SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Maidenofwar]

I'm just quietly enjoying the CA goodies including "the pleasure he felt at spending time with Aerith" and the time they spend with each other being so "precious" building between them (this because it's been a prevalent thing on social media for some CTs to go on about how annoyed Cloud is by Aerith, like he could barely stand her and couldn't wait to get away from her), and that Cloud's heart raced while with Aerith. Oh yeah and his emotional turmoil at the thought of Aerith on a similar date with someone else. Also their c14 translation. Good times.

The CT thing is -only- a "dunk" if you think of CT as an ideal, perfect and flawless. In game it's heart warming when Cloud finally hugs Tifa but the build up was still a bit awkward to some as Cloud took his time to comfort her. Look at it this way, if Tifa was comforted by the hug in the end it still culminates in heart warming.

Like I remember a while back the discourse over the "dysfunctional" thing. Well the whole point of CT (imo) is they have a lot of growing to do. That journey has ups and downs, there are sometimes breakdowns in communications or perhaps things are communicated more clumsily than wanted. Even in part 3 I expect a break down in communications and some distance between them for a while. It's not like CA is without tension.

 

[Eerie]

And I don't know if it's a translation issue or the original Japanese, but why would you compare it to a one-night stand? When they're hugging each other for comfort after having lost everything? Again? After Shinra did two massacres? Like??? Unless it's a reference to their "one-night stand" at the end of the world?

The Japanese indeed has a sexual subtext, but it's more that he felt he crossed a line.

We've known that since the beginning, the translation is terrible yeah but what makes me laugh is that it also straight up says he has feelings for Tifa lmao. TurquoiseHammer's translation of that bit is great BTW, I remember Peko praised it.

What it also shows is that line from 2K gils... where Cloud simply wants to become a special person to Tifa, her hero, and he felt he achieved that that night. And it's still something he wants to be entering Rebirth, as Nojima reminded us.

There is a lot of growth needed from the moment we meet Cloud in Remake until the end of p3, and he's growing up fast. It's good that he makes mistakes, because he learns from them: if you look at the reunion flower he offered to Tifa trying to impress her (it's his core character) to CoT where he brings her back rare vegetables she loves to cook, there are a lot of hints through Remake and Rebirth about this particular growth and it is extremely sweet.

 

[Ryeleigh]

The CT thing is -only- a "dunk" if you think of CT as an ideal, perfect and flawless. In game it's heart warming when Cloud finally hugs Tifa but the build up was still a bit awkward to some as Cloud took his time to comfort her. Look at it this way, if Tifa was comforted by the hug in the end it still culminates in heart warming.

It's not that, at least for me.

It's that the hug happens right after Shinra has massacred Sector Seven plates. Tifa and Cloud as well have lost everything again. She's crying her heart out and Cloud finally pulls himself together enough to comfort her (and himself, I imagine). Like, it's supposed to be about tragedy and comfort, not even necessarily romance, because I don't think there's anything inherently romantic about comforting a person in grief.

So I'm honestly just wondering what was the actual thought process of comparing that moment to a one-night stand of all things, lol?

The Japanese indeed has a sexual subtext, but it's more that he felt he crossed a line.

Right, I remember that. That makes more sense to me than outright comparing it to a one-night stand, lol.

 

[null]

I feel like the appropriate word is "tryst" not one-night stand.

Yeah, it's a dunk. The kiss was a dunk. The Highwind was a dunk. The Lifestream was a dunk. Koi_bito was a dunk. The NBA All-Star weekend ain't got nothing on Tifa.

IMO that's a realistic reaction for Cloud to have. According to Nojima that is Real Cloud, IIRC, and that moment is everything Real Cloud wanted in life. He's made it. He's the man Tifa can turn to in her time of need, not to mention having her in his arms in the middle of the night. Real Cloud is a teenager after all, even with noble intentions, I'd be more surprised if he didn't feel all that hitting him like a truck.

 

[Dr Frasier Crane]

To boil it down to its simplest elements, the hug scene in Remake is about one friend in emotional distress, being clumsily comforted physically by another friend who is not experienced in such matters.

Are Cloud and Tifa an item after the hug? Absolutely not. Have they closed some of the distance between each other? Absolutely yes. It’s as much progress as they can make at that point in time without deviating too much from the original story.

To be honest, if we weren’t already beyond part 2 of the trilogy at this point, then I might be a little dispirited by this Ultimania text. However, as we are now post the Gold Saucer dates, I’m not really sweating it.

