The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Strangelove]

Oh geeze, sorry if I offended you.

How vain are you, thinking that post was about you? I was just reminded of all the past instances when this 'get someone from the outside' has been used.

I meant to add something stating that it wasn't something personal, as jumping into a big rant while quoting someone does look personal, but it got lost within my rage-filled heart

It's better to use 伝える for normal exchanges.

Like, I don't know, 想いをつたえられるのは、言葉だけじゃないよ…… Wait a minute, they did you that one

Which is why I don't understand the whole 'there might be feelings in the low version' argument. Using only the game to back it up, you've got one scene that doesn't mention feelings and one that directly mentions feelings (and how you don't need words to communicate them). If they then talk about sharing feelings in related books, I don't see a massive leap to assume they're talking about the scene that actually uses the word 'feelings'.

I believe, "They desire each other to be around" being argued.

What kind of black magic you must have to use to get that from 互いを求める気持ちを確かめ合う is beyond me But just to drive the point home:

互い = each other
を = object marker
求める = to desire, want
互いを求める = to want/desire each other
気持ち = feelings (different word this time but same meaning, being modified by what just came before it)
互いを求める気持ち = feelings of wanting/desiring each other
確かめ合う = to confirm together/with each other

Together they are confirming their feelings of wanting one another. That's the high affection version of the Highwind scene that they chose to highlight in the UO (page 27).

 

[Ryushikaze]

Tres quoted the complete thing a mere one page back

エアリスはかつてともに旅をした仲間で、受け手側の皆さんにも、それぞれの愛情や想いがあると思います。この物語のクラウドも、エアリスに対して、いまもなお 死なぬ想いは あると・・・・。この教会の場面との関係は・・・・・うーん。このあたりは皆さんのご想像におまかせします（笑）。

GLORIOUS CAN'T BE ARSED-NESS.

At the risk of repeating myself (which is all this topic is, really), it's Aerith who is 'a comrade who once/previously travelled together with [some undisclosed and thus totally unknowable person(s)]'. It's not saying the players were those 'comrades' ('nakama' lolz let's all go there again), there's no 'as' in there. There's the lack of relative pronouns again. かつてともに旅をした is modifying 仲間, and で comes from である and is used to link this first line (Aerith is a comrade who formerly travelled with [???], and I think the audience also has their own affections and feelings).

Ah, Japan, you and your silly omissions of Pronouns.

This used to get (and probably still does because nothing changes) brought up to claim that it's saying Cloud has feelings for Aerith different from the rest of AVALANCHE when it was used in its "for those who travelled with Aerith as comrades..." incarnation. But there's nothing like that in there either, because it's not talking about AVALANCHE since Aerith is the 'comrade' being talked about.

Ah, so AERITH is the one who loves Aerith. Geez, what a Narcissist.

But yeah, thanks for that, it is 'Even now, not dead/ not dying feelings exist'
The temporal marker is what really locks those feelings into the immediate time of the movie. He has them during the movie- but the movie is when stuff changes.

Oh geeze, sorry if I offended you. You KNOW that I completely trust you probably more than anyone, but whenever a translation comes out that people don't like, they run around all over the place until they find one that they like. I distinctly remember a certain someone posting that "Feelings of desire" quote to at least 3 different places until they found one where someone left out that part and THAT'S the one they stuck with. I also remember the other translations they got DID say it was a declaration of romantic love. That's why I check these things. I want to beat them at their own game. You've proven yourself time and time again to be completely unbias[/quoted]

unbiased. You need to conjugate it properly.

(like when you explained koibito did NOT always mean lover BEFORE CoLW came out, and when you explained that the "Dimly fell in love with" didn't mean "secretly fell in love with) in this situation so,

Not that 'dimly fell in love with' makes all that much sense outside of perception, but never mind that for now.

for the life of me, I can't figure out why someone would trust you up until you said something they didn't like... I mean I know WHY but it's just a sad sad reason.

And it's still happening.
JayM, if you are still reading this, please, as the only person both knowledgeable about the language and actually neutral in all this among our recent immigrants, please do post in this thread and weigh in with your thoughts.

How vain are you,

We would have made her a standard unit measure of vanity, but we realized that would just make things worse.

thinking that post was about you? I was just reminded of all the past instances when this 'get someone from the outside' has been used.

Didn't one of them even reference you, and thus had to be discounted as 'tainted?' I seem to recall that happening.

I meant to add something stating that it wasn't something personal, as jumping into a big rant while quoting someone does look personal, but it got lost within my rage-filled heart

But we have to know, Hitobito, is it a hate that always was?

Which is why I don't understand the whole 'there might be feelings in the low version' argument. Using only the game to back it up, you've got one scene that doesn't mention feelings and one that directly mentions feelings (and how you don't need words to communicate them). If they then talk about sharing feelings in related books, I don't see a massive leap to assume they're talking about the scene that actually uses the word 'feelings'.

I understand why they make the argument, but I agree entirely there's absolutely nothing saying 'feelings' with relation to the low version, and something saying it lacked them. (And then that got tiwsted)

What kind of black magic you must have to use to get that from 互いを求める気持ちを確かめ合う is beyond me But just to drive the point home:

互い = each other
を = object marker
求める = to desire, want
互いを求める = to want/desire each other
気持ち = feelings (different word this time but same meaning, being modified by what just came before it)
互いを求める気持ち = feelings of wanting/desiring each other
確かめ合う = to confirm together/with each other

Together they are confirming their feelings of wanting one another. That's the high affection version of the Highwind scene that they chose to highlight in the UO (page 27).

Also, the version agnostic statements in the U20 follow the same formatting.
Feelings of wanting each other happened. QED.

 

[JayM]

*peeeeers around in scary thread*

From a purely intellectual standpoint, I'm kind of fangirling with glee, here. THIS is what I wish there was more of in the LTD. Less actual LTD and more Japanese geekery.

for the life of me, I can't figure out why someone would trust you up until you said something they didn't like... I mean I know WHY but it's just a sad sad reason.

