and everything that Cloud had done and said up to that point and re-evaluate and /or compare his actions after the fact. Meaning even if the GS date with Aerith had been full on slobbering romance what matters more to the story is what his post LS actions are because that's when we know he's back to his true self. His post LS actions seem to barely mention / think of Aerith at all. It can be hard to discuss because it's easy to accuse me of cherry picking things pre-LS that I might not like but I tend to think of it as if you have pre-LS Cloud doing something and post-LS Cloud doing something, then the post-LS action has the higher weight to it.

We'll see how it ages but I think Rebirth is trying to spell this pre/post LS Cloud out even clearer with the over the top violence scenes where he's basically channeling Sephiroth. Hoping we get some actual dialog of him saying something to the effect of "I hope you all know that wasn't me doing those things" to the gang after he wakes up.

 

[pxl_pushr]

I assume you're referring to OG where Aerith starts off with more affection points than Tifa? Probably not the best take but when I learned about this mechanic (many years after I played the OG) and in looking at the story I always got the idea that the devs really did want players to get Aerith at the GS. Not because it was romantic mind you. I always thought they wanted you to get that date so that her subsequent death would be more impactful.

Additionally, I've always felt that once the LS sequence happens you're meant to re-look at anything and everything that Cloud had done and said up to that point with a grain of salt. Meaning even if the GS date with Aerith had been full on slobbering romance what matters more to the story is what his post LS actions are because that's when we know he's back to his true self. His post LS actions seem to barely mention / think of Aerith at all.

I think what kinda trips people up is that, like you say, the LS should make you look back over the first half of the game with different eyes. Preferably via a second playthrough.

It’s interesting because you’re not just playing a story where the main character is an unreliable narrator, YOU are also being actively manipulated. They know when to use your jrpg genre knowledge against you so the reveals hit a bit harder.

 

[Yoru]

As for the affection points that favor Aerith, the devs have said several times that they had to artificially increase her parts because she DIES. As a result, she has far fewer interaction possibilities than the other characters, especially Tifa. There was never any notion of "the right route" or "the right way" to play.

Once again, 20 years of bullshit based on an internal system that is supposed to be invisible to the player. Because, yes, it's all just the developers' internal trickery to make the game work.

Nomura : As for the heroines, during development some people were of the opinion that compared to Tifa, Aerith has fewer scenes and didn’t really stand out, so we also increased her appearances.

Nojima: As a motif for them, Tifa is “the childhood friend who’s been with you since nursery school”, and Aerith is “the girl who transfers school mid-term and quickly leaves for another school.” Since she doesn’t have many scenes, you’ve got to make it so that the transfer student has a big impact. That was what I thought.

From FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania

 

[abzy1200]

That quote from Kitase that says something along the lines of "At the time, we thought it was an interesting idea to have the hero waver between the two heroines" I feel also trips people up regarding this stuff.

 

[Ryeleigh]

His post LS actions seem to barely mention / think of Aerith at all.

That's interesting because I recently played G.O.D.: Mezameyo to Yobu Koe ga Kikoe which was released in 1996. It also had a blonde soldier character who slept with his first (incidentally pink, lol) love interest, Ai, during their journey and then lost her. First of all, this blonde soldier took off immediately in a complete rage and didn't really stop until he'd killed the alien who'd killed Ai. The game also did a surprisingly good job of showing him thinking of Ai after her death; for example, you can talk to the character when he's asleep and he'd mutter about Ai. He also got a second love interest eventually but kept thinking of Ai until the end. Not to mention that other characters also commented on his feelings for Ai. Admittedly, my memories of OG are pretty vague by now but I'm pretty sure it didn't do anything similar?

I wasn't sure if I should spoiler that or not, but I opted to spoiler it just in case.

