The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

ClerithRaven · Nov 19, 2011

OHMYGOD YOU'RE FILIPINO TOO!!!!!!!!!!! :excited:

Danseru-kun said:
If this is so then answering the questions I provided will confirm her stance. I just want clarification from her, using the outline.

I think Quex and I have said it..?

Danseru-kun said:
Why do I get the impression that my questions are viewed as attacks?

Maybe because we're in the LTD. :catfight:

But seriously, I don't view them as attacks anyway.

Danseru-kun said:
You used the "were friends right?" so I assumed you talked about the truck scene.

For you saying that friendship doesn't need to be confirmed.

Danseru-kun said:
Um... was it difficult to express them? Yeah it was because Cloud is incoherent while Zack is dying. Yeah it was hard to communicate under those conditions. But hey, it was through... WORDS.

They did it through actions too as Zack lay dying.

Danseru-kun said:
I'm sorry, I meant "cover her head," but she does go down to the floor in the HA. In the video she did that thingy, I was not good at narrating actions.

Funny that only Tifa was embarrassed. And Cloud didn't do a thing. It was only Tifa who was embarrassed. Can I hear your opinion on that?

Danseru-kun said:
"Dumapa hanggang tuhod, tinakpan ang ulo at napadapa ng tuluyan" Someone translate that for me.

That would be hard to do. We have different terms in our language. One Filipino term can be translated to a not of English ones, and vice versa.

Danseru-kun said:
You're free to interpret and there's no debate in preference. But in this debate, we're not talking about preferences, it's about what the creators intend.

Err. I was not making an interpretation of showing preferences. I was presenting a could-have-been scenario where nothing else was shown or concluded-"since we didn't know what exactly happened, this could've happened".

Danseru-kun said:
We are talking about the HA scene here where mutual, I repeat mutual, feelings were shared and they "confirmed that their feelings match." If the guy doesn't feel the same, it's not mutual and nothing matches. Pure logic.

And I was saying that maybe feelings of wanting to move on, start over their friendship, desire to save the world together could have been what their shared.

Danseru-kun said:
I prefer chocolate, dark choco ^^,

It's good for the health as I believe.

Danseru-kun said:
The game is open for interpretation and each has her/his own. We're debating on the interpretation that's what it's supposed to be, what the creator themselves acknowledge.

Danseru-kun said:
Whether to accept the creator's stand or not is another issue though.

Yehp. But that doesn't mean that either side will stop shipping what they want to ship. It's the solid confirmation that I think is what's missing. Something that's blatantly shown, like Tidus and Yuna hugging before Tidus went back to being just a "dream" made by the Fayth.

Danseru-kun said:
Arguments take off because of a notion. That's precisely the problem. She mixes her arguments for Clerith to her argument of non-canonity, making her real stand confusing. I prefer that she keeps them separate and stick to one thing at a time. Clerith and non canonity are mutually exclusive. Both of them cannot happen at the same time.

Err, I don't argue for canonity either. I just argue for Clerith.

Danseru-kun said:
If she answers well then I will applaud her. If not, then her unsatisfactory answers will speak for herself. I don't need to question her further.

Uhm. You got a standard for knowing whether a question was answered well or not? Huh. How does that happen?

Anyways, if that's what's gonna clear your mind. But I still don't get it. What would clarifying whether she's arguing for canon or not do? You'd still be arguing whether Cloud loves Aerith or not. Same old same old.

What would change if she did answer your question?

GiddyUnicorn said:
I'm pretty sure she's still allowed to express her own beliefs in her own website....I hope?

It is her website so I think she's free to do whatever she wants in there.

Danseru-kun · Nov 19, 2011

ClerithRaven said:
OHMYGOD YOU'RE FILIPINO TOO!!!!!!!!!!!

Jejeje

ClerithRaven said:
I think Quex and I have said it..?

Said what? Read her posts? "She's arguing interpretations?" If a student is asking a professor the important parts of a book he just read should a professor say "read it all again?".

ClerithRaven said:
For you saying that friendship doesn't need to be confirmed.

In the context of the HW scene. You confirm friendship if you're former enemies, you confirm friendship with other countries, you confirm friendship if you think a person is deceiving you. But in the HW scene, there's no proof that friendship is confirmed in the HA version. For love, we have the FTOIL page.

ClerithRaven said:
They did it through actions too as Zack lay dying.

But with words too.

ClerithRaven said:
Funny that only Tifa was embarrassed. And Cloud didn't do a thing. It was only Tifa who was embarrassed. Can I hear your opinion on that?

So how would Cloud show his embarrassment then? That still doesn't break down "mutuality". (Or maybe Cloud is an exhibitionist :awesome:

)

ClerithRaven said:
Err. I was not making an interpretation of showing preferences. I was presenting a could-have-been scenario where nothing else was shown or concluded-"since we didn't know what exactly happened, this could've happened".

But this is supposed to be a debate, not an exchange of interpretations. We used facts for evidence and opinions does not matter. It's a debate about the non-canonity or the canonity of the LTD. Canonity is determined by the creators, and no amount of personal interpretation can make something canon.

The proper thread for interpretation is the FF7 Relationships Thread

ClerithRaven said:
And I was saying that maybe feelings of wanting to move on, start over their friendship, desire to save the world together could have been what their shared.

In the FTOIL page? Even those "feelings" were used in other couples as well as Ingus and Sara?

You don't get embarrassed for those things, at least not with Tifa's reaction. You're free to interpret, but that will not always coincide with the creator's intent.

ClerithRaven said:
It's good for the health as I believe.

But sadly it's expensive here.

ClerithRaven said:
Yehp. But that doesn't mean that either side will stop shipping what they want to ship. It's the solid confirmation that I think is what's missing. Something that's blatantly shown, like Tidus and Yuna hugging before Tidus went back to being just a "dream" made by the Fayth.

Nobody told anyone to stop shipping

I ship a lot of fanon and it's fun. I also collect Clerith fanart. I ship NakomaxThomas, I-NoxHazama and many other couple who never even met.

For being blatant, I say not all couples like PDA (Public Display of Affection). In older Japanese cultures, couples don't walk side by side, they don't kiss and they don't hug in public.

I believe living together and raising kids is too blatant. Did you see the Cloud and Tifa drawings in the children's room? If Barret is the family's real dad why isn't he posted on the wall?

ClerithRaven said:
Err, I don't argue for canonity either. I just argue for Clerith.

I understand how Clerith makes sense, but I think it has been established in this thread that the issue is canonity. You're pushing a different debate.

ClerithRaven said:
Uhm. You got a standard for knowing whether a question was answered well or not? Huh. How does that happen?

Well= Proving that she's consistent, clearing my confusion
Not Well= Giving a more confusing answer

Is there something wrong with that standard?

ClerithRaven said:
Anyways, if that's what's gonna clear your mind. But I still don't get it. What would clarifying whether she's arguing for canon or not do? You'd still be arguing whether Cloud loves Aerith or not. Same old same old.

Because I don't really get her flow of arguments. She's using hypothetical situations and opinions for the argument of non-canonity, but you get the impression that she is tearing down C/T and proving C/A. Many people agree with me and it's fair to ask her to explain what she really meant.

ClerithRaven said:
What would change if she did answer your question?

It would either solidify her stance or our stance. If she can do the former then I've helped your ship. Isn't that a good trade-off?

EDIT

P.S. I think it's better to settle some arguments(not all) in PM's. I don't want to get involved too much here.

Anastar · Nov 19, 2011

Everyone

It seems that several things need to be cleared up. I hesitate to do this mostly because most people participating in this debate seem to doubt whatever I say - so why bother saying anything?

1) I tried the mobile skin. The background is black. I have a hard time seeing text with a black background. In fact, I have to highlight the text in order to read it. It's easier for me to read text when the background is a light color.

2) As for people questioning whether I can navigate the thread easily or not, I assume you question that because I've been thanking Clerith posts. I use the advanced search by username in order to find those posts so I won't have to navigate the thread.