And it's still happening.
JayM, if you are still reading this, please, as the only person both knowledgeable about the language and actually neutral in all this among our recent immigrants, please do post in this thread and weigh in with your thoughts.

I'm aaaaalways reading this. And actually we were having an argument about this very thing just yesterday on the CxA forum.

From the responses I got--I had a mini-rant at my friends over there--a lot of them feel like they are being "pushed" to favor the TLS translations over any other fan translations they get, and over the official translations as well.

I don't really feel this way, but I'm also coming at the argument from the perspective of someone who's familiar with Japanese, so I can look at a translation, and the original, and judge for myself which is best. From the perspective of someone who doesn't know the language at all, though, when they're told one thing by you guys and another thing by someone else, and the two things seem to disagree*, it makes them feel like you guys are pushing "your" translation above any other possible meaning.

Also, it bothers people when you disagree with the official translations. Which I am personally not bothered by, and I pointed out that official translations can be just as wrong as the fan translations (particularly with FFVII). But despite examples there are still people who believe SE translated things the way they did for a reason.

I'll be honest, I'm in complete disagreement with them on this, but again--I'm coming at it from the position of someone with enough information to make the judgment call. They aren't. I would say the best way to make them trust you would be to break things down and explain them, like I have tried to do, but I think they've already sorta made up their mind about the folks over here. I have noticed (and I don't mind saying it because anyone who's reading this thread and CxA has already seen this) that when I say, over there, the same things you guys say over here, they'll occasionally listen to me.

Which is what makes me feel, at the end, that a lot of it is just bitterness and bad feelings. This debate's gone on a long time and most of the folks on the Clerith board HAVE had their heads verbally ripped off by CloTi shippers, either on this forum or somewhere else. So there's that. And it's a different environment over there--not really meaner or nicer, I don't think, but different things are seen as "acceptable." There's a level of swearing and snark over here that doesn't really exist over there, and I think in some cases it makes them view you guys as arrogant people who would lie over something like translation. Again, different environment: I don't believe you guys have ever lied about translation and I don't think you would, but TLS and the CxA board have different dialects, different lexicons, and it causes clashes even when there's no bad feelings involved.

...Also keep in mind a lot of them haven't (to my knowledge) interacted with you guys directly, so rather than saying "Well hito is very trustworthy and intellectually honest, he wouldn't make that up!" they kinda go "This translation's from That CloTi Board, they're all [insert stereotype here]."

Annnnnnd those are my long-ass thoughts on it. I'm running on, like, wisps of steam at the moment, so if any of that is unclear or unintentionally offensive please ask for clarification. I'd hate to piss too many people off with my first post.

*I say "seem" because most of the examples I've seen of this don't actually disagree; as was already pointed out, there's this habit of asking outside forums to weigh in, devoid of context, which...doesn't actually help because context is super-important. And there's many cases where the phrasing of one or both translating parties makes it SEEM like they're disagreeing when they actually aren't.

 

[Octo]

lol 'Cloti board' ....I really hate the terms 'cloti' and clerith' they both sound like some sort of disease!

I'm not a 'cloti' and I don't think Ryu, Tres, Vendel, GLD or any of the others go fishing for Cloud and Tifa fanart on a regular basis (you never know though ) Most of us here have no emotional investment in one pairing or the other*, we've just looked at the evidence and reached the most probable conclusion.

Nobody is trying to convince people not to ship Cloud and Aerith, we're just talking about what is canon, or at least what makes the most sense in the narrative. Maybe there are twatty people out there on the net who will try and force people to ship 'canon-only' pairings, and maybe this is where people think TLS is some sort of nest of mean clotis, I've never seen anyone here pounced upon for just for liking Cloud and Aerith, TLS wouldn't even have a CxA club if that were the case.

Oh and welcome JayM, this thread isn't really scary - I wouldn't be here otherwise. Don't forget the rest of the forum too

*let me know if I am wrong guys!

 

[Ryushikaze]

*peeeeers around in scary thread*

From a purely intellectual standpoint, I'm kind of fangirling with glee, here. THIS is what I wish there was more of in the LTD. Less actual LTD and more Japanese geekery.

Well, if you insist, I suppose we'll just have to break out the collected works of Kurosawa and marathon them all.

I'm aaaaalways reading this. And actually we were having an argument about this very thing just yesterday on the CxA forum.

I'm aware. A sexy birdy tells me things.

From the responses I got--I had a mini-rant at my friends over there--a lot of them feel like they are being "pushed" to favor the TLS translations over any other fan translations they get, and over the official translations as well.

Well, we do tend to argue the official translations, but the official translations are shit at times.

I don't really feel this way, but I'm also coming at the argument from the perspective of someone who's familiar with Japanese, so I can look at a translation, and the original, and judge for myself which is best. From the perspective of someone who doesn't know the language at all, though, when they're told one thing by you guys and another thing by someone else, and the two things seem to disagree*, it makes them feel like you guys are pushing "your" translation above any other possible meaning.

The thing is, I can understand that.
But I also know, from the dark depths of history, that it's not that we're forcing our translation on them. It's that the translations aren't what they want to hear, at least not for the older members. Since it's already been brought up, Hitobito- Rygdea- used to be on very good terms with the CxA crew of waybackwhen, including Anastar and Shroudy, until he translated things that sounded pro-C/T.

Also, it bothers people when you disagree with the official translations. Which I am personally not bothered by, and I pointed out that official translations can be just as wrong as the fan translations (particularly with FFVII). But despite examples there are still people who believe SE translated things the way they did for a reason.

"This guy are sick."
"Off Course"
"So that's how you fooled them" "So that's how you'll fool them" etc. etc.
But even more recently, with the RF translation squabble, we're not even saying the translations are wrong. Like the Koibito quote. We're not saying Tifa's not a sweetheart. We're just saying she isn't being called the 'nice person' kind of sweetheart because that's not a possible translation from the prime source.

