I accounted for it being either before or after depending on how long Hojo experimented on him but it's really a matter of months if Vincent's body risked decaying that whole time like Lucrecia seemed to think. Makes you wonder if this means Vincent is technically undead. Even if she doesn't mean decay as in decomposition of a corpse, she was pressed for time to bring Vincent back in good condition. Since she was at least a few months into the pregnancy if not near term when Vincent was shot, it can't have been a year between then and Sephiroth's birth, placing them within the same year.
Only if you're assuming he was shot around the time of Sephiroth's birth, which we don't have reason to believe at this time.
See below.
Starling said:
The 23 approximation is obviously a result of the 50 approximation. If they give one, they have to give the other. If they were willing to approximate 23 years first, they would've just said it was 23 and made Vincent canonically 50 in the OG.
They did do the 23-year approximation first. That was given in the Ultimania Omega, which came out in September 2005.
The 50-year approximation for his age is from the 10th Anniversary Ultimania, which came out in September 2007.
It's more that they referenced the 23 year approximation before the 50 one as they have to exist together to have any consistency. You'd probably have to ask them directly to be absolutely sure which they decided on first since this is more about the equation than the result.
Starling said:
We know from the approximation they gave for Sephiroth's age and Vincent being physically 27 that his age range is 52-57.
We only "know" that if we're disregarding what's been clarified for us in black and white outside a flashback filled with vague time transitions. =P
If they didn't want us to take the impression that Vincent was shot at least two years after Seph was born, they didn't have to use the "approximately 23 years" timeframe in the same source that provided "25-30 years" for Sephiroth's birth.
Judging by the contradictions throughout the compilation, I think it's safe to say they don't have the forethought to avoid a discrepancy like that. It's obvious they have trouble keeping their dates straight considering the consistency issue here.
More importantly, those transitions aren't as vague as you seem to think. The OG flashbacks aim to show events more than tell you what's happening, hence being sparing in what it tells you, instead letting you to see for yourself. There's little dialog in the flashbacks and quite frankly, dialog isn't really needed to understand what's being conveyed. Storytelling is a combination of show
and tell, where too much show over tell is bad storytelling and conflicts in what's shown vs what's told can lead to inconsistencies the same way conflicting storytelling in different parts of the same continuity is why the compilation has so many consistency issues.
Again, "approximately 23 years" was given long before the "approximately 50 years" thing, so it's not like they had already painted themselves into a corner.
[EDIT: Going back and looking more closely looking at
pg. 46 and
pg. 47 of the Ultimania Omega, I found this --
----
【約23年前】ルクレシィア失踪。宝条を責め、逆上した宝条に肉体を改造されるが、それも罰だと受け止め、棺のなかで眠りにつく（※2）
※2
セフィロスを産んで数年ルクレシィアの身体はしだいに変調をきたし、外見も醜く変化していった。人に見せられぬ姿となった己に絶望したルクレシィアのせい――憤ったヴィンセントは宝条に食ってかかるが、逆に銃で撃たれ、意識を失っているあいだに宝条の「科学的好奇心」のエジキとなってしまう。
[Approximately 23 years ago] Lucrecia disappears. Vincent blames the maniacal Hojo, but ends up with his body modified by him; perceiving this as a punishment, Vincent goes to sleep in a coffin. (※2)
(※2)
For several years after giving birth to Sephiroth, Lucrecia's body gradually became abnormal, and her appearance became grotesque. Vincent fell into his own despair over her no longer wanting to be seen by anyone -- filled with resentment, he confronted Hojo and blew up at him, but was shot and fell prey to Hojo's "scientific curiosity" after losing consciousness.
----
That's very clear with regard to the timeframe.]
Lucrecia disappearing before Vincent was shot flies in the face of Lucrecia being shown to be around after he was shot. Also, if that were canon then Sephiroth would have to be born before Vincent was shot.
The OG and DoC give no indication that Lucrecia is in any way supposed to be seen as grotesque or deformed in any way. The most it gives is that Lucrecia didn't want to be around anyone which seems to be more about despairing over the whole thing with Sephiroth and not being able to die.
0:06-4:15 is the stuff involving Vincent.
First, Vincent is surprised to see Lucrecia in the cave and tries to go to her, only for Lucrecia to tell him to stay back, starting the flashbacks.
Lucrecia, Hojo, Gast and Vincent are seen walking into the mansion, around the start of the project.
Vincent and Lucrecia are seen walking through Nibelheim together to signify them getting closer during their time together.
