SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[eleamaya]

No one cared about being "in-character" for them either, it was for the fun and fascination of playing these characters in these made-up scenarios. It was fun to pretend Goku was going to highschool with Sailor Moon and Inuyasha characters. XD I also think my foundation for being okay with OOC comes from reading fanfiction, as looking back, the majority of my favorite fics have characterization that is varied from the real thing. Some fics were dependent upon it, as young me had to figure out what the hell a "lemon" had to do with a genre, so. lol

But I also understand the other side, because eventually I became a more strict, logical person. The correlation stems from when people made it not about the fun, and more of pushing OOC value onto the actual characters themselves and people in a negative way. Which would be fine in a creative, personal space where no one should care, but when people start being nasty and irrational over it, then it makes it hard to have real discussions or even FOR people to have fun. People become indignant and protective of their headcanons now. I also think it is great to see fan works that depict things closer to the source in creative ways as well, but it isn't a necessity still I'd say.

I'm so picky with fanfiction. I hate OOC-ness even if the setting is AU and the pairs is my own OTP. Like, if this is OOC, then it's your personal fanfiction, should not share with others who think of that character as the character they know unless you're okay with their reviews no matter what.

When I talk about in character, I like Sefikura fanfic and JP fanzine when Sephiroth abuse and/or rape Cloud, lol. It's not OOC. And I think that's what make Sefikura over the top at the first place. Blame CLAMP who make me love that kind of yaoi.

 

[Eerie]

I couldn’t answer @LunarTarotGirl about the childhood friends trope; I don’t really feel that way towards it because I never really feel that destiny string attached to it. If the relationship is engaging then it is, if not then not. So to me it’s really funny you see it that way xD

To me CT’s appeal wasn’t that they were childhood friends, since I did not ship them at first and wanted to throw Cloud off a cliff xD it really was the LS scene because I need the boy to be down bad for the girl in order to ship - whether it’s alluded to (City Hunter) or shown right there (CT), I feel that to be engaged with the pair, it’s one thing that must be fulfilled (which is why CA leaves me absolutely cold dead lol).

In the case of CT, being childhood friends has been well used I think, so I’m good with it. I do love the trope of destiny, but I think characters shouldn’t be aware of it, if I make sense xD it does take away their own wishes and wants, so while I love it, it also must be used wisely.

There are many tropes in writing, but personally I feel that whether you like the trope or not, the most engaging thing must be the relationship in itself (as a shipper of course).

The tropes that I think are being developed for p3 (I might be wrong):

• eternal love through life and death (both CT and ZA);
• destined love (CT and ZA);
• childhood friends love (CT);
• knight and princess (ZA; this one is from Rebirth but I feel it’s going to live on).

So they are going to push a lot of similarities and parallels between the two ships.

Edit: I forgot soulmates for both ships too.

 

[Skilganon]

If it weren't for the Life stream sequence, I don't think I would care nearly as much as I do. That's probably the most important factor for if you ship CT or not. This is why I think the LTD conversation is going to change immensely when part 3 comes out and we see the Life stream scene in HD with voice acting. It isn't even about the tropes, it's about the Cloud and Tifa shared character development.

If CA had similar development I might care more about that relationship.

 

[Eerie]

Well as I keep saying it, the Lifestream sequence is the answer to the LT, and this is why CA can't have a similar scene. This is where we learn that Cloud really is an "it's only you" type of character, and that Tifa was the key to solve the Nibelheim mystery and help Cloud, as all his inner thoughts, his core memories were about her.

However, the number of people who don't understand what this scene is about and think it's simply about the Nibelheim mystery is way too high, and that leads them to theorise that Aerith/Zack can help too, can be in the sequence. This is partly why I am absolutely convinced we'll get a confession (the other part being Akira's song), and a kiss, because it is an extremely romantic scene, and oddly enough, only a fragment of the fans understand that. Yes, even CA understand this very well, as they've wanted that scene for CA for decades. Make no mistake, despite the "it's in the past" bad take, they totally understand the nature of this event.

