SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Ryushikaze]

A lot of CA "merch" is just Cloud and Aerith merchandising sold separately. Ryu can probably infer better than what I can but there were a lot of lies spread by Western CAs to make people believe they absolutely were canon or seen as canon back then. As early as the beginning of the 2000's you had Itadaki street where CAs pretended the game was CA when it's a lot more CT.

In the case of Itadaki Street, the claims that the game "canonized" CA were literally based entirely on the fact that the two walk together in the opening sequence. The in game banter between the two mostly revolves around Tifa. Aerith gets flirty with a DQ8 character instead.

But yeah, a lot of the merch western CA's push as being exclusively Cloud x Aerith coded just isn't. Like, their best argument is the one pepsi bag that has CA and SR on it. There are some items that depict the two in iconic scenes- primarily Aerith's death- but there's also that for CT, and when it's not specific scenes, like for example, character figures with themed bases, It's Zack who matches bases with Aerith, not Cloud. He, naturally, matches with Tifa.

Another absurd claim involved the Artnia menu, which they claim only has "matching" Cloud and Aerith desserts and nothing Tifa related at all. Not only is this not true- It has a Yuffie one as well - but the entire cafe is Tifa themed. The fucking Napkins are 7th Heaven marked (The Cutlery is also Shinra company stamped) and the entire fucking kayfabe is that Tifa made all the food and the drinks for you.

Then there are the weird lies about Clerith parks and tiger cubs, and of course the infamous Wacdonald's interview.


Also if you want to open a massive can of worms we can talk about Dirge's marketing and merch.

If you knew how to analyse medium, the game absolutely told you it was CT that was the canon pairing. I got out of my first playthrough thinking that, and I was taken by the illusion of CA - even if I hated it lol. It's just that people absolutely refused what the game told them for some, have played rather young so didn't understand the game or have played only once and only have vague souvenirs.

When SE puts Cloud and Tifa with the other canon pairs on an Ultimania and people still deny that they are canon, then it's not on SE anymore I'm sorry.

And also specifically note that the date sequence can feature several of his companions, and ALSO also make a section specifically for examples of non-romantic love just to disambiguate and ALSO ALSO ALSO put the full text of the 'high' highwind scene as one of the four most impressive scenes in the game in the same Ulti....

Anyways, I can go on.
Oh yeah, talking about Cloud and Tifa's love, favor, relationship etc. all the fucking time.



Also, even "Figure it out for yourself" Nomura said as far back as 97 that the multiple date options were for the player to get more scenes with their faves, because if you leave it to just the plot, you're always stuck with Tifa.

This has been my rant. Maybe I'll come back and give a more coherent argument on why merch and marketing is at best, coincidentally correct and should be ignored at the best of times.

 

[Skilganon]

I meant for optional scenes. They could have decided to just not put them in the credits at all, give all the options equal weight. But the way it is now, people think the Aerith resolution and the Aerith Gold saucer date have some precedence over the alternatives. Is this intentional?

And I'm not asking from the perspective of a shipper, I'm asking as someone highly critical of SE's decisions.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Whatever "wrong" ideas you think a CA shipper may have, I look at it as a product of SE's messaging first and foremost.

I meant for optional scenes. They could have decided to just not put them in the credits at all, give all the options equal weight. But the way it is now, people think the Aerith resolution and the Aerith Gold saucer date have some precedence over the alternatives. Is this intentional?

And I'm not asking from the perspective of a shipper, I'm asking as someone highly critical of SE's decisions.

Look, the truth is that at some point shippers really ought to take responsibility for themselves instead of going around claiming that they were baited. There has always been a small fragment of shippers who want, nay, demand canon/fandom validation, no matter how improbable or how many times or how many ways the creators tell them "not happening", no matter how much they have to twist the canon, characters, marketing, interviews to fit their confirmation bias, at which point it really isn't about the ship. As an aside, it's honestly amazing how all of the "non-canon shippers who demand canon validation" have the exact same arguments regardless of ship and fandom.

But aside from FF7 and CA versus CT, do you know how many characters get shipped together? A lot of them aren't even in the same franchises? I hope I'm not coming off as condescending or anything, but I'm not sure if you get shipping?

