SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[AncientGrim]

Nah this event is shit for any Tifa fan, it's absolutely infuriating how they're ignoring one of the heroine for a FFVII CROSSOVER (don't remind me of last year where she was barely present and it was all about Sephiroth). There's zero fairness and the bias that both Toriyama and Ishikawa have towards Aerith shows. Not only that but it's also somehow half arsed, with Cloud not even getting the recognition he should have.

And WORST, they treat Barret like SHIT for HIS month. I'm super mad at them.

Yeah and this coming not long after the whole Title Card fiasco that initially was skewed so ridiculously in favour of Aerith that it was obviously a biased mistranslation, it’s kind of hard to shake off the overall sense that the teams or people in charge of stuff like this for Ever Crisis are just set on not caring at all about fairness among characters, and by extension, those character’s fans.

The 1st anniversary image that showed up to that point all the various outfits for the characters was extremely telling, as Barret, Nanaki, and Cait Sith all only had 1 costume.

Playing Ever Crisis you can kind of come away with a very warped view of the sense of direction for the compilation and by extension the Retrilogy, because it’s just so at odds with what Remake and Rebirth have been doing. It’s hard not to think it’s due to the different sensibilities from the people in charge, and who specifically oversees story in the Retrilogy, and who is directing and in charge of the Ever Crisis events.

Because right now the main story of Final Fantasy VII being retold in Ever Crisis has reached the point of only really having one more scenario left before Aerith dies. And because it’s very much adapting the original FFVII story, then that would mean all future chapters for it in Ever Crisis wouldn’t feature Aerith at all, because she no longer appears in the story aside from at the very end.

So maybe this is why the recent Rebirth crossover so heavily zeroes in on Aerith, and the Loveless play and Gold Saucer. Which in both OG and Rebirth are kind of the final moments for Aerith and Cloud, and the rest of the party all together, before they go to the Temple of the Ancients and then Forgotten Capital.

Because soon there isn’t going to be story chapters for the FFVII story with Aerith involved.

But are they really going to just completely cut Aerith out of the game and all future seasonal events and stories?!

Because even those non canon, What If seasonal event scenarios only feature the characters as they’ve been unlocked in the main FFVII story.

To start with those seasonal events only had Cloud, Barret, Tifa, Aerith, and Nanaki. Because only the Midgar stuff had been released so far.

But as the main story of FFVII was retold in EC, and each time a party member appeared in the main story, then they would also start appearing in the seasonal events, as we’ve seen with Yuffie, then Cait Sith, and more recently Vincent. Same for Zack and even Sephiroth and some of the First Soldier characters, due to Crisis Core and First Soldier also having story updates.

So when/if Ever Crisis finally does get to Aerith’s death in the FFVII chapters, will they stop with the future content for her?

Or are they going to keep FFVII on hold indefinitely for now, and focus instead on Crisis Core, First Soldier, other compilation titles, so that they can continue to feature Aerith in events and stories and have her get more costumes?

Whichever of these two ways they are going take it will I think ultimately show where their sensibilities towards the story lie.

 

[Eerie]

Nah even when she dies she’s still going to be in the events. Definitely. They’ve pushed her character so much that she’s become absolutely necessary as a character to have in your pool, while other characters are really falling behind. Some you don’t want to play even, for you’d be limiting yourself.

 

[AncientGrim]

If this does indeed happen, curious as to how they justify it, beyond just hand waving it all away because of the portals and Lifestream etc.

It would be perhaps more infuriating for those wanting to see other characters finally get their due, only for Aerith, who has been promoted and pushed so heavily, to still be getting this treatment even after her death in the story.

Ever Crisis so far seems to have fuelled and further muddied the whole LTD far more then either Remake or Rebirth.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Sorry, I'll answer to a few old posts and I probably forgot a few others I wanted to answer to, lol. XD The thread moves fast when it moves, lol.

Yeah for me and this is about anything in media actually I usually always figure out the endgame or end of a movie or whatever pretty quick. I've always been that way.

So I need a reason to be invested besides a relationship that I know will happen because I figured it out early on. I prefer not knowing actually 90% of the time. I don't like destiny anything it feels too .. predictable? Contrived?

Like I need my characters to not just earn something because destiny dictated it as so. I need them to suffer and fight for it against all odds pulling them apart.

"And it's always been you" or "childhood friends with a promise" means there's no odds or that it doesn't matter the odds.
It's always been them, they promised. The story is hinting with a hammer on the head that they WILL end up together no question. That's destiny. Because there is no other path. Especially when you see one character not fall in love but be in love from the start. That can not be anymore destined. And I don't know why people don't see it that way. The childhood friends to lovers especially who promised trope is a neon flashing light that's way too bright. So obvious and certain that it hurts my eyes.

I prefer the opposite. And I prefer the uncertainty. There are infinite paths were they could have totally not ended up together, where they can't, because it was not always them, or maybe they never imagined it would be them but it's them in the end. Or they don't belong together but choose eachother anyway. That's my ideal romance entertainment.

And when you make two characters promise since childhood that goes out the window. It becomes definite. Which is why I'm so against it lol sorry.

So then comes the engagement part you mentioned.

So why am I here? I know the ending. The story is still playing so what else is there to keep my interest longer than 5 minutes? That's what I look for in these things.

And see yeah no I don't want anyone down bad for anyone else.
To me that already tells me the end, it shows me no chase, no struggle. They love eachother and always have. The end.

So why am I here? What else you got besides being down bad for eachother? Why should I personally invest myself in why you're down bad to eachother? That's the question. One I think The Lifestream scene can answer. And one I think ACC answered.

And sadly none of those tropes except for knight and princess maybe appeal to me. Those stories are a dime a dozen. I read them all already. So I do hope there's more than that for ZA.
I'm going to need way more than that to keep my interest.

And as I said, I'm like this with all media. It's not that the couples and tropes that for me are been there done that what else? aren't peak engagement to others that aren't me. I'm sure they are. Engagement is a really personal experience to each person. I don't think we can say anything is engaging or not across the board.
I am just one person in the audience who figured it out too quickly in the first act and now I'm waiting to be amazed. Which is why I actually like when stories makes me question.

You know, I'm actually the same way. I usually figure out the endgame in the first episode or chapter (or the first time the characters interact), and so far I've only been wrong once, lol.

It's just never bothered me or lessened my fun for a pairing because well-written pairings are well-written even if they are obvious. I mean, if you really get down to it, all relationships in media are "destiny" if by destiny we mean the author.

