The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Master Bates]

"Oh yes, oh yes, oh God yes" are very much words!

Those words were too incoherently uttered by them to be considered words, Hito. They were more like loud moans. Well I guess if you do consider "ahs" and "ohs" pass as words then... I don't fucking know what I'm talking about.

That this has to be said at all after they featured on a page specificially about romantic love is shocking.

And by 'shocking' I mean totally expected at this point.

lol this.

Why are they still trying to pass the scene as "platonic love for a friend" when it was in the FTOIL page? Wouldn't that make that angle slashed out?

If it was a "love other than romantic love", then SE should've put it in the "other loves" panel with Terra.

I have too much times on my hands (not that I wasn't already working on this thing anyway), and counted how many times each was mentioned in the UO alone. Because we all know the best way to solve a problem like this.

(Bolded for specific mentions of the high version, italic for low, and no formatting for ones that are just romantic sounding without specifying)

- Cloud communicating his feelings with Tifa (P.15)
- Tifa communicating her feelings with Cloud (P.27)
- "Words aren't the only way..." and stating that they confirm their feelings of desire for each other (P.27)
- Cloud and Tifa disclose their feelings for each other (P.198)
- The Highwind conversation is short and simple, and Tifa's reaction is "you were listening?" and tapping her foot on the ground (P.198)
- The conversation is deeper and Tifa's reaction is "you were watching?" with her collapsing on the floor in embarrassment (P.198)
- The night they spend together is significant (P.198)
- Cloud and Tifa's feelings for one another come through strongly in the dialogue (P.201)
- Dialogue for the high version (P.201)
- Dialogue for the low version (P.201)

5 references to the high version (plus 3 talking about them sharing their feelings with each other, 2 with implicit romantic implications), versus 2 mentions of the low version. Minus one of those points for each if you exclude the part just showing you the differences in dialogue, and you get a single mention of the low version (followed by 2 high version references).

In short, I don't know why this is such a big deal/why I am still posting in this topic

Hito is a mathematician, apparently. I always knew it to be so.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

"Oh yes, oh yes, oh God yes" are very much words!

We would know, wouldn't we, baby?

The first two. There's something about that phrase (想いを通わせ&#12427 that's just romantic. I'm sure I wrote about it before.

Yeah, "communicate their feelings" is implicitly romantic.

That this has to be said at all after they featured on a page specificially about romantic love is shocking.

And by 'shocking' I mean totally expected at this point.

I can't deny being shocked every single time.

I have too much times on my hands (not that I wasn't already working on this thing anyway), and counted how many times each was mentioned in the UO alone. Because we all know the best way to solve a problem like this.

As long as we aren't assigning point values greater than 1 at each mention, it's not without some legitimacy.

(Bolded for specific mentions of the high version, italic for low, and no formatting for ones that are just romantic sounding without specifying)

- Cloud communicating his feelings with Tifa (P.15)
- Tifa communicating her feelings with Cloud (P.27)
- "Words aren't the only way..." and stating that they confirm their feelings of desire for each other (P.27)
- Cloud and Tifa disclose their feelings for each other (P.198)
- The Highwind conversation is short and simple, and Tifa's reaction is "you were listening?" and tapping her foot on the ground (P.198)
- The conversation is deeper and Tifa's reaction is "you were watching?" with her collapsing on the floor in embarrassment (P.198)
- The night they spend together is significant (P.198)
- Cloud and Tifa's feelings for one another come through strongly in the dialogue (P.201)
- Dialogue for the high version (P.201)
- Dialogue for the low version (P.201)

5 references to the high version (plus 3 talking about them sharing their feelings with each other, 2 with implicit romantic implications), versus 2 mentions of the low version. Minus one of those points for each if you exclude the part just showing you the differences in dialogue, and you get a single mention of the low version (followed by 2 high version references).

I'd also count the bit in Yuffie's profile where it speaks of Cloud speaking nicely to her upon her return to the airship being a consequence of the night spent with Tifa as a reference to the higher affection version, though it's true it isn't explicit about this (and Cloud's dialogue with her is the same in both versions).