I mean, if you start asking questions of "Why did SE decide to show Aerith and Cloud together (insert marketing or other auxiliary material) if it's not implicit confirmation of the ship?" then you really might as well start asking why they decided to give Aerith and Cloud any scenes together in the actual game? After all, that might give shippers the wrong idea, right? And if you start asking why have any scenes with Cloud and Aerith, you might as well start asking why have Aerith in the game at all? After all, clearly just her presence in a scene is going to give someone somewhere the wrong idea?

Also, notice what is not coming up in this conversation? What happens in the actual game.

And why is no one out there asking the real questions: why did SE give Sephiroth/Cloud shippers ship-bait, lol? Sephiroth's clone actually straddled Cloud which is more than Tifa OR Aerith got, lmao. Never mind the many scenes in which Sephiroth gets to whisper sweet nothings to Cloud's ear. The dude practically lives inside him.

When you tell someone to "Be okay with your fanon", I can't help but feel a little condescension. Every shipper wants validation in the work. Those with validation will always be seen as "more correct". Therefore I see SE's messaging as deliberately setting people up for disappointment.

There's nothing wrong with fanon (unless people start confusing their fanon with canon), lol. Fanon isn't a dirty word. And no, not every shipper wants validation because most shippers can separate canon, headcanon and fanon. Like... I have a total crack ship, I could make an essay about how it's a plausible and valid interpretation of canon, but it still wouldn't be canon. There was no actual intention in the canon for that ship but I still have fun with it.

I'm sorry, I really hope I don't sound annoying because it's difficult to convey tone in text, but it's these little asides that make me wonder if you actually get shipping?

Btw, I checked the Rebirth credits video because I'm not that far yet and I stopped when I realised that they're just showing the entire game, lol. Besides, the probable reason why they decided to put Aerith's scenes in the credits is that she died. Meaning that she's unlikely to be in the next game as much (since I think she and Zack! will still have a role to play in Part 3).

 

[Hellenic]

Let me ask a question: Why do you think the devs decided to put the Cloud and Aerith moments in the credits?

Well the play part leads up to the singing part so it makes sense to use that one. Also lack of Aerith scenes in the game in general perhaps so gotta pick more of them to represent her character while they still can .

 

[Hellenic]

Honestly it would've been weird if Aerith barely got scenes in the credits considering this is her most likely last major appearance in the trilogy.
Next games credits will probably have a lot more of Tifa instead by nature of how much of a role she's gonna play in there, so they will likely be picking a lot of those scenes to throw in there.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Yeah, sorry for the confusion, thanks for clearing that up some Eerie and Melodic. At the concerts

Spoiler

the date is used for NPTK and the flower quest for Hollow. Depending on the venue/country/time slot there were additional scenes like beach scene and dream date also used (along with the GS date, Cloud with the flower petal, etc) for NPTK.

However I wasn't saying that equates to Hollow being all about CA, I was trying to say it might be multifaceted xD

 

[Hellenic]

I feel like Hollow being a CA song came about when people were thinking this game was some kinda time travel story this time where Cloud meets Aerith for the second time and tries to save her this time, but i always saw the song as being about Cloud himself and his hollowed out self, with some possible ties to Zack whose death pushed him into the hollowed self partially.

That said i don't really try to read too much into songs in the first place and i find it dumb that people have to use them to validate anything in the first place.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

For fandom and kind of real life scenarios too—I find that justifying irrational reactions by reflecting it onto something that, on its own inspection, is completely reasonable and SHOULDN'T beget that reaction, doesn't work out logically. A kind of "they were asking for it" mentality that just isn't fair.

And yeah, life isn't fair and there's a conversation about accepting that people will act a certain way, so you can try to anticipate that. Do and Don'ts. But like as Ryeleigh expresses—where does this end, and honestly, what justifies the line where it needs to begin? Where it goes from "you shouldn't have to do that" to "its your fault"? We're talking about media, but just as well, it applies.

It overcomplicates, gives more leneincy to bad behavior, and in my experience at least, it hardly makes for productive, complete learning experience because it has to be sacrificed to justify the bad take. No breathing room. That's how you get uninformed localization conspiracies, insisting even post-CC Zack is a "womanizer", Cloud "dislikes" Aerith, and Cloud and Tifa were JUST "family friends".

 

[Ryeleigh]

And yeah, life isn't fair and there's a conversation about accepting that people will act a certain way, so you can try to anticipate that. Do and Don'ts. But like as Ryeleigh expresses—where does this end, and honestly, what justifies the line where it needs to begin? Where it goes from "you shouldn't have to do that" to "its your fault"? We're talking about media, but just as well, it applies.