As for childhood promises being a defining neon sign, it's not always. Some stories make fun of the childhood promise trope. Like, two childhood friends reunite when they're older, the one who was gone reminds the other character about their "promise together", and the other character is all "What??" XD

And you could say they tried to put some uncertainty in CT since CT were separated for years and years, Cloud's personality was in shambles, he didn't even remember the promise first, and he wasn't even sure if he was real or if he would ever wake up from his mako coma. I mean, yes, you can say it was destiny for them to end up together but if you flip it around, you could just as easily say that CA was destiny if they had been the intended endgame?

(Probably not expressing myself well here but I hope I'm making myself at least a bit intelligible, lol.)

CA, on the other hand, has the "opposites attract" (which can be nice when done right, but mostly, I hate that trope)

I've found out that it isn't so much "opposite attracts" that it's "complementary opposites attract". Like, there have to be some commonalities and differences for the characters to really work for me. Otherwise, I'm just "I have to suspend my disbelief way too hard for this", lol.

CA also had some cute scenes -- the photography scene comes to mind -- but I'm not one to count every single moment a pair shares as shippy.

Me too! I usually don't view my ships' interactions as "shippy" but overall more like, are their interactions intriguing or compelling?

The point is that people don’t get as emotionally invested in silent protagonist romances / choose your own adventure romances, because there’s less meaning in these romances to argue over.

You know, I think the irony in that is that when people reduce every interaction, character trait and emotion into shipping, particularly to "win", they sort of do turn one or both characters in that ship into blank slates, lol.

No one wants to be given a choice only to later be told, "No, you don't get a choice, actually."

Which is why I have problems with so many games that start with "player choice matters". :')

This is the reason why the LTD is still furiously ongoing, because we have on one side people who are willing to distort the story and the characters (the extreme ones), and on the other side we have people who stick to the story and are very attached to how Cloud himself is depicted. This is a fight over visions of characters that go way beyond simple shipping.

You know, I honestly don't care what people ship. Even problematic ships are like, whatever, have fun? But for some reason, if people actively lie about their ships, it really cranks me, lol. I can't even lie about my own ships, no matter how much fun I have with them, lol.

I don't think they knew how bad the CT relationship looked in AC, which is why they made ACC which changed a lot of the perception around Cloud's affections. But now we have two versions, which complicates things to no end.

You know, you keep saying these things -- like how vague Square has kept CT and CA and the LTD -- but you never really provide examples of how and where? I mean, Aerith is dead with the boyfriend she longed to see throughout FF7? Cloud lives on with the girl he confessed his feelings to and spent his last night on the planet with? How is that vague? Because they don't kiss on screen? Well, CT kissed on screen in Rebirth and somehow the LTD is still super vague? So is it really the devs' fault or is it the audience's fault for not wanting to get it?

For example, how does AC and ACC complicate things? The other one has complete on the title? Ergo, it's the complete version with a few added scenes, not an entire plot change. And from what I remember, it didn't even add all that many scenes to AC? Doesn't Zack and Aerith's adopting Cloud talk still happen? And them fading away into the Lifestream together?

Most of these things are only confusing if you view them through confirmation bias which is no way to view stories, to be honest.

EDIT: A few mistakes.

 

[Xannis]

I don't expect anything in either the games or dev interviews will ever clear this up.

We'll see of course ....in 3 years. Ugh, fuck you again SE for making this an installment game. I think it matters to state that had you asked me where I thought the LTD was going to go when Remake was announced I would have answered similar to this. In other words I would have agreed with this statement circa 2015.

However, after playing Remake and Rebirth I've come to believe with relative confidence they're going to be pretty clear about who's into who. In no particular order of importance individually:

• Re-Trilogy has seriously dialed up the 'ship tension between Cloud and Tifa. Scenes like the Train Roll and Gongaga Almost Kiss are highly deliberate and in a narrative sense can only be there if they're going to you know what later. These aren't throw away or Fan Service scenes. I don't think the Highwind Scene is going to be vague this time around.
• I don't personally see the same equality in the potential matches leading up to the LS sequence. Meaning I thought in OG you very much could act more interested in Aerith vs Tifa. I don't see that same ability in Re-Trilogy.
  • Or to be more specific I thought you could be more "into" Aerith in OG vs the distinct sister/friend vibe I'm picking up in Re-Trilogy.
• If "Fan Service" was the goal they could have used any number of wanks to give CA a kiss. They could have had it happen in the LS, as part of the Wall Market Sequence, take your pick. They could have made it happen without costing anything and they didn't.
• I can't see a scenario where Zack doesn't "find" Aerith. I also can't see a world where that re-union is a handshake and a "Good to see you old buddy" followed by an awkward pause. In other words I think their re-union is going to be romantically charged. High possibility of a ZA kiss IMO.

Those are just the largest/more important ones too. There are all kinds of little stuff salted in I see. Like the conversations that happen around the Costa Del Sol "Date" in Rebirth. Man play through that one back to back and tell me Cloud isn't awkward as f**k with Aerith collecting sea shells and completely at home with Tifa hunting monsters. Anyway, I think they've laid the groundwork for clearly wrapping this up and a lot of it they didn't have/need to do.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Square Enix has enough oversight with Ever Crisis. As Eerie said Toriyama works for it. The character designer shows Nomura designs to approve, and they create new official arts for the characters.

https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fnew-official-art-for-ever-crisis-rebirth-collaboration-no-v0-4u8wja93pxge1.jpeg%3Fwidth%3D640%26crop%3Dsmart%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3Dd92811effa38d8c370ec81bd3f46f69059b35d3f&rdt=64298

They've said they expect there to be part 3 news by EC second anniversary and there might be some spoilers added to EC for part 3. They're definitely paying attention to it and I doubt they'd allow Applibot to run anything too outlandish.

It's actually Aerith's birthday this month and this is the birthday card SE made and reposted on their social media sites (one of the devs wishing her special day is filled with happiness)

x.com

x.com

Like I said, I think I've said it's like Aerith is their poster girl, like Terra is poster girl for FFVI. Tifa, it seems like sometimes gets the "Celes" treatment. Celes is supposed to be co-main heroine also but I remember the FFVI debates too, Terra or Celes, which is main heroine, etc.