If anything, Rebirth has largely built on for the LSS: we have Cloud and Tifa reminiscing their younger years a lot, but also the Nibelheim incident not being solved, the hint at it with Tifa's own memories in the LS that are just like Cloud's, and at the very end, the Black Whispers who are attacking her memories - which will lead into her doubting her own memories, and doubting Cloud in Northern Crater. The LSS is about Cloud and Tifa, because it's about Cloud's memories and feelings for Tifa. It's his own little world in the Lifestream made of his deepest wish to be noticed by her.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

I couldn’t answer @LunarTarotGirl about the childhood friends trope; I don’t really feel that way towards it because I never really feel that destiny string attached to it. If the relationship is engaging then it is, if not then not. So to me it’s really funny you see it that way xD

To me CT’s appeal wasn’t that they were childhood friends, since I did not ship them at first and wanted to throw Cloud off a cliff xD it really was the LS scene because I need the boy to be down bad for the girl in order to ship - whether it’s alluded to (City Hunter) or shown right there (CT), I feel that to be engaged with the pair, it’s one thing that must be fulfilled (which is why CA leaves me absolutely cold dead lol).

In the case of CT, being childhood friends has been well used I think, so I’m good with it. I do love the trope of destiny, but I think characters shouldn’t be aware of it, if I make sense xD it does take away their own wishes and wants, so while I love it, it also must be used wisely.

There are many tropes in writing, but personally I feel that whether you like the trope or not, the most engaging thing must be the relationship in itself (as a shipper of course).

The tropes that I think are being developed for p3 (I might be wrong):

• eternal love through life and death (both CT and ZA);
• destined love (CT and ZA);
• childhood friends love (CT);
• knight and princess (ZA; this one is from Rebirth but I feel it’s going to live on).

So they are going to push a lot of similarities and parallels between the two ships.

Edit: I forgot soulmates for both ships too.

Yeah for me and this is about anything in media actually I usually always figure out the endgame or end of a movie or whatever pretty quick. I've always been that way.

So I need a reason to be invested besides a relationship that I know will happen because I figured it out early on. I prefer not knowing actually 90% of the time. I don't like destiny anything it feels too .. predictable? Contrived?

Like I need my characters to not just earn something because destiny dictated it as so. I need them to suffer and fight for it against all odds pulling them apart.

"And it's always been you" or "childhood friends with a promise" means there's no odds or that it doesn't matter the odds.
It's always been them, they promised. The story is hinting with a hammer on the head that they WILL end up together no question. That's destiny. Because there is no other path. Especially when you see one character not fall in love but be in love from the start. That can not be anymore destined. And I don't know why people don't see it that way. The childhood friends to lovers especially who promised trope is a neon flashing light that's way too bright. So obvious and certain that it hurts my eyes.

I prefer the opposite. And I prefer the uncertainty. There are infinite paths were they could have totally not ended up together, where they can't, because it was not always them, or maybe they never imagined it would be them but it's them in the end. Or they don't belong together but choose eachother anyway. That's my ideal romance entertainment.

And when you make two characters promise since childhood that goes out the window. It becomes definite. Which is why I'm so against it lol sorry.

So then comes the engagement part you mentioned.

So why am I here? I know the ending. The story is still playing so what else is there to keep my interest longer than 5 minutes? That's what I look for in these things.

And see yeah no I don't want anyone down bad for anyone else.
To me that already tells me the end, it shows me no chase, no struggle. They love eachother and always have. The end.

So why am I here? What else you got besides being down bad for eachother? Why should I personally invest myself in why you're down bad to eachother? That's the question. One I think The Lifestream scene can answer. And one I think ACC answered.

And sadly none of those tropes except for knight and princess maybe appeal to me. Those stories are a dime a dozen. I read them all already. So I do hope there's more than that for ZA.
I'm going to need way more than that to keep my interest.

And as I said, I'm like this with all media. It's not that the couples and tropes that for me are been there done that what else? aren't peak engagement to others that aren't me. I'm sure they are. Engagement is a really personal experience to each person. I don't think we can say anything is engaging or not across the board.
I am just one person in the audience who figured it out too quickly in the first act and now I'm waiting to be amazed. Which is why I actually like when stories makes me question.

 

[Eerie]

@LunarTarotGirl: I wasn't trying to change your mind lol, I was just explaining that I feel very differently. Also you should absolutely watch Doctor Who with the 11th Doctor, Amy and Rory are one of the best ships ever written and yes they're childhood friends. And yes, the guy is an absolute nutcase for her I won't say anymore than that but yes, if you haven't already, try to watch that Doctor at least, with Amy as the companion (plus you'll meet River Song and everyone needs to meet River Song).