I'm not exactly sure when the shift happened but creators used to give fan service for all characters and ships. Like, these little nods and winks and jokes. And people took them exactly as they were supposed to: as fun little crumbs that they could use as fuel for their fanfics and imagination, lol. But then at some point, certain shippers started thinking that these fun little crumbs were totally secret clues that only they could decipher and indicated where the story was headed. You know, instead of looking at canon comprehensively. And because rarely canon is actually on these shippers' side, they started thinking that everything outside of canon was confirmation for their ship too, including but not limited to marketing, merchandise, other completely unrelated stories, etc. Like, these people exist and there is nothing a creator can do to stop them from existing. Aside from maybe obliterating their own work or never creating it in the first place?

Not an exact analogy but at some point, it's a bit like blaming the victim of stalking for the stalker constructing an entire fantasy where she or he reciprocates.

Harems still give fan service and nice moments to practically all the characters but that doesn't mean that all of them get together or that all of them even have equal feelings. Even non-harem stories have messy relationships of characters liking, disliking and ignoring each other. But that doesn't mean or indicate that all of them will be canon.

To be honest, when I think about the nitty-gritty of ship war discourse I get this feeling that people either haven't consumed a whole lot of fiction. Or they're being deliberately disingenuous, lol.

And to sort of bring this more specifically back to FF7, the only thing I would classify as deliberate bait was the theme song trailer. Otherwise, SE is pretty clear about where the story is headed and gives everyone nice moments along the way?

 

[GamerSkull]

And to sort of bring this more specifically back to FF7, the only thing I would classify as deliberate bait was the theme song trailer. Otherwise, SE is pretty clear about where the story is headed and gives everyone nice moments along the way?

Yeah, that trailer is the only time I would classify that they deliberately baited CA fans. Especially since a whole lot of them were super smug afterwards.

 

[Eerie]

Yeah, sorry for the confusion, thanks for clearing that up some Eerie and Melodic. At the concerts

Spoiler

the date is used for NPTK and the flower quest for Hollow. Depending on the venue/country/time slot there were additional scenes like beach scene and dream date also used (along with the GS date, Cloud with the flower petal, etc) for NPTK.

However I wasn't saying that equates to Hollow being all about CA, I was trying to say it might be multifaceted xD

There's a remixed version of Hollow playing in the zone when you approach Midgar, IIRC. Which makes sense since it's there that it plays in Remake too.

Yeah, that trailer is the only time I would classify that they deliberately baited CA fans. Especially since a whole lot of them were super smug afterwards.

I saw it as a love message to Aerith who was about to die personally. I saw it and my first reaction was "oh Aerith, you're so going to die", it was very obvious to me. But knowing Nomura made that trailer, I wouldn't be surprised if he trolled CAs on the side for a bit, he's known to dislike some of them since they sent him death threats for over 2 decades.

 

[Ryeleigh]

I saw it as a love message to Aerith who was about to die personally. I saw it and my first reaction was "oh Aerith, you're so going to die", it was very obvious to me. But knowing Nomura made that trailer, I wouldn't be surprised if he trolled CAs on the side for a bit, he's known to dislike some of them since they sent him death threats for over 2 decades.

Maybe not the whole trailer but the "omg! they are going to kiss!" trip, lol. And what happened in the actual game? They were both so weirded out that they had to sit in a shaken silence for a second, lol.

And yikes at the death threats.

 

[Skilganon]

In the whole scheme of things, the Cloud/Aerith optional scenes being in the credits seems a minor thing. But nonetheless, a decision was made.

The credits in Rebirth has scenes taken out after Aerith's death. They want you to look at the credits, it's not an afterthought.

I don't presume to know why. Maybe I'm being paranoid and cynical to an extreme. A lot of people seem to think of the Aerith dates being more canon, or at least more relevant to the story than the others. And we could say, "Why would you read so much into the credits?" And yet someone, Nomura maybe, decided to do the credits this way. I'm curious about what their thought process was.

In a recent interview, Nomura stated that he "didn't want to get peoples' hopes up" by introducing the concept of defying Fate to Remake. Like a lot of other things he's said over the past 20+ years, it smells like BS. You can't have worked on this series for that long and not suspect people will think you can revive Aerith if you start talking about defying Fate. So why introduce it at all?

Either they're playing with people or they are extraordinarily terrible at managing the expectations of their fans.