 

[pxl_pushr]

That's interesting because I recently played G.O.D.: Mezameyo to Yobu Koe ga Kikoe which was released in 1996. It also had a blonde soldier character who slept with his first (incidentally pink, lol) love interest, Ai, during their journey and then lost her. First of all, this blonde soldier took off immediately in a complete rage and didn't really stop until he'd killed the alien who'd killed Ai. The game also did a surprisingly good job of showing him thinking of Ai after her death; for example, you can talk to the character when he's asleep and he'd mutter about Ai. He also got a second love interest eventually but kept thinking of Ai until the end. Not to mention that other characters also commented on his feelings for Ai. Admittedly, my memories of OG are pretty vague by now but I'm pretty sure it didn't do anything similar?

I wasn't sure if I should spoiler that or not, but I opted to spoiler it just in case.

From what I can remember, Aerith doesn’t really come up again until Cosmo Canyon which leads into the second visit to FC with Buganhagan. That’s where we get lore about the White Materia.

I need to get to disc 2 on my OG playthrough. We have so much ground to cover in part 3

 

[Stiggie]

The discussion I had the person said the game favours Aerith if you play normally? Which makes no sense when there is choice in dialogue and Aeriths OG gold saucer date which they think means Cloud and Aerith are officially a couple because that is super romantic? When Cloud in OG barely responds and you get a choice at the end of only that date to say I don't enjoy spending time with you or it's not that when Aerith asks do you not like hanging out with me because it was awkward telling someone I'm trying to find the real you and bringing up Zack. Same people feel disgusted by Highwind HA happening after that date? Which you can get both and Tifa starts lower because you can overtake Aerith with affection before even meeting Aerith in OG. But yeah I don't know if in their childhood playing the game they think that OG date with Aerith was super romantic or something but watching it now it's quite sad and Cloud doesn't react to any of the dates really? Cause believe it or not he's not thinking about romance and dating

The whole "aeriths date is the default one" thing is such a red-herring, of all the dumb ckerith arguments this surely is the worst. Not only is the whole thing a huge "under the hood" fallacy, as I call it, but it wouldn't be relevant even if it were true. Even if aerith was the only date and 100% mandatory it would change NOTHING about the story. Incase they've forgotten, the story goes on after the date, other stuff happens. Not to mention the fact that a date is not a marriage, the date has zero relevance to who the love interest of the story is.

 

[Stiggie]

That's interesting because I recently played G.O.D.: Mezameyo to Yobu Koe ga Kikoe which was released in 1996. It also had a blonde soldier character who slept with his first (incidentally pink, lol) love interest, Ai, during their journey and then lost her. First of all, this blonde soldier took off immediately in a complete rage and didn't really stop until he'd killed the alien who'd killed Ai. The game also did a surprisingly good job of showing him thinking of Ai after her death; for example, you can talk to the character when he's asleep and he'd mutter about Ai. He also got a second love interest eventually but kept thinking of Ai until the end. Not to mention that other characters also commented on his feelings for Ai. Admittedly, my memories of OG are pretty vague by now but I'm pretty sure it didn't do anything similar?

I wasn't sure if I should spoiler that or not, but I opted to spoiler it just in case.

It did not no, after aeriths death she is essentially forgotten until its time to stop meteor

 

[Ryeleigh]

The whole "aeriths date is the default one" thing is such a red-herring, of all the dumb ckerith arguments this surely is the worst. Not only is the white thing a huge "under the hood" fallacy, as I call it, but it wouldn't be relevant even if it were true. Even if aerith was the only date and 100% mandatory it would change NOTHING about the story. Incase they've forgotten, the story goes on after the date, other stuff happens. Not to mention the fact that a date is not a marriage, the date has zero relevance to which the live interrest of the story is.

Not to mention didn't Aerith talk about her "ex-boyfriend" on all their dates? Which doesn't exactly make them romantic to me, lol.

It's kind of like that advice "if a guy starts bad-mouthing his ex immediately and in all the dates, take it as the red flag that it is and get out of there", lol.

And you know, I don't get this insistence that Cloud must've (romantically) loved Aerith. Like, you (general you) don't need that to ship him with her or any of the characters?

 

[abzy1200]

And you know, I don't get this insistence that Cloud must've (romantically) loved Aerith. Like, you (general you) don't need that to ship him with her or any of the characters?

