SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[pxl_pushr]

30th Anniv of the series concert.
Kinda funny if this is supposed to be evidence given TY is one of the sadder actual couples of the series, given the latest point in their continuity we know of is them broken up after Tidus's second death and ressurection.

Semi-related, it's so funny seeing Cleriths on twitter insisting that "Cloud didn't confirm mutual feelings with Tifa" in the GS date given we have like 11 different instances of it explicitly being said that Cloud and Tifa canonically do that under the highwind no matter what specific scenes you got in your playthrough.

A lot of bizarre takes in circulation recently, none of which worth a second thought since they drag down characters into being terrible/manipulative. Pure nonsense.

 

[Ryushikaze]

A lot of bizarre takes in circulation recently, none of which worth a second thought since they drag down characters into being terrible/manipulative. Pure nonsense.

Oh, absolutely nonsense, but also fascinating, because they reveal the mindset of the people making them and their actual priorities.

Not that those are always comprehensible, like the "Cloud kissed Tifa to not hurt her with a rejection" take I saw yesterday.

 

[Someonesbunny]

Oh, absolutely nonsense, but also fascinating, because they reveal the mindset of the people making them and their actual priorities.

Not that those are always comprehensible, like the "Cloud kissed Tifa to not hurt her with a rejection" take I saw yesterday.

I swear these are being recycled - wasn't this also a Remake take where "Cloud hugged Tifa to comfort her because he actually rejected her."

 

[imach0c0]

A recent topic of discussion I've seen recently is the the argument that Cloud shows jealousy in regards to Aerith. Below are some of the claims:

Remake - Evergreen Park
The "complex/complicated feelings that Cloud has when he thinks that Aerith may have taken someone else out on a date in the same way" (paraphrase from the FFVII Remake Ultimania plus) = jealousy.

Rebirth - Gongaga
Cloud calling Zack a loser is a jealous response to Aerith when she says that she maybe has feelings for Zack. Some claim the jealousy is canon because in OG, when you go to Gongaga, there is an option for the player to select jealous/envy (paraphrase) when you speak to Aerith (after going to Zack's house). Note: In JP, Cloud does not call Zack a loser. He says something along the lines of "I can't believe he would abandon Aerith"

Rebirth - Tifa Gondola
Cloud kisses Tifa because he is jealous of Zack and uses Tifa as a rebound

On a side note --
I believe Cloud's motion capture actor used the word "pure" when describing Cloud's intention when he asked Aerith if she still liked Zack. The counter argument to the validity of his comment is that he is not on the dev team, therefore what he says is irrelevant what is canon in the story.

What are yall's thoughts on this?

 

[abzy1200]

The counter argument to the validity of his comment is that he is not on the dev team, therefore what he says is irrelevant what is canon in the story.

What are yall's thoughts on this?

He's literally the guy who made the face and was directed on how to depict Cloud's body language in the moment. He has every right to state what was supposed to be portrayed here because he's literally the guy portraying it.

 

[pxl_pushr]

The dev note around the park scene in Remake is a bit too vague for me to comment on, but maybe jealousy plays a factor? Kinda weird considering they just met, but they did share a friendly moment before so it could be confusion on what her angle is.

As for Gongaga, nothing aligns with how Cloud expresses jealousy before or after that scene. All reads as a clumsy way to try and comfort her and he ends up getting both women upset with him.

A neat observation that’s popping up though is that as Tifa smooths things over and Cloud looks back, he could have realized that his own words about Zack ( either in EN or JP ) could be aimed back at him about Tifa. Makes sense to me, and it ties in neatly to their subplot started in Kalm.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I don't think the Park 'date' uses the word jealousy, just complicated feelings, and the feeling that a girl brought you to a place where she took other guys is gonna make you feel weird, ESPECIALLY if you're not actually intending to pursue her romantically.
It's also worth noting that said 'date' ends with Cloud seeing Tifa in the distance from behind and going to check up on her.

 

[imach0c0]

I don't think the Park 'date' uses the word jealousy, just complicated feelings, and the feeling that a girl brought you to a place where she took other guys is gonna make you feel weird, ESPECIALLY if you're not actually intending to pursue her romantically.
It's also worth noting that said 'date' ends with Cloud seeing Tifa in the distance from behind and going to check up on her.