 

[Eerie]

Because devs think about characters' arcs, relationships, and characterisations. The ending credits are not for Cloud, they're for AERITH. To Aerith her relationship with Cloud was important so they put scenes. They took off some of the ending scenes because it was not her. Credits are also for her fans because they won't see her as much in p3. She will still be there and important, but much less present. I expect credits for p3 to show a lot of Tifa and CT scenes too. Because p3 will be Tifa's game just as much as Rebirth was Aerith's game.

And the devs keep saying again and again that the Re-trilogy will be like the OG in terms opf narrative, but it hasn't stopped fans from pretending they were lying... when they weren't. Honestly theorybros are hilarious on this, they've pretended that there were going to be a lot of huge changes in the story for Rebirth and in the end it's CT fans who were right when we kept saying "hey it's the same story happening, the devs even said so several times!" I even before the game was released had made a post in reddit in answer to another how I thought the Zack world was inside the Lifestream and got mocked because obviously it was totally an AU where Zack survived. Lol. So whatever, fans will believe whatever they want to and are hyped up for by a certain type of fans (may they be shippers or theorybros).

At some point the devs haven't lied for p1, neither for p2, you got to trust their words and what they put in game. They cannot feed you MORE than what they are doing already.

Edit: typos

 

[null]

If I wanted Cloud with Aerith, I would be pissed at ReTrilogy. Why are Cloud and Tifa constantly in each other's arms, touching each other, alone with each other, reaching for each other, yelling each other's names, invading each other's personal spaces?

Why'd they change the flower scene so Cloud always gives it to Tifa, and make a point of Aerith noticing it later?

Why does Aerith say "you can't fall in love with me, it's not real?" in her own affection scene?

Why does she pull Cloud on dates just to remind him how special Tifa is?

Why am I seeing Aerith's old flame being a knight in shining armor and holding her? Why doesn't Tifa's old flame (oh wait)

Why is Tifa lifting her shirt up to show Cloud her scar, even though she's pissed at him, as if he's close enough to show something that intimate?

Why does Tifa get the only kiss scene, when this is Aerith's last chance for one?

What the hell is with up with "I like you, but there's different kinds of like" when, once again, she's saying goodbye?

Why did Cloud move in with a woman he doesn't love, but is clearly madly in love with him?

Why can't I have a love story that doesn't make Cloud and Aerith into gaping assholes?

You have to ignore ALL that and more to get to the Rebirth credits to get the Illuminati code proving Aerith is the official canon love interest. Why can't they just show that and end things with Tifa unambiguously? They had no problem taking the Jessie ship out back and shooting it. (Well, to be fair, they might have had a little outside motivation.)

In a recent interview, Nomura stated that he "didn't want to get peoples' hopes up" by introducing the concept of defying Fate to Remake. Like a lot of other things he's said over the past 20+ years, it smells like BS. You can't have worked on this series for that long and not suspect people will think you can revive Aerith if you start talking about defying Fate. So why introduce it at all?

Either they're playing with people or they are extraordinarily terrible at managing the expectations of their fans.

Honestly, you have a point. We literally kill Fate and end with "The Unknown Journey Will Continue" but then "don't worry, we're not drastically changing things". Um... if you're not messing with fans, why not just end the game with that line instead. I guess it doesn't sound as dramatic.

 

[Skilganon]

It's not the content of the Retrilogy I'm concerned about. Obviously the devs are developing the CT relationship in ways we haven't seen before. My concern is mainly about what the devs say in interviews and the messaging surrounding the games. I've never been in their position, perhaps it is extremely stressful and you're pulled in all sorts of directions. Some part of me thinks the baiting is deliberate.

 

[null]

It's not the content of the Retrilogy I'm concerned about. Obviously the devs are developing the CT relationship in ways we haven't seen before. My concern is mainly about what the devs say in interviews and the messaging surrounding the games. I've never been in their position, perhaps it is extremely stressful and you're pulled in all sorts of directions. Some part of me thinks the baiting is deliberate.

Yeah that wasn't aimed at you. It's for the people who miss the plot because they were too busy crawling through the end credits with a magnifying glass going "a-HA!!!"

 

[Eerie]

It's not the content of the Retrilogy I'm concerned about. Obviously the devs are developing the CT relationship in ways we haven't seen before. My concern is mainly about what the devs say in interviews and the messaging surrounding the games. I've never been in their position, perhaps it is extremely stressful and you're pulled in all sorts of directions. Some part of me thinks the baiting is deliberate.

