Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse

Ghost X

Moderator
I don't think any more deaths are necessary. I'd be satisfied with the threat of a death happening. He's already lost his uncle. I would think it really odd on a moral level too if it were "I have to sacrifice X to save the universe", like a trolley problem. A hero shouldn't choose who lives and dies, but rather attempt to save everyone, with such a choice not being in their hands, imo. I'm all for fucked-up endings rather than happy one, but I don't think it'd sit well for most :P. I think the moral of the story that is being set up is to not accept your fate also, rather than the opposite.
 
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X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
See, this is the thing I really miss about the era when DVDs / BluRays were still considered the primary distribution vector for media, because you'd totally have been able to have set up the menu so that it just played one of the versions at random, and then scattered throughout the various scene/chapter selection menus would be ways for you to alter the flow of the Canon Event in order to see the alternate versions as well as activate / decactivate those scenes to create a specific the "timeline" of the film that you're watching, so that each one had a particular designation.

All of that sort of ARG-type stuff that was cool about physical media is something I really miss, as for all of the cheap "port-it-from-VHS-to-DVD-and-slap-the-cheapest-menu-possible-in-there" releases, there were a LOT of ones that put genuine effort into that stuff the same way that official websites used to have that type of design attention put into them. Hell, back in the day, I wound up getting a decent number of Godzilla DVD releases that were definitely Chinese bootleg releases but they'd always go all out in the menus and packaging to make them FEEL like a legit product as much as possible.

All of that stuff really evaporated because the upkeep of those sorts of big amalgamations of secondary media and ARG stuff weren't as marketing cost efficient as just giving every release its own Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, TikTok, & YouTube page to grab eyes via cookie cutter social media platforms. That's heavily influenced how the movie is JUST the one video file that has to be generically cross-compatible across whatever streaming service platforms are distributing it.

That means that even things like subtitles are all just generically configured at a platform level and not individually curated to the media itself, where a movie released on physical media has the subtitles explicitly built JUST for that release. Those are literally a part of the video for films like John Wick that have explicitly stylized subtitle delivery of specific lines of dialogue when the films use foreign languages, or sign language, and even reading braille, where that's part of the VIDEO not just an overlay. Recently, that's been driving me nuts on things Bleach where they'll often supertitle someone's name and subtitle their position in the video – and what you get is a massive black bar covering the ENTIRE SCREEN because supertitles aren't a separately configurable option and the only subtitle configuration is for CC.

Spider-Verse has always felt like everything about its presentation was really keyed into the audience's EXPERIENCE of the media, and that it wasn't something that you could just boil down to a video file with a generically interchangable audio track. There are SO many little sight gags like the BAGEL hit, where the presentation we used to expect from physical media gave space to individually curate those experiences in a way that the globalized architecture of modern streaming distribution platforms just isn't interested in doing at all... and so the freedom that exists to play around with that audience-centric experience in theaters just sort of has no way to translate itself and that SUCKS.

Also, if the whole Lost Media thing is interesting to ya, I've been thinking about this particular shift since watching a video a couple months back about Gorillaz and all the stuff connected to Plastic Beach being right at the center of all of those shifts in the industry. That's what's gotten me wishing for times when the crazy theatrical stuff in Spider-Verse would have just been the precursor to getting to explore and dig into all those things in the space from that release until the next film.

Really though, I've been wanting a movie to do what they did theatrically for ages but even moreso. I'd always hoped that there would be some murder mystery film that got released where the conclusion of the film is totally different between 3-4 different versions, where basically all the same things happen but sometimes the perspectives of where you see it from are different and some cuts have more or less detail of certain scenes, and the release just creates a Rashomon situation for the audience trying to figure out what REALLY happened.

Seeing how even something as successful as Spider-Verse is seemingly getting those versions relegated into lost media makes that feel totally impossible and just... frustrated about the state of the industry as a whole (even beyond all of the things resulting in the strikes and everything else). Adam Savage talking about how Hollywood's VXF & animation industries don't have a Cost Plus model and that it's what's murdering them manages to capture my emotional sentiment perfectly.