Lucrecia and Vincent are seen holding hands while facing each other, then Lucrecia lets go and runs off, Vincent holding his hand out as if asking her to wait. This is meant to signify when their relationship ended.
Lucrecia and Hojo are seen embracing and Vincent turns away sadly. We then get the line "If she is happy... then I don't mind." Showing that while Vincent was unhappy that Lucrecia went with Hojo, he was willing to put his feelings aside if it meant Lucrecia would be happy.
Lucrecia is seen patting her stomach while sitting in a chair, a pretty standard way of indicating that a female character is pregnant, especially in this context.
Vincent is seen arguing with Hojo about being against conducting experiments on humans, Hojo objecting that he and Lucrecia are both scientists, know what they're doing and are ok with using their unborn child. Lucrecia is also shown to be present and on Hojo's side. We then get Vincent saying Sephiroth was born at some point after that.
Lucrecia is seen collapsing in the same room she was shown in the scene indicating her pregnancy, which is presumably where she stayed while in Nibelheim.
Vincent is seen confronting Hojo about the experiment. No words are given but the gestures indicate the argument becoming more heated until Hojo simply shoots Vincent.
Next scene shows Vincent on a table while Hojo experiments on him, then transitions to Vincent getting up and transforming, presumably into Galian Beast judging by the sounds and Galian being Vincent's first limit break.
What Vincent says following this indicates that he considers the way he is after the experiments to be a punishment for not being able to stop Gast, Hojo and Lucrecia from going through with the experiment.
After the flashbacks are over, Vincent seems to express that he's surprised to see her alive, implying he thought she died at some point.
Lucrecia tells him that she didn't want to be with anyone, she wanted to die but she couldn't because of the effect the Jenova cells had on her. Aside from the dreams she mentions having of Sephiroth, she also says that she never got to hold Sephiroth, as if Vincent didn't necessarily know by that point, which he wouldn't if she disappeared after he was shot.
From the way the flashback is set up, there's good reason to think it all unfolds chronologically. Given that Vincent mentions Sephiroth being born between the part where he objects to the start of the experiment and the one where Lucrecia collapses, it would seem that her collapse is meant to be taken as having taken place either right before or at some point after Sephiroth was born. That Vincent was shown arguing with Hojo following the scene where she collapsed indicates that we are meant to infer that the unintended complications causing Lucrecia to collapse in that manner prompted Vincent to renew objections more insistently than before, which is when Hojo shot him. This would place Sephiroth's birth not long before Vincent got shot and experimented on.
To further support this, Vincent knew Lucrecia had a son named Sephiroth, which means either the name was brought up before Sephiroth was born or Lucrecia gave birth shortly before Vincent was shot.
Here are video compilations of the relevant DoC flashbacks:
Part 1
Part 2
Now in DoC, the flashbacks aren't given together or in chronological order but it generally reiterates the OG flashbacks and adds stuff about Grimoire, Chaos and Lucrecia experimenting on Vincent after Hojo.
In the DoC flashbacks, Lucrecia was troubled at having to work with the son of her mentor, whose death she felt guilty about. However, she grew to like him over time as shown with stuff like that picnic under the tree. The falling out between Vincent and Lucrecia was attributed to Vincent finding out about her association with his father, in circumstances that seem to imply Hojo left the information out for Vincent to find by accident and Lucrecia thought he'd been snooping around and found it. She clearly harbours immense guilt on the matter and is trying to avoid reminders of it, so it's not something she'd bring up on a computer and just leave for others to stumble upon. That Hojo mentions her coming to her senses and choosing him suggests that he was trying to court her around that time as well, manipulating her emotions in his favour.
In the DoC version of the scene where Vincent objects to the experiments Hojo and Lucrecia plan on doing, Lucrecia is shown to still be emotionally distraught following the issues with Vincent, not really listening to his genuine concerns for her and he child's well-being and insistent that her choices don't concern him. Lucrecia's collapse is still placed after this scene as a consequence of the experiment and what Vincent would be objecting to when he asks Hojo why he "let this happen" in the DoC version of the confrontation between them.
The scene where Lucrecia collapses adds flashes of Jenova, Sephiroth burning Nibelheim, the white materia falling and Meteor as what may be the kind of dreams Lucrecia was apparently having about Sephiroth or simply some foreshadowing they felt like adding. In some of the scenes where Lucrecia is trying to bring Vincent back, we see that she still seems to be suffering from those problems at that point.