I'll be honest, I'm in complete disagreement with them on this, but again--I'm coming at it from the position of someone with enough information to make the judgment call. They aren't. I would say the best way to make them trust you would be to break things down and explain them, like I have tried to do, but I think they've already sorta made up their mind about the folks over here. I have noticed (and I don't mind saying it because anyone who's reading this thread and CxA has already seen this) that when I say, over there, the same things you guys say over here, they'll occasionally listen to me.

We have tried to break it down. Hell, I got so sick of breaking it down I made an infographic to do it, around two years back.

Spoiler: The graphic, untouched from back then

And keep in mind, that was still when I was still seeing arguments that Koibito meant nice person, one who loves, or didn't have meaning when written in Kanji.
But yes, I think a lot of it is having made up their minds about us.
We are, I am told, considered a Cloti forum, despite the scope of our site being far large and having a number of posters who despise the LTD in all its drama (It detracts from their own, different flavors of drama).

Which is what makes me feel, at the end, that a lot of it is just bitterness and bad feelings. This debate's gone on a long time and most of the folks on the Clerith board HAVE had their heads verbally ripped off by CloTi shippers, either on this forum or somewhere else. So there's that. And it's a different environment over there--not really meaner or nicer, I don't think, but different things are seen as "acceptable." There's a level of swearing and snark over here that doesn't really exist over there, and I think in some cases it makes them view you guys as arrogant people who would lie over something like translation. Again, different environment: I don't believe you guys have ever lied about translation and I don't think you would, but TLS and the CxA board have different dialects, different lexicons, and it causes clashes even when there's no bad feelings involved.

We definitively have a unique, quasi-flamewarrior culture here, but that pervades the whole board, even the folks who hate the LTD.

...Also keep in mind a lot of them haven't (to my knowledge) interacted with you guys directly, so rather than saying "Well hito is very trustworthy and intellectually honest, he wouldn't make that up!" they kinda go "This translation's from That CloTi Board, they're all [insert stereotype here]."

Lamentable, though. Especially since the action best suited to solving that- coming here and meeting us outside the LTD- is something they probably won't do due to those same preconceived notions.
Or 'reading us' outside the LTD, since I know the thread, at least, is watched by a lot of the members there.

Annnnnnd those are my long-ass thoughts on it. I'm running on, like, wisps of steam at the moment, so if any of that is unclear or unintentionally offensive please ask for clarification. I'd hate to piss too many people off with my first post.

It'll take at least three or four posts to REALLY piss us off, don't worry. And then comes the boss battle.

*I say "seem" because most of the examples I've seen of this don't actually disagree; as was already pointed out, there's this habit of asking outside forums to weigh in, devoid of context, which...doesn't actually help because context is super-important. And there's many cases where the phrasing of one or both translating parties makes it SEEM like they're disagreeing when they actually aren't.

There's also, as I mentioned above, a bit of a habit of assuming how one sees an ambiguously translated text as the intended meaning, and attempts to correct the ambiguity seen as calling the ambiguous translation wrong.

lol 'Cloti board' ....I really hate the terms 'cloti' and clerith' they both sound like some sort of disease!

I'm not a 'cloti' and I don't think Ryu, Tres, Vendel, GLD or any of the others go fishing for Cloud and Tifa fanart on a regular basis (you never know though ) Most of us here have no emotional investment in one pairing or the other*, we've just looked at the evidence and reached the most probable conclusion.

Yar. I'm less a Cloti than I was an 'anti-R=U ist'
The evidence points where it does. I just connect the does, assemble the web, and see the forest for the trees.

Nobody is trying to convince people not to ship Cloud and Aerith, we're just talking about what is canon, or at least what makes the most sense in the narrative. Maybe there are twatty people out there on the net who will try and force people to ship 'canon-only' pairings, and maybe this is where people think TLS is some sort of nest of mean clotis, I've never seen anyone here pounced upon for just for liking Cloud and Aerith, TLS wouldn't even have a CxA club if that were the case.

Yeah. We're not anti-shipping. We're just pro-actual narrative. Like Tres and the giving up the puppetmaster theory, or recognizing that Vincent was on the Sister Ray, even if we wished we could scrap and redo Dirge as best we could.

Oh and welcome JayM, this thread isn't really scary - I wouldn't be here otherwise. Don't forget the rest of the forum too

*let me know if I am wrong guys!

We are absolutely scary. And might eat you.
And no, I don't self ID as a cloti, nor do I particularly ship them. I enjoy the couple, but I enjoy Cecil/Rosa too, and I don't ship them, and I'm loads more emotionally invested in the story of FFIV than VII (there's just less to discuss, is all).

Oh, and indeed Welcome, JayM. Enjoy the rest of the forum.

 

[Celes Chere]

a lot of them feel like they are being "pushed" to favor the TLS translations over any other fan translations they get, and over the official translations as well.

Oh, come on. What kind of bullshit is that, pardon my language. No one is forcing ANYONE to believe TLS translations are the word of God. It's other people that choose to take TLS's word for it. I'm sure Hito and the others do an excellent job with it, and other translators do as well. However no one is saying "My word is the only word that can be believed ever!" If there is an instance of this, show me. Because I have never seen anyone forcing their translations on anybody. People view the site and choose to believe what they want. No one makes them.

This debate's gone on a long time and most of the folks on the Clerith board HAVE had their heads verbally ripped off by CloTi shippers, either on this forum or somewhere else.

This is the same case for almost anyone involved in any fandom. No one should be playing the victim here, since we've all experienced it, you know? And well, that's the reason I stay away from that Forum. Like you said, different things are accceptable and I don't like it so I don't post there. If people are really disliking TLS, why sign up and let the LTD negatively effect their view even moreso? If people actually took the chance to discuss things nicely instead of jumping in immediately with this 'bad blood' feeling you describe, things would go a lot smoother!