The park "date" does not mention jealousy.

(Just in case it was not clear) I meant that there are claims that interpret complicated/complex feelings as jealousy.

 

[Ryushikaze]

The park "date" does not mention jealousy.

(Just in case it was not clear) I meant that there are claims that interpret complicated/complex feelings as jealousy.

I figured that was what you were doing, given the mention of the hilarious 'jealous rebound kiss' narrative, just wanted to weigh in on the park part.

 

[imach0c0]

As for Gongaga, nothing aligns with how Cloud expresses jealousy before or after that scene. All reads as a clumsy way to try and comfort her and he ends up getting both women upset with him.

What do you make of the argument that claims feelings of jealousy are canon to this scene as its in reference to the player option of "jealousy/envy" in OG?

 

[pxl_pushr]

What do you make of the argument that claims feelings of jealousy are canon to this scene as its in reference to the player option of "jealousy/envy" in OG?

Doesn’t really matter if it was an option in OG. Like many other options, it can easily have been removed and I strongly believe it’s been ignored.

Similar to the ability for Cloud to call Tifa his girlfriend in Remake, it got removed because it doesn’t align with the story properly.

 

[Sacky]

Oh man Reddit is something else right now talking about player choice, the game doesn't have romance, and my new favourite Japan celebrates Cloud and Aeriths wedding every year?????? That's truly insane to think that, she Canonically dies and there has never been Cloud and Aerith wedding events in the whole of Japan. help us all

 

[abzy1200]

What do you make of the argument that claims feelings of jealousy are canon to this scene as its in reference to the player option of "jealousy/envy" in OG?

I know this question isn't for me, but I'll jump in anyway.

It was removed for a reason. Many things have been gutted to minimalise misunderstandings. Cait Sith's fortune at the Temple of the Ancients is an example of this. It's just as Nojima said, the re;trilogy will not be have as much leeway for interpretation as the original did.

Oh man Reddit is something else right now talking about player choice, the game doesn't have romance, and my new favourite Japan celebrates Cloud and Aeriths wedding every year?????? That's truly insane to think that, she Canonically dies and there has never been Cloud and Aerith wedding events in the whole of Japan. help us all

Didn't Andrea's Japanese VA say "Everybody in Japan knows they (Cloud and Tifa) had sex"? Or something like that.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Oh man Reddit is something else right now talking about player choice, the game doesn't have romance, and my new favourite Japan celebrates Cloud and Aeriths wedding every year?????? That's truly insane to think that, she Canonically dies and there has never been Cloud and Aerith wedding events in the whole of Japan. help us all

I think this is a mix of misunderstanding the record keeper june bride event that had Cloud, Aerith and Tifa in it, and extreme over the top cope and denial.

That said, it's always frustrating to see "Player's choice" Cleriths because it's always always disengenuous.

 

[pxl_pushr]

I think this is a mix of misunderstanding the record keeper june bride event that had Cloud, Aerith and Tifa in it, and extreme over the top cope and denial.

That said, it's always frustrating to see "Player's choice" Cleriths because it's always always disengenuous.

“It’s up to the player” and “player choice” has quickly become the most frustrating to me. The “well, in my playthrough that’s not what happened” is an offshoot of it and it’s engineered to derail any type of real discussion.

 

[Ryushikaze]

“It’s up to the player” and “player choice” has quickly become the most frustrating to me. The “well, in my playthrough that’s not what happened” is an offshoot of it and it’s engineered to derail any type of real discussion.

We're definitely back on the "Mutual feelings being confirmed is OPTIONAL" train for the highwind sequence too, based on my interactions on reddit last night.
That and "Cloud is you, the player."
We have an extended sequence talking about finding Cloud's true self and how it all revolves around wanting to be noticed by and be a better man for Tifa, and they still throw this nonsense at us.

 

[abzy1200]

We have an extended sequence talking about finding Cloud's true self and how it all revolves around wanting to be noticed by and be a better man for Tifa, and they still throw this nonsense at us.

It's funny because that scene in and of itself is a confession, Ultimanias say that this is where Cloud informed Tifa he held favour for her. Highwind scene or not she still knows lmao.