In any case, more mentions, following the format from hito's post:

10th Anniversary Ultimania
- FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, pg. 118 (pg. 120 in the Revised Edition); Story Playback section; "Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other and confirm them match." (Accompanies screenshot of a line exclusive to the higher affection version)

U20 Scenario
- Script of the higher affection version; Impressive Scenes section (pg. 199)
- "And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match" (pg. 232)
- Deviation sidebar mentions that there are two different versions, but only bothers to describe the higher version (pg. 232)
- "For the One I Love" page (pg. 394)

CC Ultimania
- Cloud and Tifa communicate their feelings to one another (pg. 33)

CC Complete Guide
- "Cloud & Tifa" keyword accompanied by screenshot with the "words aren't the only way" line, clearly setting up a romantic context to this entry (pg. 280)

Memorial Album
- Script of only the higher affection version (pp. 241-242)

FF Art Museum trading card collection
- The "words aren't the only way" line is on Tifa's card (card #068)


Even if one doesn't recognize all uses of "communicated their feelings" as referring to the high version, even references that are specific to that version outnumber the "version neutral" references. Hell, they outnumber the "version neutral" and lower affection version references combined.

In short, I don't know why this is such a big deal/why I am still posting in this topic

Not even light can escape its pull.

 

[Strangelove]

The one on page 15 you mean?

It's repeated on pages 15 and 27 with the names switched around.

Those words were too incoherently uttered by them to be considered words, Hito. They were more like loud moans. Well I guess if you do consider "ahs" and "ohs" pass as words then... I don't fucking know what I'm talking about.

Since we're allowed to add whatever dialogue we like to it, I maintain that it includes the words "pet me, Cloud! PET ME LIKE A CHOCOBO!"

But chocobo petting was my downfall

We would know, wouldn't we, baby?

とある山へ一緒に「釣り」に行かないか？　カウボーイ　

I'd also count the bit in Yuffie's profile where it speaks of Cloud speaking nicely to her upon her return to the airship being a consequence of the night spent with Tifa as a reference to the higher affection version, though it's true it isn't explicit about this (and Cloud's dialogue with her is the same in both versions).

Yuffie's line was what made me try to count them up in the first place, but I left it out because apparently it's not affected by which version of the scene you get.

Not even light can escape its pull.

Years of this crap have made me too bitter to live in the light, so I must like in the darkness.

Also I'm taking up a career writing bad vampire romance fiction

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

とある山へ一緒に「釣り」に行かないか？　カウボーイ　

::lick::

Yuffie's line was what made me try to count them up in the first place, but I left it out because apparently it's not affected by which version of the scene you get.

Fair enough.

Years of this crap have made me too bitter to live in the light, so I must like in the darkness.

Also I'm taking up a career writing bad vampire romance fiction

Redundant, much?

 

[Vendel]

All these maths are giving me a headache.

But something else has been bugging me now that I see that list. How is it that the LA scene being mentioned somehow invalidates the other quotes where we are simply told the HA scene happened?

And yet the "Undying feelings" quote means love despite multiple instances describing Cloud's guilt in relation to Aerith?

 

[ClerithRaven]

For the FTOIL page, like I said, the date scene's text doesn't tell of Aerith specifically. So whoever goes on the date with Cloud has feelings of love for him. Whether it was Tifa, Aerith, Yuffie, or Barret. Hell yeah, Barret.

And yet the "Undying feelings" quote means love despite multiple instances describing Cloud's guilt in relation to Aerith?

His guilt ended in AC/C as you say. So how would that be undying if it could end?

 

[Master Bates]

His guilt ended in AC/C as you say. So how would that be undying if it could end?

Undying doesn't mean eternal. It is immortal yet it is not indestructible. And even "Immortals" can be killed.

But Ryu says this best with this quote:

An undying man can be killed. An undying hate can be assauged. An undying guilt can be lifted.