Also the reason why I want the guy to be down bad for the girl is because groans the girl is usually the one who is down bad for the guy FIRST and I hate relationships that are not equal. I spent my first run of FFVII telling Tifa to drop that jackass until the LSS, which is basically where Cloud redeemed himself in my eyes. Personally I would've dropped him dead way before the Midgar part ended lol. Part of why I went on is that I really wanted to kill Sephiroth

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

@LunarTarotGirl: I wasn't trying to change your mind lol, I was just explaining that I feel very differently. Also you should absolutely watch Doctor Who with the 11th Doctor, Amy and Rory are one of the best ships ever written and yes they're childhood friends. And yes, the guy is an absolute nutcase for her I won't say anymore than that but yes, if you haven't already, try to watch that Doctor at least, with Amy as the companion (plus you'll meet River Song and everyone needs to meet River Song).

Also the reason why I want the guy to be down bad for the girl is because groans the girl is usually the one who is down bad for the guy FIRST and I hate relationships that are not equal. I spent my first run of FFVII telling Tifa to drop that jackass until the LSS, which is basically where Cloud redeemed himself in my eyes. Personally I would've dropped him dead way before the Midgar part ended lol. Part of why I went on is that I really wanted to kill Sephiroth

I know I was just explaining too the destiny part of CT and why for some reason I see it as a blaring light but others clearly don't which is so interesting to me.

I like Doctor Who so if you say this couple is good I'll check it out

I agree with that in stories the girl usually falls first. I don't like that either. I like He Falls First, myself or they fall for eachother at the same time. But I like it gradual. I like to see the build up something and I can't see it if he is down bad so quickly.

One of my favorite ships for this reason that is also childhood friends is Shulk and Fiora from Xenoblade Chronicles because you actually see them sort of realize their feelings on equal footing and there's an LTD there that I think is just handled so well and should be the example of how love triangle stories should actually be written.

And another It's Always Been You and Capital D Destiny Biggest Red String of Fate but not childhood friends couple I love is NoahxMio from Xenoblade Chronicles. Where you clearly see it's always been them. Where they both wear literal red strings and destiny is a huge theme. But there's just so much more going on to build them up and going on that convinces you that yeah these two earned it.

So it's not that in every single case I will reject couples that show these tropes. My mind can be changed lol. It really just does depend on the execution.

 

[Empyrea]

A little late to the party, but even though I liked the LSS and is pretty much why I recall FF7 despite playing it only once, technically, I...don't actually ship CT.

CA and CT to me both suffer from being almost nothing but conflict and hardly any pay-off. CT (in og) basically put it all on the back of Mideel and LSS. It's sweet and it is a very important highlight, but it's just a couple of scenes. CA, on the other hand, has the "opposites attract" (which can be nice when done right, but mostly, I hate that trope) and other familiar tropes going for them, but the moment I saw Aerith putting majority, if not all, the effort into it, I immediately dropped it as a possibility (yes, before she even died). If I'm shipping, I want the ones involved to grow from being "you and I" to a "we/us." CA never had and will have that from where I stood, while for CT, AC kinda put it in a blender (that movie needs a rewrite, I swear to god...).

Retrilogy so far at least improved CT. They're not just all about the secretly pining and the conflict, they're actually shown interacting, having sweet little moments, and actually sharing their thoughts with one another before the LSS. It has the emotional connection I want in my ships. Now Part 3 just needs to stick the landing.

CA also had some cute scenes -- the photography scene comes to mind -- but I'm not one to count every single moment a pair shares as shippy. I can see said scene happening for a couple of really close friends, for one.

 

[eleamaya]

I've also shared my preference here. To repeat, I dont like childhood friends trope. I read so many mangas and I dont like it... in example, I prefer other couples in Detective Conan aside Shinichi/Ran and Heiji/Kazura (Man, I really really hate the slow burn in Heiji/Kazuha, at least Shinichi/Ran give me angst and Shinichi isnt shy or stupid about romance like Heiji, I mean Shinichi brought Ran to expensive dinner date and London to confess! What a guy!). Or maybe what I dont like is the dynamic of both parties hiding, unaware, or cannot admit they have feelings because they've been friends since childhood, let's say it's the slow burn that I dont like whether it's childhood friends or not. And yes, Aerith is my favorite girl + I'm sucker for tragedy (this is even before I swift to Zerith). Cloti was not in my radar even when Tifa devoted herself to stay by Cloud's side in Mideel, it didn't move me yet. What make me accept Cloti is canon, is the trope of Guy's Hopeless Romantic over a girl, usually exist in Shounen. I see Cloud fall to that category towards Tifa revealed in Lifestream Sequence. I can write his love like this:

Cloud is never a badass hero picturing a big dream to be famous for saving the world to begin with, that’s not what he imagine when he left his hometown to be SOLDIER that big city life might’ve changed his motivation into money. Lifestream sequence reveals the real Cloud is a simple man whose action motivated by his childhood crush to Tifa, to impress her, to be noticed by her, to deserve her, to be strong for her, to be a hero just for her. Everything starts there, started even from earlier years when he failed to protect her in the mountain when they were 7-8 years old. Isn’t it the most romantic side from a man named Cloud Strife?

I can apply it to Zerith, either:

Zack’s motivation to leave his hometown at the same age as Cloud and joined SOLDIER program is totally different. A very idealistic one: to be a hero. It drove him being a hard-worker, duty and career is number one, then fame, money, and wealth hopefully follows... every man's dream! But the road isn't easy, it's a brutal life, and he discovered more and more depressing truth. As he met Aerith time to time, while never giving up on his dream, it reflects how he wanted to be a simple man who will always be there for her, to spend his time with her no matter how cheesy it would be, he wanted to end his mission quicky just to be by her side, to fullfill her wishes. Isn’t it the most romantic side from a man named Zack Fair?

It really was the LS scene because I need the boy to be down bad for the girl in order to ship

shake hand

I do love the trope of destiny, but I think characters shouldn’t be aware of it

This is my problem with Sailor Moon 90s anime. Man, the manga is very beautiful in portraying Mamo/Usagi's relationship, they've been in love for each other as Mamoru and Usagi, not as Tuxedo Kamen and Sailor Moon, even before they know their tragic past life (oh hello, tragedy, I love you XD). But the 90s anime? It's garbage. They're like engaged only because "Oh, we're lovers in the past life, let's be lover again". But people who like "love-hate relationship" dynamic will love it. Nah, it's never appealing to me.

 

[null]

I’m playing Dragon Quest V: Hand of the Heavenly Bride and my purple hero guy is getting married. This game uses a novel affection system where your marriage candidates line up in a row and then you pick one. (You can also say nevermind and choose someone else - none of that “but thou must” baloney). Then you have a wedding and your bride joins your party.

The interesting part is that it doesn’t matter who you pick because all three choices are from the Zenithian bloodline so your children will descend from the hero of DQ4.

In summary: a game where the plot doesn’t branch, the choice of partner is truly up to the player, and there’s no contradiction or need for interpretation. If you pick Nera, she won’t die and your purple hero won’t suddenly realize his entire life revolves around childhood friend Bianca. He won’t proceed to have sex and move in with Bianca without your consent. If you pick Bianca, he won’t hold hands with Debora in a way that could be used against him in divorce court.

Yuji Horii doesn’t have bizarre policies about discussing who the hero likes in interviews, because he doesn’t need them, because he didn’t try to layer some convoluted postmodernist perspective on top of player choice that ultimately gets disregarded by the plot.

Has any franchise in history fucked up this simple concept harder than FFVII? All of the game’s phenomenal success with creative risk taking aside, was this the worst possible story to experiment with perspective and choice in romance?

 

[Skilganon]

Has any franchise in history fucked up this simple concept harder than FFVII? All of the game’s phenomenal success with creative risk taking aside, was this the worst possible story to experiment with perspective and choice in romance?

This is my viewpoint as well. I think it just comes down to SE not wanting to alienate anybody. But then we all know the general gist of the story, the only reason CA shippers don't feel alienated is because they're pinning all their hopes on some kind of timeline shenanigans.

Which ever way they pick, some massive swath of the fandom is going to be disappointed. And if they keep things vague, EVERYBODY is going to be disappointed.

As I've stated before, I feel like the fault lies with SE. We can talk about people ignoring evidence all day, doesn't change the fact the devs are deliberately feeding this thing.

 

[Dr Frasier Crane]

I’m playing Dragon Quest V: Hand of the Heavenly Bride and my purple hero guy is getting married. This game uses a novel affection system where your marriage candidates line up in a row and then you pick one. (You can also say nevermind and choose someone else - none of that “but thou must” baloney). Then you have a wedding and your bride joins your party.