This Ultimania text was produced in 2021, as I understand it. Well in 2024, the creative team deemed it appropriate to completely transform the Tifa Gold Saucer date from a moment of awkward mis-connection, to a moment romance, initiated by Cloud of all people. That is an unsubtle statement of intent from my perspective that is clearly setting up the direction of travel. Why escalate the romance between Cloud and Tifa this early in the story, if the writers are only going to clumsily pull back from it later? As far as I’m aware, they’re not going to heavily deviate from the text of the Lifestream sequence in part 3 - if anything, the writers have endeavoured to better foreshadow it across this multi part series.

(I should note that I am only at the beginning of chapter 13 after all these months and have been completely diverted by the Silent Hill 2 remake, so if there is material that sinks my confidence awaiting me in the final chapters, I’m not aware of it yet!)

 

[redoak77]

To boil it down to its simplest elements, the hug scene in Remake is about one friend in emotional distress, being clumsily comforted physically by another friend who is not experienced in such matters.

Are Cloud and Tifa an item after the hug? Absolutely not. Have they closed some of the distance between each other? Absolutely yes. It’s as much progress as they can make at that point in time without deviating too much from the original story.

To be honest, if we weren’t already beyond part 2 of the trilogy at this point, then I might be a little dispirited by this Ultimania text. However, as we are now post the Gold Saucer dates, I’m not really sweating it.

This Ultimania text was produced in 2021, as I understand it. Well in 2024, the creative team deemed it appropriate to completely transform the Tifa Gold Saucer date from a moment of awkward mis-connection, to a moment romance, initiated by Cloud of all people. That is an unsubtle statement of intent from my perspective that is clearly setting up the direction of travel. Why escalate the romance between Cloud and Tifa this early in the story, if the writers are only going to clumsily pull back from it later? As far as I’m aware, they’re not going to heavily deviate from the text Lifestream sequence in part 3 - if anything, the writers have endeavoured to better foreshadow it across this multi part series.

(I should note that I am only at the beginning of chapter 13 after all these months and have been completely diverted by the Silent Hill 2 remake, so if there is material that sinks my confidence awaiting me in the final chapters, I’m not aware of it yet!)

I see what you mean. I still think it would’ve been better to show it on screen than explain in on text, in a book, a good four years after the fact.

 

[Skilganon]

Cleriths are trying to spin it like Cloud's internal monologue is "Haha, this bitch is in love with me. She doesn't know I only want her for her body. A cool SOLDIER doesn't give a f*ck about women. I've scored big time."

It's more like, "OMG I'm hugging Tifa, OMG she's relying on me for emotional support, is this what it's like to HAVE SEX? Am I a cool SOLDIER yet?"

 

[Ryushikaze]

Yeah, the "like a one night stand" is about Cloud getting way too excited about this and squeezing too hard in said excitement. IIRC the Japanese phrase is "midnight mistake" and it's about letting your feelings get out of control and you do something you aren't ready for yet, but don't exactly regret.

It's saying Cloud tried his best to console Tifa, but he got a bit too excited about being the one to get to console Tifa that he screwed up a little.

 

[ForceStealer]

As usual I couldn't care less about any LTD implications, but I can't say I like that reading even just for Cloud's character. I read him hugging her at all, as well as too tightly, as his cool-guy persona dropping, not being the reason for it.
That he hesitates to hug her is due to wishing to maintain the persona/awkwardness, but giving in due to, yes, wanting to have hugged and consoled her all those years ago, but also from his own (decidedly unprocessed) grief over Nibelheim. Thus causing him to squeeze even tighter.

Imma stick with that one To make it about him just missing the mark on cool-guy-ness takes a lot of meaning out of the scene, imo.

 

[Ryushikaze]

As usual I couldn't care less about any LTD implications, but I can't say I like that reading even just for Cloud's character. I read him hugging her at all, as well as too tightly, as his cool-guy persona dropping, not being the reason for it.
That he hesitates to hug her is due to wishing to maintain the persona/awkwardness, but giving in due to, yes, wanting to have hugged and consoled her all those years ago, but also from his own (decidedly unprocessed) grief over Nibelheim. Thus causing him to squeeze even tighter.

Imma stick with that one To make it about him just missing the mark on cool-guy-ness takes a lot of meaning out of the scene, imo.

I don't think it's about him missing the mark on being a cool guy, but that he has a part of himself that's excited just about getting to be there for Tifa that gets too excited and he forgets himself. He's not a jackass, he's just incredibly awkward around his crush while trying to be there for her.