The word "undying" only implies that it will perpetuate unless it is eventually destroyed.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Precisely.

That which is undying is only so until it has died. For examples within Final Fantasy, one need look no further than the last boss of FFXII. The form Vayne takes when he fuses with Venat's power is called "The Undying" -- and not just in the English translation.

The Japanese name for this boss is 不滅なるもの -- "That which/he who is undying." The Occuria of the same game are also referred to in both languages as "the undying" (不滅なる神; "kami who are undying") but they very much can be killed, as Venat kindly demonstrates.

For that matter, if one wants to make the case this feeling being described isn't guilt, they're still going to have to attempt divorcing that quote from its full context (i.e. the sentences that immediately follow): "Its relation to the church scene is.... Yeah. I'll leave this to everyone's imagination. (laughs)"

Here's the full quote in Japanese, by the way:

エアリスはかつてともに旅をした仲間で、受け手側の皆さんにも、それぞれの愛情や想いがあると思います。この物語のクラウドも、エアリスに対して、いまもなお 死なぬ想いは あると・・・・。この教会の場面との関係は・・・・・うーん。このあたりは皆さんのご想像におまかせします（笑）。

The only church scene shown to the public at that point in time was the one in which the guilt wolf appears.

For the sake of being informative, by the way, Nomura described Cloud's feeling for Aerith in that quote with "死なぬ" ("shinanu") rather than the adjective used above with Vayne.

 

[Dashell]

To use another example:

His guilt ended in AC/C as you say. So how would that be undying if it could end?

To this day, I have an undying body.... does that mean I'm immortal?


Also re: feelings quote. Isn't that same phrase used for the CC Ultimania?

(CCU, pg. 33)
クラウドとは物語の終盤に想いを通わせ、「AC」「DC」の時代は一緒に暮らしている。

So is this one romantic too? And is it just that it seems romantic or is it definitely romantic. I mean would anyone in Japan see that as romance? If that makes sense (just wondering since we always hear that it doesn't say what feelings)

 

[Strangelove]

So is this one romantic too? And is it just that it seems romantic or is it definitely romantic. I mean would anyone in Japan see that as romance? If that makes sense (just wondering since we always hear that it doesn't say what feelings)

Having 想い bumps up its romantic vibe. Not that it can't be used for other things like how you love your friends or your homeland or something, it's just more 'emotional' and nicer than just 思い, which can be negative thoughts too or just plain neutral. But 想い is more specifically showing there's feeling there. And in the case of a man and a woman (who have both indicated feelings for each other in the past), yeah. Sounds romantic.

There's always going to be a chance that people will take things differently (or maybe the people I asked about it were being modest), but from what I heard people would mostly read it as romantic.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

For the FTOIL page, like I said, the date scene's text doesn't tell of Aerith specifically. So whoever goes on the date with Cloud has feelings of love for him. Whether it was Tifa, Aerith, Yuffie, or Barret. Hell yeah, Barret.

See this above? It is basically true, and is what we've been trying to explain for some time now. Cloud is officially clueless about their attempts to confess their feelings for him, but they DID try to confess said feelings during the date. That includes Barret, though his "confession" is more like a "baseless accusation" Still, all do involve romance in some way, and that's why the dates get a mention on the FTOIL page at all. It's also why no one *cough*Aerith*cough* gets mentioned by name in that bit.

Good show there, CR, and welcome back (even if your presence here is temporary).

His guilt ended in AC/C as you say. So how would that be undying if it could end?

This ending bit is why I couldn't bring myself to thank the post despite the excellent first paragraph. "Undying" has been defined and explained multiple times here. The fact that Cloud's dumb ass got over his guilt and moved on (moved on here meaning back to Tifa and their kids where he belongs and should have been all along if he wasn't somewhat of a tool) does not prevent the quote from which "undying feelings" comes from focusing on his guilt.

