SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

Skilganon

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Tim
Maybe most of my frustrations are the result of hindsight. Knowing the OG story puts things in a certain context someone new to the franchise wouldn't have. There's no point trying to analyze a story that isn't finished. Though it being a Remake, does that even apply?
 

lyingbanana

Rookie Adventurer
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A banana
I mean, Cloud and Tifa's relationship is a core aspect of the narrative, and yet people can't talk about it without people clipping them and ridiculing them on Twitter.
Yes this so much, its so frustrating.

Also on the flip side of this, I'd also like to be able to talk about Cloud and Aerith's relationship or regular interactions without people derailing into "they are not canon" (usually by CT) or "its so romantic!!" (Usually by CA) Like nooo pls just let me analyze the relationships of the characters without it devolving into shipping. Those two characters can also be talked about without it being about romance.

I guess my wish for the end of the re-trilogy is being able to talk about all parts of the story without it getting derailed into shipping discourse. Like the relationships become so clear for even the average Joe that we can finally find peace lol
 

Ryeleigh

Pro Adventurer
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Rye
Yes this so much, its so frustrating.

Also on the flip side of this, I'd also like to be able to talk about Cloud and Aerith's relationship or regular interactions without people derailing into "they are not canon" (usually by CT) or "its so romantic!!" (Usually by CA) Like nooo pls just let me analyze the relationships of the characters without it devolving into shipping. Those two characters can also be talked about without it being about romance.

I guess my wish for the end of the re-trilogy is being able to talk about all parts of the story without it getting derailed into shipping discourse. Like the relationships become so clear for even the average Joe that we can finally find peace lol
I get that frustration but other stories that ended thirty, twenty, ten years ago with very definite pairings still have ship discourse and wars. So it might be good to get used to the idea that LTDs never truly end and still do your own thing regardless. XD
 

Hellenic

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Hellenic
I get that frustration but other stories that ended thirty, twenty, ten years ago with very definite pairings still have ship discourse and wars. So it might be good to get used to the idea that LTDs never truly end and still do your own thing regardless. XD
Bleach says hi :mon: . No matter the conclusion here, the most hardheaded people will never change their mind on this stuff.
 

pxl_pushr

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Pixel
I get that frustration but other stories that ended thirty, twenty, ten years ago with very definite pairings still have ship discourse and wars. So it might be good to get used to the idea that LTDs never truly end and still do your own thing regardless. XD
That’s why I don’t care about convincing shippers of anything. I want the story they intend to tell, and people who bend and twist it in whichever direction can scream into a void.

As long as the story has satisfying payoffs for what’s been built up for me, then I’m good. If it doesn’t, then I’m out lol simple as that.

The LTD has grown to define some people’s entire online identity, so even Cloud, Tifa, Aerith, and Zack looking into the camera and saying the exact feelings they have for eachother will change nothing.
 

Ryeleigh

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Rye
Bleach says hi :mon: . No matter the conclusion here, the most hardheaded people will never change their mind on this stuff.
Yep. And those hardheaded people will keep behaving exactly as they do now, lol.

The LTD has grown to define some people’s entire online identity, so even Cloud, Tifa, Aerith, and Zack looking into the camera and saying the exact feelings they have for eachother will change nothing.
Well, Cloud practically did look into the camera and call Aerith nakama so... :desu:
 

Skilganon

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Tim
The latter half of the OG is where we see Cloud and Tifa's relationship being core to the narrative. The Remake series has yet to cover the most important CT scenes. I can totally understand someone who hasn't played the OG thinking that Cloud and Aerith's romance is the 'heart' of the story, or at least on par with Tifa, that Tifa and Aerith are equal love interests. I wouldn't fault anyone for thinking this, nor would I want to spoil anyone's experience of the story by spoiling the game in order to 'prove' my ship. People who know the origin and eventual solution to Cloud's issues are looking at the story in a completely different way than people who don't. To the people who know, the question isn't 'what' will happen, but 'how'.

People who think Cloud and Aerith are going to kiss in part 3 can't really be faulted if they are unfamiliar with the OG. The story takes some unpredictable turns. It was the intention of FFVII to subvert expectations, ever since 1997.