X :neo:
 

Lulcielid

Eyes of the Lord
AKA
Lulcy
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X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
Excellent news that they finally have a release date, (even if it's still a ways out). Hopefully that gap makes it easier for the overall process for all of the animators & everyone – because I think that the core of the issues with the films' development is a complicated one, which that article actually does a good job of unpacking, and which I want to speculate on a bit.



One of the things that I'm often reminded of is that the same things that drive passion projects for smaller-scale studio development are IDENTICAL to things that are deeply detrimental when you scale up production to a much bigger company. There's a level of responsiveness & agility to creating things that exists when you can iterate into final versions super quickly that allow you to take a look at things and decide to keep, edit, or scrap them in a way where the end result of that effort is often phenomenal and carefully curated to every degree that you could possibly hope. Learning to work that way gives a level of control and excellence where those results being in demand are what get you bigger & bigger projects, but that scale shifts into direct conflict with the amount of process that each step begins to take.

Looking at things like some of their early work on Clone High (which I watched when it came out in the early 2000s), it's easy to get a sense of that style & workflow being rooted in how they did that sort of animation, where the difference between edits for something like that would be less of a grueling undertaking. Visually, the next closest thing to Spider-Verse would be Arcaneliterally the most expensive animated show ever produced – which underscores the VAST difference between those two things and how processes that helped them to make the end products that are as good as what they're known for are also largely incompatible with the industrial processes that are happening for each little piece of the process for an animation undertaking like that.

This is a big part of struggles for any start-up software company, which is where most of my own direct experience with those issues comes from, and why it's really easy for me to see things like how "crunch" seeps in to the games industry so easily when you start at smaller studios that are driven by passion, and why the workflows, investments, & efforts to make a big game like Baldur's Gate 3 require being utterly antithetical to how most of the entire rest of the industry operates. This same thing comes into play with animation, because the industrialization of animation & series creates timelines and other processes that are extremely difficult to contend with when you're trying to craft each part of the process – because the end result matters more than any individual contribution, but the larger the production the smaller everyone's individual contribution feels, and the more difficult it is to deal with being forced to change things that you poured your passion into.

Working with designers specifically, it's always challenging to get them to shift on something if they don't see eye-to-eye with why those changes are happening, and in animation that's gotta be an issue that's exacerbated multiple times over where the time constraints and demands don't always have reasons or conversations around them, and just come down as arbitrary requirements to scrap work and redo things. This gap in alignment between the people working & the people controlling the work is what creates the core stress dynamic that leads to feelings of moral injury, stress, & burnout.

It's that those processes and the scale at which they're being done are fundamentally at odds with one another, because of the time constraints, and the impossibility for someone in charge to directly interact with all of the various parts of the process with something that large. About the only thing that you can do with that is give the production more time & budget to operate "inefficiently" because it's not a streamlined production, it's an iterative one that carries more risk but has a much higher potential for the end result (much like how the anime film Paprika was made) – something that we're getting less & less of, and something that's more and more difficult to justify as the speed of the animation industry itself pushes harder around people who come to the table knowing exactly what they want from the start, rather than discovering it within the process of creating it.

The more of this sort of thing that I see, the more I can't help but wonder how much the whole of the industry itself is at the core of those issues. Because at the end of the day there's also the driving factor that Lord & Miller have their name directly attached to those projects, and their ability to keep doing things lives or dies on maintaining that success, so that stress doesn't happen in a vacuum, because they're beholden to deadlines and release schedules that are often in a complicated place removing control even from people who seem like they're the one in charge of everything.

Suffice to say – Summer 2027 feels like it's got PLENTY of time to keep going, so that hopefully everyone involved is able to work together in an environment that's better for everyone involved.



X :neo:
 
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