TLS wouldn't even have a CxA club if that were the case.

It's just a ruse to lure Cleriths in so we can TEAR THEM APART. Joking aside, I love Clerith fanart, videos, etc. I'm glad the Clerith club exists so I can see all of that. And I don't mind hearing Clerith views. In the LTD, I always argued what I believed to be canon, and that's Cloti and recently since Crisis Core, I've argued for Zerith too. If I saw some real solid evidence for Cloud x Aerith, I'd argue for that despite my pairing preference... not to say that I'm completely unbiased because I am at times I'm sure.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Oh, come on. What kind of bullshit is that, pardon my language. No one is forcing ANYONE to believe TLS translations are the word of God. It's other people that choose to take TLS's word for it. I'm sure Hito and the others do an excellent job with it, and other translators do as well. However no one is saying "My word is the only word that can be believed ever!" If there is an instance of this, show me. Because I have never seen anyone forcing their translations on anybody. People view the site and choose to believe what they want. No one makes them.

I think this is referring to the 'Why didn't you use lover or boyfriend in COLW' debacle that happened recently, but the reasoning for using the translation that was used was that beloved was the only valid word choice that was not presumptuous and/or incorrect (Being that C/A, regardless of anything else, never did have a relationship, since Cloud was officially oblivious). Well, that and it was determined that 'sweetheart' would have been seen as trolling, now that I think about it.

If it's referring to something else, I'm not sure what it is.

It's just a ruse to lure Cleriths in so we can TEAR THEM APART. Joking aside, I love Clerith fanart, videos, etc. I'm glad the Clerith club exists so I can see all of that. And I don't mind hearing Clerith views. In the LTD, I always argued what I believed to be canon, and that's Cloti and recently since Crisis Core, I've argued for Zerith too. If I saw some real solid evidence for Cloud x Aerith, I'd argue for that despite my pairing preference... not to say that I'm completely unbiased because I am at times I'm sure.

Didn't you lot change the Clerith club 'founder statement' (or whatever those first post things are for) at the request of Anastar and Co?

 

[Strangelove]

From the responses I got--I had a mini-rant at my friends over there--a lot of them feel like they are being "pushed" to favor the TLS translations over any other fan translations they get, and over the official translations as well.

I think the trouble here is that there rarely seems to be any discussion about it. Obviously the ones who can take part in that discussion is limited to those who have at least some knowledge of Japanese, in the same way it'd take someone who knows about astrophysics to properly participate in an astrophysics debate.

So for most people, it does involve taking people's word on it. It never seems to be "I think this specific part isn't quite right," but rather "that translation came from TLS so there's no point taking it seriously." There's not discourse to try to improve or correct it, just the assumption that it must be wrong or that any suggestion that there's a mistake is an attack.

It annoys me that disagreement is met with suspicion, whereas a translation so awkward that it needs several pages to decode is welcomed with open arms. The only difference is the person who's saying it. (There are times when translations can read perfectly fine but still be wrong, and awkward ones which are technically correct, but moving on.)

When giving your say on a matter, you are in a way asking for people to accept it over another but I think that's the nature of things. I'm open to corrections, but I don't really get them. I don't take that as meaning I'm perfect, because I know I've made mistakes. Which is where discussing things would help. I'm more inclinded towards the idea of people working together to make one superior product, rather than having different people working on their own different versions and people having to compare (and possibly just picking the one they like better, like what Que mentioned earlier). But it just never seems to happen.

"Well hito is very trustworthy and intellectually honest, he wouldn't make that up!"

My main bitterness about this is that there was a time when that was true over there. I could have said anything and it would be taken on face value. People are skeptical now because I'm now a 'Cloti' rather than neutral, as if that some how makes everything in the past null and void. I mentioned speaking with Japanese people and it was met with rolling eye emotes (as if someone who studies Japanese is strange), whereas a dozen other people can mention their Japanese teachers or friends without anyone batting an eye. If someone there came up with a new translation/correction of a 'Cloti' quote I'm sure it wouldn't be met with the same kind of skepticism you get when trying to correct they've brought up.

To be brutally honest, some of the translations that have come from the C/A forum are abysmal. That one about Cait Sith that talks about 'tickets' and 'Dotty' springs to mind instantly. I don't look at the forum anymore, but it never seemed that people raise an eyebrow at these things from what I saw when I was there.


I've had to keep getting up while writing this and my thoughts have been muddled, so I'm stopping here because I'm not sure if I'm making sense anymore and don't really want to keep ranting about the past.

 

[aerbear]

Not so. They are in the game. And the rest of the compilation. The Highwind scene is in the game. We're told romantic feelings are confirmed under the highwind. Period. End of.
It's IN the game.

I get the Low Affection version almost every time. That's in the game too.

We're TOLD what happened that evening. No one has to remember it for it to have happened, Aerbear.

I knowww.
But to establish a canon version, especially something as important as that, it shouldn't have been forgotten; even if no one remembers, it could have been added in somewhere. It wasn't. So I don't think the High Affection version is canon.

Based on what?

Are we expected to read the Ultimanias? Or are we expected to play the games and read the books, the things it's talking about and summing up?

Not to be mean or anything! But it seems that guides like that are used as references to the real story/just there to satisfy our inner nerd, not something that's required of us, that without it we won't know "the truth." I expect the games/movies/books to do that, not the side shits.
And the real stuff says there are two versions of the Highwind scene and it doesn't matter which one you get.

It isn't like Cloud/Tifa couldn't happen without that version being canon, anyway. If you ask me, the Low Affection one makes the most sense by their characters. (And no, I'm not just saying this as a cray cray C/A shipper.) It would take them more time to really open up, just look at Case of Tifa. No communication there, because they're working on it.