 

[Eerie]

Yeah as I said becoming Tifa's hero, someone special to her has been his core character since the promise and probably even before that. So basically it's a misstep, but also it allows him to grow - a much needed growth! I personally feel that since the beginning of Remake, we are seeing Cloud being really young and trying hard to grow and learn as a person throughout the two first games.

For example, as I mentioned earlier, take the flower. He gifted it to Tifa, trying to impress her (using Zack's technic) instead of wanting to please her first, and when she noticed that it wasn't like him to do that, he lied to her, which leads to her resolution where she is disappointed that she found out it primarily came frome Aerith. This isn't about being jealous, this is about the gift not being a thoughtful gift from Cloud for her, something special. I am pretty sure that the girls talked about it in Kalm, hence Aerith's words towards Cloud in Under Junon (I'm also pretty sure the director got the tone of the scene wrong because the English reads too mean compared to the JP, which led to a very awkward scene in EN).

But later, we have Tifa in Gongaga actually really wanting to cook those rare mushrooms... and in CoT, Cloud brings her rare veggies for her to cook, which makes her really happy. I don't know if you can see it, but it's actually an incredibly sweet growth from Cloud who begins Remake as a 16 years old boy in his head who really wants to impress the girl he loves, until CoT where you see him being thoughtful about what Tifa would actually want as a gift. Sure she'd like flowers, but she gets things even more special, because she actually wants that over flowers.

In comparison, the misstep in the hug is the same kind; we see him reacts a bit too much like a teen, but he grows more and more, learns more and more until he can be there for her in Nibelheim, the reactor and the GS date, answering her trouble every time she needs him. That's also sweet!

 

[pxl_pushr]

Yeah as I said becoming Tifa's hero, someone special to her has been his core character since the promise and probably even before that. So basically it's a misstep, but also it allows him to grow - a much needed growth! I personally feel that since the beginning of Remake, we are seeing Cloud being really young and trying hard to grow and learn as a person throughout the two first games.

For example, as I mentioned earlier, take the flower. He gifted it to Tifa, trying to impress her (using Zack's technic) instead of wanting to please her first, and when she noticed that it wasn't like him to do that, he lied to her, which leads to her resolution where she is disappointed that she found out it primarily came frome Aerith. This isn't about being jealous, this is about the gift not being a thoughtful gift from Cloud for her, something special. I am pretty sure that the girls talked about it in Kalm, hence Aerith's words towards Cloud in Under Junon (I'm also pretty sure the director got the tone of the scene wrong because the English reads too mean compared to the JP, which led to a very awkward scene in EN).

But later, we have Tifa in Gongaga actually really wanting to cook those rare mushrooms... and in CoT, Cloud brings her rare veggies for her to cook, which makes her really happy. I don't know if you can see it, but it's actually an incredibly sweet growth from Cloud who begins Remake as a 16 years old boy in his head who really wants to impress the girl he loves, until CoT where you see him being thoughtful about what Tifa would actually want as a gift. Sure she'd like flowers, but she gets things even more special, because she actually wants that over flowers.

In comparison, the misstep in the hug is the same kind; we see him reacts a bit too much like a teen, but he grows more and more, learns more and more until he can be there for her in Nibelheim, the reactor and the GS date, answering her trouble every time she needs him. That's also sweet!

Equivalent to Cloud losing the 1v1 at the end of Remake. He’s not where he needs to be in his growth as a character to fulfill his goals.

If his primary drivers are to be an emotional and physical support for Tifa, then he’s going to be clumsy and ill equipped to some degree at the beginning.

As you said though, the important bit is that he grows into a better place as soon as Gongaga. I found it interesting how Cloud’s confession to Tifa didn’t even answer her initial question in Kalm. He instead answers the bigger question that includes that answer: he’s “degenerating”, it’s messing with his memory, and it scares him that he feels like he’s losing himself.

Looking back at Remake with Rebirth in hand is actually enriching for the characters. You really see how they’ve taken steps forward, even Sephiroth levels up his gaslighting!

 

[Ryushikaze]

Yeah as I said becoming Tifa's hero, someone special to her has been his core character since the promise and probably even before that. So basically it's a misstep, but also it allows him to grow - a much needed growth! I personally feel that since the beginning of Remake, we are seeing Cloud being really young and trying hard to grow and learn as a person throughout the two first games.