We also see that she apparently walked in on Hojo as he was manically laughing over Vincent's body, showing her just how deranged he really is. During the scenes where she's trying to revive Vincent, we can see that her failure to make progress on it, Hojo dropping in to mess with her and her inability to see let alone hold her son, she gets increasingly desperate and somewhat irrational until she simply can't take it anymore and leaves information to help Vincent, hoping he'll find it someday. Lack of mention of her apparent suicide attempt may be due to censorship or the tone they were going for. The part where she actually brings up Sephiroth seems to be close to when she left, though. DoC seems to want us to think Sephiroth was born after Vincent was shot, as it's somewhat odd that she'd only bring him up that close to when she left if he was around all that time. Of course, it may not be so odd if the experimentation lasted only a few months. Either way, Lucrecia was pregnant before Vincent got shot, meaning he was born either before or a few months after, regardless of how long Lucrecia stuck around before leaving.
Starling said:
Didn't we move on from when Genesis joined SOLDIER after you showed that CC actually mentioned that Genesis was inspired by Sephiroth to join SOLDIER?
That was the main thing we were initially discussing, so everything I was bringing up at first was about that. You were still responding to points related to that.
Mostly because it brought up stuff like disagreement over when Sephiroth was born and the continuity issues pertaining to Deepground, which is why this discussion is still going.
Starling said:
The whole thing that Deepground apparently shifted its entire focus on Genesis right after he was born is strange when you remember that Genesis and Angeal were also said to have been born normal children. Something else has to have been a factor there for it to make sense, whether Hollander got involved with Deepground or someone somehow thought it'd be a good idea to use his research despite the apparent lack of meaningful results. Even with those possibilities the justifications are a bit flimsy for my preferences.
Deepground's focus didn't shift to Genesis; the experiments involving him led to a shift in focus. That's saying two different things.
Even if they were still waiting for the results on Genesis, that doesn't preclude doing new experiments with a procedure pioneered from the project that produced him. That's just how science -- and most everything involving trial and error -- works: You find something new to work with and continue tinkering with it. Even if you get a failure, you don't scrap everything involved.
Also remember that they weren't putting all their eggs in one basket. Weiss, Nero and Rosso were all the results of different experiments -- and they were still said to be the only three survivors out of hundreds of experiments.
Considering the reports made them out to be obsessed about Genesis being what they strive to live up to and the whole Tsviets are the hellspawn of G thing makes it seem like Genesis himself was a key factor in what their experiments were trying to achieve. Sephiroth is basically the superior version of what Shinra was hoping to achieve with Genesis, so you'd think they would've used Sephiroth as the template for their experiments instead.
Why they keep going on about Genesis with little to no mention of Sephiroth shows a distinct preference for Genesis despite how little time passed between their conceptions. Basing their goals around the experiments involving Genesis is one thing but going so far as to gloss over the progress involving Sephiroth and to use Genesis specifically for the Tsviets is another.
It's an aspect of Deepground's history that simply doesn't match up.
Starling said:
There are still things like how the DoC guide and 10th anniversary ultimania entries on Deepground say "following the existence of a SOLDIER called G", which doesn't line up with either Deepground changing with Genesis' birth due to the wording or Genesis joining SOLDIER due to the dates given.
I will grant you that it doesn't explicitly refer to his birth the way other Japanese words could have, but that is why I used the literal meaning ("existence") of the word from
that page. That retains the nuance that his coming into being was the catalyst for Deepground's turn to the dark(er) side while leaving wiggle room that it could refer to his birth, his gestation in his mother's womb or even just the project that produced him -- something in that time period related to his existence.
Remember that we're ultimately discussing something from another culture and a different language. It's perfectly acceptable, albeit a tad flowery, to use "sonzai" (存在 -- "existence"; i.e. "the status of being") to refer to something or even a someone. It sounds clumsy when translated to English, but you see this often enough, particularly in stuff with a literary bent. Other Ultimanias have used similarly odd-sounding constructions, such as referring to Tidus and Yuna as an "important existence" (大切な存在
to one another.
If you'd like to learn more about the word, here's a couple of links worth looking over:
http://forum.wordreference.com/threads/sonzai-suru-jitsuzai-suru.2514262/
https://books.google.com/books?id=W...AEIKDAD#v=onepage&q=sonzai difference&f=false
That second link even comments that "there is no 'good fit' for translating words that mean 'being'" (i.e. "to exist"), and that you must pick words related to the context.
There's probably nuances to "sonzai" I still don't know about.
Interesting. I'll have to remember thiat aspect of the Japanese language and culture in the future.
I think this leaves room for Deepground to gain interest in Genesis or his project at a later point than his birth, even if they did so before he joined SOLDIER. After all, he was initially considered relatively normal so there wouldn't be much reason to be interested in the project until some noteworthy result drew their attention to it, in which case that Genesis exists would still be a way they'd likely reference it.