And I want to point out, just to head off any arguments based on this, that no one is saying guilt is all Cloud feels for Aerith at the time. Clearly he cares about her a lot or he'd have no reason to feel guilt to this extent. What we ARE saying is that the quote focuses entirely on the guilt, and it is as such not something that can be used as proof of Cloud loving Aerith romantically.

 

[Master Bates]

For the sake of being informative, by the way, Nomura described Cloud's feeling for Aerith in that quote with "死なぬ" ("shinanu") rather than the adjective used above with Vayne.

So uhmmm... I'm curious. What's the difference? I mean, is there any significant changes from this word to 不滅なるもの or is the context still unaffected?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

No, the context isn't affected. It's the difference between "undying" and "does not die." While "shi"/"death" is a noun, the way it's placed in front of "feeling" makes it an adjective modifying "feeling." So it's "undying feeling."

 

[Master Bates]

^Ah... I get it. So instead of "feelings that don't die", the "undying feelings" translation is more accurate. I dunno but the sentence does kinda change a bit if you're going to change the wording but... okay, got it.

Thanks, Tres.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

No problem.

So, how do you feel the sentence changes?

 

[Strangelove]

I'm going to go off on pedantic semantic rants because this is the part of this whole topic I find most interesting

"feelings that don't die"

Technically, there isn't a Japanese equivalent to things like 'that' or 'which' or 'who' (relative pronouns) in Japanese.

'The man takes the pictures' would be 男が写真を撮る (man - [subject marker] - photograph - [object marker] - to take). 'The man who takes the picture' in Japanese would be 写真を撮る男 (photograph - [object marker] - to take - man). You've just moved stuff around without need to add another word in there. 'The walking man' and 'the man who is walking' would both be the same (歩いている男 = is walking - man).

So I don't think 'feelings that don't die' is necessarily bad, but it's kind of clunky and awkward. 'Undying' just sounds more elegant (also that 死なぬ makes it sound more poetic than the regular version of 死なない; the same with the 不滅なるもの instead of the more standard 不滅なも&#12398.

While "shi"/"death" is a noun

Noun? 死なぬ is from the verb 死ぬ

 

[Master Bates]

So "don't die" still doesn't necessarily mean "eternal", right? And yeah, it does sound kinda awkward.

Oh, and thank you for the further clarifications, loveliest Hito~

EDIT: Just realized I look rude for not answering Tres' question. But I already did.

 

[Dashell]

Having 想い bumps up its romantic vibe. Not that it can't be used for other things like how you love your friends or your homeland or something, it's just more 'emotional' and nicer than just 思い, which can be negative thoughts too or just plain neutral. But 想い is more specifically showing there's feeling there. And in the case of a man and a woman (who have both indicated feelings for each other in the past), yeah. Sounds romantic.

There's always going to be a chance that people will take things differently (or maybe the people I asked about it were being modest), but from what I heard people would mostly read it as romantic.

So basically it IS dependent on context. It's not like the phrase automatically means "romantic love" right? I sent it to allexperts.com and they basically told me that. I completely agree with you Hito, but I wanted to hear what someone would say if we devoiced the whole thing of context.

Actually he said the feelings were "all over the place" and I have no idea where he got that from O_o I think he thought the feelings were "going back and forth" not so much the communicating.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Noun? 死なぬ is from the verb 死ぬ

I feel you, baby (more than most know ), but I was kind of trying to head off at the pass any concerns that might arise about whether "death"/"dying" could be treated like an adjective modifying "feeling." I recall some objections back when the similary constructed sentence about "desire feelings"/"feelings of desire" in Tifa's UO profile was first discussed.

 

[Danseru-kun]

I know this is somewhat out of topic, but I gotta post this before I forget. I think another contention against the "Barret is the father figure of the family" argument is the scene in AC where the party helped Tifa and Denzel.

Denzel: "Who are they?"
Tifa: "They're friends."

If's Barret's the dad, I think the conversation is different, Denzel should have at least known who Barret is.

That's all for now.