I definitely understand and empathise/sympathise if another character is your favourite, your first and foremost and it seems like there might be some favouritism going on towards another character. The thing is I would also like to get new outfits for Tifa and other characters but I can't because I want to get all Aerith's outfits and they are releasing them back to back, but not only this sometimes I would just go to her outfit and stop but now because they are given her more limited limit break weapons I'm supposed to get more of those for overboosting the weapons to keep up with meta as well? I'm not breaking the bank for this game, I get the booster passes, sometimes the season passes, maybe the rare special occasion some kind of other pack. I would love to run an all girl party with a wide range of outfits and meta fitting weapons but that's just not happening at this point. It's partially my fault for not planning properly but it is what it is at this point. The gap between Aerith and my other characters is astounding. I would say maybe the next couple of months she won't get new outfits but if they rerun Aerith/Yuffie Bahamut stuff after the Cloud/Tifa banner I missed out getting her Bahamut Rod to at least ob6 last time. Aerith is meta for healing/support but I like to do other things with her so I wish they would rerun/do more stuff for Matt too. I do love Aerith stuff but also let me breath? haha.

I use Aerith for magic because my Sephiroth isn't stacked, so I try to build Red or Matt as alt support/heal, and I've been trying to build Tifa for stuff also but. Game thinks Aerith/ Seph/Yuffie are my best characters for some reason. Poor Cait, I haven't really been able to build him which makes me sad.

I do expect SE to roll this game till part 3 first trailer/naming/announcement at least, then we'll see.

 

[AncientGrim]

Like I said, I think I've said it's like Aerith is their poster girl, like Terra is poster girl for FFVI. Tifa, it seems like sometimes gets the "Celes" treatment. Celes is supposed to be co-main heroine also but I remember the FFVI debates too, Terra or Celes, which is main heroine, etc.

You bring up a good point here, which is why I think there was so much confusion and upset about Tifa getting Sabin’s costume for the VI crossover in EC, solely because of them both being “monks”. And I use that term loosely because both VI and VII were loose with the rigid class system in previous FF’s.

But not wanting to dredge that prior EC controversy back up, I do instead think it is interesting how there are so many parallels, for Terra and Celes, and Aerith and Tifa respectively, as dual heroines.

Aerith, like Terra, is pretty much as you say the poster girl for their respective games.

Tifa, like Celes, ends up as the love interest for the male hero, Cloud and Locke respectively.

And similarly too, the first two thirds of both VI and VII (less for the OG in VII’s case, more so with Remake and Rebirth) have Terra and Aerith very firmly front and centre in the story.

Only for the third act/half of both games having the other heroine, Celes and Tifa, take centre stage, and for their romantic subplots with Locke and Cloud to be resolved.

I think in as much as Terra helped shaped on some ways the character Aerith would go on to be, similarly the characters and romance of Locke and Celes helped pave the way for Cloud and Tifa.

And in the next few games we see various spins off of this, with romances such as Squall and Rinoa (one’s mileage will vary as to whether this romance feels more Cloud and Aerith adjacent, or more in line with Cloud and Tifa) as well as Zidane and Garnet

As for Aerith and Zack’s relationship, it’s for me very hard not to see how it inspired hugely the Yuna and Tidus relationship and romance in X

 

[Skilganon]

You know, you keep saying these things -- like how vague Square has kept CT and CA and the LTD -- but you never really provide examples of how and where? I mean, Aerith is dead with the boyfriend she longed to see throughout FF7? Cloud lives on with the girl he confessed his feelings to and spent his last night on the planet with? How is that vague? Because they don't kiss on screen? Well, CT kissed on screen in Rebirth and somehow the LTD is still super vague? So is it really the devs' fault or is it the audience's fault for not wanting to get it?

It don't think it's controversial to say that CT's relationship looks bad in AC. That's why so many people on this forum want a Remake of AC with this new updated, more sensitive, and better voice-acted Cloud Strife. I would put myself in this category.

I don't think it looks bad because the devs were/are biased toward CA(That would be an example of looking at everything with shipping goggles on). Judging from interviews at the time, I just don't think they cared all that much about how the romance was depicted. It simply wasn't a priority for them in the creation of AC. They were more concerned about action scenes and pushing the envelope for CGI.

It's also a consequence of their mixed-media style of story-telling. Most of the context for AC was in the OTWTAS short story collection, and that came out after the movie, which is mind-boggling to think about.

Shippers tend to look at the romance in FFVII as a zero-sum competition between Tifa and Aerith. Whenever Cloud ignores Aerith, it's considered a "win" for Tifa and vice versa. This conception is completely the fault of fan communities. The devs don't think this way about their characters at all. I don't think they expected CA shippers to say Cloud abandons Tifa in AC and use that as a "win" for Aerith, yet they've been doing that for the past 20+ years.

The devs don't want fans to pit their characters against eachother, but I would argue: It's a natural consequence of how the story is structured. The LTD is a consequence of Aerith's death leaving no resolution to the CA relationship, along with Cloud's identity crisis creating doubt over the sincerity of his actions pre-lifestream. The Highwind scene being optional is also a factor.

You'd think with the opportunity for a Remake in the modern era, SE would want to clarify these relationships. Have they succeeded? I would say this entirely new focus on Remaking Fate has thrown everything out the window. Many CA shippers see this as a positive sign that Cloud will traverse space and time to be with Aerith forevermore. How much does the OG timeline matter now that time-travel has been introduced to the story? I don't think the story is going to deviate all that much from the OG. But the people who do think it will deviate, are using the time-travel bs as evidence. Who can argue against that?

If the OG timeline solidified the CT relationship, then the introduction of alternate universes can only make it less certain. I would say this is prime example of "keeping things vague". The Remake series offers the possibility of Remaking the entire canon.

 

[null]

Honestly, I think everything but the sex part of the original HA Highwind scene already happened. Cloud already reaffirmed the promise, they’ve already opened up to each other, and when things were heating up their friends were spying on them. All non-optional. Nothing left to do in part 3 except just get it on… with no preamble.

So far ReTrilogy has been the polar opposite of vague. They’ve already clarified the relationships like crazy. Nojima wrote books clarifying them further. The player choice system is no longer confusing and stupid. They‘re not remaking the entire canon because they’ve literally said they’re not doing that.

One thing I’m sure of is that Tifa could give birth and folks will call it inconclusive without a DNA test. That doesn’t mean it was vague. We shouldn’t worry about having everyone on the same page in the end. It just isn’t a useful metric in this fandom.

 

[lyingbanana]

The Highwind scene being optional is also a factor.

One nitpick, the Highwind scene is not optional, its variable.

Which reminds me of all the people who act like if the HA and LA versions are opposite of one another, when its just more "complete" version of the other.
Its more like a reward for players to get the best outcome just like the dates now in Rebirth, including the last Aerith date. None are opposite just a "better" version.