Starling said:
The arrows were a bit much. Even though you ended up referring to a different source, I felt it still needed to be said while it was being discussed.
Seeing as it didn't apply to the discussion actually taking place, I disagree.
It was relevant to the part concerning the unused materials. Even when you said that wasn't where your source was, you still pointed out the paragraph about the usage of the material, making any response to that relevant.
Starling said:
You mentioned your source but didn't provide a means of finding a translation since the site doesn't have one. I was stuck wondering which site translation you were referring to and then where I was supposed to find the source if it wasn't on site. That issue and the misunderstanding about which page you were going on about could've been avoided if you'd been clearer about that from the start. I don't think I would've found a translation if you hadn't taken the time to provide one yourself.
I didn't know that a) you wouldn't believe me; b) you were going to go looking for a translation; and c) you were going to think there was a translation on TLS. I was also posting from my phone, which isn't my first choice for dealing with Japanese anyway, though I often have.
And once again, I was explicit about my source down to the page number. A quick look over the index of translated pages from that book should have indicated within seconds that there was no translation for that page here.
If you were still confused after that, you could have simply asked me if I had a link to it somewhere rather than coming back much later to accuse me of being vague (I couldn't have been more clear) and blame me for wasting your time (you made your own decisions).
An Ultimania entry you haven't heard about before that apparently goes against something you understood to be canon isn't really something you take someone's word on, especially since the Ultimanias have been somewhat dubious in their clarifications on canon at times as game guides seem to do.
Like I said, there's not much I'd be able to comment on regarding your source of information without looking at it myself, so I tried to find it and only saw the unused material translations. The translations on TLS are pretty much the only ones that come up in searches. I would've been fine with either mention that the translation wasn't something I'd be likely to find or a quotation of the information so I'd have more than just the gist of what's apparently on it. I'm pretty sure doing so falls under the burden of proof as it relates to supporting your claim.
Misunderstandings like this generally waste time for both sides involved so it's in everyone's best interest to avoid them. Like I said before, a page number doesn't mean much if I can't find the page. I made it pretty clear I wasn't finding your source and that the only thing I could find corresponding even partly to what you were going on about was the early material stuff.
Starling said:
But wouldn't a page containing information about the setting be considered important?
Not when you have a dozen or more sources that mostly just repeat each other.
So was missing stuff like the page you referenced just because no one got around to it then? A note that a particular entry is the same as another save for some different or other would be ok too as an alternative to retranslating the same thing barring correcting an error in the previous one.
Starling said:
Redundancy is sometimes necessary for a complete and detailed comparison of available information. Having translated a few things from french to english, I'm aware it does take time to translate certain things in order to best represent the meaning and wording of the original text, though I would think it only takes reading the text and a moment of thought to decide whether or not something has information that hasn't been translated from the other ultimanias.
"A moment of thought" for someone fluent in the language, maybe; or for whom translating is their only hobby; or who has plenty of disposable time to set aside to stay in practice.
Listen, I realize you have no idea that you're doing it, but you're being extremely insulting. Please stop.
No one is paid for the translation work they do here, and it's often a thankless job too (especially when a translator gets blamed by other fans for the text saying things they don't like, as I have personally been on the receiving end of more than once). If a translator takes the time, be grateful. If they don't feel like it, they don't deserve a lecture.
I kinda figured by the time someone got familiar enough with a language to translate it they'd be fluent enough to only really struggle with the culture specific stuff or at least assess whether or not new information is present in the untranslated text as they read through it.
If you notice that an entry is different from the ones already translated then you just have to decide whether or not you think it's worth your time to translate, or at least bring up to others in case they'd like to try it. Doing that much doesn't actually require translating it.
I'm not expecting anyone capable of doing it to have the time and motivation to do it, I was mostly wondering why it couldn't at least be noted down somewhere that anyone with the time and motivation to do it could choose to do it if they wanted to. Making translations something that multiple people could work together on if they want would probably help make it less of a burden, since it wouldn't be entirely dependent on a single person deciding one day to do it all themselves.
Starling said:
As long as anyone willing to do it was given access to decent quality scans where everything is easy to read, I'm sure someone could've gotten around to it after a while.
I have scans of the entire Ultimania Omega. I own a copy, hito owns a copy, Shademp owns a copy. This is no secret. Yet we haven't exactly been inundated with requests to provide scans to willing and able translators who have nothing else to do with their time and lives.