The bolded part: Isn't all of this your interpretation? Because of what you see in context?

*sniffles* That, my friend, was beautiful. I think you've shown us the light.

I'm gonna disappear again actually. I stayed away because of the "canon" issues here, so... off to the batmobile I will go.

We're going to miss your awesomeness here. Oh well, at least the Batmobile will have it. :/

Somebody's got to stick around and make sure nobody goes Silence of the Lambs on Anastar, may as well be me.

*peeeeers around in scary thread*

Yay, you're posting! Our Gray Jedi buddy.

You know when you turn off the light, it's suddenly very dark, and you jump ten feet to get to your bed? That split second feeling when the light is off till you get to the bed, that's what posting in an LTD feels like.

I'm aware. A sexy birdy tells me things.

Tell your sexy bird to get a new hobby.

But even more recently, with the RF translation squabble, we're not even saying the translations are wrong. Like the Koibito quote. We're not saying Tifa's not a sweetheart. We're just saying she isn't being called the 'nice person' kind of sweetheart because that's not a possible translation from the prime source.

Personally, I understand where you guys are coming from with this. But we get told a lot of different translations. "It wasn't saying she's in a relationship without the name/it's written in kanjii (?) so it means this", a number of other things. It's just easier for us to trust people we know and people who aren't affiliated with any of this, and I hope that nobody here gets offended by that.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I get the Low Affection version almost every time. That's in the game too.

It is. Don't deny it.
Doesn't matter.
For a similar reason that all the versions of the Sister Ray scene without Vincent in them don't matter. We're told what happens that night. Romantic feelings are mutually shared. The version that has no feelings does not happen.

I knowww.
But to establish a canon version, especially something as important as that, it shouldn't have been forgotten; even if no one remembers, it could have been added in somewhere. It wasn't. So I don't think the High Affection version is canon.

Where would you add it in if not a story summary or including it as the most impressive scene? Or a listing of notable romantic confessions?
Does Tifa literally have to go 'Hey Cloud, remember when we had sex underneath the highwind?'
Must it be kludged in unceremoniously to have happened?
I supposed 90% of the stuff in FFVII didn't happen then, since it's never explicitly recalled later on, even though we're told what happened.

Are we expected to read the Ultimanias? Or are we expected to play the games and read the books, the things it's talking about and summing up?

False dichotomy.
It's not either or.
What the Ultimanias do is INFORM the original games, and yes, that includes saying 'this shit happened' just like the Holocron and other sources for Lucasfilm include saying which shit happened and which shit did not.

Not to be mean or anything! But it seems that guides like that are used as references to the real story/just there to satisfy our inner nerd, not something that's required of us, that without it we won't know "the truth." I expect the games/movies/books to do that, not the side shits.
And the real stuff says there are two versions of the Highwind scene and it doesn't matter which one you get.

So, now you're literally just ignoring information.
And trying to hold a Heisenberg continuity for this one moment.

It isn't like Cloud/Tifa couldn't happen without that version being canon, anyway. If you ask me, the Low Affection one makes the most sense by their characters. (And no, I'm not just saying this as a cray cray C/A shipper.) It would take them more time to really open up, just look at Case of Tifa. No communication there, because they're working on it.

There is communication, but it's awkward. And don't get us wrong, I don't think anyone trumpets the HAHW as magically solving all their issues, it was a singular breakthrough of them managing to communicate. Not a panacea for all future issues, especially communication issues about a completely different subject.

*sniffles* That, my friend, was beautiful. I think you've shown us the light.

To answer that question- no, Canonicity is pretty much universally understood not to be up to interpretation. Ironically, the phrase you used 'shown us the light' is used referring to realizing a truth that is not up to interpretation.
Doubly ironically, it is almost always used to refer to something that is wholly up to interpretation.
Ah, Linguistic fuckery.

We're going to miss your awesomeness here. Oh well, at least the Batmobile will have it. :/

She's going to piss Batman off, though, and that's far worse.

Somebody's got to stick around and make sure nobody goes Silence of the Lambs on Anastar, may as well be me.

Skin her alive or get into her head and convince her of things?

Yay, you're posting! Our Gray Jedi buddy.

You know when you turn off the light, it's suddenly very dark, and you jump ten feet to get to your bed? That split second feeling when the light is off till you get to the bed, that's what posting in an LTD feels like.

So, like you're making a big deal of nothing?
How darkly appropriate.

Tell your sexy bird to get a new hobby.

Won't. And it wouldn't have any effect.

Personally, I understand where you guys are coming from with this. But we get told a lot of different translations. "It wasn't saying she's in a relationship without the name/it's written in kanjii (?) so it means this", a number of other things. It's just easier for us to trust people we know and people who aren't affiliated with any of this, and I hope that nobody here gets offended by that.

Getting back to things, Hitobito used to be 'that persion you know and trust.'
Then he honestly translated things, and he was insulted and no longer trustworthy because of it.
I don't- in principle- have any problem with verifying a translation. I encouraged it in my article. The problem is, that's not what's at issue here.

With the Koibito in RF translation, the argument isn't over the translation, it's over the understanding of the translation itself. The prime source is provided to aid in the understanding of it.

With the Koibito in COLW translation, again, the argument isn't over the word itself, but the greater context of the word, with us saying that for safety and honesty's sake, it must be translated in a particular way, with Anastar wanting it to be translated in a way that favors her, but which is quite literally incorrect given the surrounding information.

Y'know what, though, tell us which translations, specifically, you have issue with, and we can try and walk you through them.

 

[Celes Chere]

Didn't you lot change the Clerith club 'founder statement' (or whatever those first post things are for) at the request of Anastar and Co?

Yes. And I believe that some still expressed that they were not satisfied. =/ I'm not sure what to do. A Clerith fan MADE the club, and posted her point of view, so we're not going to delete that part of it. Can't satisfy everyone I guess.