 

[Ryeleigh]

It don't think it's controversial to say that CT's relationship looks bad in AC. That's why so many people on this forum want a Remake of AC with this new updated, more sensitive, and better voice-acted Cloud Strife. I would put myself in this category.

I wouldn't say it's controversial. But I think that Re-Trilogy has done more to undermine AC characterizations since Re-Trilogy directly contradicts AC characterizations. In Re-Trilogy we see Cloud open up to and confide only to Tifa about his fears and insecurities. But supposedly in AC, he regresses so hard that he doesn't even talk to Tifa? Please.

Besides, that's not the only thing you said. You also said that "having two versions of AC/ACC complicates things to no end" and yet here you are, hankering for a third one too? Never mind that there are OG/Re-Trilogy, OG CC/Remake CC, but these don't complicate things to no end?

I don't think it looks bad because the devs were/are biased toward CA(That would be an example of looking at everything with shipping goggles on). Judging from interviews at the time, I just don't think they cared all that much about how the romance was depicted. It simply wasn't a priority for them in the creation of AC. They were more concerned about action scenes and pushing the envelope for CGI.

As you said, romance wasn't a priority in AC. I would say it wasn't a priority even in the OG. To the devs, the relationships were most likely a given which is why they haven't put much thought into how "fans would perceive things". (Not to mention you literally cannot stop people from perceiving things "wrong".)

AC is basically about Cloud speedrunning his FF7 arc. And from what I remember, they just added more Zack into ACC, but otherwise the two versions are the same?

Aerith is still dead with the boyfriend she longed to see. Cloud unwittingly called her mother and she joked with the boyfriend that he's too big to adopt. Cloud is still alive with Tifa, living and raising two children together. They're still together in Dirge of Cerberus.

Again, I'm not seeing the vagueness?

Shippers tend to look at the romance in FFVII as a zero-sum competition between Tifa and Aerith. Whenever Cloud ignores Aerith, it's considered a "win" for Tifa and vice versa. This conception is completely the fault of fan communities. The devs don't think this way about their characters at all. I don't think they expected CA shippers to say Cloud abandons Tifa in AC and use that as a "win" for Aerith, yet they've been doing that for the past 20+ years.

Okay? And? What does it matter what extreme CAs say?

The devs don't want fans to pit their characters against eachother, but I would argue: It's a natural consequence of how the story is structured. The LTD is a consequence of Aerith's death leaving no resolution to the CA relationship, along with Cloud's identity crisis creating doubt over the sincerity of his actions pre-lifestream. The Highwind scene being optional is also a factor.

The Highwind scene isn't optional. You get it regardless if you "romanced" Aerith (or Barret or Yuffie). This is why I keep saying that anyone with even rudimentary knowledge of dating sim games would know that FF7 is a terrible dating sim game.

I mean, imagine Mass Effect. You're romancing Liara and then the game non-optionally kills her off and non-optionally gives you a romantic resolution and sex scene with Tali? Sounds ridiculous, right?

So either FF7 is a dating sim game, which it would be terrible at, or it isn't a dating sim game.

You'd think with the opportunity for a Remake in the modern era, SE would want to clarify these relationships. Have they succeeded? I would say this entirely new focus on Remaking Fate has thrown everything out the window. Many CA shippers see this as a positive sign that Cloud will traverse space and time to be with Aerith forevermore. How much does the OG timeline matter now that time-travel has been introduced to the story? I don't think the story is going to deviate all that much from the OG. But the people who do think it will deviate, are using the time-travel bs as evidence. Who can argue against that?

I do agree with one thing. I think the way Re-Trilogy added the Whispers and concept of Fate was badly done.

Other than that, why do you care what or why CA shippers see something? I mean, Cloud is literally not going to "traverse space and time to be with Aerith forevermore"? It's literally Zack doing that? I ask this sincerely, what do you think the devs are actually doing with Zack? That he'll reunite with Aerith, they'll shake hands, be all "hey, buddy, long time no see" and then Aerith goes on to pine after Cloud, whom Zack died to save on his way to reunite with her, and Zack is back just to pine after Aerith?

Why do you need to or want to argue with people who apparently think that? As per the saying, "you can't argue people out of beliefs they didn't argue themselves into"?

I'll be upfront with you: I honestly don't get what you're getting at half the time, lol? I mean, you keep bringing up CA "theories" from this point of view "oh, why won't anyone think of the poor CAs? How they will be ever so disappointed when the game doesn't go their way because Square is unintentionally but intentionally stringing them along for money and profit and not to upset anyone but they will still upset everyone?" And whenever someone either debunks those theories or asks you "where are they doing that" you bring up yet another CA theory, lol?

And I've said this before but stories are made for the General Audience. Shippers are only a tiny fraction of that General Audience and even that tiny fraction is divided into other fractions aka ships. Not "everybody" will be disappointed because everybody is not a shipper. And not every shipper is into shipping just to prove that their ships are canon.

I've also asked this before but I haven't received an answer yet: what is this perfect FF7 for you that never gives the wrong impression to anyone and absolutely everyone has the same interpretation of?

If the OG timeline solidified the CT relationship, then the introduction of alternate universes can only make it less certain. I would say this is prime example of "keeping things vague". The Remake series offers the possibility of Remaking the entire canon.

Okay? And? Are they actually doing it? How does the introduction of alternate universes make things less certain? What if in every universe Cloud still chooses Tifa or at the very least he never chooses Aerith? Also, Zack?

Like, I don't know. Maybe you should spend less time worrying about CA theories and more time enjoying CT or something else you like?

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Sorry, I'll answer to a few old posts and I probably forgot a few others I wanted to answer to, lol. XD The thread moves fast when it moves, lol.


You know, I'm actually the same way. I usually figure out the endgame in the first episode or chapter (or the first time the characters interact), and so far I've only been wrong once, lol.

It's just never bothered me or lessened my fun for a pairing because well-written pairings are well-written even if they are obvious. I mean, if you really get down to it, all relationships in media are "destiny" if by destiny we mean the author.

As for childhood promises being a defining neon sign, it's not always. Some stories make fun of the childhood promise trope. Like, two childhood friends reunite when they're older, the one who was gone reminds the other character about their "promise together", and the other character is all "What??" XD

And you could say they tried to put some uncertainty in CT since CT were separated for years and years, Cloud's personality was in shambles, he didn't even remember the promise first, and he wasn't even sure if he was real or if he would ever wake up from his mako coma. I mean, yes, you can say it was destiny for them to end up together but if you flip it around, you could just as easily say that CA was destiny if they had been the intended endgame?