That said, it's always frustrating to see "Player's choice" Cleriths because it's always always disengenuous.

"There's no canon love interest, it's player choice, except Cloud and Tifa are just friends in Advent Children and he left a life with her for Aerith instead"

And as a sidenote, I always hate when the affection scores themselves are brought up as if they actually have a place in this "debate". Like yeah, Aerith (50 points) loved Cloud almost twice as much as Tifa (30 points) did on Cloud and Aerith's first time meeting on Loveless Street, didn't she?

It's all just so dumb.

 

[Ryeleigh]

And as a sidenote, I always hate when the affection scores themselves are brought up as if they actually have a place in this "debate". Like yeah, Aerith (50 points) loved Cloud almost twice as much as Tifa (30 points) did on Cloud and Aerith's first time meeting on Loveless Street, didn't she?

And don't all actual player-choice games start at zero? Which makes me wonder why didn't FF7 characters start at zero? I guess Tifa having prior affection points for Cloud makes sense if the gameplay and story were interconnected but the affection points ended up being kind of arbitrary and meaningless anyway?

 

[Ryushikaze]

It's funny because that scene in and of itself is a confession, Ultimanias say that this is where Cloud informed Tifa he held favour for her. Highwind scene or not she still knows lmao.

Exactly. The feelings are revealed no matter who has what AV points. The only thing those change is how forward Cloud and Tifa are on acting on those feelings under the highwind, and even then, we know that they do confirm their feelings match under that scene.

"There's no canon love interest, it's player choice, except Cloud and Tifa are just friends in Advent Children and he left a life with her for Aerith instead"

Motte and Bailey argumentation, natch.

And as a sidenote, I always hate when the affection scores themselves are brought up as if they actually have a place in this "debate". Like yeah, Aerith (50 points) loved Cloud almost twice as much as Tifa (30 points) did on Cloud and Aerith's first time meeting on Loveless Street, didn't she?

It's all just so dumb.

The other thing they do is claim these determine Cloud's feelings for people... somehow. I guess calling Barret your boyfriend in Don Corneo's trial is a valid interpretation of the character. Oddly not that popular a ship, from what I know.

And don't all actual player-choice games start at zero? Which makes me wonder why didn't FF7 characters start at zero? I guess Tifa having prior affection points for Cloud makes sense if the gameplay and story were interconnected but the affection points ended up being kind of arbitrary and meaningless anyway?

I suspect the values were adjusted to give everyone a fighting chance, and that was easier than rebalancing all of the choices individually, especially given several are probably coded incorrectly.

 

[pxl_pushr]

And don't all actual player-choice games start at zero? Which makes me wonder why didn't FF7 characters start at zero? I guess Tifa having prior affection points for Cloud makes sense if the gameplay and story were interconnected but the affection points ended up being kind of arbitrary and meaningless anyway?

I don’t have any experience in dating sim games, but are you able to check affinity as you go along?

Using the affection points in FF7 as an argument fundamentally seems odd to me because it’s such a hidden stat, there’s no way it was designed with the intention of players being aware of it. Certainly more utility minded answers to why it’s set up hold more weight?

 

[Ryushikaze]

I don’t have any experience in dating sim games, but are you able to check affinity as you go along?

Using the affection points in FF7 as an argument fundamentally seems odd to me because it’s such a hidden stat, there’s no way it was designed with the intention of players being aware of it. Certainly more utility minded answers to why it’s set up hold more weight?

Yeah. Often the exact value is obscured, but you get a method to check your progress. In OG FF7 there's nothing. The actual numerical values of the affection mechanic are only known at all because because IIRC someone obsessively tracked the value changes on each answer using the PC version.

 

[Ryeleigh]

I don’t have any experience in dating sim games, but are you able to check affinity as you go along?

I guess I was thinking more of Dragon Age Origins which is the only game so far that I know of where the affection meter (or so to speak) is visible? I don't think it was visible in Mass Effect? And I'm not sure if Fire Emblem counts or how it counts the affection points since the -- oh dear, what to call it -- progression is only visible with CBAS support conversations? Then Hatoful Boyfriend was a sort of dating sim but I'm not sure how that worked. The Witcher, too, but I have no idea about that one. And I guess those are the only games with either affection mechanic or player choice that I remember off the top of my head?