The structure of the story contributes somewhat to the acrimony of the LTD. CA scenes are front-loaded, whereas CT scenes are backloaded and contain massive spoilers. Aerith and Tifa do not get equivalent screen time in the OG, nor do they fulfill equivalent roles. (I don't mean to say one character is strictly more important than the other in terms of a one-dimensional sense). Shipping discourse tends to boil down the characters into merely being romance options, which the OG story only supported in a brief moment before the apocalypse is summoned.
 

lyingbanana

Rookie Adventurer
AKA
A banana
I'm struggling to fathom how anyone could reasonably think Cloud will kiss Aerith in part 3. I suspect there may be some Advent Children era "it's not impossible, therefore it's inevitable" logic involved.
Well people managed to convince themselves that Cloud and Tifa kissing means nothing so at this point I dont think we are dealing with logic.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
There are also people who really gaslight their own peers, so to speak. They're making it sound like CA is canon when it's never been. And there are plenty of CAs ready to listen to them, who were brought by the trilogy and didn't play the OG. And who maybe watched AC and not ACC, following their peers' advices.
Also if I take the French version of CoT and CoLW for example, they're not only the old version, but also riddled in such way that it makes you believe CA is canon and CT is just friends living together. People reading that are completely misled and it's an official translation!
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Well people managed to convince themselves that Cloud and Tifa kissing means nothing so at this point I dont think we are dealing with logic.
Not only that, but they're trying to convince themselves that a CT kiss is a BAD thing for that pairing.

Also no, it's never been about logic. It's always been about druthers. And if folks would admit it was just druthers, that would be more than fine, but the problem is in the ones who are not only insisting that CA is more than druthers, but that CT is absurd that are the problem.
 

null

Mr. Thou
AKA
null
Well people managed to convince themselves that Cloud and Tifa kissing means nothing so at this point I dont think we are dealing with logic.

Yeah. I mean, even setting aside our usual rogues gallery. I'm channeling the mind of a brand new player who lives under a rock. I have no idea what happened in OG or the movie, or who that Tetsuya Nomura guy is, let alone him saying the character who dies in Rebirth won't come back in part 3. Heck, I'm not sure anyone even died in Rebirth because that ending is an incoherent mess to a newbie like me. But I really like Aerith with Cloud, and I've never heard of the Tifa kiss because I score Aerith's scenes 100% of the time.

That leaves me with: a gondala ride where they both decided not to kiss, a goodbye date where they hugged instead of kissing, several other dates where they talked about other things (usually Tifa) instead of kissing, shard hopping while holding hands instead of kissing... they've had so many opportunities to suck face by now.

But based on what I've seen so far, I think Cloud will kiss Aerith in part 3 because... ok here's where I'm stuck. What tells me they'll definitely make it to first base in part 3? How many "she's getting on that plane" moments do these two panda bears need? I can't think of a single reason that doesn't involve hardcore tunneling while putting faith in tropes.
 

Ryeleigh

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Rye
Yeah. I mean, even setting aside our usual rogues gallery. I'm channeling the mind of a brand new player who lives under a rock. I have no idea what happened in OG or the movie, or who that Tetsuya Nomura guy is, let alone him saying the character who dies in Rebirth won't come back in part 3. Heck, I'm not sure anyone even died in Rebirth because that ending is an incoherent mess to a newbie like me. But I really like Aerith with Cloud, and I've never heard of the Tifa kiss because I score Aerith's scenes 100% of the time.

That leaves me with: a gondala ride where they both decided not to kiss, a goodbye date where they hugged instead of kissing, several other dates where they talked about other things (usually Tifa) instead of kissing, shard hopping while holding hands instead of kissing... they've had so many opportunities to suck face by now.

But based on what I've seen so far, I think Cloud will kiss Aerith in part 3 because... ok here's where I'm stuck. What tells me they'll definitely make it to first base in part 3? How many "she's getting on that plane" moments do these two panda bears need? I can't think of a single reason that doesn't involve hardcore tunneling while putting faith in tropes.
Even for a total newbie there is still the non-optional almost kiss between Cloud and Tifa, never mind all the intimate bedroom talks between them, and Zack is running around to reunite with Aerith and I'm pretty sure it's obvious by now that Zack was Aerith's first love.

So even if I shipped Cloud and Aerith, it would still be totally obvious where the story and pairings are headed. Because you don't bring dead boyfriends back to life just to shaft him by having the girl he died to see and the guy he died to protect hook up, lol. Except maybe in something like The Bold and the Beautiful but I want to think that FF7's writing is a bit above an unending soap opera.