For example, as I mentioned earlier, take the flower. He gifted it to Tifa, trying to impress her (using Zack's technic) instead of wanting to please her first, and when she noticed that it wasn't like him to do that, he lied to her, which leads to her resolution where she is disappointed that she found out it primarily came frome Aerith. This isn't about being jealous, this is about the gift not being a thoughtful gift from Cloud for her, something special. I am pretty sure that the girls talked about it in Kalm, hence Aerith's words towards Cloud in Under Junon (I'm also pretty sure the director got the tone of the scene wrong because the English reads too mean compared to the JP, which led to a very awkward scene in EN).

Yeah, the JP line comes across as Aerith upset on Tifa's behalf for Cloud not giving the gift with enough thoughfulness behind it.

 

[redoak77]

As usual I couldn't care less about any LTD implications, but I can't say I like that reading even just for Cloud's character. I read him hugging her at all, as well as too tightly, as his cool-guy persona dropping, not being the reason for it.
That he hesitates to hug her is due to wishing to maintain the persona/awkwardness, but giving in due to, yes, wanting to have hugged and consoled her all those years ago, but also from his own (decidedly unprocessed) grief over Nibelheim. Thus causing him to squeeze even tighter.

Imma stick with that one To make it about him just missing the mark on cool-guy-ness takes a lot of meaning out of the scene, imo.

Right?!

And say what you want about the translation and missing context or whatever; it sounds rough and they went with it and put it on paper.

 

[Eerie]

Well it seems that they translated the Ulti with AI, so it explains a lot of things also I’m guessing fans did a better job lol. When I saw the translation I illustrated said it must be AI generated, looks like I was right.

Edit: x.com

 

[Skilganon]

I don't think the use of AI makes the translation worthless. To me, there's not much difference from the fan translations that were floating around a couple years ago. Clerith blogs had already been using the description of the CT hug to make Cloud look like an asshole.

I think it's more an issue of the complexity of the idea being expressed.

The description of the hug states several things: Cloud has feelings for Tifa, he's wanted to be a cool SOLDIER who she can rely on since he was a child, the "one-night-stand" or "transgression" line indicates he's sexually attracted to her.

To contrast, the descriptions of the Clerith scenes are extremely literal and don't go as deep into the characters' psychology. I find it intriguing they wrote such a loaded paragraph to describe the hug in the CT resolution.

 

[Eerie]

The AI removes the subtext and the problem is that Japanese is a high context language. It can't really work as is. The AI is the problem in this case, a human translator wouldn't have made the mistake. FYI, someone ordered a professional translation for this page: x.com

The CT scene is much more complex and I'd argue it's actually necessary for Cloud's own development compared to the other two - it also kind of have its own mini arc in the main story. It was put first in the resolutions' page and the only one where you see Cloud in the picture describing it; the way it was filmed made it also as much about Cloud than about Tifa, contrarily to Barret and Aerith's resolution. It's a big dive into Cloud and Tifa's minds, colouring it romantically too with the description of the scene.

 

[Ryeleigh]

For example, as I mentioned earlier, take the flower. He gifted it to Tifa, trying to impress her (using Zack's technic) instead of wanting to please her first, and when she noticed that it wasn't like him to do that, he lied to her, which leads to her resolution where she is disappointed that she found out it primarily came frome Aerith. This isn't about being jealous, this is about the gift not being a thoughtful gift from Cloud for her, something special. I am pretty sure that the girls talked about it in Kalm, hence Aerith's words towards Cloud in Under Junon (I'm also pretty sure the director got the tone of the scene wrong because the English reads too mean compared to the JP, which led to a very awkward scene in EN).

Yeah, the JP line comes across as Aerith upset on Tifa's behalf for Cloud not giving the gift with enough thoughfulness behind it.

That was my reading of it, too, since it doesn't really make sense for Aerith to be jealous about it. But on the other hand, she did say, "It will make your girlfriend's day!" or something to that effect, so it was still a gift to be re-gifted to Cloud's "girlfriend" even if he didn't initially have the idea for it, lol.

 

[Ryushikaze]

That was my reading of it, too, since it doesn't really make sense for Aerith to be jealous about it. But on the other hand, she did say, "It will make your girlfriend's day!" or something to that effect, so it was still a gift to be re-gifted to Cloud's "girlfriend" even if he didn't initially have the idea for it, lol.