Oh, wait. Getting vague memories of Breath of Fire 2 having visible affection points but that had nothing to do with player choices?

 

[Ryushikaze]

I guess I was thinking more of Dragon Age Origins which is the only game so far that I know of where the affection meter (or so to speak) is visible? I don't think it was visible in Mass Effect? And I'm not sure if Fire Emblem counts or how it counts the affection points since the -- oh dear, what to call it -- progression is only visible with CBAS support conversations? Then Hatoful Boyfriend was a sort of dating sim but I'm not sure how that worked. The Witcher, too, but I have no idea about that one. And I guess those are the only games with either affection mechanic or player choice that I remember off the top of my head?

Oh, wait. Getting vague memories of Breath of Fire 2 having visible affection points but that had nothing to do with player choices?

Witcher didn't have an AV system, just a couple of dip switch choices that determined Yen ending, Triss ending, girls pull one over on Geralt ending.
Fire Emblem's support systems were pretty trackable ever since FE4, at least you were given an indicator of when two units got the Koibito lock, and that was even before CBAS which came about in FE6. I think DA and ME had ways to check your affection. Dialogue options if not meters.
Also Witcher's an odd case because that's a case where there was a very canon romance in Ger/Yen in the books, but Triss got put forward in the games because CDPR were anxious about fucking up Yen, and yeah.
Also neither of them mind Geralt sleeping with other people, just each other.

And speaking of FE we do know a couple canonical pairings even in games where you can pick the unit's supports. Like Eliwood/ Ninian.

 

[Ryeleigh]

girls pull one over on Geralt ending.

To be honest, this sounds like a happy ending, lmao.

Fire Emblem's support systems were pretty trackable ever since FE4, at least you were given an indicator of when two units got the Koibito lock, and that was even before CBAS which came about in FE6.

And speaking of FE we do know a couple canonical pairings even in games where you can pick the unit's supports. Like Eliwood/ Ninian.

I think my first Fire Emblem was the one with Eliwood, Ninian, Lyn and Hector. And I have no idea which is it on the space-time continuum, lol. (Why are Japanese game series so long? )

And hey, I always felt that Eliwood/Ninian was canon even if their ending always made me feel so bad for Nils, lol. I also always picked Hector/Lyn since they felt natural to me.

Also Witcher's an odd case because that's a case where there was a very canon romance in Ger/Yen in the books, but Triss got put forward in the games because CDPR were anxious about fucking up Yen, and yeah.

Yeah, I actually ended up rather accidentally sleeping with Triss in the first game because I always pick the "nice" dialogue options and what do you know, the next thing Triss does is topple Geralt to a bed so I decided to just roll with it, lol. I have absolutely no knowledge of the books and I never made it past the second game so I can't say I cared either way. Though, I've seen people call Triss a rapist which was both enough of that fandom discourse for me and very funny when you consider that you can play Geralt like a serial killer in the first game.

 

[Ryushikaze]

To be honest, this sounds like a happy ending, lmao.

Geralt ends up tied to a bed and abandoned until Dandelion/ Jaskier comes and unties him.

I think my first Fire Emblem was the one with Eliwood, Ninian, Lyn and Hector. And I have no idea which is it on the space-time continuum, lol. (Why are Japanese game series so long? )

And hey, I always felt that Eliwood/Ninian was canon even if their ending always made me feel so bad for Nils, lol. I also always picked Hector/Lyn since they felt natural to me.

That's Blazing Blade, Number 7 in the series, prequel to Binding Blade, 6th in the series.
Also Hector Lyn hasn't been quite so officially confirmed, but it does get special treatment same as Eli/Nini does.

Yeah, I actually ended up rather accidentally sleeping with Triss in the first game because I always pick the "nice" dialogue options and what do you know, the next thing Triss does is topple Geralt to a bed so I decided to just roll with it, lol. I have absolutely no knowledge of the books and I never made it past the second game so I can't say I cared either way. Though, I've seen people call Triss a rapist which was both enough of that fandom discourse for me and very funny when you consider that you can play Geralt like a serial killer in the first game.

Triss was definitely taking advantage of Geralt's memories being missing but it's not like Geralt and Yen are the most virtuous souls in existence either.