EDIT: Or Tifa could have said, "that's your daddy!"

 

[Strangelove]

So basically it IS dependent on context. It's not like the phrase automatically means "romantic love" right? I sent it to allexperts.com and they basically told me that. I completely agree with you Hito, but I wanted to hear what someone would say if we devoiced the whole thing of context.

I don't know if I'll ever understand the need to have things told to people by someone who do not know the context of the situation, as if having no knowledge of what's being discussed suddenly gives you better understanding than those who know what they're talking about.

I know where it comes from, the desire to get an outsider's say on the matter. But the notion that no one could possibly be objective because they're obviously biased towards X (which would be whichever side happens to come out favourably in this instance) is so insulting, but I should be used to it by now. So I no longer care if people don't believe, because I've learnt that in this corner of fandom people believe what they want to hear and consider anything else a lie. So whatever, fuck it.

I don't mind being told I'm wrong, because despite what people think I really don't care about the outcome of this. That's my definition of neutral (as opposed to 'there is no outcome'). There's only one thing I'd lie about. And that's Fang/Vanille. Which I can't even lie about because I'd rather be accurate than have my whims fulfilled, or trust me when I say there'd be a lot of convenient mistranslations and handy FFXIII Ultimania/novel/drama CD tidbits from me there. So from this point on trying to prove things to people who won't listen because everyone must totally be lying about this super important issue can go to Hell. I just find it an intellectually interesting topic so will talk about it from that point of view.

oh wow look at that random rant there

If you wrote it 思いを通わせる then I guess you could probably use it in a variety of situations, but having 想い makes it more emotional/romantic, and when I asked someone about it they said that the vast majority of time it's pretty much 'between lovers'. It's sharing and understanding a particular feeling, which with the way it's written is romantic a lot of the time. Actually, I'm overlapping this with the similar 心を通わせる in my head now (used in the CC Complete Guide's Cloud and Tifa keyword text), which is more general/overall thoughts and feelings of a person (or an animal you might be really close to). So if I'm getting confusing, that's why. But 想い is a specific feeling. And that's love a lot of the time.

I feel you, baby (more than most know ), but I was kind of trying to head off at the pass any concerns that might arise about whether "death"/"dying" could be treated like an adjective modifying "feeling." I recall some objections back when the similary constructed sentence about "desire feelings"/"feelings of desire" in Tifa's UO profile was first discussed.

This is another place where context is important I could say 買った店 and that could be the shop I bought some undisclosed object at, or the shop that I bought. You'd only know if you had the context.

I'm feeling a bit thick now, but what's the other way it could be taken that you were trying to avoid? Not sure I get it I can't think of any other way to take it.

(Did someone actually say "desire feelings"? Because I think I want to kill myself if they did.)

So "don't die" still doesn't necessarily mean "eternal", right? And yeah, it does sound kinda awkward.

I don't know, I just take it as... doesn't die

 

[Ryushikaze]

Undying, first off, is always a figurative word unless applied to a living organism (and even then is used in a sense beyond it's literal capacity, except when Quex uses it in this thread), since things which are not alive are somewhat by definition not capable of death.

What it means, how it's used (even in relation to the living) is that normal factors do not degrade it. Time won't destroy a man, use won't drain a battery, etc. etc.
This does not mean those things are immutable. Both the undying man and the battery can be destroyed, can be altered.

So even if you go with 'undying' vs' Do not die', it doesn't mean nothing can change those feelings.

To be perfectly frank, even an undying love can go sour if you learn something unforgivable about your beloved.

And correct me if I'm wrong (Can't be arsed to find the specific phrase), but the phrase 'to this day' is used, yes? That gives us a time limit on when the 'not dying' is applicable to.

 

[Master Bates]

And correct me if I'm wrong (Can't be arsed to find the specific phrase), but the phrase 'to this day' is used, yes? That gives us a time limit on when the 'not dying' is applicable to.