(Probably not expressing myself well here but I hope I'm making myself at least a bit intelligible, lol.)

Hmmm I'm sorry but there is no way I can see it that way, that CT has uncertainty. Maybe in OG which was uncertain for the first disk. But the moment we got that childhood promise scene I knew where it was going. I liked Aerith and wanted her for endgame but she died and I knew where it was going when they made Tifa search for Cloud in Disk 2.

The CA "destiny" theme is completely different.

CA by comparison you can say their meeting is "destined" as SE says but everything else about them is the opposite. They're the definition of torn apart BY fate. While CT are pushed TOGETHER by fate.
CT are the only ones left of their village, the only ones who know the truth of the Nibelheim incident. They meet each other years later and spend the last night before the world ends together? Come on lol. There is very little uncertainty in CT even in OG.

CA on the other hand have the girl die, and before that we have her being fated to save the planet because she's the last cetra she couldn't live a normal life if she wanted to. That's why so many CAs are happy with the idea of DEFYING fate. Because CA's story is one where destiny is in the way of their story.

So no if they had made CA endgame and everything else stayed the same I wouldn't say I'd have the same problem with the destiny aspect because it's so different. They wouldn't have been destined to be together, they would have had to fight destiny for it. And as I just pointed out it's basically the opposite of your usual fated encounter with all odds against them.
CA don't have a resolution either, we never get any scene where Cloud talks about how he feels about Aerith besides the monologue he gives at her death scene and after that he wants to save the planet for her and thinks he can meet her.
Then end story ends with Tifa in his arms as they survive.
It's no neon flashing sign hitting us with a hammer that there's going to be some fulfillment of some promise. It's very subtle and full of mystery because their story together ends before it barely starts. Especially since there is the literal mystery in the way of Zack and his connection to Aerith and Cloud. Which we only resolve after her death what is happening there. Everything about CA is uncertainty to the point in ReTrilogy the focus on Aerith is uncertainty of even her own death.

We are at least told in COW he "I have you this time" about Tifa at a point after the Ultimania at least says he confirmed mutual feelings with her. (Gee, I wonder what this could possibly mean? So uncertain! No actually it's just another flashing light. And just because people refuse to see it doesn't make it any less blinding.)

The mystery aspect in CT is there to hide the plot twist reveal sure. Yet is no mystery with CT beyond oh Cloud has identity issues. Will Tifa tell him? Will he find out? I mean of course he will if this story is to end. The premise of their story is not that mysterious it's obvious. What's not obvious is that he was there in Nibelheim as a grunt and that's why she doesn't remember him. Which is why I think the LS is the most interesting part.

But again the reveal is he kept the childhood promise. Which ...of course he kept the childhood promise. They always keep the childhood promise. Was anyone really expecting otherwise?

Childhood Friends is not usually endgame you're right, but when they add a promise to it it's pretty obvious they're going somewhere with it. So I would say any "uncertainty" about CT lasts as long as disk 1. And in Remake and ReTrilogy is not even there.

CT is your typical romance story of childhood friends reuniting that just happens to take place in a post apocalyptic JRPG.
I can literally find any other well written romance story about childhood friends reuniting and watch that instead. I play so many amazing games JRPGs too. There are so many childhood friends to lovers stories. So it being well written is not enough for me.
It needs to also have something else that other childhood friends to lovers stories don't have to keep me invested, and for me that something else was the LS reveals and AC/ACC.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Hmmm I'm sorry but there is no way I can see it that way, that CT has uncertainty. Maybe in OG which was uncertain for the first disk. But the moment we got that childhood promise scene I knew where it was going. I liked Aerith and wanted her for endgame but she died and I knew where it was going when they made Tifa search for Cloud in Disk 2.

The CA "destiny" theme is completely different.

CA by comparison you can say their meeting is "destined" as SE says but everything else about them is the opposite. They're the definition of torn apart BY fate. While CT are pushed TOGETHER by fate.
CT are the only ones left of their village, the only ones who know the truth of the Nibelheim incident. They meet each other years later and spend the last night before the world ends together? Come on lol. There is very little uncertainty in CT even in OG.

CA on the other hand have the girl die, and before that we have her being fated to save the planet because she's the last cetra she couldn't live a normal life if she wanted to. That's why so many CAs are happy with the idea of DEFYING fate. Because CA's story is one where destiny is in the way of their story.

So no if they had made CA endgame and everything else stayed the same I wouldn't say I'd have the same problem with the destiny aspect because it's so different. They wouldn't have been destined to be together, they would have had to fight destiny for it. And as I just pointed out it's basically the opposite of your usual fated encounter with all odds against them.
CA don't have a resolution either, we never get any scene where Cloud talks about how he feels about Aerith besides the monologue he gives at her death scene and after that he wants to save the planet for her and thinks he can meet her.
Then end story ends with Tifa in his arms as they survive.
It's no neon flashing sign hitting us with a hammer that there's going to be some fulfillment of some promise. It's very subtle and full of mystery because their story together ends before it barely starts. Especially since there is the literal mystery in the way of Zack and his connection to Aerith and Cloud. Which we only resolve after her death what is happening there. Everything about CA is uncertainty to the point in ReTrilogy the focus on Aerith is uncertainty of even her own death.

We are at least told in COW he "I have you this time" about Tifa at a point after the Ultimania at least says he confirmed mutual feelings with her. (Gee, I wonder what this could possibly mean? So uncertain! No actually it's just another flashing light. And just because people refuse to see it doesn't make it any less blinding.)

The mystery aspect in CT is there to hide the plot twist reveal sure. Yet is no mystery with CT beyond oh Cloud has identity issues. Will Tifa tell him? Will he find out? I mean of course he will if this story is to end. The premise of their story is not that mysterious it's obvious. What's not obvious is that he was there in Nibelheim as a grunt and that's why she doesn't remember him. Which is why I think the LS is the most interesting part.

But again the reveal is he kept the childhood promise. Which ...of course he kept the childhood promise. They always keep the childhood promise. Was anyone really expecting otherwise?

Childhood Friends is not usually endgame you're right, but when they add a promise to it it's pretty obvious they're going somewhere with it. So I would say any "uncertainty" about CT lasts as long as disk 1. And in Remake and ReTrilogy is not even there.