 

[Madame Mayor]

I think this is referring to the 'Why didn't you use lover or boyfriend in COLW' debacle that happened recently, but the reasoning for using the translation that was used was that beloved was the only valid word choice that was not presumptuous and/or incorrect (Being that C/A, regardless of anything else, never did have a relationship, since Cloud was officially oblivious). Well, that and it was determined that 'sweetheart' would have been seen as trolling, now that I think about it.

Which is funny because no matter how you ship Clerith, they weren't boyfriend/girlfriend, lovers, etc. in the game, and it doesn't make sense to say they are now even if you believe they love each other post-her death. Being mutually interested in each other doesn't mean you actively have a relationship like that. Aerith hasn't even contacted Cloud yet (COLW) since her death so you can't even use some weird excuse like they started dating post-her death now that she speaks to him.

Plus, 'Beloved' doesn't mean Cloud doesn't love her back. My boyfriend can be my beloved, but my beloved doesn't have to be my boyfriend.

 

[Strangelove]

Stuff I forgot:

- No one has ever said that people should disregard all of the official localization just because there are mistakes, I'm pretty sure. The reason no one says anything when the official localization get it right is because there's no point. People have this 'all or nothing' attitude sometimes that if you disagree with one point, you must have some beef with the entire thing.

- If people don't think the translations that are on this site are correct, they are more than welcome to explain why since that would be better for everyone if they were as accurate as can be.

- With the exception of a few titles (FFVII, AC, parts of OTWTAS) I only experienced the whole Compliation and related media in Japanese, so if I'm going to talk about stuff, it's going to be what I know from playing/reading/watching everything in Japanese. And that is the thing that really interests me about this.

- The only joy I get from shipping is looking at pictures, which is more down to liking the art that what's being shown. Apart from that, I get no pleasure from any pairing. If Square came out tomorrow with something that says "oh yeah Cloud and Aerith are totally going at it like spirit!rabbits" my day would go on as normal. I'd wonder what they were doing with all this stuff that looked like it pointed the other way, but emotionally it wouldn't move me. Because emotionally, I don't give a fuck how this turns out.

- 'Beloved' just sounds so much nicer. I mean, come on. "Cloud was the woman's boyfriend" just. There's no grace to that. It's like she's sitting on her undead Lifestream bed scribbing hearts onto a notebook with gel pens. I thank Mako that it settled on 'beloved'.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Which is funny because no matter how you ship Clerith, they weren't boyfriend/girlfriend, lovers, etc. in the game, and it doesn't make sense to say they are now even if you believe they love each other post-her death. Being mutually interested in each other doesn't mean you actively have a relationship like that. Aerith hasn't even contacted Cloud yet (COLW) since her death so you can't even use some weird excuse like they started dating post-her death now that she speaks to him.

Plus, 'Beloved' doesn't mean Cloud doesn't love her back. My boyfriend can be my beloved, but my beloved doesn't have to be my boyfriend.

Like I said, the translation we used isn't presumptuous. All it says is exactly what we can be sure of- that Woman loves Cloud. Cloud could love her back, but the text doesn't say she does.

On the subject of 'My beloved can be my BF but doesn't have to be,' there's an episode of Uresei Yatsura, I've mentioned it before, where two men argue about which of them can claim a woman as their beloved/ Koibito.
Both men were technically correct, and technically wrong. Both loved the woman, but both were using it in the broader sense of in a relationship.

Basically, do you want the woman to speak conservatively, or be wrong? Because Cloud has never been anyone's boyfriend before FF7, so unless Cloud meets and dates a woman who then dies after FF7, he can't be ANY dead woman's boyfriend.
Or dead man's either. I'm looking at you, Case of Lifestream Black.

Addendum: for clarification, I just mean 'we' as in TLS. Hitobito did all the hard work.

 

[Strangelove]

Hitobito did all the hard work.

Mako deserves some credit for helping to clean up my original drafts, and giving some suggestions that I think made it sound a lot better than if it had been more literal (like 'beloved' and 'stigma', or pointing out where a word was being repeated too much in English where it wouldn't matter so much in Japanese).

The idea behind Lifestream White/Black's translations (and others I do, but in particular that because it's prose fiction) was to not make it seem like a translation. The aim was to make it sound as nice as possible, as much like a piece that had been in English all along while still retaining the spirit and meaning of the original. That was the intention behind my original Case of Denzel translation that I did with a member from ACF.net, but that had more liberties/original sections from her as someone who didn't know Japanese. With LSW/B I went for sticking to the original's text more closely, but still trying to not have it read like a translation. Mako was that extra pair of eyes to look over it without being overly influenced by the original text, but kept his additions to word choices rather than inventing passages. (I thought original material was an interesting idea, but the years have taught me to stick more closely to the original to avoid fallout.)

I was rather proud of how it turned out, personally.

 

[Danseru-kun]

It isn't like Cloud/Tifa couldn't happen without that version being canon, anyway. If you ask me, the Low Affection one makes the most sense by their characters. (And no, I'm not just saying this as a cray cray C/A shipper.) It would take them more time to really open up, just look at Case of Tifa. No communication there, because they're working on it.

Communication is much more complex than the magical connection where two people understand each other completely:

Communication:


Communicator -> communicated -> Medium -> Recipient -> understanding -> reaction
Cloud/Tifa -> feelings/actions -> words/actions ->Tifa/Cloud -> understanding -> reaction
Cloud-> "I have you" -> words -> Tifa -> acknowledgement -> "You always have me."
Tifa -> "You always have me." -> words -> Cloud -> that's not what I meant -> "But this time its different
Tifa - Wants to help Cloud -> "Can I join you" -> Cloud -> I want to take this on alone -> "I want to drink alone" -> Tifa -> frustration -> "Then go drink in your room"

Isn't that enough proof for communication? I'm not making this up I finished a communication theory class and you can read about communication anywhere.
​

​

Communicated feelings can be both positive and negative emotions. The medium can be both verbal or non-verbal. Also, a person receiving such communicated feelings can either show or hide his reaction. A wrong understanding can cause a reaction [edit:not] necessarily desired by the communicator, and this is a problem or a barrier. Anybody who read the COT can identify these different elements and can clearly understand that communication happens.