3) How can I be neutral when I argue for Clerith? I've already said it numerous times: I do not think that EITHER couple is canon. I AGREE with the Clerith interpretation - I do not think Clerith is canon. I think both interpretations (Cloti and Clerith) are possible, but neither interpretation has been canonized by SE.

I argue for Clerith for several reasons:
- I agree with that interpretation of the story.
- I use Clerith interpretations to support optionality by showing that different scenes can be interpreted in more ways than just Cloti.
- I use official quotes to show that those quotes can be used to support the Clerith interpretation, too - not just Cloti. That does not mean I think that the Clerith interpretation is the only possible interpretation. It means I think that SE doesn't support only one pairing or one version of the story.
- I am not trying to prove Cloti wrong. I'm trying to show that Clerith is a possible interpretation of the Compilation, that Cloti is not the only possible interpretation of the Compilation, that the Clerith interpretation is every bit as valid as the Cloti interpretation, and that the Clerith interpretation can also be supported by official source material - not just Cloti.

From now on, I'll put that as a disclaimer on all of my posts.

Lancelot said:
Though on the subject of quote mining, I had a look at that 'apathetic' quote that was being brought up:

分岐　決戦前夜に……
宝条の暴走を止めてから大空洞へ突入するまでにくり広げられるティファとの会話場面は、ティファの好感度によって分岐する。好感度が低いと、ふたりで夜を明かす場面の会話が淡白で短め。翌朝の操縦室の場面では、ティファが「聞いてたの？」と言ってつま先をトントンとする。一方、好感度が高いと、ふたりで夜を明かす場面の会話が濃く、操縦室ではティファが「見てたの？」と恥ずかしがってへたりこむのだ（→Ｐ．２０１）。

・画像（これは、俺たちふたりにゆるされたさいごの時間かもしれないから……）
好感度が高い場合、ふたりで過ごす夜が意味深なものに……。

I quote what I have of that quote. I do not have the translation of what is in blue.

I see you say it's about the HA version. Why do I have to include anything about the HA version if I'm not talking about the HA version?

Lancelot said:
"In their final remaining hours they disclose their feelings for each other, and..."

I don't really see why you would make a point of mentioning that they've told each other their feelings if it was just an apathetic and short conversation. It had already mentioned that Cloud and Tifa stayed behind alone, they could have just left it at that and moved on.

No, that does not confirm the HA version. They disclose their feelings for one another in both versions. The word "apathetic" does not mean that nothing is communicated. Cloud can communicate indifference by simply saying, "Just to be clear, I don't want to be anything more than friends, Tifa". That statement is both apathetic (or candid) and short. It's apathetic because it shows his indifference to getting involved romantically. It's candid because it's honest. It also discloses his feelings. If Tifa said back, "I feel the same way, Cloud", then she's expressing mutual feelings with Cloud. It's apathetic because it shows her indifference to a relationship, it's candid, it discloses her feelings of indifference, and it's short.

So, "disclosing their feelings to each other" can pertain to both the LA and HA versions. So can "confirming their mutual feelings".

Disclaimer:
1) I do not think that either Clerith or Cloti have been canonized by SE.
2) I argue for Clerith because I agree with that interpretation of the Compilation.
3) I use Clerith interpretations to support optionality by showing that scenes and source materials can interpreted in other ways than just Cloti.
4) I use official quotes to show that those quotes can be used to support the Clerith interpretation, too - not just Cloti. That does not mean I think that the Clerith interpretation is the only possible interpretation. It means I think that SE doesn't support only one pairing or one version of the Compilation.
5) I am not trying to prove that Cloti is wrong. I'm trying to show that Clerith is a possible interpretation of the Compilation, that Cloti is not the only possible interpretation of the Compilation, that the Clerith interpretation is every bit as valid as the Cloti interpretation, and that the Clerith interpretation can also be supported by official source material - not just Cloti.

Marle · Nov 19, 2011

I don't really expect to get a reply to this nor do I want to PM Anastar or anything. She's got her plate full as it is but, I just want to clarify one little thing.

Chantara said:
3) How can I be neutral when I argue for Clerith? I've already said it numerous times: I do not think that EITHER couple is canon. I AGREE with the Clerith interpretation - I do not think Clerith is canon. I think both interpretations (Cloti and Clerith) are possible, but neither interpretation has been canonized by SE.

I argue for Clerith for several reasons:
- I agree with that interpretation of the story.
- I use Clerith interpretations to support optionality by showing that different scenes can be interpreted in more ways than just Cloti.
- I use official quotes to show that those quotes can be used to support the Clerith interpretation, too - not just Cloti. That does not mean I think that the Clerith interpretation is the only possible interpretation. It means I think that SE doesn't support only one pairing or one version of the story.
- I am not trying to prove Cloti wrong. I'm trying to show that Clerith is a possible interpretation of the Compilation, that Cloti is not the only possible interpretation of the Compilation, that the Clerith interpretation is every bit as valid as the Cloti interpretation, and that the Clerith interpretation can also be supported by official source material - not just Cloti.

From now on, I'll put that as a disclaimer on all of my posts.

That's perfect. That's exactly what everyone here expects you to do.

The problem is that, you don't do this. You tear down CloTi to make Clerith work. I know you do post some Clerith proving points but a large majority of your posts are tearing down any meaning between Cloud and Tifa and this is the only way it seems for Clerith to be valid in many arguments. Which is why, I think, everyone is taking up an issue with it.

If you could really just bring Clerith up to par with CloTi evidence, I think you'd be accomplishing a lot more. But constantly degrading the HW scene isn't making Clerith any more valid.

Again, no need to reply to this at all, I'm just trying to clarify things.

Ryushikaze · Nov 19, 2011

- I use Clerith interpretations to support optionality by showing that different scenes can be interpreted in more ways than just Cloti.

The problem with this is twofold.

1. Your interpretations are often based entirely on your say so, without any backing evidence, and divorced from all context. It seems every quote is LT related to you, and that that parsimony is as much of a dirty word as silly.

2. Your argument are not phrased to support optionality. You phrase them to support Clerith.

You keep saying you're supporting optionality, but all your arguments take the form of assuming C/A and trying to knock down C/T.

Oh, and Giddy, I notice that despite giving you a very direct answer, you continued to ask the very same leading and loaded question. Please refrain from doing that. ~~I will have to assume you're being hostile if it continues.~~

Addendum: Ah fuck it, hi Shroudy. Stop being a Sophist. I know you're trying to trap me into saying certain things. Get a new party trick, this one is played out.

Zealkin · Nov 19, 2011

Chantara said:
Zealkin

Chantara said:
But you didn't answer my question, and neither does the quote from the 10th AU. Has Tifa ever said to Cloud that she still has complex feelings toward Aerith even now because she views Aerith as a love rival? The 10th AU says that Tifa feels that way, but I haven't seen Tifa say that to Cloud. Or is Tifa keeping that to herself?

What I'm saying isn't valid unless it's stated in an Ultimania or official source? Well, no official source states that the HA HW scene is canon, but many Cloti's here say that it is. It also hasn't been stated in any official source that Cloti is canon, but many Cloti's here keep saying that it is.

So why is it valid that Cloti is canon and that the HA HW scene is canon without an official source saying so, but my interpretation isn't valid unless it's stated by an official source?

I talked about that quote in my last post, that’s why it’s a little difficult to do this in parts we both seem to just repeat ourselves and can’t get our points across as easily. But again I will say this again:
the quote uses the "This was due to the fact" to describe why Tifa has them, and the complicated feelings are not described so you don’t even know if they’re jealousy or not.

Well yes. You have to have evidence to back up what you say, and no Square has never said “so and so is canon” because I doubt they even care, and that word is a fanon word to use anyway. The HA scene has been stated to happen several times, the LA scene is described as being a situation that can happen but is overshadowed by the Ha scene which is one of the most important scenes in the game and has dozens of quotes alluding to it. I have supplied evidence for the canonity of that scene, all I ask is that you provide the same if it’s possible.