CT is your typical romance story of childhood friends reuniting that just happens to take place in a post apocalyptic JRPG.
I can literally find any other well written romance story about childhood friends reuniting and watch that instead. I play so many amazing games JRPGs too. There are so many childhood friends to lovers stories. So it being well written is not enough for me.
It needs to also have something else that other childhood friends to lovers stories don't have to keep me invested, and for me that something else was the LS reveals and AC/ACC.

I think I kind of get what you're saying but I don't think I can word it well?

Like, to me canon couples aren't really uncertain, regardless of story, because canon couples are intended by the author from the beginning? Unless the author decides it at the last minute which would usually make it a badly-written couple?

So it kind of sounds like it isn't so much about destiny or not? Because even if CA was a couple "torn apart by destiny", it would still be "destiny" if they'd found their way back together because that's what the author intended? (If I'm making any kind of sense, lmao.) So it kind of sounds like it's more about the ambiguity left in their relationship?

I might be interpreting your words totally wrong, though, so sorry about that!

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

I think I kind of get what you're saying but I don't think I can word it well?

Like, to me canon couples aren't really uncertain, regardless of story, because canon couples are intended by the author from the beginning? Unless the author decides it at the last minute which would usually make it a badly-written couple?

So it kind of sounds like it isn't so much about destiny or not? Because even if CA was a couple "torn apart by destiny", it would still be "destiny" if they'd found their way back together because that's what the author intended? (If I'm making any kind of sense, lmao.) So it kind of sounds like it's more about the ambiguity left in their relationship?

I might be interpreting your words totally wrong, though, so sorry about that!

Basically for lack of better words even if a couple is canon there can be uncertainty surrounding them. An author can hide from the audience that the couple will be endgame. Many stories do this.

I'm not talking about destiny as author intent. Destiny as a theme. I don't like it. Now "Fighting against Destiny" as a theme is more interesting to me.

With CT they have so many of the cliche tropes of Childhood Friends to Lovers that I found it completely unsurprising that they were endgame. And the promise was a giant flag. These childhood promise tropes are usually tied to destiny as a theme. Not intent always because usually we expect the childhood friends to lose if it's a typical dating sim type story or the childhood friend is a secondary character in a romance between other characters for example. But in Childhood Friends To Lovers stories we expect them to win of course because that's the premise. So I'm not talking about author intent.

So yeah I have a huge issue with Destiny the theme. CA is an example of Ships In The Night where they're not exactly destined to be together but impact and change eachother anyway. Ships In The Night by definition are not usually the endgame. So it's not really about Destiny but about meeting regardless of it.

 

[eleamaya]

CA by comparison you can say their meeting is "destined" as SE says but everything else about them is the opposite. They're the definition of torn apart BY fate. While CT are pushed TOGETHER by fate.

Suddenly, I'm like Aerith. She and I dont like the word "destiny" because the word "destiny" in this game is quite negative. That's why the game push you, drive you to defy it, even if we can't at the end. Now, I understand why Aerith prefer that their meeting is a chance, not destined.

Zack and Aerith's meeting is also worded as "fate encounter", at least in Ultimania. According to Nojima, they fall in love to each other at the first sight. Then these predestined events happened:

• Because Zack loves Aerith, he carries Cloud, whom he can't abandon, to Midgar
• Because Zack loves Aerith, with or without carrying Cloud, he would still want to return to Midgar to see her
• Because Zack wants to go back to Midgar to see her, he's ambushed at the city outskirt and meets his death
• Because Zack carries Cloud to Midgar, he gives Cloud his buster sword and passes his legacy
• Because Zack carries Cloud to Midgar, Cloud meets Aerith (another fate encounter)
• Because Aerith loves Zack, she's attracted to Cloud since she sees Zack in him (this is no debate because before Zack was created, Aerith seeing her first love in Cloud has always been the plot device)
• Because Aerith is attracted to Cloud and meet him again the same way she met Zack, she doesn't let him go till she's involved with AVALANCHE, captured by Turks, escapes, then set a journey to stop Sephiroth, and meets her death

(I'm one who thinks that dead or not, Aerith would still stop meteor... it's just that death doesn't stop her)

I'm not talking about destiny as author intent. Destiny as a theme. I don't like it. Fighting destiny as a theme is more destiny.

This is why, Cloti by anything, even if they're canon, I dont want to associate them with fate.
If Cleriths want to frame their ship as "destined couple" after "No Promises to Keep" then I laugh because Aerith herself dont want it, whether it's with Zack or Cloud. Destined to meet, destined to fall in love, but then destined to be torn apart by death. Even if Zack & Aerith reunited in death, they dont want themselves to die, they dont want either of them die. Heck, they literly fight against their own fate, for their future, that nothing is set in stone. Fate is cruel to them, but that's also what make them "destined" even if they hate the "D" word.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Also I want to comment on EC. I don't play it and I don't think I ever will but I play gacha games. I know gacha games and basically Applibot is pulling the oldest trick in the gacha company book. It has zero to do with canon or shipping or the story or love for certain characters. If you think they care about anything besides money you're going to be disappointed.

Aerith's being pushed for very simple reasons. Aerith's an iconic recognizable character people will spend money on and now is the best time for them to push her.

It's the best time to push her because Rebirth was supposed to be her tribute game. Now they have the attention of not just CAs but Aerith fans in general. Now they can get all the money from her fans very easily. And after part 3 comes out this chance of getting their money especially if they disappoint the fans that want her to live will go down significantly. By running her so much now they're convincing her fans "No, no we really love Aerith in this house" so they can keep them as customers for as long as possible.

Meanwhile they know Tifa sells. They know any time that they put out a Tifa banner they will get money. So why on Earth would they give Tifa fans what they want when they can drain the Aerith fans wallets now and run Tifa at any time and still make profit? And they can then push Tifa later when Pt 3 comes out and make double that because her fans would have been waiting for her even more. It's false scarcity, if you think they're shunning your favorite character there's a chance you'll spend more to see them.

Genshin just did this with Wish Chronicle after almost 2 years of not running several characters they are now on a banner that won't save your wishes so it's higher risk for rewards (meaning more incentive to spend now for a guaranteed) running alongside two others as a triple banner. Everyone in the community feels these characters have been "shunned" when all that it is they will grab triple the money now because they're now considered "rare".

Meanwhile they keep the other characters in their back pocket, by making running them rarer this ensures that there is demand for them. So any time they run them they will also get money.

This is about the money. They're doing what makes them the most money like how some gacha games won't run certain units for a whole year. While everyone is getting mad they are "shunning" the units they're just increasing the demand for them so when they do run they can run them aside a triple banner or something and guarantee profits.