Communication problems persist in every working relationship even with couples who are married for many years. Not just couples but parents and children as well. I get scolded by my parents without even realizing how my words offended them. That's no communication, that's a communication problem.

For me the absence of communication is physical separation with no medium for communication. After Aerith died, she never communicated with Cloud until AC.

 

[Dashell]

There's a level of swearing and snark over here that doesn't really exist over there, and I think in some cases it makes them view you guys as arrogant people who would lie over something like translation.

Lol, this is why some people see that I act "differently" here. Here I'm allowed to swear and be snarky all I want with no consequence. When I act nicer there, I'm just trying to uphold the rules there.

Also back on translations, I think it's important to take both official translations, the original text and fan translations into consideration and come to an agreement. If something really can't be agreed on, then use the official translation, but really people should try to talk about these things rather than try to argue about them all the time.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

And it's a different environment over there--not really meaner or nicer, I don't think, but different things are seen as "acceptable." There's a level of swearing and snark over here that doesn't really exist over there, and I think in some cases it makes them view you guys as arrogant people who would lie over something like translation. Again, different environment: I don't believe you guys have ever lied about translation and I don't think you would, but TLS and the CxA board have different dialects, different lexicons, and it causes clashes even when there's no bad feelings involved.

I completely agree with this assessment of the different atmospheres. That was an extremely insightful analysis of the different "cultures" at work here.

It's like you're TLS's own Alexis de Tocqueville.

Thanks for your insight -- and keep on posting around here! Welcome to TLS. =)

Communication:



Communicator -> communicated -> Medium -> Recipient -> understanding -> reaction

Don't forget the internal and external noise the message has to pass through, as well as the potential limitations of the medium itself.

So, you just took a communications theory class? Is that your major? I got my degree in Communications in Mass Media, with Journalism as a minor.​

Also back on translations, I think it's important to take both official translations, the original text and fan translations into consideration and come to an agreement. If something really can't be agreed on, then use the official translation ...

Not if it's demonstrably wrong.

There's that TLS arrogance at work, I guess.
​

 

[Dashell]

Not if it's demonstrably wrong.

TBH (And I don't know if this is the one you mean) but I always thought the Reunion Files koibito translation wasn't wrong, just worded poorly. It'd be like if I said, "I want ketchup on my fries, green beans and Dr Pepper." I don't want ketchup on all three, I'm saying I want all three but just ketchup on the one.

Actually I'm not really even sure how you'd word the translation properly without it sounded awkward.

 

[Danseru-kun]

*sniffles* That, my friend, was beautiful. I think you've shown us the light.

I think I need to explain further why my argument against the exchange of feeling of friendship in the context of the HW is not an interpretation but rather a conclusion based on evidence.

Whether you confirm feelings of friendship with one another is a different debate since that it's is about the generality of life. However, when you apply it the context of the HW scene you consider several things like their mental state that it's their last night, their relationship as friends, their medium which is non-verbal and their reaction when they found out their friends might have watched them. When you add the FTOIL page and numerous quotes referencing to the HA version, the theory that they exchanged romantic feelings becomes an objective conclusion.

If you are not convinced by the mountain of evidence then it's your personal choice not to believe. But if you're going to contest against the validity of that analysis you need to provide an evidence against that conclusion or prove that the other's analysis is faulty. When your theory is not supported by evidence yet you conclude that the scene is not necessarily romantic, then that is merely an interpretation.

As for interpretation, I personally think that they did not have sex, but rather, just kissed... a lot . That's my interpretation.

Again, I'm not saying that pro-canon people do not interpret things, but rather, we favor facts and objective analysis over interpretation.

Don't forget the internal and external noise the message has to pass through, as well as the potential limitations of the medium itself.

So, you just took a communications theory class? Is that your major? I got my degree in Communications in Mass Media, with Journalism as a minor.​

Nah, I just took one class 2 years ago back when I was a freshman, and all I learned were just the basics. I major in Economics and taking up Public Administration as a minor. However, we're required 45 units of general subjects and 14 free electives so I used them up to take subjects all sorts of subjects.

 

[Splintered]

It isn't like Cloud/Tifa couldn't happen without that version being canon, anyway. If you ask me, the Low Affection one makes the most sense by their characters. (And no, I'm not just saying this as a cray cray C/A shipper.) It would take them more time to really open up, just look at Case of Tifa. No communication there, because they're working on it.

Just to add that this argument would work if the highwind scene were placed in any other part in the game ex except for that time. Because this is after Cloud and Tifa pretty much bared their soul to each other in the lifestream. They told each other pretty much everything that made them... them. Cloud's feelings for Tifa and himself, Tifa's longing for Cloud after he left, why Cloud left, they even went through Tifa's most "precious" memories.

The Lifestream event didn't just help them communicate past feelings, it helped communicate to each other who they were at the core and showed the fundamentals of their identity and their dreams. When they find Tifa, she muses about how much people lock themselves up.

At this point, after such a dramatic confession of who they are, it only makes sense that at the end they would also confess to each other how they feel. Especially if when they do that is during what is probably their last night on the planet, it's the last chance to do anything. If they didn't do it now, they would never do it. All things considered, it's not just feelings they were talking about under the Highwind, it was their fears of nobody coming back, that they would be okay even if they were alone and scared, and wondering of the planet knew how hard they were working for them. This also is a pretty strong communication of what they feel and no one would contest them talking about those.

 

[Octo]

The Lifestream event didn't just help them communicate past feelings, it helped communicate to each other who they were at the core and showed the fundamentals of their identity and their dreams. When they find Tifa, she muses about how much people lock themselves up.