There is always the Zack of it all but the poor guy still gets ignored, lol.
 

Maidenofwar

They/Them
Aaw, this is cute though (CA at the MET) 🌼

Though I hear there is leak of (Part 3 "leak"?)
ZA kiss
Even if there isn't though does it make it less romantic 🤔

If the person who has the leaks is in the room with us can they send the name of part 3 😋

Edit: Oh dang, I didn't see the artist themselves has social media, whoops, deleting, didn't mean to put anyone on blast. Still grats to them for having an official account give a shout out to their art and the event.
 
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Eerie

Fire and Blood
Isn't it too soon for leaks to be out? Lol, I saw the news saying that the story/script is done but yeah, still to early if the game isn't coming out in 2026-2027
There are leaks, the story is written. Hell in January the p3 draft was almost finished so I guess this one Hamaguchi talked about includes sidequests.
 

pxl_pushr

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Pixel
There are leaks, the story is written. Hell in January the p3 draft was almost finished so I guess this one Hamaguchi talked about includes sidequests.
Leaks are possible once a script exists, and that’s been confirmed for months (at least the first drafts of one). Development may require adjustments to that document, but it’s possible bits and pieces got leaked.

Always best to exercise caution when deciding to believe them or not. No harm in that.
 

Maidenofwar

They/Them
Oh and just to clarify I wasn't saying the CA art at the MET "confirms" anything. Just it's nice to see CA in the public consciousness and SE putting CA on blast like that.

Also wholesome seeing the museum and their staff getting the awareness of their art projects in general like that. I thought it was a cool thing to do for the museum to run things so their staff could also make arts and them display the staff art.

In the case of the CA art, turns out the artist didn't have a social media presence previously but created an account to thank people (including the SE account) for spreading awareness of their art and the museum project.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Oh and just to clarify I wasn't saying the CA art at the MET "confirms" anything. Just it's nice to see CA in the public consciousness and SE putting CA on blast like that.

Also wholesome seeing the museum and their staff getting the awareness of their art projects in general like that. I thought it was a cool thing to do for the museum to run things so their staff could also make arts and them display the staff art.

In the case of the CA art, turns out the artist didn't have a social media presence previously but created an account to thank people (including the SE account) for spreading awareness of their art and the museum project.
Honestly you don't need to worry, being at the MET is a huge honour, there was no way SE would pass that. And I can imagine how thrilled the artist can feel, so good for her!
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Well, double post since Hamaguchi seems to be giving various interviews. You can find this one here at IGN JP, and, translation thanks to DeepL:

浜口氏はキスシーンを取り入れた理由について聞かれ、実は特別な意図があったことを明かした。


「1作目『ファイナルファンタジーVII リメイク』にもクラウドがティファを抱きしめるシーンがありました。『ファイナルファンタジーVII リバース』ではクラウドに成長してほしいと思ったので、1作目ですでに抱きしめていれば、2作目ではそれ以上を求めた方がいいということで取り入れました」


キスシーンは単なるファンサービスではなく、クラウドの成長を描くために導入された側面が強いということになるだろう。シーンを見れば、キスはティファからではなくクラウドが先手をとっていることがわかる。


浜口氏自身は1997年に発売された原作『ファイナルファンタジーVII』をいちプレイヤーとして遊び、多大な影響を受けた。開発チームはこのように、『ファイナルファンタジーVII』で育った世代のメンバーが多いという。原作への思い入れと深い理解もあって、このようなシーンが誕生したのだろう。

Which translates to:

When asked about the reason for incorporating the kissing scene, Hamaguchi revealed that he actually had a special intention.

'In the first Final Fantasy VII Remake, there was a scene where Cloud hugs Tifa. In Final Fantasy VII Rebirth, I wanted Cloud to grow up, so I incorporated it because if he had already hugged her in the first film, he should want more in the second film.’

This would mean that the kissing scene was not just fanservice, but a strong aspect introduced to portray Cloud's growth. The scene shows that the kiss is not initiated by Tifa, but by Cloud.

Hamaguchi himself played the original Final Fantasy VII, released in 1997, as a player and was heavily influenced by it. As such, many members of the development team are from the generation that grew up with Final Fantasy VII. It is likely that this scene was created due in part to their deep understanding of and attachment to the original work.