The quote I gave you says that Tifa still has complex feelings toward Aerith as a woman even two years after Aerith's death, which means that Tifa's still jealous of Aerith. The same quote also says that Tifa views Aerith as a love rival (tense unspecified). Tifa would only be feeling that way if Tifa knew that Cloud still loves Aerith, which is the premise I suggested for the LA version.

We don’t know what the complex feelings are, and being complex they probably aren’t just one thing, that doesn’t have to automatically equate to jealousy, and I’ve explained the quotes we’re referencing several times above.

Sounds to me like an official source supports my interpretation, therefore it's valid. However, I never said that my interpretation is canon, either.

The official source does say something, but it’s not saying what you are saying, you’re jumping from complex feelings to jealousy, with no bridge connecting the two.

Love triangle's continuity:

In the first place, Aerith is able to continue a relationship after she is deceased. AC/ACC showed that Aerith and Cloud are able to talk with one another, see one another, and touch one another. Nomura said this is possible because Aerith lives on inside of Cloud. That means that Aerith is always and will always be with Cloud. So yes, their relationship can continue.

We've seen Yuna continue a relationship with Tidus despite the fact that he's essentially dead, and we've seen Vincent continue a relationship with Lucrecia despite the fact that she's essentially dead. Ifalna continued a relationship with Aerith after Ifalna died. We saw Sephiroth continue a negative relationship with Cloud during FFVII despite the fact that Sephiroth was dead during the entire game. So sorry, but fantasy worlds make it possible for a relationship to continue beyond death.

Once again you’re taking things literally when the writing is approached figuratively. Living on inside of someone does not mean you actually live inside of them(even if you’re a cetra) When my grandmother died a little of her lived on inside of me, I see things that she might have done or enjoyed, or said to me at certain moments; this is what happens to Cloud, and a few others, intensified because Aerith is an ancient, she does not literally live inside of him though. Plus it says that she goes back to where she belongs to the lifestream at the end of Advent Children.

Yuna does not continue a relationship with dead tidus, she looks for hints of him being alive so she can continue a relationship with him, well alive.. Vincent doesn’t continue a relationship with Lucrezia he pines after her (slightly alive/dead) crystal form, and a relationship is a two way street, she has no direct interaction with Vincent, it’s only his memories that haunt him.
Ilfana does not have any relationship with Aerith after she died, like I said a relationship is a two way street, praying for Aerith and missing her is not having a relationship with her, it’s remembering what one once had, aka her and her life.

And Sephiroth was able to actually manifest himself(though not fully) and still interact with Cloud and co, so it is still him in a sense.

As for the quote about the deepening love triangle in Aerith's FFVII profile, that paragraph is obviously talking about before Aerith dies, since it talks about how she meets Cloud and how she joins Avalanche. So it's talking about the love triangle deepening while Aerith is alive.

... she seems more interested in the deepening love triangle between herself, Cloud and Tifa. ~Aerith's profile, FFVII Game Manual

yeah notice that there’s nothing talking about after that though, what makes you think it continues? The Tifa quote doesn't….

Cloud is the woman's friend, sweetheart (lover, boyfriend). ~Case of Lifestream White

I discussed this in my last post why this isn’t mutual.

Kitase: ... And having two heroines, Aerith and Tifa, and having the hero waver between them, at the time that was something new. ~Interview with the creators, pg. 8-13, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

Okay but what happens after that is? The wavering is talking about the beginning of the game, it doesn’t hold for the entire game, as Cloud cannot waver between relationships if one part of the triangle is killed off.

It mentions the images (of a face or appearance) that even now live in Cloud's heart, with images of the bottom half of Aerith's face, the flower garden and the Forgotten Capital. ~Interview with Nomura published at FFVIIAC Reunion

Screenshot: http://clerith.heliohost.org/ACNet.gif

So memories of a woman that Cloud cared for, saw dying before his eyes, and almost being the one that kills her are forever engraved in his heart..mm sounds likely, just like Tifa’s promise. This doesn’t say anything about Cloud loving Aerith.

Both of them share feelings for Cloud — Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. ~Tifa's profile, 10th AU

Okay this is talking about Tifa and Aerith we know this already, what about Cloud and Aerith?

When talking about the "rare smile" which Aerith brings out in Cloud during the game, the FFVII Ultimania Omega says that "there seems to be something between them". ~Aerith's info page, FFVII Ultimania Omega

Quex gave me a translation of the page and found nothing of the sort, but could you find the page for me to make sure?

Aerith Gainsborough - A girl with the blood of the Ancients flowing through her veins, who is engraved in Cloud's heart for the rest of his life. ~DoC game manual, direct translation from Japanese version

Okay like I said above she was important to Cloud and she has no reason not to be for the reasons I stated above, juts like the promise, Aerith was important to Cloud.

Aerith's picture with Cloud on the FTOIL page under a heading saying that Love Develops Between the Heroes. If it's valid for Cloti, then it's valid for Clerith.

See I don't follow this, You need a quote that shows that love between the two heroines is optional and Cloud himself does not have any static feelings, game mechanics Cloud=/= static Cloud.
I’ve stated on my first part of my answer, why this reasoning is skewed and I have yet to see a quote that has proven this theory correct or possible.

In your opinion

In your opinion

In your opinion

Optionally.

In your opinion. Apparently, we don't need to rely on official sources to determine what's canon.

So it’s my opinion that if Cloud likes Tifa, depending on her should obviously lower his affection for her? It doesn’t make sense if he likes her wouldn’t this make both of them happy?!

I have also told you why the koibito quote was onesided, if you think it’s my opinion then prove me wrong, find a translator that can explain it to me step by step as I have done for you.

And we still disagree.

Can you explain why? If it has to do with opinion that’s up to you, but why does my logic not match up to the narrative? argue against my point and counter them if you think they do not. I may like pairings, but I know when a ship is beat or so to speak, tell me why I’m wrong, meet me half way please.

It's implied in the nine quotes I gave above. If Cloud is able to love Aerith, as those quotes imply, and if Cloud and Tifa do not share mutual feelings of love during the LA HW scene, then Cloud doesn't have to love Tifa.

Those quotes don’t speak anything about Clouds feelings themselves, it’s all based on Aerith and how Cloud wavers in the beginning of the game, but how can he waver if Aerith is no longer alive? Cloud outside of the affection and the game mechanics does want Tifa in a different way than before, he blushes around her, supports her, knows when she’s not being herself and raises a family together, these kinds of actions do not indicate that he was in love with another girl.

Cloud loves Tifa regardless of what what individual player ends up with in the game, the HA scene happens regardless of what other players have gotten in their playthrough’s.

Kitase said it right here:

Kitase: When I first read Nojima’s scenario, I felt strongly that his image of a heroine was fresh. The hero didn’t have a typical personality, single-minded or righteous, and Aerith lived in the slums. Those things were really fresh. And having two heroines, Aerith and Tifa, and having the hero waver between them, at the time that was something new. ~Interview with the creators, pg. 8-13, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

That’s not saying you can continue a relationship with someone dead, and no where does it even imply that.

It's also implied by the FTOIL page when it shows Cloud with both Aerith and Tifa while specifying that both are optional.

You continue to use optional over and over, yet I fail to see the actual WORD optional on those pages. Where does it say the Higwwind scene is optional? Where does it say that the HA highwind scene is optional? It talks about deviations, what CAN happen in certain circumstances, what HAS happened is unarguably the scene that is considered one of the most important.

I already discussed how relationships can continue beyond death in Final Fantasy. In fact, Nomura specifically said that while talking about KH:

Question: Mr. Nomura, what did you most want to portray in [Kingdom Heart's] story?
Nomura: For the story, simply put, "connections"... I wanted to portray the idea that people are not physically connected. Well, I think that is already thoroughly incorporated in the story though. Even apart, things which are connected are still connected. ~Kingdom Hearts 1 Ultimania

The interviewers question answers yours, and you just said that it’s from kh’s story it’s talking about kingdom hearts. Plus Nomura has explicitly stated that ff7 and kh are separate stories:
“There’s no relationship from FFVII to the Kingdom Hearts stories. I consider them separate stories.” PlayStation Magazine (October 2002 issue, pg. 139)

And yes, that's about KH, not FFVII - however, Nomura also said that the ending of KH1 may answer questions about Cloud and Aerith's relationship in FFVII:

Question: What was the thought behind bringing back Aeris [in Kingdom Hearts]?
Nomura: Yes, she died in Final Fantasy VII, but there's no real relation to where she was at or what role she played in FFVII. There's no relationship from FFVII to the Kingdom Hearts stories. I consider them separate stories. But if you play Kingdom Hearts, toward the end, some of the questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aeris in FFVII might be answered. It's sort of like a side story, and this was an extra bonus that I wanted to give to players. ~Official U.S. Playstation Magazine; October, 2002, page 139-140
Another indication that Cloud can love Aerith in FFVII.