I think it's more a matter of "Cloud, be open with your feelings and honest with Tifa" I think Aerith can see Cloud has feelings for Tifa, Tifa has feelings for Cloud, and neither of them realize the other's feelings yet. For her own partknowing this and still doing what she does, she's treading a two different cliches,, one in which a friend makes overt but halfhearted moves on a guy to spur the friend into action, and another in which a woman, stuck on an old relationship, needs to make some sort of bold move to get moving.
I think Aerith may have chosen to take her shot with Cloud in the expectation of getting rejected so she could get some form of closure and then make a fresh start.

 

[aeriths]

So this image of the leaked officially translated Ultimania has been making the rounds. Thoughts? People have been using it as a dunk, and to be honest, I don’t know what to make of it. Is it as bad as I think it sounds?
View attachment 17313

Oh wow this is such a bad faith translation to put in official work. It makes Cloud look terrible especially given the context of the scene. No idea what they were thinking with this considering the original Japanese text

 

[Odysseus]

If only somebody translated the MUP months ago who was actually familiar with the game and didn't use AI...

cough

 

[Skilganon]

That was my reading of it, too, since it doesn't really make sense for Aerith to be jealous about it. But on the other hand, she did say, "It will make your girlfriend's day!" or something to that effect, so it was still a gift to be re-gifted to Cloud's "girlfriend" even if he didn't initially have the idea for it, lol.

This is an unfortunate reality of translation in general. In English, Aerith doesn't mention anything about a perspective girlfriend, she just says, "Think of it as a gift". The mention of a girlfriend makes her admonishment to Cloud less reasonable. Cloud did offer to pay for the flower, it was Aerith who decided to gift it to Cloud, which changes the whole situation in a way he couldn't control.

Anyway, I don't think Cloud gave the flower to Tifa for insincere reasons. It's not a regift when Aerith was already selling the flower as a gift to give to someone else.

 

[Hellenic]

Well it seems that they translated the Ulti with AI, so it explains a lot of things also I’m guessing fans did a better job lol. When I saw the translation I illustrated said it must be AI generated, looks like I was right.

Edit: x.com

I'm very disappointed they chose to let AI handle this stuff. It's just downright bad how that ended up being translated.

The AI removes the subtext and the problem is that Japanese is a high context language. It can't really work as is. The AI is the problem in this case, a human translator wouldn't have made the mistake. FYI, someone ordered a professional translation for this page: x.com

This right here is way better. I hope they can actually handle the future translations with proper people and not overtly rely on AI.

This just makes me feel like they delayed the Remake Ultimania Plus for this long just so they could try their AI technology on it as a test subject. Hojo would be proud.

 

[Eerie]

Anyway, I don't think Cloud gave the flower to Tifa for insincere reasons. It's not a regift when Aerith was already selling the flower as a gift to give to someone else.

He was not insincere, he wanted to impress her. It's in his core character, he wants to become special to her and he will do everything whithin his power to do so. But by doing so, he forgot to really think that he wanted her to be happy. He is the Cloud from the very start of Remake, and that guy starts from far back, he has a lot of growth to do, which he does throughout Remake and Rebirth, but he starts LOW. It's not a thoughtful gift that came from him, it came from Aerith instead, it's not that special to him. That's why Tifa is upset.

Then he gets scolded by Aerith in Under Junon (who also learned a lesson from Tifa herself), learns in Gongaga that she wishes to cook rare things but they are too expensive so she can never afford them - and in CoT he brings her rare veggies.

The character growth is there (I still hope to see him bring her a rare veggie in p3 ) and it's very sweet because you can see how much he wants her to be happy; his love for her in how he listens to what she says and what she wants. Because sure Tifa would like flowers from him, but she wants those veggies even more because she is a cook first!

 

[Maidenofwar]

Interesting presentation. So apparently they were briefed on the characters, and their relationship, as well as watching clips, etc.

Don't know, but seems they are reinforcing this, a bit, as well it being about Aerith herself and all her loves and cares.

Edit; Well I think Nojima's words are still important

and while theres still elements of that, like meeting someone, them changing your world

Edit 2- I wonder if the release of this was to coincide with the nominations for the Golden Joysticks and TGA, hmm.

Edit: I truly think they are definitely saying it's definitely both, a love song, about Aerith and Cloud, their bond, AND an Aerith song for everyone, Zack, etc, too

I don't want to put words into Loren's mouth, and say she based her research on what SE/the team briefed/coached her on, but it would be nice if there were some of that in it.

What I don't want to say, or think that this necessarily changes anything, there's still the whole leads to AC thing, and that endgame. Hmm. So for me CT and ZA isn't "destroyed" or anything like that. Just that CA is getting recognition too.