The interesting part is that it doesn’t matter who you pick because all three choices are from the Zenithian bloodline so your children will descend from the hero of DQ4.

In summary: a game where the plot doesn’t branch, the choice of partner is truly up to the player, and there’s no contradiction or need for interpretation. If you pick Nera, she won’t die and your purple hero won’t suddenly realize his entire life revolves around childhood friend Bianca. He won’t proceed to have sex and move in with Bianca without your consent. If you pick Bianca, he won’t hold hands with Debora in a way that could be used against him in divorce court.

Yuji Horii doesn’t have bizarre policies about discussing who the hero likes in interviews, because he doesn’t need them, because he didn’t try to layer some convoluted postmodernist perspective on top of player choice that ultimately gets disregarded by the plot.

Has any franchise in history fucked up this simple concept harder than FFVII? All of the game’s phenomenal success with creative risk taking aside, was this the worst possible story to experiment with perspective and choice in romance?

It’s an interesting example to draw a comparison from. Dragon Quest V, as I understand it, is even more beloved in Japan than FFVII.

There’s two counter arguments from me:

1. While a far less popular topic on the English speaking Internet than the LTD, I’ve definitely seen people argue about “best girl” and canonicity on Reddit and Gamfaqs with regards to the DQV brides. I would say that of all the options, Bianca is by far the “most canon” but some will definitely take umbrage with this claim.

2. Dragon Quest heroes, as with many other games, are silent protagonists, and I find romances with silent protagonists often fall flat. Sure, you can choose responses and you naturally form a bond with your teammates in an RPG due to build/stat management, but often these relationships come off as underwritten due to the protagonist being a blank slate. (The worst example of a silent protagonist romance would be in Half Life and Alyx Vance inexplicably having feelings for a man (Gordon Freeman) who does nothing but kill aliens and solve physics puzzles. Tangent over!) The point is that people don’t get as emotionally invested in silent protagonist romances / choose your own adventure romances, because there’s less meaning in these romances to argue over. By contrast, I believe that fans argue over Cloti and Clerith ad infinitum because they see their deeply held values on love and romance reflected in these two contrasting relationships (e.g. opposites attract; shared trauma can lead to shared healing). And I think those arguments would still be had even if there was a canon ending to the FFVII romances (which there kind of is). People still argue about Harry/Hermione, Ichigo/Rukia and all those other big non-canon pairings even now, despite those couples having lost out to canon.

 

[Skilganon]

This goes way back to that Nomura interview from 1997, in which he said, "There are no branching paths, but I wanted to create scenes that reflect the feelings of the player". To have an affection system, yet deny there are branching paths, will sound like a contradiction to many people. To this day, people refer to the "Aerith route" versus the "Tifa route". And, judging by what the devs say in interviews, there's no real way to argue against this interpretation of the story, at least not until part 3.

Which leads to why I think the LTD gets so heated. Because claiming that Cloud is in love with a certain woman in also a claim about Cloud as a character. This "other" version of Cloud is not the one I believe in, it's not the protagonist that makes the most satisfying story. So in the end we have two different groups who have diametrically opposed visions of the same story.

 

[Empyrea]

I still find it rather stubborn of people to call those "routes" when the story is pretty linear. Routes would imply events change and would be accompanied with a different ending, or at least a different epilogue, to accomodate the choice.

Really, the whole idea was dumb from the word go. If CAs stopped digging their heels on whatever nonsense they're cooking up so they can say their ship is canon, I'd feel bad for them.

No one wants to be given a choice only to later be told, "No, you don't get a choice, actually."

 

[null]

I mean, that quote proves there are no routes in FFVII. Routes, by definition, are branching paths. You make choices that change the outcome of the game, or the path through the game, and FFVII does neither of those things. At best, some of the dialogue choices do reflect the player's feelings, but they don't matter in the end.

That's the maddening part. There's a concrete narrative that can't be avoided, but we're given the tools to delude ourselves otherwise.

 

[Eerie]

"There are no branching paths, but I wanted to create scenes that reflect the feelings of the player". To have an affection system, yet deny there are branching paths, will sound like a contradiction to many people.

It's absolutely not, I yelled when I read that interview; here we were, in freaking 1997 with Nomura telling people there was no love triangle and the story is Tifa. But hey if as the player you prefer Aerith, you can go on a date with her (no consequence). Literally, the freaking answer to the LTD is here, in that tiny interview from way back in 1997.