He says right smack dab in the middle of the quote that there is no relation between the two stories, and what does the ending show exactly? Cloud looking depressed in a library with Aerith?

Not if the person who's hoping isn't suffering.

It seems that you've forgotten that I was also saying that the LA version would be mutual feelings between Cloud and Tifa. If Cloud isn't wanting a relationship with Tifa, then Tifa's not wanting a relationship with Cloud, either. She's wanting him to change before she'll consider a relationship. That would mean she's not wanting to get into his pants at the moment - and therefore, I don't see it as suffering.

That’s not a feeling though, that’s actually talking ABOUT feelings that the characters are saying they’d rather not have, not only is this not in the LA’s script, it’s not even described as such in the deviations page. This argument does not hold up, it’s actually contradicting what’s been said the LA scene was: apathetic and short, that kind of conversation that you have described would take longer than a few seconds to sort out, and it’s never been said to happen.

And it's not possible for Tifa to be hoping that Cloud will fall for her one day at the same time she's pissed about him being submerged in guilt? I don't see those two feelings as being incompatible.

Except Tifa has never been said to be waiting for Cloud to fall for her, and it’s never been hinted at all, unless you can give me evidence to substantiate this, it didn’t happen.

After all, she's wanting him to change - she's wanting him to stop blaming himself, she's wanting him to stop isolating himself. How do you know she's not wanting him to get over Aerith, too? If Tifa continues to hold complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith two years after Aerith's death, then I see that as indication that Tifa's hoping that Cloud will someday grow to love Tifa as well as Aerith.

Because no where has it been indicated that she has even had this thought, and Cloud would have to be with Aerith In order to get over her in the first place. That simply does not connect, the complex feelings are not defined, and you are jumping from point to point with no backing behind this reasoning, there is nothing in that quote that says jealousy, or Tifa hoping Cloud will get over Aerith.

And yes - that interpretation is valid hypothetically speaking. I think my interpretation is valid hypothetically speaking, too. It would depend on optionality, since one interpretation fits the HA version of the HW scene, and one interpretation fits the LA version of the HW scene.

And didn't SE say it was optional?

Square didn’t say anything was optional, they said there are deviations, which is completely different from saying that they are optional. There is an accepted outcome, one that is in the most important scenes in the game, it has nothing to do with interpretation.

Which is exactly why I keep saying it's open to interpretation. The quote in Tifa's profile supports my interpretation, but I'm not saying that interpretation is the only possible interpretation.

So it’s up to interpretation who the woman is in CoLW? Because you filled in the blanks for that in your previous post.

But that was said - if the woman is an Ancient who is friend and sweetheart to Cloud, then the only Ancient who fits that description in FFVII is Aerith. CoLW also says that the woman is an Ancient who was killed by Sephiroth. So who else could it be but Aerith?

True, since it's unspecified.

So Who else could it be but Cloud? You’re doing the same thing I am doing, you’re using context clues and evidence from the narrative that we are given to fill in the blanks, which isn’t quite so hard to do right?

Well, yes and no. I think it's made pretty clear myself myself, since it says that Aerith is/was (unspecified) a love rival to Tifa, and says that Tifa continues to have complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith. But is it definitely stated that Tifa's jealous? No - that's open to interpretation, just like who views Tifa as a sweetheart.

So you cannot use your interpretation as Tifa being jealous(especially since it doesn’t specify the feelings in that quote) as a basis for Cloud loving Aerith because of this, it doesn’t match up.

And where is that stated? According to you - if it's not stated in an official source, then it's not valid.

I thought this was known but if not I will extrapolate.
Cloud was a mess at the beginning of the game:
“Cloud, having suffered heavy injuries during the incident, was injected with cells from Jenova, an extraterrestrial life form. These cells, which Sephiroth also had in his body, controlled Cloud’s thoughts and created a separate personality, and tried to manipulate Cloud into joining with Sephiroth. Even the Meteor crisis was indirectly caused by Cloud having become a puppet to Sephiroth.”(10 AU)
"Due to the influence of the Jenova cells implanted in his body he acted out a false persona, but with the support of his friends he regains his true self and grows as a person.”(10 AU)

His feelings coming to light in the lifstream scene:
“UO Page 27: Deep inside Cloud's heart, feelings were hidden that no one knew about. Even though there were important memories to himself, many of them were forgotten. In the process of looking for the real Cloud, Tifa learns a lesson about the complexity of the human heart, and the feelings are earnestly transmitted.”

I know you think it's stated in that one quote about the Lifestream event (which I can't find right now), but I've already explained how I don't agree that the quote is talking about Cloud's feelings in the current frame of events. It's only talking about Cloud's past feelings for Tifa.

So where has SE clearly stated that Cloud's feelings for Tifa have continued since he was a kid, and that he only forgot about those feelings until the Lifestream event?

well this quote is different, and the feelings are transmitted in the lifestream.Unless you're arguing against the definition of past progressive?

Where has SE stated that Cloud was actually in love with Tifa before leaving to join SOLDIER? The CC Ultimania only says that Cloud had a dim crush on Tifa when they were kids. Even IF you think he's actually in love, come on - how can Cloud be in love at the age of 14 with a girl he barely knows?

He joined SOLDIER for Tifa, and only for her. And if they “barely” knew each other, that doesn’t help your case with Aerith, as he only knew her for 2 weeks at most.

Simple answer: Cloud can't be in love with Tifa at the age of 14 when they barely know one another. Therefore, even IF he regains the feelings he once had for Tifa at the time of the Lifestream event, it was nothing but a dim crush.

What about Aerith’s two weeks? A bit contradictory, don’t you think?

I would say it means any interest at all, since the FFVII UO also says this:

In those days, Tifa didn't take much notice to Cloud. The reason why she said to him "To be saved by a Hero" was only to satisfy her childish princess desire. ~Cloud's profile, FFVII Ultimania Omega

Since it says Tifa didn't take much notice of Cloud at all, I would say she didn't have any interest of any kind in him before the Promise was made. He left a few weeks after the Promise was made, and there's no indication that he spent any time with Tifa during those few weeks. He and Tifa didn't write to one another or speak to one another for what - 7 years? - while he was a Shinra grunt. Then Cloud spends another 5? years as a lab rat for Hojo.

That time period really is up for grabs, we don’t know what happened then so it’s best to just leave it be. And again I have to bring up Aerith, she spent even less time with Cloud than Tifa did.

In reality, Cloud and Tifa were just getting to know one another when FFVII started, so Cloud didn't know Tifa much longer than he'd known Aerith at the time of the HW scene.

But he had known of her for longer than Aerith, and according to the lifestream scene the present day Cloud would be happy to know that Tifa was worried about him in the past. Tifa and Aerith were not on equal footing.
Cloud and Tifa may not have known everything about each other but they have memories together, good and bad, that has connected them, you really can’t ignore their history, because it is pretty deep.

In the first place, that's from the HA HW scene - there's nothing like that in the LA version. Therefore, it's optional.

But the LA scene didn’t happen, no feelings are communicated, and none are said to be communicated. The HA scene’s status as most impressive indicates that the LA scene did NOT happen.

In the second place, Cloud isn't saying that his feelings for Tifa haven't changed. What hasn't changed is his inability to talk to Tifa easily:

Cloud "Hey, Tifa...... I...... There are a lot of things I wanted to talk to you about." (He shakes his head slowly.)
Cloud "But now that we're together like this, I don't know what I really wanted to say..." "I guess nothing's changed at all... Kind of makes you want to laugh..."