We're also not going to host a file with all of the scans right there on the front page either, for what I hope are obvious reasons.
The first step would have to be made on someone's part. People without the Ultimania copies wouldn't necessarily expect to get their hands on them or know who to ask for scans. Making a thread with them available might just prompt the interest you aren't currently seeing. Even if it doesn't, once it's on the forums it could potentially be revived once someone interested in it comes across it. It wouldn't hurt to try it.
Starling said:
Is there a thread, by any chance? I think it'd be worth reviving interest in the ongoing translations.
It's pinned at the top of the donator section. One of the ideas for that section was to give members who helped with operating costs a look at works in progress, though that has rarely been done. It would, in my opinion, be up to hito to make the decision about the thread being moved somewhere visible to everyone.
The work being incomplete, I doubt he would be comfortable with it, and I certainly won't make that choice for him.
Fair enough.
Starling said:
That expression seems to be more about being cheap or charging money than it is about nitpicking and such.
"To impair, weaken, or defeat piecemeal (as through a series of small incursions or excessive attention to minor details)."
So, yes, nitpicking is nickel and diming.
I must've missed that definition. To be fair, what people consider nitpicking and unnecessary criticism is subjective. I often don't mind what's generally considered nitpicking so long as it's done politely or brings up something interesting, as it's good to examine every aspect of an argument if you're going to take it as fact. If an argument can hold up to scrutiny, then it should be able to handle it just fine.
Starling said:
Anyway, you can't really blame me for wanting more than just assertions that what you're saying is stated on an ultimania page.
No, I don't blame you for that at all. I really don't. I'd probably have asked for a scan myself since I'd hope to take the time to look at it for myself.
Like I said earlier in this post, my problem is with not asking for more details if you needed them and then blaming me for your own choices.
I'd say expressing difficulty in finding your source while clearly trying to and how that was stalling the discussion would make it evident enough providing a translation or a link to one would be necessary.
Starling said:
A general rule of debate is that you can't argue a point relying on a source of information your opponent doesn't have access to, as it prevents them from saying anything about it.
I've engaged in formal debate, so I know all about the "that isn't common knowledge" tactic. I also know formal debate is a pissing contest more interested in who can land the best zingers or spin the most appealing argument than it is with seeing to it that the truth wins out.
I do enjoy debate for its own sake, but my interest here is in determining the facts, not "winning."
Referencing less well known information is fine if you can provide your opponent with the means to look at it themselves. Otherwise, assuming your point is made simply because they have no way to comment on your source would be poor reasoning and improper debating. Ideally, an objective participant to the debate would be available to fact check both sides but that's not usually possible in informal settings so that leaves it up to the one who references the information to provide the source if requested.
From what I've seen, the issues regarding formal debate seem to stem from imposing time limits, pressuring people to provide many quick and easy points rather than take the time to carefully think about the topic and come up with more detailed arguments. Even in regular discussion someone who knows what they're doing could easily use time limitations or the illusion thereof to force the other person to rush their points without putting as much thought into them or the first person's arguments, guiding the discussion in their favour. Of course, the same can be done if someone is allowed to bring up too much at once, so careful moderation is still needed. Still, when formal debate was touched upon in one of my classes, emphasis was placed on quality of arguments as well as objectivity in determining which points were made best and we were given a reasonable amount time to prepare our arguments, as well as the opportunity to research our subjects rather than put on the spot. Both classes of my year got the same topics, which were fairly even, as shown when we ended up with opposing results based on the quality of the arguments put forth. After all, it's hard to make a point if it isn't argued well, meaning quality of arguments will always be an important aspect of debate whether formal or informal. I'd say it was a very good learning experience.
Starling said:
Another general rule of debate is that you can't claim something isn't present based on a passage not mentioning it when it's mentioned everywhere else.
You're referring to the "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" thing. I know. Like I said, you're not the only one familiar with debate or logic fallacies.
But I've not done what you're speaking of, so, once more, please stop being insulting. Again, I know you probably don't know you're doing it, but you are.
Arguing that SOLDIER originally didn't include Jenova cells based on Ultimania quotes not bringing it up assumes that Jenova cells weren't used because they weren't mentioned, which I believe qualifies. At best it means both are possible until sufficient evidence is given to prove or disprove one over the other.
Bringing up fallacies when they're noticed is in no way meant to be insulting, as there are so many it's probably impossible to avoid all of them unless you spend hours proofreading everything while checking off a list of every fallacy you've made sure isn't present. Once the fallacy has been brought to attention, it's just a matter of correcting the issue.