"But giving other characters more and being fair will make them more money!"

Actually no it won't. Basically "shunning" your favorite characters makes them seem more valuable and increases incentives to pull on all their banners not just the ones you can afford.
And they can also increase the chances of selling other characters in this same way while getting money from the fans of the characters they are pushing. Being unfair gets them more profit that's why gacha is never about fairness.

I'm sorry to say gacha companies are gacha companies and they have the scummiest practices because it actually really works for them.

As for Barrett a lot of gacha companies tend to have an issue with racism. No surprise there sadly but true.

Anyone who thinks their choices are about anything such as love for their characters or the story or anything else besides making as much money as possible is going to be severely disappointed.

 

[Pasuwado]

Meanwhile they keep the other characters in their back pocket, by making running them rarer this ensures that there is demand for them. So any time they run them they will also get money.

This is about the money. They're doing what makes them the most money like how some gacha games won't run certain units for a whole year. While everyone is getting mad they are "shunning" the units they're just increasing the demand for them so when they do run they can run them aside a triple banner or something and guarantee profits.

That explains why Zack hasn't received a banner in almost a year. I found it strange that they were neglecting him, considering he's such a popular character, but according to the datamine, he'll be getting an insanely strong banner for the 1.5-year anniversary. In the end... it's all about money

 

[Eerie]

The thing is I would also like to get new outfits for Tifa and other characters but I can't because I want to get all Aerith's outfits and they are releasing them back to back, but not only this sometimes I would just go to her outfit and stop but now because they are given her more limited limit break weapons I'm supposed to get more of those for overboosting the weapons to keep up with meta as well? I'm not breaking the bank for this game, I get the booster passes, sometimes the season passes, maybe the rare special occasion some kind of other pack. I would love to run an all girl party with a wide range of outfits and meta fitting weapons but that's just not happening at this point. It's partially my fault for not planning properly but it is what it is at this point.

Yes, that's one big problem for this game. You're not allowed to play more than one or two characters fully if you want to really play and have all the outfits. I don't even have all Tifa or Cloud outfits (some were UGLY so I said no lol).

And from what I remember, they just added more Zack into ACC, but otherwise the two versions are the same?

They also added CT scenes, as well as Cloud talking with Marlene. I hate ACC, but to say it's unclear is WRONG. You could maybeeeeeeeee have a point with AC, from the credits, but they took away those which is very significant: they didn't want fans to misinterpret the credits as Cloud going to search for Aerith. So basically the devs killed CA in ACC. And to say there are two versions is also false, there is one original version and one director's cut. They both tell the same story. In ACC they're telling you "yes Cloud and Tifa are a couple, no Cloud doesn't love nor search for Aerith, she has the same importance to him than Zack has. THE END."

There's absolutely nothing inconclusive in that.

It's the best time to push her because Rebirth was supposed to be her tribute game. Now they have the attention of not just CAs but Aerith fans in general. Now they can get all the money from her fans very easily. And after part 3 comes out this chance of getting their money especially if they disappoint the fans that want her to live will go down significantly. By running her so much now they're convincing her fans "No, no we really love Aerith in this house" so they can keep them as customers for as long as possible.

About EC: they have been pushing Aerith since the beginning, and people are tired of her and more importantly, of how the game is evolving (limited banner after limited banner, characters and weapons that get unusable because they don't get updates...). They give Aerith the best weapons just to make sure people are forced to buy her. (even then they sometimes miss, proof is that Aerith is skip this month for whales). Anyway this game is doing pretty badly rn, and it's not only Aerith's fault lol.

Meanwhile they know Tifa sells. They know any time that they put out a Tifa banner they will get money. So why on Earth would they give Tifa fans what they want when they can drain the Aerith fans wallets now and run Tifa at any time and still make profit? And they can then push Tifa later when Pt 3 comes out and make double that because her fans would have been waiting for her even more. It's false scarcity, if you think they're shunning your favorite character there's a chance you'll spend more to see them.

Tifa may sell, but more and more of her fans are tired of how they treat her so they basically uninstall the game and quit, or refuse to buy, sometimes even Tifa when they think she's mistreated (see FFVI). It's more about them not treating Tifa like a heroine of FFVII that annoy her fans. Yeah we know Aerith is the face of FFVII, but that's insulting to not treat Tifa as the heroine too. And they are making less and less money because all these decisions are basically piling up.

I'll add though that I think that they are treating EC as a PR/hype up machine, and they are failing their goal hard. I see people not only leaving EC, but also not being interested in main game anymore. With Rebirth's ending, which is too meta for new players and players in general (they don't think that much about games after playing them), many are simply leaving and I'm not sure P3 PR will manage to catch them back. But we've always known that SE is really bad at marketing, so this doesn't even surprise me.

I'm sorry to say gacha companies are gacha companies and they have the scummiest practices because it actually really works for them.

Yep, 100%. And SE isn't better in any way. Their merchandising is proof of that lol.

As for Barrett a lot of gacha companies tend to have an issue with racism. No surprise there sadly but true.

Yeah that's pretty much how it feels.

This is about the money. They're doing what makes them the most money like how some gacha games won't run certain units for a whole year. While everyone is getting mad they are "shunning" the units they're just increasing the demand for them so when they do run they can run them aside a triple banner or something and guarantee profits.

Given how EC is ran, it's more incompetence from them. Whales are very angry right now and if they don't correct some stuff, they're going to lose them anyway. For example, you simply don't play Zack ATM, or Glenn. Or even Barret. They don't have enough in their kit to be good enough for the current content.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Basically for lack of better words even if a couple is canon there can be uncertainty surrounding them. An author can hide from the audience that the couple will be endgame. Many stories do this.

Would you mind if I asked for examples? I'm curious if I'd recognize any of the things you might mention? XD

 

[Pasuwado]

Tifa may sell, but more and more of her fans are tired of how they treat her so they basically uninstall the game and quit, or refuse to buy, sometimes even Tifa when they think she's mistreated (see FFVI). It's more about them not treating Tifa like a heroine of FFVII that annoy her fans. Yeah we know Aerith is the face of FFVII, but that's insulting to not treat Tifa as the heroine too. And they are making less and less money because all these decisions are basically piling up.

I imagine that in future crossovers, if Tifa doesn’t get Rinoa’s or Jill’s outfit, it might end up pushing away her most dedicated fans who still stick with the game. Especially since Aerith has been consistently favored in crossover outfit selections, and in one with Final Fantasy X, it’s almost inevitable that she’ll get Yuna’s outfit.