So in the end we have two different groups who have diametrically opposed visions of the same story.

This is the reason why the LTD is still furiously ongoing, because we have on one side people who are willing to distort the story and the characters (the extreme ones), and on the other side we have people who stick to the story and are very attached to how Cloud himself is depicted. This is a fight over visions of characters that go way beyond simple shipping. And it can be boiled down to: "what do you think the devs are trying to push? An arsehole who lives with his childhood friend who's madly in love with him but go on a search for his lost love after having a one night stand with his childhood friend, or 2 people who are in love with each other and end up creating a family, going through tense and hard times before they can reach happiness?"

If you spell it that way, I guarantee you that very few will push the former view, yet it's absolutely what some CAs are pushing as the canon lore. This is clearly not what the devs have in mind, and if Cloud was anything like this, they can have him (why would you want to pair your fave with such an arsehole is something else altogether).

I still find it rather stubborn of people to call those "routes" when the story is pretty linear. Routes would imply events change and would be accompanied with a different ending, or at least a different epilogue, to accomodate the choice.

Exactly, this is not a route, the route ends up at the GS date, that's it. As I keep saying (and I really feel with more and more confidence that I am right on this, especially with Nomura's answer to the LT...), the LT is just there to further the illusion. Aerith herself in her resolution says that it's an illusion. And some people fall for it. Others won't. This is why I just know that CT is getting a Cloud confession, and ZA will clear out things too.

 

[Xannis]

This goes way back to that Nomura interview from 1997, in which he said, "There are no branching paths, but I wanted to create scenes that reflect the feelings of the player". To have an affection system, yet deny there are branching paths, will sound like a contradiction to many people. To this day, people refer to the "Aerith route" versus the "Tifa route". And, judging by what the devs say in interviews, there's no real way to argue against this interpretation of the story, at least not until part 3.

Which leads to why I think the LTD gets so heated. Because claiming that Cloud is in love with a certain woman in also a claim about Cloud as a character. This "other" version of Cloud is not the one I believe in, it's not the protagonist that makes the most satisfying story. So in the end we have two different groups who have diametrically opposed visions of the same story.

I'd be shocked if even 5% of the player base is reading interviews from Nomura from 1997.

I haven't validated this personally but people smarter than me have stated that you pretty much lose all semblance of "Choice" after the Lifestream. They posit the view that Cloud is indeed meant to be a character you can project onto to some extent (and are even encouraged to do so) but only until you learn the truth about him. Then you're not given the same kind of options in dialog that you were prior to the LS and from then on he simply acts like he acts. Hence the confusion isn't statements from the Dev's, but players not fully picking up on the complete impact of The Reveal/Plot Twist.

I happen to think that makes lots of sense as a perspective. Said it before but I feel like people don't give the reveal that Cloud was more or less a fake for the first half of the story the proper weight it deserves. When the Reveal happens It should immediately make you question literally everything he said and did up to that point (including any feelings he might have had towards any character) and more importantly you should give more credence to what he says and does after. This doesn't mean that nothing he did prior matters. Just that if something he did Pre-LS is contradicted by something Post LS, then the Post LS action is more likely to be in line with Cloud.

It doesn't help that Pre LS Cloud is an amalgamation vs just being a total fake. There is enough of what you saw Pre - LS in his Post - LS that you can think he didn't change that much thus you don't view him through the lens of being more or less a new/different character than what you've been playing up till that point.

The double standard is really weird too. Any time Cloud is an asshole a CA will hand-wave that by saying "He's not in his right mind at the moment". Follow up and then ask them why it can't possibly be true than any feelings he has for Aerith might be influenced by that (or that his feelings for Tifa are somewhat repressed and/or muddled) and whoo boy you're cleaning up head 'splosion.

 

[Ryushikaze]

It's actually before that, even. All your "choice making" stops right after whichever Gold Saucer date you get, and whether it was Tifa, Yuffie, Aerith or Barret, Cloud will ALWAYS say that Tifa's opinion matters most and that he's sorry he couldn't be Cloud for Tifa and he hopes she gets to meet the real him.