Starling said:
On the topic of SOLDIER, how exactly do people go about differentiating the specific term from the generic soldier? Are they written differently or is it largely about context?
"SOLDIER" is ソルジャー, pronounced "so-ru-jaa." Regular soldiers are 兵士, pronounced "he-i-shi."
Neat. I guess that makes sense since proper names derived from english words seem to be used that way whenever they come up, though it's been a while since I watched anything like anime in Japanese with english subtitles to remind me of that tendency.
Starling said:
If DG SOLDIERs aren't considered SOLDIERs in the conventional sense despite apparently being the original version, then were they ever?
To be fair, "conventional" only means "common" or "regular." Conventional automobiles of today aren't the originals either.
I figure it's more likely they meant conventional as in the standard variety of SOLDIER by the time of the OG, since it's the main reference point for most of the information given. Of course, you'd think that would be an excellent opportunity for them to say something about what way they're supposed to be unconventional. It generally just gives the impression that they're different from the standard SOLDIERs and unique experiments are said to be conducted in Deepground, which is left as the first thing that would come to mind about why they're unconventional. It could also be that they're unwilling test subjects trapped in a secret facility rather than people who joined willingly like the SOLDIERs in Shinra HQ. Essentially, their status as unconventional isn't really indicative of whether or not they're anything like the original SOLDIERs and it makes you wonder if there was ever a time where they would've been considered conventional to begin with.
Starling said:
The way the DG SOLDIERs are referred to as special and how at least some of them undergo unique experiments suggests that mako may be the only constant and that they're likely different from whatever the original SOLDIERs were like. On top of that, at least some of them were taken during the Wutai War, in which case they would have Jenova cells even if not all of them do. It's unlikely the Deepground SOLDIERs are exactly how SOLDIER originally was, especially since all sorts of experiments are being run down there in the constant pursuit of improvement.
To be fair (again), I only said that Deepground SOLDIERs are more similar to the originals and that they would have initially been made up of original SOLDIERs.
And the lack of certainty for how similar they are to what SOLDIER started out as means you can't say for sure what SOLDIER was originally like simply based on what's seen of Deepground.
Starling said:
The ultimania omega entry is still the only thing that specifically places SOLDIER's existence around Shinra's initial rise to power rather than at a later point.
Yet it says this more than once; it fits with what Cid says; and it fits with when Rosso was born. We aren't being asked to get a round peg to fit a square hole here.
If we find something out that is difficult to reconcile with the rest of this, I will acknowledge it all you like, but for now, we have a seamless flow of developments.
What Cid says confirms a war but doesn't confirm SOLDIER's involvement in it, more than an approximated time range, or that SOLDIER didn't have Jenova cells unless the timerange is unquestionably, without a doubt before Jenova was found. Alone it just increases the probability that SOLDIER was involved unless something contradicts that.
Rosso's date of birth doesn't add to SOLDIER predating Sephiroth as he was born before her. It just places Deepground's founding before 1985.
For that matter, why do we need more than one source book anyway?
Because the compilation is full of contradictions and so information provided from one part has to be compared to the rest, much like how researching requires the ability to find multiple credible sources supporting the information you're using. The Ultimanias are supplementary material rather than a true part of the compilation and so don't hold as much weight as the source material. In order to determine the best way to sort out contradictions concerning information on a particular subject all claiming to be canon, you have to compare what all the sources say, account for the quality of each source and figure out what information best matches up with everything else. Basically, the kind of thing that consistency thread would be around for once I finally get around to posting it.
Are we going to start calling into question every statement in every official source that only appears once, even when everything else we know about it fits?
Yes.
Just to clarify, questioning statements that presumably fit with everything else would simply be a matter of confirming that and would likely be done in the process of identifying the contradictions.
There are many things that have only ever come up once, such as the origin of Aerith's name, Cloud's final Limit Break from Advent Children Complete being named "Omnislash Ver.6," and Banora being on the same landmass as Mideel.
The first two don't really apply in-universe. We can tell that the limit break Cloud uses to finish off Sephiroth in ACC is a variation of Omnislash simply through visual comparison and since it's extremely unlikely 6 variations of it exist, in-universe it's more likely to be called Omnislash version 2, though they could also potentially not bother make much distinction between the two versions. For Banora, the terrain and prevalence of shallow lifestream that eventually wells to the surface is rather reminiscent of Mideel, so a statement that it's on the same landmass basically confirms existing suspicions based on observation. Still, they could always change their minds about the location if it's only stated in an Ultimania.
Starling said:
Considering Cloud had that emblem in the OG, it's more of a design retcon than anything else. DoC came before CC so that retcon hadn't occurred yet.