Well today should be funny to watch, he went and just fired all ammos at all the bad faith arguments lol. I quite enjoy that this vision basically says that if we want to see Cloud's growth, we should go the CT path xD

Edit: I found the original interview here at Gamewatch

――作中のゴンドラデートにおいて、ティファとのキスシーンが描かれました。これは初代「FF7」発売から27年間ではじめてのことであり、ファンに大きな衝撃を与えました。どのような意図でこのキスシーンを実装したのでしょうか?

浜口氏:すごいマニアックな質問ですね(笑)。そうですね、実は明確な意図がありまして、1作目(リメイク)でも最後の新羅ビルに向かうところの分岐のイベントのシーンのときに、クラウドがティファを抱きしめるシーンがあったんですね。で、リメイクからリバースへ繋がったときに、クラウドもやっぱり成長していってほしいというのがありまして、1作目で抱きしめたのであれば、2作目ではそれ以上を求めたほうがいいんじゃないかというのがチーム中で話になったので、その中であのような表現になったというのがあります。

-A kissing scene with Tifa was depicted during a gondola date in the film. This was the first time this had happened in the 27 years since the original FF7 was released, and it was a big shock to fans. What was your intention in implementing this kiss scene?

Hamaguchi: That's an incredibly maniacal question (laughs). Yes, actually, we had a clear intention. In the first game (remake), there was a scene in which Cloud hugged Tifa during the branching event scene at the end when they were heading to the Shinra Building. When we connected the Remake to the Rebirth, we wanted Cloud to grow as well, and the team thought that if he hugged her in the first game, we should ask for more than that in the second game. I think that's how we came up with that expression.

Am I the only one who feels that when he asked for a CT hug in Remake, Nojima perfectly knew they had to go up which meant a kiss in the GS date? Because hell, if after seeing it I felt that way, it certainly didn't escape a professional writer.

Which also makes me connect Aerith's resolution and her GS date which are both about the illusion, her falling for Cloud who is playing Zack... And Aerith wishing to not fall for him. I think it may be CoLW Aerith there too, thinking about it.
 
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Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
It has been hilarious seeing the react to this interview dropping in real time and the copes adjusting in real time. Apparently the current cope is that the kiss is just a branch event and not the main narrative (Ignore Gongaga please), despite, you know, all the dates existing to show the development of Cloud's relationships, and that they are all true to his character such that which one happened in continuity is actually irrelevant.

EDIT TO ADD: And apparently calling it a branch is based on Hamguchi talking about the resolution scene branches from Remake, which A: are all branch events and B: all happened in continuity.
 
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lyingbanana

Rookie Adventurer
AKA
A banana
When I still had a twitter accound I heard so many times "well in MY playthrough that didnt happen." Im so glad we are moving away from the ambiguity without dumbing down anything and with statements such as "they had clear intention" to show the progression to his feelings, just reaffirms that no matter each individual playthrough the story is the story.

This also means we can expect more progression in the next installment, under the Highwind will be amazing.
 

Skilganon

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Tim
I find the use of the term 'Fan Service' interesting in the context of the LTD. CAs will often call the CT kiss fan service, followed by "disconnected from the story". Of course, fan service can be very connected to the story.

For example, Cloud and Zack teaming up at the end of Rebirth to fight Sephiroth is undoubtedly fan service, but no one says it's disconnected from the story, because neither of these characters are involved in a bitter love rivalry.

To say that Cloud kissing Tifa, the woman he's had a crush on since childhood, who would eventually help restore his memories, who he spends the night with before the final battle, who he will live with after the events of FFVII, is "disconnected from the story" is willful rejection of the story. I think some cleriths need to say this because the kiss re-contextualizes everything else between Cloud and TIfa that has come before. No one can say their relationship is strictly platonic now.

So the kiss is definitely fan service, AND connected to the story.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
The fanservice term is used by IGN's writer, it's not in Hamaguchi's comment; and we know they also wanted to please fans with the kiss they have imagined for a long time so there is definitely both an element of fanservice and story/character development.

The fact is that both Tifa's resolution and her GS date are about Cloud's own personal development, him learning how to console Tifa even while fumbling growing into the desire to kiss her, it is really really nice I feel.
 
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