 

[Skilganon]

This is the reason why the LTD is still furiously ongoing, because we have on one side people who are willing to distort the story and the characters (the extreme ones), and on the other side we have people who stick to the story and are very attached to how Cloud himself is depicted. This is a fight over visions of characters that go way beyond simple shipping. And it can be boiled down to: "what do you think the devs are trying to push? An arsehole who lives with his childhood friend who's madly in love with him but go on a search for his lost love after having a one night stand with his childhood friend, or 2 people who are in love with each other and end up creating a family, going through tense and hard times before they can reach happiness?"

Here's the thing, I've read enough interviews with the FFVII devs from around that time to no longer give them the benefit of the doubt about this stuff. I don't think they knew how bad the CT relationship looked in AC, which is why they made ACC which changed a lot of the perception around Cloud's affections. But now we have two versions, which complicates things to no end.

Whenever I hear the argument, "This-and-That would make Cloud an asshole, the writers would never interpret their story that way", I have to ask: Are you sure? Because if it's not intentional then it just looks like bad or purposely vague writing at best.

The double standard is really weird too. Any time Cloud is an asshole a CA will hand-wave that by saying "He's not in his right mind at the moment". Follow up and then ask them why it can't possibly be true than any feelings he has for Aerith might be influenced by that (or that his feelings for Tifa are somewhat repressed and/or muddled) and whoo boy you're cleaning up head 'splosion.

I don't expect anything in either the games or dev interviews will ever clear this up. All sides of the LTD have used Cloud's identity crisis as an excuse to disqualify certain actions. I've seen CA shippers claim that Cloud's attention toward Tifa in the Remake series is because of Zack's ghost inside of him. And to be fair, the game doesn't give us the tools to ascertain the sincerity of Cloud's actions pre-LS. So either everything he does is sincere, or nothing is(and that includes the CT kiss).

 

[Eerie]

@Skilganon you are quick to listen CAs "theories" but as soon as we debunk them you switch subject to another CA "theory". Seriously this is repetitive. I don't need to pretend what Cloud does pre-LSS doesn't count; because if you look at the end of Rebirth, you see ZERO romance from him. He says goodbye to Aerith in a scenario he made up in his head, helped by Jenova, and at no point ever did he ever tell her he wanted her to stay with them, or told her he wanted to stay with her, or that he loved her, or wanted to hug her, nor kiss her. And prior to that, in the dream date, he reasserted that he wanted to spend time with her because she was his friend. Yeah the vibe I get from him is that he wants to dote on her because he feels her loneliness, and post-Nibelheim he even knows she lost someone whom she loved. That's all there is on his side. Whatever is from Aerith will be cleared up next game, hopefully, but all the game has shown me is that Cloud Strife, whose real personality is brought out when Tifa is around according to the devs, is in love with Tifa and wants to be more than a friend to her. And I don't need the GS kiss for that, as they nearly kiss in Gongaga, and this is not optional.

And while I'm at it, if you watch both normal dates for Tifa and Aerith, it will be revealed to you how Cloud thinks about Aerith, romance-wise. One girl gets a hug, the other one he looks the other side while she's begging for comfort. IT IS PAINFUL TO WATCH AERITH'S DATE. And that's where the difference in treatment really shine, because Tifa still gets her "not one bit" and a hug, but Aerith is so clearly friendzoned it's just painful. Aerith's GS date is SUPER SAD. Both in normal and high affection. That's the deal with her date.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Sorry for quiet and not posting here for a while. Mostly just been enjoying content mainly, been vibing, relatively. The Hamaguchi comments, which really I think was mainly addressing media integrity, or Western journalists/media putting a spin on things that was not intended. The PC release, enjoying the game afresh with all the new screenshots and things, the excitement of the devs for PC release, and new people getting to experience the wonder that is Rebirth Ever Crisis and the cute extra/bonus scene they added of Aerith and Cloud coming to get her.

Ever Crisis ... it's been interesting to say the least. They are currently doing a Rebirth crossover and it is the Loveless event with behind the scenes extras. It starts off with the start of the event, it is the full HD cutscene from Rebirth, Chapter 12 of Cloud at Ghost Hotel, Aerith coming to the hotel to get him. So Chapter 12 Aerith date scenario basically. It continues as they go to the theatre where everyone else is, they do the VR and the stuff happens. Aerith gets accepted as the Rosa for the song. Then it branches out in the EC additions.

It's a super cute event featuring Yuffie, Barret and Red as well as Cloud and Aerith. Cloud, Aerith, Barret, Red, go off into VR "green space" to practice. Cloud does his own practice, Barret posits this is because Cloud wants to nail his part and put the rest of them to save. Barret and Red are nervous so Yuffie sneaks behind the scenes in her idol outfit to help them out. Aerith provides encouragement and support.