They got to Mideel, and instead of realising there was more to Cloud than meets the eye, instead chose to grossly mischaracterise him. And now, we're here. To the point where if you google "Who does Cloud love?" you get a plethora of disingenuous takes and blatant lies.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Not to mention didn't Aerith talk about her "ex-boyfriend" on all their dates? Which doesn't exactly make them romantic to me, lol.

It's kind of like that advice "if a guy starts bad-mouthing his ex immediately and in all the dates, take it as the red flag that it is and get out of there", lol.

And you know, I don't get this insistence that Cloud must've (romantically) loved Aerith. Like, you (general you) don't need that to ship him with her or any of the characters?

Guy or Gal, positive or negative, your date bringing up the ex several times is a red flag, period. Like, even if it's like a widow, it's a sign they're not ready to move on yet.

 

[MissMDusk]

For anyone curious, apparently it was discovered since April how to get Cloud to say the "Of course" line rather than the "Because we're friends" line (JP ver.) in the dream date/sector 5 date.

To avoid the nakama line, you have to go on at least one date with Aerith, either in chp 8 or 12. Makes sense to me personally. And yeah, the implication that you can go on a date with Aerith in chp 8 and kiss Tifa in chp 12, and still avoid the nakama line is... lol.

Source

Edit: Unless this was already talked about, in that case, my bad! I just remembered the last time I asked how it was triggered, people didn't really know.

Edit 2: I might be misunderstanding the thread but I also think you have to get high affinity with all the characters as well as one date with Aerith? Then the mochiron line makes even more sense to me... As he cherishes all of his friends more, he becomes nicer and warmer. So the response changes depending on how much effort you put into developing each relationship with Cloud... Maybe.

And if that's the case, then I felt the whole "dating" mechanic kind off threw everyone and everything off. People would only aim for one person for the dates, rather than the devs intention to have everyone explore every relationship, to maybe unlock a "nicer" Cloud. Though again this might not be true at all lol.

 

[pxl_pushr]

Guy or Gal, positive or negative, your date bringing up the ex several times is a red flag, period. Like, even if it's like a widow, it's a sign they're not ready to move on yet.

As soon as CC revealed that her appearance in FF7 is based on Zack’s preferences, it was a sealed deal imo every time she said “it wasn’t serious” was her trying to convince herself of that. That’s why Elmyra fears her getting her heart broken again ( if it wasn’t serious, then why are you heartbroken? )

It’s interesting because in a lot of ways, this puts Aerith in the same shoes as Elmyra and adds to the good choice imo of how Elmyra acts towards Cloud in Remake. She sees what Aerith is getting mixed up in almost immediately.

I’m really hopeful they don’t do an affinity system in part 3. The story really doesn’t need it, and we’re witnessing the mess it can cause so nah no thanks. Just tell the story you want to tell and let people cope with it regardless.

 

[Ryushikaze]

For anyone curious, apparently it was discovered since April how to get Cloud to say the "Of course" line rather than the "Because we're friends" line (JP ver.) in the dream date/sector 5 date.

To avoid the nakama line, you have to go on at least one date with Aerith, either in chp 8 or 12. Makes sense to me personally. And yeah, the implication that you can go on a date with Aerith in chp 8 and kiss Tifa in chp 12, and still avoid the nakama line is... lol.

Source

Edit: Unless this was already talked about, in that case, my bad! I just remembered the last time I asked how it was triggered, people didn't really know.

Edit 2: I might be misunderstanding the thread but I also think you have to get high affinity with all the characters as well as one date with Aerith? Then the mochiron line makes even more sense to me... As he cherishes all of his friends more, he becomes nicer and warmer. So the response changes depending on how much effort you put into developing each relationship with Cloud... Maybe.

And if that's the case, then I felt the whole "dating" mechanic kind off threw everyone and everything off. People would only aim for one person for the dates, rather than the devs intention to have everyone explore every relationship, to maybe unlock a "nicer" Cloud. Though again this might not be true at all lol.

From my reading of that thread, it's the other way around- if you go on an Aerith date, Cloud Nakama's Aerith. That said, testing should be easy enough.