Like Minato said, that redesign was unveiled as far back as during Advent Children's development. It was visible on Sephiroth's earlier Compilation redesign in the earliest promotional materials:
http://www.creativeuncut.com/wallpaper/ff7-advent-children-01c.jpg
That image was released in 2004, but the redesign may have happened as early as 2003 when the first trailers were unveiled. I can't find high quality recordings to see if the emblem on Sephiroth's belt was already different by then -- not that it will really be necessary since we've already established the emblem was redesigned no later than 2004.
Ok. What are the chances of Deepground having always had a different emblem than standard SOLDIER? It'd make sense considering their status as something separate from regular SOLDIER and I don't think anything was said about the reasons behind the retcon.
Starling said:
It's still a single source and therefore not enough on its own, which is why additional sources and the absence of contradictions with information given by the rest of the compilation is important.
Long-held misunderstandings from the fandom don't count as contradictions, though.
That's not addressing the point being made here. Comparing information given in various parts of the compilation and finding that some of it doesn't line up is, in fact, a contradiction.
Starling said:
People's ability to jump absurd heights in ACC is difficult to measure when everyone seems to be able to ignore physics when convenient.
The ordinary people getting attacked by Shadow Creepers didn't seem to, despite how convenient that timing would have been for them.
Bystanders endangered by the shadow creepers being able to easily escape would be inconvenient for the screenwriters, while having a bunch of children suddenly jump into Cloud's path to force him to crash and make himself vulnerable to attack, is. It's been admitted that the physics in ACC don't accurately reflect how things work in the setting, as they were focusing on the way things looked.
Starling said:
If mako alone could already create SOLDIERs on par with the ones where Jenova cells were used, then Jenova cells would only be useful for the ones who were born with them and didn't really make a difference for anyone else as far as combat prowess goes.
Who said they didn't gain any benefit from the Jenova cells?
For that matter, what point are you trying to make here? Even disregarding this whole conversation about SOLDIER, it's well-established that mako enhances people on its own. Weiss's enhancements explicitly come from mako without Jenova. Makonoids are explicitly described as humans who have been transformed by continuous exposure to mako. Sephiroth's entire plot in the original game was to absorb the totality of the planet's mako.
I'm fully aware mako can do things on its own. For example, It's suggested that mako is responsible for monsters but since at least some of them are presumably naturally occurring wildlife, it would seem it's more that mako has made them more aggressive and possibly more powerful. The thing is, they're not really an example of how mako alone affects humans and most examples of mako exposure in humans is either about mako poisoning or involves other factors in experiments.
Jenova cells certainly make a difference for people who were born with them but since they're noticeably above SOLDIERs who also have Jenova cells and the Deepground SOLDIERs are treated as equivalent, you have to wonder if it makes a difference for the rest, especially if Deepground has a mix of Jenova and mako only SOLDIERs that are apparently relatively even in power.
The confusing thing about the makonoids is that they say they're that way due to mako exposure but they're found in pods with tubes going to Jenova's chamber and some of the Genesis copies look like them. Disregarding the possible involvement of Jenova, it was also noted that the pods were for condensing mako, possibly for making materia, which would also be a factor in how the mako affected them.
They say Weiss is pure and doesn't have any of Jenova's influence but as a Tsviet he'd have G cells, which are derived from Jenova cells. In his case it would be that G cells somehow don't count as an impurity or Jenova, possibly for reasons I've brought up earlier in the thread.
When it comes to humans made stronger by mako, the strongest examples comparable to SOLDIER tend to involve Jenova or some variation of its cells and if not, involve some experiment that isn't really viable for making a whole army that way. If you can make normal SOLDIERs with just mako and have them be just as strong as the ones with mako and Jenova cells, then that leaves the implication that among the standard SOLDIERs, the Jenova cells don't actually give them any particular advantage.
In conclusion, we're supposed to think a combination of Jenova and mako make better SOLDIERs but it isn't reflected in how the normal varieties of SOLDIER are shown. I'd like to determine why.
Starling said:
On top of that, wouldn't Shinra need to deal with every case of mako poisoning where someone survives with sufficient exposure to effectively do the same thing as if they were mako only SOLDIERs? Surely there've been people who managed that and Shinra would have to routinely hunt down and get rid of anyone who does to avoid competition, no matter how out of the way those people may be.
It goes without saying that such occurrences must be rare, if they ever occur. There's apparently enough medical knowledge about mako poisoning for a doctor in Mideel of all places to know how to diagnose it, yet we've still never heard of that sort of thing happening.