And like I said before, if Cloud's feelings for Tifa haven't changed since he was a kid, then all he's feeling for her at the moment is a dim crush.

But you have said he barely talks to Tifa, so how could he have had trouble talking with her before, if he never did? That crush is still romantic, and it’s enough feeling for Cloud to act on them.

Where exactly do you think that's indicated?

He continues to say “If only I were in Soldier” throughout the game, and we can’t forget that he wanted to join SOLDIER for Tifa in the first place, he doesn’t want to see her without fulfilling his rank, that tells you that he still remembers the promise, which is romantic:

"A Promise to Tifa, Etched in his Memory.

When Cloud left the village dreaming of being a SOLDIER, he swore to Tifa that he would come running to her rescue if she was in trouble. While it was Tifa who strong-armed him into making the promise, it seems that the idea that he must keep this vow was forever in Cloud’s mind. In BC he is obsessive about protecting people, and if he runs out of strength part way though he will mention the “promise.”(10th AU)

So you always agree whenever something is explained to you? Besides, I'm not agreeing with what he said about the English tenses.

If I’m proven wrong yes I would, You learn nothing If you hold stubbornly on to beliefs that are wrong, but you can learn an infinite amount of things if you allow yourself to be wrong.( love the Dao)Then can you say why you don’t agree, with logical representation and breakdowns of your reasoning to explain why he is incorrect and why your point is valid? Because that’s what would help you most here.

If I have to be able to read and understand Japanese before I can understand the LT, then SE hasn't made it clear to the NA audience. If SE hasn't made it clear to the NA audience, then the LT hasn't been solved.

So if English speaking audiences do not get the full grasp of the situation it’s not solved? That’s simply not true, Square is a Japanese company, they release final mixes to their country only and don’t care how much we want them. They cater to their native tongue, they have solved the LT in their native tongue, they don’t need translations for everyone to make this fact known.

In the first place, the part you quoted was about why Tifa got interested in Cloud - it says nothing about the other boys. Tifa got interested in Cloud only because he said he was going to become a SOLDIER. Tifa thought that meant Cloud would become a hero like Sephiroth. When we first see Tifa in CC, she asks Zack if Zack and Sephiroth are the only 1st class SOLDIERs there - she doesn't ask if Cloud's there. So that's all she's interested in - a first class SOLDIER, a hero. That's what she was looking in the newspapers for, too - not the Cloud she grew up with in Nibelheim.

As for the other boys, I bring them up because it shows how shallow Cloud's interest in Tifa is. Plenty of boys had crushes on her, just like Cloud. Cloud barely knew Tifa. She hung out with other boys in town, not with Cloud. The other boys wouldn't let Cloud into their group. Cloud only used to look up at her window from outside. So just because Cloud had a crush on her means nothing - other boys had crushes on her, too.

Tifa doesn't ask if Cloud's there because she believed that he would make it into SOLDIER and so did Cloud. And if she only wants a strong SOLDIER why even bother giving up her cause and nursing devotedly for him in Mideel?

"Believing in Cloud’s promise, Tifa’s waiting to see Cloud become a SOLDIER like Sephiroth. "(CC U)

She believes that he will become great, that's not being stuck up or forgetting her childhood friend, that's believing in him.

And we don’t know the reason why Cloud liked Tifa, and if it was because the other boys liked her, does it really matter? Was there any other girls in Nibleheim besides Tifa? we don’t know, so you can’t really use this as backup it’s blank info that we don’t have the information to form a conclusion with it.

We aren't communicating here. >_< Let me try to rephrase from the beginning:

I brought up the scene where Tifa learns that Elmyra has asked Cloud to deliver flowers to Aerith's grave. Tifa walks into a room and sees Cloud drinking. She asks if she can have a drink with him:

It was night and they had closed the bar. Cloud was drinking wine even though he rarely does. He drained his glass. Tifa hesitated before going over and filling his glass.
"Shall I join you?" There was something she wanted to talk to him about.
"I want to drink alone."
Hearing that, Tifa lost control and said, "Then drink in your room." (CoT)

Notice it says that she wanted to talk with him about something. If she wants to talk with him, it's clear to me that she's wanting to offer her help. If she's wanting to offer her help, then I take it to mean that she's reaching out to him.

I showed you the post where you said otherwise: you said that Tifa was seeking out Cloud romantically in this scene. What you're saying now is more or less what I was trying to say before, what you have posted now isn’t what you have said earlier, so to make things clear is this response how you feel about this scene or not?

That's only your interpretation. The FFVII UO says there is a conversation in the LA version:After stopping Hojo from going amuck, the conversation with Tifa before they rush into the Northern Crater diverges into two conditions, according to Tifa's affection rating for Cloud. When the affection rating is low, the conversation in the scene where they spend the night will be apathetic and ends quickly.~page 198, Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega

If there was a conversation, then something was most likely communicated. The same passage says that the conversation was apathetic and ends quickly. "Apathetic" can means A LITTLE emotion, not no emotion. "Ends quickly" means it didn't last long, not that it didn't happen at all.

So there's nothing which would indicate that nothing was communicated.

Communicate yes. They did. Did they communicate of feelings in the LA version? Well no. And no where does it say they communicated feelings in the LA scene.

Celes Chere · Nov 19, 2011

. Tell you what, we do this on PMs, the same way as Aly.

Ugh, noooooo.

What would clarifying whether she's arguing for canon or not do?

Well, a lot on the C/T side of things believe that CT is canon. It's sort of pointless to debate with someone that doesn't believe either pairing is canon, and just believes Clerith is more likely... Because then there's nothing more to debate about if that's your opinion. :monster:

I hesitate to do this mostly because most people participating in this debate seem to doubt whatever I say - so why bother saying anything?

It's an attitude like this that makes me not care. I don't even know you, and yet you say most of us doubt you when all of the people I've seen are right here willing to listen. That to me, is my definition of rude.

do not think that EITHER couple is canon. I AGREE with the Clerith interpretation - I do not think Clerith is canon. I think both interpretations (Cloti and Clerith) are possible, but neither interpretation has been canonized by SE.

If you prefer one pairing over the other however, that makes you biased. That's not a bad thing, it's just that's the pairing you prefer so you're not likely going to agree at all with the other side of things. That makes you NOT neutral. Not believing there is a canon pair but believing the Clerith side has more romantic proof makes you a Clerith supporter, not someone who is neutral. The problem here is that you are trying to prove Clerith is possible, when lots have already said that both pairings are possible, just that Cloti is far more likely. Then there's the handful of us saying Cloti is canon in which case - at least speaking for myself - I would like proof that CT *ISNT* canon, not proof that Cloud x Aerith is, because you've already provided that, people have already disproven it (in my personal opinion), and so the same arguments are getting rehashed over and over. I have never seen spec of proof that Cloud moved on from Tifa after four years of being in a tube.

Strangelove · Nov 19, 2011

Chantara said:
I quote what I have of that quote. I do not have the translation of what is in blue.

I see you say it's about the HA version. Why do I have to include anything about the HA version if I'm not talking about the HA version?

Because just including half of it without a link to the rest or even mentioning that it continues on comes across as trying to manipulate how it sounds.

No, that does not confirm the HA version. They disclose their feelings for one another in both versions.

What feelings? Where does the game or anything related to the game talk about feelings in the lower version that aren't ones you've conjectured might possibly be there?

But I don't particularly see the point in just going back and forth with 'this is how I see it' and talking about blanks that are being filled in with whatever we like. I don't know why you replied to that in the first place since I was under the impression you only responded to PMs.

Octo · Nov 19, 2011

Lancelot said:
But I don't particularly see the point in just going back and forth with 'this is how I see it' and talking about blanks that are being filled in with whatever we like.

This.

This whole thread isn't about 'interpretations' or 'opinion' it is about facts and evidence.

You can't debate someone elses opinions can you?