EDIT: Wait, no, I see the clarification down below. That thread is written in an odd way. Now I'm curious if the exact trigger is one date specifically or if you can get mochiron with two. I mean it doesn't change anything, Aerith always comes off that exchange feeling like she was rejected (Which she sort of was, since Cloud didn't even understand the question) and admits she doesn't even know what kind of like she feels for Cloud.

As soon as CC revealed that her appearance in FF7 is based on Zack’s preferences, it was a sealed deal imo every time she said “it wasn’t serious” was her trying to convince herself of that. That’s why Elmyra fears her getting her heart broken again ( if it wasn’t serious, then why are you heartbroken? )

It’s interesting because in a lot of ways, this puts Aerith in the same shoes as Elmyra and adds to the good choice imo of how Elmyra acts towards Cloud in Remake. She sees what Aerith is getting mixed up in almost immediately.

I’m really hopeful they don’t do an affinity system in part 3. The story really doesn’t need it, and we’re witnessing the mess it can cause so nah no thanks. Just tell the story you want to tell and let people cope with it regardless.

I mean, it vanished entirely in Disc 2 and 3 apart from the minor variance in the highwind scene, and the devs said "We only put it in because nostalgia obligations" so there's no point to add it into the third part of remake. Just go ham on the Under the Highwind sequence instead.

 

[MissMDusk]

From my reading of that thread, it's the other way around- if you go on an Aerith date, Cloud Nakama's Aerith. That said, testing should be easy enough.

EDIT: Wait, no, I see the clarification down below. That thread is written in an odd way. Now I'm curious if the exact trigger is one date specifically or if you can get mochiron with two. I mean it doesn't change anything, Aerith always comes off that exchange feeling like she was rejected (Which she sort of was, since Cloud didn't even understand the question) and admits she doesn't even know what kind of like she feels for Cloud.

Can I ask what question you're referring to? Do you mean when Aerith asks "next time?", because I thought Cloud understood she wanted to spend more time with him, but not her feelings. Not until she "confesses" (though she's uncertain about what "like" she carries), where his face, at least to me, clearly shows understanding in what she's saying, but doesn't reciprocate the feelings... At least that's how I understood it.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Can I ask what question you're referring to? Do you mean when Aerith asks "next time?", because I thought Cloud understood she wanted to spend more time with him, but not her feelings. Not until she "confesses" (though she's uncertain about what "like" she carries), where his face, at least to me, clearly shows understanding in what she's saying, but doesn't reciprocate the feelings... At least that's how I understood it.

Aerith asks the "next time" question, but I saw there being a lot of unsaid questions about what sort of next time it might be, and Cloud's response- either way- indicates he either didn't pick up on them or if he did he didn't consider them at all, so Aerith realizes where "You and I stand" with a sad look on her face. That's what I mean about the exchange feeling like she was rejected and Cloud not understanding the question Aerith was asking (without actually asking it). Then she confesses and he's confused and worried. I'm still not sure if he quite groks Aerith liked him, but if he does, you're right he doesn't seem to reciprocate.

 

[pxl_pushr]

Aerith asks the "next time" question, but I saw there being a lot of unsaid questions about what sort of next time it might be, and Cloud's response- either way- indicates he either didn't pick up on them or if he did he didn't consider them at all, so Aerith realizes where "You and I stand" with a sad look on her face. That's what I mean about the exchange feeling like she was rejected and Cloud not understanding the question Aerith was asking (without actually asking it). Then she confesses and he's confused and worried. I'm still not sure if he quite groks Aerith liked him, but if he does, you're right he doesn't seem to reciprocate.

I get the impression he never considers that her teasing was genuine flirting, similar to how he took Jessie’s flirting back in Remake although he’d grown far closer to Aerith by the end of Rebirth.

Never really considered her as an option so filed everything in the friendship folder of his brain.

Meanwhile, you’ve got Cloud and Tifa repairing their friendship after a small fight and it ends in them either nearly kissing eachother or full on kissing eachother.

I do think he catches on near the end of Aerith’s confession, but the face he makes says everything you need to know: that’s not where his head is at when it comes to her.