After the extra/bonus scene with Aerith, and Cloud at the end, it proceeds to the main event. Again this is the Rebirth main scenario with HD cutscenes. Cloud as Alphreid, Aerith as Rosa.

It's basically everything, includes the "chance encounter, divining your future with Rosa" stuff and the Cloud and Aerith dance hold/spin/almost kiss. There's no option to pick Barret/Red here like in Rebirth though.

Then the "Grand Finale", Cloud and Aerith fighting as Alphreid and Rosa, respectively, and together. The victory line, they even include the "Proof indeed that love conquers all does it not?" line that you get in Rebirth S rank.

Then the Alphreid/Rosa farewell scenes, they make their promise, etc.

Aerith sings her song of course, and finally the end of the event. The event ends with the cutscene from Rebirth of Cloud and Aerith about to go ride the Skywheel together, the Skywheel announcement. After going through the full event, and beating this final stage you get the title "Promise" awarded.

**

There's been a fair bit of marketing for this event, the Rebirth cross over and coinciding with the PC release in January, from the promos leading up to release including featuring the Loveless almost kiss with Cloud and Aerith, maintained during the event via the social media teams marketing for the event on X, etc, to Square Enix emails sending you a "ticket" inviting you to a "showing of Loveless" with an image of Aerith "starring Aerith Gainsborough as Rosa"

**

So one might think CAs are rolling in it, one might be forgiven for thinking CA got the lion's share here, they are definitely pushing Aerith as canon Rosa right? They are giving no choice but for players to watch through and definitely see the Aerith Chapter 12 date and the Loveless play featuring her?

Irrespective of endgame I was happy, and celebrating, thinking they were celebrating and recognising CA with the event, it's actual Rebirth cross over so maybe a bit more serious and canon that they go with that for making more sense with Rebirth story and a wider audience will have to see CA date and Loveless section, I think maybe I'm not crazy and CA is a ship, and people will see people didn't just pull CA out of their asses or something.

Since this event was released in stages, it really did seem they were focusing Aerith at first so I'm not going to beat myself up too much.

The anniversary banners with the matching Cloud and Tifa Bahamut outfits?, they are now rerunning them (prior to the next half anniversary for EC coming up in March), Cloti banner with the matching Bahamut outfits featuring both characters.

Tifa isn't in the Loveless event in Ever Crisis for the most part (she's in the audience) but you get items to exchange for event weapons, for upgrading Tifa's you get the "Princess" and Rosa titles.

So in the end CTs do get more content to enjoy, everyone's eating, with no-one going hungry.

I suppose again this is their way of keeping things "balanced/fair" and not leaving anyone out.

**

Sorry for the lengthy post, I just wanted to detail things as best as I could remember, as well as I could.

With Cait Sith/Fool talking about a chance encounter and Aerith in EC again giving a little blurb about chance encounters in her speech, that was quite poignant to me.

 

[Eerie]

Nah this event is shit for any Tifa fan, it's absolutely infuriating how they're ignoring one of the heroine for a FFVII CROSSOVER (don't remind me of last year where she was barely present and it was all about Sephiroth). There's zero fairness and the bias that both Toriyama and Ishikawa have towards Aerith shows. Not only that but it's also somehow half arsed, with Cloud not even getting the recognition he should have.

And WORST, they treat Barret like SHIT for HIS month. I'm super mad at them.

 

[lyingbanana]

So the LTD is basically about getting lost in the details huh.
The bigger picture shows one path that works.
Perhaps we will forever disagree in some details and intentions because thats how art is.

 

[Maidenofwar]

@Eerie I think you might be right, I forgot to mention "Words Drowned by Fireworks (HA)" is added to the new bonus/extra scene with Cloud and Aerith too? I need to recheck since my hearing isn't that great.

Agreed about Barret as always, you're definitely right there.

 

[Skilganon]

You have to wonder, after Aerith dies in the EC storyline, what are they going to do? Are they going to just stop updates? If they continue, then there's no more excuses for dates and costumes and such. We have to assume they've thought that far ahead, but then again maybe they haven't.

EC isn't developed by SE, it's outsourced to a company called Aplibot. Therefore, they don't have as much oversight as an in-house team. It pretty much creates a third timeline(together with the OG and Remake).