The complete quote:

"I think that for all those players who once traveled with her as comrades,
each carries their own feelings and love for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also
carries his own undying feeling for Aerith, even now.... Its relation to the
church scene is.... Yeah. I'll leave this to everyone's imagination. (laughs)"
- Nomura

And in some translations I saw, the words "to this day" are in place of "even now" but that doesn't make any significant changes.

edit: oh, and I forgot to add, that quote came out BEFORE the original Advent Children was released (Famitsu PS2, published in their October 24, 2003 issue).

 

[Strangelove]

Tres quoted the complete thing a mere one page back

エアリスはかつてともに旅をした仲間で、受け手側の皆さんにも、それぞれの愛情や想いがあると思います。この物語のクラウドも、エアリスに対して、いまもなお 死なぬ想いは あると・・・・。この教会の場面との関係は・・・・・うーん。このあたりは皆さんのご想像におまかせします（笑）。

I think that for all those players who once traveled with her as comrades, each carries their own feelings and love for Aerith.

At the risk of repeating myself (which is all this topic is, really), it's Aerith who is 'a comrade who once/previously travelled together with [some undisclosed and thus totally unknowable person(s)]'. It's not saying the players were those 'comrades' ('nakama' lolz let's all go there again), there's no 'as' in there. There's the lack of relative pronouns again. かつてともに旅をした is modifying 仲間, and で comes from である and is used to link this first line (Aerith is a comrade who formerly travelled with [???], and I think the audience also has their own affections and feelings).

This used to get (and probably still does because nothing changes) brought up to claim that it's saying Cloud has feelings for Aerith different from the rest of AVALANCHE when it was used in its "for those who travelled with Aerith as comrades..." incarnation. But there's nothing like that in there either, because it's not talking about AVALANCHE since Aerith is the 'comrade' being talked about.

 

[Dashell]

I don't know if I'll ever understand the need to have things told to people by someone who do not know the context of the situation, as if having no knowledge of what's being discussed suddenly gives you better understanding that those who know what they're talking about.

I know where it comes from, the desire to get an outsider's say on the matter. But the notion that no one could possibly be objective because they're obviously biased towards X (which would be whichever side happens to come out favourably in this instance) is so insulting, but I should be used to it by now. So I no longer care if people don't believe, because I've learnt that in this corner of fandom people believe what they want to hear and consider anything else a lie. So whatever, fuck it.

Oh geeze, sorry if I offended you. You KNOW that I completely trust you probably more than anyone, but whenever a translation comes out that people don't like, they run around all over the place until they find one that they like. Well at least one of them does. I distinctly remember a certain someone posting that "Feelings of desire" quote to at least 3 different places until they found one where someone left out that part and THAT'S the one they stuck with. I also remember the other translations they got DID say it was a declaration of romantic love. That's why I check these things. To get ahead of the game.

You've proven yourself time and time again to be completely unbias (like when you explained koibito did NOT always mean lover BEFORE CoLW came out, and when you explained that the "Dimly fell in love with" didn't mean "secretly fell in love with) in this situation so, for the life of me, I can't figure out why someone would trust you up until you said something they didn't like... I mean I know WHY but if that's really the reason they decided not to trust you, it's just a sad sad reason.

Also I asked both you and him at the same time pretty much . Just headed them off at the pass

And FWIW, the guy I asked admitted he was wrong about the "all over the place" and look what happens when I told him it was between a male and female and asked about if you would say "exchanged feelings" vs "exchanged feelings about the superbowl"

As to your second question, no. It's better to use 伝える for normal exchanges. 想いを通わせる implies something intimate.

Full link:
http://www.allexperts.com/user.cgi?m=6&catID=1797&expID=116720&qID=5001570

And please, to anyone reading this, I don't really care if you don't trust the guy or me or w/e, but PLEASE do NOT focus on the first answer he gave since he admitted he was wrong about what he said in the second answer. Please? Thank you.

(Did someone actually say "desire feelings"? Because I think I want to kill myself if they did.)

I believe, "They desire each other to be around" being argued.