So does this mean from now on its a debate between those who believe in a canon outcome and those who believe it is open ended? :huh:

Ryushikaze · Nov 19, 2011

Lancelot said:
Because just including half of it without a link to the rest or even mentioning that it continues on comes across as trying to manipulate how it sounds.

What feelings? Where does the game or anything related to the game talk about feelings in the lower version that aren't ones you've conjectured might possibly be there?

But I don't particularly see the point in just going back and forth with 'this is how I see it' and talking about blanks that are being filled in with whatever we like. I don't know why you replied to that in the first place since I was under the impression you only responded to PMs.

PMs are and have always been an excuse.

Kissmammal2000 said:
This.

This whole thread isn't about 'interpretations' or 'opinion' it is about facts and evidence.

You can't debate someone elses opinions can you?

So does this mean from now on its a debate between those who believe in a canon outcome and those who believe it is open ended?

Not exactly. It's a debate between people who think there is a canon outcome, and people who want their outcome to be canon but do not have the evidence to fight it and so have retreated into postmodernism and outright dishonesty depending on the person.
Of course, some of them have always simply been dishonest.

ClerithRaven · Nov 19, 2011

Danseru-kun said:
Jejeje

Jejemon!

Said what? Read her posts? "She's arguing interpretations?" If a student is asking a professor the important parts of a book he just read should a professor say "read it all again?".

Eh, no. That she believes in Clerith because it makes sense to her, but she does not think either is canon.

In the context of the HW scene. You confirm friendship if you're former enemies, you confirm friendship with other countries, you confirm friendship if you think a person is deceiving you. But in the HW scene, there's no proof that friendship is confirmed in the HA version. For love, we have the FTOIL page.

Why? Can't you love a person as a friend? I know I do.

Ah yes, the FTOIL page. May I ask you this then...
Since it's the For The One I Love, and the date scene is there, regardless who it is, does that mean that whoever goes on a date with Cloud is in love with him? Because, it seems that since it is in the FTOIL page, it must be about love.

But with words too.

And because of Tifa's line, you think that no words were ever used?
Cloud's actions of letting Tifa sleep on his shoulder could have been how he confirmed that he was friends with her, or something along that line.

So how would Cloud show his embarrassment then? That still doesn't break down "mutuality". (Or maybe Cloud is an exhibitionist )

He has that tendency to just shut up and look down.
I'm not trying to break down mutuality. I am trying to say that they may have mutually agreed not to be in a relationship since, well, they were fighting to save the world.

But this is supposed to be a debate, not an exchange of interpretations. We used facts for evidence and opinions does not matter. It's a debate about the non-canonity or the canonity of the LTD. Canonity is determined by the creators, and no amount of personal interpretation can make something canon.

Somehow I get the feeling that you really think we don't have facts used for evidence. Anastar has provided you her essay, which contains most of the evidence. But like all other evidences, it was deemed invalid and tore down.

The bolded part: Isn't all of this your interpretation? Because of what you see in context?

The proper thread for interpretation is the FF7 Relationships Thread

Spoken like an admin.

In the FTOIL page? Even those "feelings" were used in other couples as well as Ingus and Sara?

Ah yes. And that was used for the Clerith date scene too, might I add. Which, is continually being dismissed because hey, the text doesn't say anything about Cloud and Aerith. But the picture shows them there. Maybe their date was about sharing their feelings too.

You don't get embarrassed for those things, at least not with Tifa's reaction. You're free to interpret, but that will not always coincide with the creator's intent.

I would be embarrassed if I found out that we had an audience. Wouldn't you?

But sadly it's expensive here.

That's why I prefer buying it in Saudi Arabia. :lol:

Nobody told anyone to stop shipping I ship a lot of fanon and it's fun. I also collect Clerith fanart. I ship NakomaxThomas, I-NoxHazama and many other couple who never even met.

But at least it would lessen the fanwars.

For being blatant, I say not all couples like PDA (Public Display of Affection). In older Japanese cultures, couples don't walk side by side, they don't kiss and they don't hug in public.

Funny how Japanese mangas seem to show this differently.

I believe living together and raising kids is too blatant. Did you see the Cloud and Tifa drawings in the children's room? If Barret is the family's real dad why isn't he posted on the wall?

Don't ask me. Ask the kids. Maybe Denzel was the one who drew that picture (I don't think it was labeled, was it?) and it would be understandable. The kid didn't even know the guy.

I understand how Clerith makes sense, but I think it has been established in this thread that the issue is canonity. You're pushing a different debate.

I'm not pushing it. I stayed away actually. If you've seen Quex and I talking about it before, you'll see.

Well= Proving that she's consistent, clearing my confusion
Not Well= Giving a more confusing answer

Is there something wrong with that standard?

None at all.
The problem would be if you'll see her answer as enough proof.

Because I don't really get her flow of arguments. She's using hypothetical situations and opinions for the argument of non-canonity, but you get the impression that she is tearing down C/T and proving C/A. Many people agree with me and it's fair to ask her to explain what she really meant.

Not to be rude or anything, but both sides are guilty of tearing down each other's arguments and trying to disprove the other.

It would either solidify her stance or our stance. If she can do the former then I've helped your ship. Isn't that a good trade-off?

I think her stance is pretty much obvious. She's for Clerith, but she doesn't believe one pairing is canon. It's all about which the person prefers.

EDIT

P.S. I think it's better to settle some arguments(not all) in PM's. I don't want to get involved too much here.

Too late there. :p If you want, we could do this in PM.
If you still wanna talk with me that is.

Raven Roth said:
The problem is that, you don't do this. You tear down CloTi to make Clerith work. I know you do post some Clerith proving points but a large majority of your posts are tearing down any meaning between Cloud and Tifa and this is the only way it seems for Clerith to be valid in many arguments. Which is why, I think, everyone is taking up an issue with it.

I've had my fair share of the bolded part. Just the other way around.

Just saying. :whistle:

Vendel · Nov 19, 2011

ClerithRaven said:
Funny that only Tifa was embarrassed. And Cloud didn't do a thing. It was only Tifa who was embarrassed. Can I hear your opinion on that?.

I wish people would stop lying about this. Cloud does react. He doesn't run into a corner and fall on his knees with his face in his hands. But he does react.

But it's amazing how one little difference can change a scene. C/T come back to the airship and their friends tease them a bit. Tifa is very embarrassed for what they may have seen. And Cloud is clearly uncomfortable.

But if Cloud has no reaction? Well then there was nothing to be seen and Tifa is an emotionally unstable woman who has fits over the idea that the rest of the team saw her sleep. (Or was it getting rejected? I can never remember.)

Celes Chere · Nov 19, 2011

Can't you love a person as a friend? I know I do.

You sure can. But do you have a crush on a 'just a friend'? Do you ask a friend: "Do you love me?". To you tell your friend you want to start a new life with them, and blush around them? Do you raise children together, children that have some point looked up to you as parents? Really not likely...
Mutual feelings are of love because Cloud and Tifa were already established as friends.

Dashell · Nov 19, 2011

In all honesty, if you want to interpret the games and what not as Clerithy, that's fine. But you should acknowledge canon as well. When talking about canon, Clerith doesn't add up. I think this is part of the problem as well. People in this topic are not talking about preference or interpretation, we're talking about canon. Cloti is very much canon, but I don't care if you still see the game as Clerith.

Marle · Nov 19, 2011

CR

Glad to see you back. :3

ClerithRaven said:
I've had my fair share of the bolded part. Just the other way around.
Just saying.

Really? The only time I've seen this happen is when similar standards were applied to clerith that were being applied to cloti. But I'm sure it probably has happened. In the LTD, everyone's hands are tainted. :shifty:

I just don't feel that the cloti arguments are as based on how much clerith is impossible. :T Rather, they're more based on the actual relationship between C/T and have little if anything to do with Aerith and Cloud's relationship at all.

Arthur Pendragon said:
If you prefer one pairing over the other however, that makes you biased. That's not a bad thing, it's just that's the pairing you prefer so you're not likely going to agree at all with the other side of things. That makes you NOT neutral. Not believing there is a canon pair but believing the Clerith side has more romantic proof makes you a Clerith supporter, not someone who is neutral. The problem here is that you are trying to prove Clerith is possible, when lots have already said that both pairings are possible, just that Cloti is far more likely.