But what do they say? They always said since REMAKE that it was going to follow the OG beats. Fans did not want to believe. Nojima, Nomura talked about the CT relationship and highlighted the importance of that relationship, before REMAKE and REBIRTH respectively. And trust me, to get NOMURA to talk about this kind of thing... CT fans were really really hyped.

And they talked about much more actually but very little was heard. It's the fact that people only focused on Aerith's death that made the PR until well into January a disaster, because the devs thought we wanted to hear about it more - but no, a lot of players were exhausted by this PR. That's the only thing we can really say the devs went too far with, honestly. The rest of their statements is on par with everything they delivered.

 

[Dr Frasier Crane]

The key marketing tagline for this game was: “DEFY FATE TOGETHER”!

They’re messing with us, man!

Spoiler: Hmm

To be a bit more serious though: wherever the final game takes us, there’s only three outcomes for the fandom conceivable at this point. Group A gets shafted; Group B gets shafted; or everyone ends up with a bitter taste in their mouths because nothing was clarified.

 

[pxl_pushr]

The key marketing tagline for this game was: “DEFY FATE TOGETHER”!

They’re messing with us, man!

Spoiler: Hmm

To be a bit more serious though: wherever the final game takes us, there’s only three outcomes for the fandom conceivable at this point. Group A gets shafted; Group B gets shafted; or everyone ends up with a bitter taste in their mouths because nothing was clarified.

I mean, I personally like the idea that they recreated similar attempts for the game to manipulate and misdirect your expectations in ways completely unique to itself ( though the full execution has yet to be seen ).

Not everyone will appreciate it, and I can already see the angry posts and YT videos about how SE lied because the game about misinformation, mistaken identity, and subtle manipulation… manipulated them.

The look back on all this is definitely going to be entertaining, that’s for sure.

 

[Ryushikaze]

It is not on SE that some people are fucking stupid.

I encountered someone- today- who thinks Cloud and Tifa run an orphanage in Advent Children because he didn't understand that when Rufus talks about Cloud taking care of orphans, he means Denzel and Marlene.

This fandom is full of people who are grossly media illiterate, and some who are just plain illiterate beyond that.

 

[Skilganon]

I thought Cloud and Tifa ran an orphanage until I watched AC for a second time. I think I just made that association because protagonists in a lot of media from East Asian countries often start helping orphans when they're not fighting bad guys. Aerith does work at the orphanage in sector 5 in her spare time. Tifa also looked after Marlene. I don't think it's that far-fetched of an idea. I've seen much worse takes.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I thought Cloud and Tifa ran an orphanage until I watched AC for a second time. I think I just made that association because protagonists in a lot of media from East Asian countries often start helping orphans when they're not fighting bad guys. Aerith does work at the orphanage in sector 5 in her spare time. Tifa also looked after Marlene. I don't think it's that far-fetched of an idea. I've seen much worse takes.

It's not the idea that someone might misunderstand that on first viewing. It's the pigheaded obstinance to continue insisting on it in spite of the evidence that I'm talking about. The fandom made a mistake and they're refusing to admit it.

That's not on SE at this point.

 

[Ryeleigh]

It's not the idea that someone might misunderstand that on first viewing. It's the pigheaded obstinance to continue insisting on it in spite of the evidence that I'm talking about. The fandom made a mistake and they're refusing to admit it.

That's not on SE at this point.

Don't you know that if you're consistently wrong for years then obviously it's someone else's fault?

Shaking my head at y'all. No wonder you're all mean Clotis.

Joking, lol.

 

[pxl_pushr]

It's not the idea that someone might misunderstand that on first viewing. It's the pigheaded obstinance to continue insisting on it in spite of the evidence that I'm talking about. The fandom made a mistake and they're refusing to admit it.

That's not on SE at this point.

Or that you’re somehow owed the story they fooled you into thinking it was: a sequel retelling where a certain character WILL live and alter the whole course of the story you wanted remade.

It’s the exact same feeling as someone who thought they were morally/ethically wronged when Aerith died in the original game. Exact same techniques, different target. People (me included I’ll admit) fell for it again.

Some people see it, laugh and respect it. Others see it, deny it, and triple down.

This story is different, it’s just not different in the way some people wanted and that’s their real issue. Btw, not talking about people put off by the more confusing stuff surrounding the Whispers. I think they’re at least open and honest about what they’re put off by.