 

[Maidenofwar]

They are even starting to introduce new arrivals like Cid with the limited limit break weapons. Unless they are planning to do something soon like add a new permanent pool for limit break weapons while they introduce new limit break+ equipment to the gacha or something they are going to lose people. Getting Ultimate weapons from gacha is also a trial, I still don't have any yet.

As far as I know Aerith isn't getting new stuff in March, not sure about April. They might give her something new for the 2nd year anniversary in September. As far as seasonals go she already has two summer outfits. I would like a proper spooky Halloween outfit for her and maybe a new Christmas outfit. I hope others get chances for Easter and summer outfits this year.

Part of it is they only have four girls, so in pushing for male gaze they are giving Aerith, Tifa, Yuffie more, and Lucia over Matt and Glenn. They are making a mistake in thinking people wouldn't get bunny outfits for the guys or thinking they have to give the girls something for summer, etc. They haven't added adult Sephiroth or Genesis yet either.

People were also wondering if they were going to add Cissnei or the Turks, but they don't seem in a hurry to do Before Crisis stuff. People thought they might add Cissnei to Crisis Core but they seem to be running Zack only as CC represent with Angeal being filtered as a First Soldier character.

I could be wrong but I think p3 PR is going to start soon now they have the PC release of Rebirth out of the way,

 

[Eerie]

I expect the teaser to come in June, and the release of the game in 2027. It fits with what they’ve been saying.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

.

About EC: they have been pushing Aerith since the beginning, and people are tired of her and more importantly, of how the game is evolving (limited banner after limited banner, characters and weapons that get unusable because they don't get updates...). They give Aerith the best weapons just to make sure people are forced to buy her. (even then they sometimes miss, proof is that Aerith is skip this month for whales). Anyway this game is doing pretty badly rn, and it's not only Aerith's fault lol.

Tifa may sell, but more and more of her fans are tired of how they treat her so they basically uninstall the game and quit, or refuse to buy, sometimes even Tifa when they think she's mistreated (see FFVI). It's more about them not treating Tifa like a heroine of FFVII that annoy her fans. Yeah we know Aerith is the face of FFVII, but that's insulting to not treat Tifa as the heroine too. And they are making less and less money because all these decisions are basically piling up.

I'll add though that I think that they are treating EC as a PR/hype up machine, and they are failing their goal hard. I see people not only leaving EC, but also not being interested in main game anymore. With Rebirth's ending, which is too meta for new players and players in general (they don't think that much about games after playing them), many are simply leaving and I'm not sure P3 PR will manage to catch them back. But we've always known that SE is really bad at marketing, so this doesn't even surprise me.

Yep, 100%. And SE isn't better in any way. Their merchandising is proof of that lol.

Yeah that's pretty much how it feels.


Given how EC is ran, it's more incompetence from them. Whales are very angry right now and if they don't correct some stuff, they're going to lose them anyway. For example, you simply don't play Zack ATM, or Glenn. Or even Barret. They don't have enough in their kit to be good enough for the current content.

Oh yeah I never said the way gacha companies do things is any sort of a good idea. It's greed. Even Genshin which is actually pretty good at balancing their banners has this problem of making older units completely obsolete so people may not pull when they finally run because you basically can't play them in comparison to other units. Shenhe who finally ran two years later is now rare as hell but so out of meta only those like me who love her will pull. But we have no choice if we want her, and that is how they get us.

Alas gacha is about making quick money in the moment. Draining the wallets as fast as possible. Not really thinking of the long term and EC was used as marketing for Rebirth basically. So for them now they're making money off Aerith and off Tifa and Yuffie when she does run as well as the other rarer characters and even if people quit they'll be billionaires by then.

But also it wouldn't matter to them if people quit because have you seen what SE does with live service games? KingdomHearts Union Cross is a big example. They take everyone's money then they cut service.

So that's basically why they don't care either way they just want money and that's how they're getting it.

That's why I'm not big on SE gacha games despite being a Hoyoverse player and gacha enthusiast myself. Hoyoverse is a gacha company first and foremost so they're more interested in the long run of keeping their games going so they actually change up their banners despite this scummy as hell Wish Chronicle thing they have going on. So it seems like way less of a scam in comparison. SE is not primarily known for gacha so they could care less how long their gacha games go for or who spends on them as long as money is made.

Heck FGO to me seems less shady than anything gacha SE makes.

 

[Eerie]

Their problem is not about players quitting EC, but losing their hype for p3 in main game because that one, they want to sell. It's that bad. There are people who plan on not buying the game until they are sure that they'll do Tifa and CT justice, and others who are just leaving FFVII and al, point blank, because they lost faith in SE due to their bad PR.

That's what happens when a fanservice game doesn't fan service the heroine as such.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Would you mind if I asked for examples? I'm curious if I'd recognize any of the things you might mention? XD

Fruits Basket. Takaya made a triangle between Tohru Yuki and Kyo in the manga where he confesses and realized it's a family bond. Before this they had every romantic imagery you can think of. She revealed later on she almost meant for Yuki and Tohru to have a family like bond not a romantic one. But Yuki is introduced as a love interest and he has feelings for her and teased till about halfway through the manga. Endgame was actually Kyo and it was a twist because Yuki's part is supposed to be part of the reveal of her childhood memory regarding her hat boy love story. Hat boy is by her own admission her first love and the manga reveals hat boy is Yuki. Seeing her have the hat is his catalyst to confess his romantic feelings. And you think that's that until he basically family zones her and you later find out what happens with Tohru and Kyo. In an interview Takaya revealed that was always her intention from the start "Yuki and Tohru 's bond is family". And Kyo was always endgame.

Sasuke and Sakura, Naruto and Hinata. Kishimoto admitted he decided these were endgame pretty early on but decided to make it "misleading" his own words and in the manga Naruto's mom tells him "to marry a girl like her". And it's hinted the entire time to be Sakura who is based on Kishimoto's wife as per his own words. His wife also shipped them. But he decided it was just a cool red herring. Naruto spends the entire first half of the manga in love with Sakura while Hinata looks on from afar. Sakura confesses to Naruto as a way of letting her go after Sasuke to kill him before he gets killed by the Kages but he calls her out on her still loving Sasuke and not him and that was the end of that. But in Japan marketing and the anime they heavily pushed Sakura and Naruto too.

There's more I can bring up if you want. But sometimes endgame canon really is not what is shown up front.

Edit: Added spoiler tag just in case despite these being well known