Pretty much this.

ClerithRaven · Nov 20, 2011

Vendel said:
I wish people would stop lying about this. Cloud does react. He doesn't run into a corner and fall on his knees with his face in his hands. But he does react.

But it's amazing how one little difference can change a scene. C/T come back to the airship and their friends tease them a bit. Tifa is very embarrassed for what they may have seen. And Cloud is clearly uncomfortable.

But if Cloud has no reaction? Well then there was nothing to be seen and Tifa is an emotionally unstable woman who has fits over the idea that the rest of the team saw her sleep. (Or was it getting rejected? I can never remember.)

I didn't say that he didn't have a reaction. He didn't do a thing for Tifa's embarrassment. I mean, hey, they shared their feelings and whatnot, so they're most likely more than friends or less than lovers.
But, as I remember from the scene, all we got was ellipses.

Arthur Pendragon said:
You sure can. But do you have a crush on a 'just a friend'? Do you ask a friend: "Do you love me?". To you tell your friend you want to start a new life with them, and blush around them? Do you raise children together, children that have some point looked up to you as parents? Really not likely...
Mutual feelings are of love because Cloud and Tifa were already established as friends.

I've had crushes on my friends. I do ask them that. I would blush if it was something I don't really say much. Oh, Barret and Tifa raised Marlene together before. Oh wait, damn, Marlene doesn't see them as parents at one time.

That's just me.

Raven Roth said:
CR Glad to see you back. :3

I'm gonna disappear again actually. I stayed away because of the "canon" issues here, so... off to the batmobile I will go.

Raven Roth said:
Really? The only time I've seen this happen is when similar standards were applied to clerith that were being applied to cloti. But I'm sure it probably has happened. In the LTD, everyone's hands are tainted.

Oh. But don't we do it too? I mean, apply standards and whatnot, comparing things? I think it's happened many times already. This has been going on for years now. It's expected.

Raven Roth said:
I just don't feel that the cloti arguments are as based on how much clerith is impossible. :T Rather, they're more based on the actual relationship between C/T and have little if anything to do with Aerith and Cloud's relationship at all.

Err. I find the bolded part... somewhat untrue. I've seen my fair share of it.

I'm gonna go disappear now. Since, this is really not that needed.

The Twilight Mexican · Nov 20, 2011

ClerithRaven said:
Ah yes, the FTOIL page. May I ask you this then...
Since it's the For The One I Love, and the date scene is there, regardless who it is, does that mean that whoever goes on a date with Cloud is in love with him? Because, it seems that since it is in the FTOIL page, it must be about love.

With the possible (probable?) exception of Barret, yes. Tifa and Aerith, of course, are in love with him, and Yuffie attempts to make a proclamation of her feelings if she goes on the date with him.

Barret makes a ... different kind of announcement.

ClerithRaven said:
And because of Tifa's line, you think that no words were ever used?
Cloud's actions of letting Tifa sleep on his shoulder could have been how he confirmed that he was friends with her, or something along that line.

Are you talking about the higher affection scene here? If so, then you know that the "For the One I Love" page actually says words weren't used.

ClerithRaven said:
He has that tendency to just shut up and look down.

He rubs the back of his head. That's a fairly typical way of showing embarassment in anime (and real life too, for that matter).

ClerithRaven said:
I'm not trying to break down mutuality. I am trying to say that they may have mutually agreed not to be in a relationship since, well, they were fighting to save the world.

So, why would they even have a discussion like that when they aren't even sure they're going to live through the week? "Hey, here's something not to fight for as we march to our deaths tomorrow."

Declarations of romantic feelings -- or even just an end-of-the-world fuck -- on the eve of the apocalypse are part of the human condition. What you're talking about isn't.

ClerithRaven said:
Ah yes. And that was used for the Clerith date scene too, might I add.

It was used for the Gold Saucer date in general, to be accurate. All the other screenshots on the page have named couples. The caption for that one goes out of its way to specify that the event applies to no couple in particular.

ClerithRaven said:
Which, is continually being dismissed because hey, the text doesn't say anything about Cloud and Aerith. But the picture shows them there. Maybe their date was about sharing their feelings too.

Yet you know from seeing that scene, from reading Cloud's 10th AU profile ("Both Aerith, who is forthright, and Tifa, who is demure, have feelings for Cloud but he is none the wiser to them"), and from reading the U20 Scenario's description of what happens on each date ("During the date, Aerith voices her feelings for Cloud") that such a thing didn't happen.

So, sure, there are feelings professed there, but only Aerith's. Just like Tifa's are the only ones expressed on her date, Yuffie's the only ones on her date, and ... well, whatever the heck happens on Barret's.

Aerith expresses her feelings. Cloud expresses nothing but confusion.

Seriously, if you're going to suggest that "Maybe their [Cloud and Aerith] date was about sharing their feelings," I'm first going to emphasize your own use of "maybe" and then also point out that you'd have to apply that same standard to the Tifa and Yuffie dates as well. Do you believe a confirmation of mutual feelings is what went down on those dates?

ClerithRaven said:
Don't ask me. Ask the kids. Maybe Denzel was the one who drew that picture (I don't think it was labeled, was it?) and it would be understandable. The kid didn't even know the guy.

Not really a point in favor of Barret being the father figure in the family. :monster:

ClerithRaven said:
Not to be rude or anything, but both sides are guilty of tearing down each other's arguments and trying to disprove the other.

If you're claiming that you believe there is no canon outcome, you'd have to tear down both/support both rather than tear down one/support one.

ClerithRaven said:
I've had my fair share of the bolded part. Just the other way around.
Just saying.

I'm genuinely curious to hear where you've seen that here. I don't think anyone here who argues that Cloti is canon is going to build their case for that on tackling Clerith evidence. Not even on disputing that Cloud had a special bond with Aerith or that she means a great deal to him.

They'll build their case on things that speak of Cloud and Tifa's feelings for each other.

The Twilight Mexican · Nov 20, 2011

So, hito was kind enough to provide me with scans (which Mako had previously provided to him) of some stuff I asked him for.

One of them is the "Link to the Original" page for FFVII from the Dissidia Ultimania (pg. 530):

http://i.imgur.com/taY9S.jpg

So, yeah, one of at least three references to Aerith being Cloud's nakama. For anybody who's still hung up on that word.

And more notably, the page with the "Cloud & Tifa" keyword from the CC Complete Guide (pg. 280):

http://i.imgur.com/5L6Z1.jpg

Who dat is?

A screenshot of Tifa's "words aren't the only way" line accompanying the "Cloud & Tifa" keyword.

No, we're not being hammered with the relevance and significance of that scene. We're not being asked -- nay, told -- to treat it as the canon version of events.

OneWingedDemon · Nov 20, 2011

LOL and it says they return to living together. Because, you know, that wasn't obvious in the movie or anything :monster:

Danseru-kun · Nov 20, 2011

It seems that Ariadne had already answers some of the questions on advance and I agree with him. So I'll just reply on some other parts.

ClerithRaven said:
Jejemon!

I'm gonna stop all the jeje jokes before the jeje culture infects this forum. It's worse than Geostigma.

ClerithRaven said:
Eh, no. That she believes in Clerith because it makes sense to her, but she does not think either is canon.

I wish she could reflect that better because many people get confused.

ClerithRaven said:
Why? Can't you love a person as a friend? I know I do.

Of course you can, but in the FTOIL page, it's about romantic love. Non romantic love is specified in the section below:

"Scenes involving “love” other than romantic love"
"In the “FF” series, there’s not just the romantic love between men and women; there are various forms of love depicted." -FTOIL Extra Thread

ClerithRaven said:
And because of Tifa's line, you think that no words were ever used?
Cloud's actions of letting Tifa sleep on his shoulder could have been how he confirmed that he was friends with her, or something along that line.

"Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match." FTOIL page

That's the answer along with Ariadne's

ClerithRaven said:
He has that tendency to just shut up and look down.
I'm not trying to break down mutuality. I am trying to say that they may have mutually agreed not to be in a relationship since, well, they were fighting to save the world.

Again, the section for the FTOIL page is for romantic love.

ClerithRaven said:
Funny how Japanese mangas seem to show this differently.

Funny how chubby Spartans are given dashboard abs in 300. Funny how old American movies portray Filipino soldiers as either a coward or an uncivilized people you should pacify. Funny how soap operas always portray the rich as evil and the poor as saints.

I brought up the drawing because the argument of Barret's status has gotten old. I believe Zealkin's post in the previous page can satisfy you. and Ariadne's as well.

ClerithRaven said:
I'm not pushing it. I stayed away actually. If you've seen Quex and I talking about it before, you'll see.

I'm going to accept that answer because this kind of thing is just a difference of understandings of the topic. No issue.

ClerithRaven said:
None at all.
The problem would be if you'll see her answer as enough proof.

I'm just one reader, who knows if to others that's enough. If that's enough for the majority while I still whine then that's my problem.

ClerithRaven said:
Somehow I get the feeling that you really think we don't have facts used for evidence. Anastar has provided you her essay, which contains most of the evidence. But like all other evidences, it was deemed invalid and tore down.

You have facts presented, you have your evidence and you have intelligence of course, but so is the opposing side. The problem is that we got confused with the mixup Clerith evidence and evidence for non-canonity of who Cloud loves. When scrutinized that kind of argumentation we get the replay "she was merely saying her interpretation."

What bugs me is that large amount of skepticism you have for the evidence of Cloti canonity when you argue for non-canonity. If you're arguing for no-canon, skepticism must be equal.

1. "Cloud and Tifa never blatantly showed anything" so there's no canon. Ingus and Sara as far as I know did not do anything either.
2. Aerith being pictured in the FTOIL page despite not being specified is your proof for both non-canonity and Clerith. But you insist the optionality of the HW scene. But when the HW scene is overwhelmingly confirmed as the HA version, you interpret it as friendship or mutual feelings for saving the world.
3. Cloud's undying feeling... of guilt for Aerith means that Cloud cannot love Tifa.
4. Tifa's complex feeling for Aerith is proof of jealousy, and jealousy means that Cloud loves Aerith, despite the quote having nothing to do with Cloud's feelings.
5. Aerith living in Cloud's heart. You view it as romantic and Cloud living with Tifa is most likely not romantic despite Aerith living in everyone's heart.
6. Refusing to accept that Tifa's is Cloud's koibito because he's not named. While the woman in the COLW is definitely Aerith.
7. Tifa's asking "Do you love me?" as proof for non-reciprocity, even if couples ask that all the time.

Of course, I'm not saying you, ClerithRaven, use all of that arguments but the Clerith camp does.

ClerithRaven said:
The bolded part: Isn't all of this your interpretation? Because of what you see in context?

I would lie to you if I told you that there's no interpretation involved in the pro-canon side, but those interpretations must be consistent with the official information, not with "could be's" and "probably's".

Also, you can use pro-Clerith arguments for non-canonity. Clerith doesn't cancel out Cloti like adding a negative and a positive sign.

EPIC MISTAKE EDIT: You CAN'T use pro-Clerith arguments for non-canonity.

Nobody is stopping you to personally interpret their relationship in a romantic light, but interpreting official statements that has nothing to do with romance as romantic or interpreting romantic information as non-romantic is a wrong kind of interpretation.

I'm not saying that Cloti is flawless and Clerith is full of twisted facts, both sides have reason and bias at the same time, but our posts speak for themselves. There's an audience here not participating but are just observing, and there's a pool of neutal people who reasonably judge this debate. Before I participated here, I belonged to that audience.

ClerithRaven said:
Spoken like an admin.

I am an admin, but not of this site

ClerithRaven said:
I would be embarrassed if I found out that we had an audience. Wouldn't you?

I would, but if it was friendship, that's overreacting. I would just probably look away or cover my face. And Cloud does react, he's not just as expressive like Zack.

ClerithRaven said:
Not to be rude or anything, but both sides are guilty of tearing down each other's arguments and trying to disprove the other.

ClerithRaven said:
I've had my fair share of the bolded part. Just the other way around.
Just saying.

That's what debating is for, you tear down each other's argument. Tearing down a relationship is different, and that's what Anastar is doing to Cloti.

Let's use this premise: Tifa and Aerith both loves Cloud.

I think nobody in this thread discount the special bond between Aerith and Cloud, it's just the matter of viewing it as romantic or not. Cloud grieves for his loss of her, Cloud continues to cherish her memory while Aerith continues to watch over him. Whether Cloud loved her back or not, it's still a very beautiful story. It doesn't get torn down even if you exclude romance.

The problem is that Anastar tears down C/T as a one sided romance. And as we described before, her explanation for the LA scene is that Cloud's pining for Aerith, leaving his family and Tifa, who continues waiting for him to love her back. This is a mutually destructive relationship, and it bothers a lot of people in this thread because Anastar sees that as Tifa being strong and independent.

ClerithRaven said:
I think her stance is pretty much obvious. She's for Clerith, but she doesn't believe one pairing is canon. It's all about which the person prefers.

Then separate her proof for Clerith and her proof for non-canonity. You can prove that Cloti is canon even if you hate their relationship.

ClerithRaven said:
If you still wanna talk with me that is.

Of course I do. I just find replying a tedious task because I don't have my own PC.

Celes Chere · Nov 20, 2011

@Raven - I believe a crush is separate from a friend. If you're crushing on your friend I classify them as "a crush" not a friend. xD A potential love interest, etc. That is just my view as well though, it's not solid :monster:

Strangelove · Nov 20, 2011

Ariadne said:
Are you talking about the higher affection scene here? If so, then you know that the "For the One I Love" page actually says words weren't used.

"Oh yes, oh yes, oh God yes" are very much words!

Arthur Pendragon said:
Mutual feelings are of love because Cloud and Tifa were already established as friends.

That this has to be said at all after they featured on a page specificially about romantic love is shocking.

And by 'shocking' I mean totally expected at this point.

Ariadne said:
No, we're not being hammered with the relevance and significance of that scene. We're not being asked -- nay, told -- to treat it as the canon version of events.

I have too much times on my hands (not that I wasn't already working on this thing anyway), and counted how many times each was mentioned in the UO alone. Because we all know the best way to solve a problem like this.

(Bolded for specific mentions of the high version, italic for low, and no formatting for ones that are just romantic sounding without specifying)

- Cloud communicating his feelings with Tifa (P.15)
- Tifa communicating her feelings with Cloud (P.27)
- "Words aren't the only way..." and stating that they confirm their feelings of desire for each other (P.27)
- Cloud and Tifa disclose their feelings for each other (P.198)
- The Highwind conversation is short and simple, and Tifa's reaction is "you were listening?" and tapping her foot on the ground (P.198)
- The conversation is deeper and Tifa's reaction is "you were watching?" with her collapsing on the floor in embarrassment (P.198)
- The night they spend together is significant (P.198)
- Cloud and Tifa's feelings for one another come through strongly in the dialogue (P.201)
- Dialogue for the high version (P.201)
- Dialogue for the low version (P.201)

5 references to the high version (plus 3 talking about them sharing their feelings with each other, 2 with implicit romantic implications), versus 2 mentions of the low version. Minus one of those points for each if you exclude the part just showing you the differences in dialogue, and you get a single mention of the low version (followed by 2 high version references).

In short, I don't know why this is such a big deal/why I am still posting in this topic :awesome:

Dashell · Nov 20, 2011

Wait which two are romantic? I know "feelings of desire" is but what's the other one?

Strangelove · Nov 20, 2011

The first two. There's something about that phrase (想いを通わせ&#12427

that's just romantic. I'm sure I wrote about it before. It was also used a bunch of other times for them as well.

But I say so much and it gets forgotten, even by me :awesome:

Dashell · Nov 20, 2011

The one on page 15 you mean?

The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

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