At this point, after such a dramatic confession of who they are, it only makes sense that at the end they would also confess to each other how they feel. Especially if when they do that is during what is probably their last night on the planet, it's the last chance to do anything. If they didn't do it now, they would never do it. All things considered, it's not just feelings they were talking about under the Highwind, it was their fears of nobody coming back, that they would be okay even if they were alone and scared, and wondering of the planet knew how hard they were working for them. This also is a pretty strong communication of what they feel and no one would contest them talking about those.

Yep, and the bolded part just shows how ridiculous it would be for them to:

'confirm friendship'

Tifa: Cloud.....there has been something I wanted to tell you.

Cloud: Yes, I've been meaning to tell you something too....

Tifa: Cloud, you're a really good friend.

Cloud: Yup, you too Tifa....Gee...I hope we don't die tomorrow. Nighty night.

or 'confirm mutual disinterest'

Tifa: Tonight may be our last night alive, so I think we should get one thing straight.

Cloud: Yes.

Tifa: I'm just not into you ,Cloud. I just thought I better tell you that. Cos' it would be awkward to spend the last 24 hours of my life thinking you thought I liked you.

Cloud: Yeah, don't worry about it, I'm not interested in you either. I'm glad you said it because it would have been weird.

Tifa: Phew...well thats a load off.......well then. Goodnight Cloud.

Cloud: Nighto.



Seriously, If you were watching a film and something like that happened, you'd walk out of the theatre and demand your money back.

 

[Ryushikaze]

TBH (And I don't know if this is the one you mean) but I always thought the Reunion Files koibito translation wasn't wrong, just worded poorly. It'd be like if I said, "I want ketchup on my fries, green beans and Dr Pepper." I don't want ketchup on all three, I'm saying I want all three but just ketchup on the one.

Actually I'm not really even sure how you'd word the translation properly without it sounded awkward.

"...She's like a mother, is someone's sweetheart/beloved, and is an ally in battle."

Also, your hypothetical should be "I want ketchup on my fries and green beans, and Dr. Pepper," assuming it was anywhere near coherently formulated to begin with.

Yep, and the bolded part just shows how ridiculous it would be for them to:

'confirm friendship'

Tifa: Cloud.....there has been something I wanted to tell you.

Cloud: Yes, I've been meaning to tell you something too....

Tifa: Cloud, you're a really good friend.

Cloud: Yup, you too Tifa....Gee...I hope we don't die tomorrow. Nighty night.

or 'confirm mutual disinterest'

Tifa: Tonight may be our last night alive, so I think we should get one thing straight.

Cloud: Yes.

Tifa: I'm just not into you ,Cloud. I just thought I better tell you that. Cos' it would be awkward to spend the last 24 hours of my life thinking you thought I liked you.

Cloud: Yeah, don't worry about it, I'm not interested in you either. I'm glad you said it because it would have been weird.

Tifa: Phew...well thats a load off.......well then. Goodnight Cloud.

Cloud: Nighto.



Seriously, If you were watching a film and something like that happened, you'd walk out of the theatre and demand your money back.

Unless it was a Zuckers Brothers film. They could pull off the requisite deadpan snark.

 

[Madame Mayor]

Ya, Low Affection version just seems incomplete, not like it's a different choice (as has been claimed as the Clerith choice). Compared to the date being a choice of sorts. You choose through your actions who will come on the date, even if it's not always clear, it's still your choices deciding which one happens.

LA version seems put in to say 'well, if you weren't nice to Tifa and removed her from the team anytime the game placed her there, then getting a good scene with her might seem forced'. But not getting Vincent or Yuffie is also something you can do. Not seeing Zack's flashbacks can happen. However one way you get more story, and another you don't. LA just seems like the 'lack of story progression' version. Your choice to keep Tifa close to you and not be mean to her gives you the 'good' scene.

 

[Dashell]

http://www.allexperts.com/user.cgi?m=6&catID=1797&qID=5001685


Michael DePaula is da man
Not that we didn't already know this but as I said before, I like having an outside source confirm.

So let's see


CONFIRMED ROMANCE:

(FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 15; Cloud's profile)
最終決戦を前に一時解散を宣言し、飛空艇に残ったティファと想いを通わせる。

"Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him."


(FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 27; Tifa's profile)
クラウドの提案で一時解散することになるが、飛空艇に残り、クラウドと想いを通わせる。

"When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud. "


(FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 27; Tifa's profile)
ティファのクラウドに対する好感度が高い場合、飛空艇に残ったふたりは、互いを求める気持ちを確かめ合う。

"If Tifa's affection regarding Cloud is high, when the two stay behind at the airship, they will confirm that their feelings of desire/wanting for one another match."


(Crisis Core Ultimania, pg. 33; Tifa's profile)
クラウドとは物語の終盤に想いを通わせ、「AC」「DC」の時代は一緒に暮らしている。

"She communicates her feelings together with Cloud in the final stages of the story, and in AC and DC they live together."


(FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition; story summary)
残ったクラウドとティファは、互いへの想いを打ち明け、確かめ合う。

"Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other and confirm them to match."

(FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 2: Scenario, pg. 232; main body of FFVII's story summary)
そして、ふたり、きりになったクラウドとティファは、残された最後の時間で互いの想いを打ち明け合う。

"And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match."


(FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 2: Scenario, pg. 394; "For the One I Love" page)
「VII」最終決戦前夜に
ティファのおかげで自分を取り戻したクラウドはセフィロスとの最後の戦いを前に言葉では伝えられない想いを彼女と確かめ合う

"VII - The night before the final battle
Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match."

DOESN'T SAY WHAT FEELINGS:

(FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 198; story summary)
大切な人の待つ場所へと仲間が散っていき、ふたりきりになたクラドとティファ。残された最後の時間でお互いの想いを打ち明け、そして……。

"When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and......."



I think that speaks for itself