I would think that should sufficiently answer your question. A question that -- if it needed asking to begin with -- would already apply whether this conversation ever happened since mako poisoning is a thing that happens anyway and mako alone is already known to enhance people.
Why are you asking this like it's a problem that only arises if you can make a SOLDIER without Jenova? Again, mako has been demonstrated time and time again to be a source of enhancement and power with or without Jenova.
I ask because if mako is all it takes to make a SOLDIER, mako poisoning occurs with sufficient frequency for it to be known outside of Shinra and it's common knowledge that mako exposure is involved even though Jenova's use isn't, then anyone with the right equipment could basically get some mako, dunk people in them and get their own SOLDIERs on the same level, even though Jenova wouldn't be included. What difference then would Jenova make for the standard SOLDIER? What would make it worth including if only unique cases reap any benefit? What exactly would be stopping everyone with motive to try to make their own army of SOLDIERs that should turn out the same as the supposedly originally mako only SOLDIERs? Wouldn't Wutai have been able to try that if it was so easy?
It's also obvious, though, that Jenova provides something extra. Perhaps it increases magical strength more than anything, perhaps it simply makes one harder to kill -- but whatever it is, they clearly took to using it because they observed some benefit from doing so.
From what I can tell, mako increases magical strength while Jenova would more likely render people harder to kill, not that this seems to make much of a difference for most. There has to be a benefit to Jenova cells that's applicable to standard SOLDIERs if Shinra's been using it as long as it has but that doesn't address the issues posed by SOLDIER having originally only required mako.
As I pointed out above, this is yet another question that you should be asking regardless of this conversation if it's truly a question that needs answering. Honestly, even if Sephiroth were the first SOLDIER of any kind, do you think they would have never bothered to see what happens if you do the process without using Jenova cells as well?
Wasn't that how they got stuff like the makonoids? Hojo definitely makes liberal use of mako outside of his Jenova experiments but it doesn't mean they came up with anything viable for standard enhancement before Jenova was used. Deepground seems to come across as where they do the bulk of the human experimentation to get stronger SOLDIERs, though without regard for viability of those methods as an addition to SOLDIER. That Deepground SOLDIERs are dependent on near constant mako exposure just to function is hardly a desirable trait for the regular SOLDIERs and would easily be quite problematic outside of an army that's kept on as tight a leash as Deepground, given next to no freedom.
Starling said:
I meant more on an administrative level. Did they stop accepting new SOLDIERs for a few years to implement the new system or just keep the old one until they worked out the kinks for the new one? If consent is such a big deal like the SOLDIER entry seems to suggest, then how do they even accomplish anything through unethical experimentation? Surely it'd skew the results and generally be less effective, costing them time and resources. On top of that, why would they keep the old version instead of updating the whole group? Is it because they don't have the sense not to constantly kill their assets?
You're asking questions for which there aren't answers any fan could know -- and for that matter, these are more questions that really don't need answering. What we know and need to know is that Shin-Ra was corrupt and conducted experiments that were thoroughly amoral.
Well, I was hoping you'd at least have some speculative input on that. If something can't be outright proven or disproven, then the next best thing is to see if you can narrow down the possibilities and determine what's possible and maybe even what's probable out of those. You have to ask those kinds of questions if you're going to determine what makes sense and what doesn't from an in-universe perspective and then figure out why. To leave this matter to Shinra doing things for the evulz without at least trying to determine if there's more to it than that would be wholly unsatisfying.
When our bad guys are at the point of performing random, Nazi-esque experiments on people just to see what happens while their
officers wear Nazi-esque uniforms and the troops shout "Sieger!" (ズィーガー
-- the German word for "victor," and etymology of the Nazi's "Sieg heil!" salute (as if the point wasn't already driven home) -- then trying to introduce strict logic into the equation becomes a waste of time.
Especially when we're discussing fictional villains who simply need to be presented as callous and loathsome to be effective in their roles.
(To clarify what I'm referring to, the Deepground salute translated as "Hail Weiss!" was "Saiger! Weiss!" in the Japanese text and audio. You can see Azul and several DG SOLDIERs say it at the 13:00-minute mark in
this video.)
The Nazi stuff in the lost episode makes me wonder if it had anything to do with why it was never localized. They probably overdid it on the similarities.
Starling said:
So I guess what Cid says in the OG supports that a second war did actually happen. However, if that other ultimania entry you quoted is from the same one as the other, then those entries should count as the same source. Otherwise it'd be like trying to cite two different parts of the same document or book as separate sources in a research project that requires multiple sources. Of course, it's still an interesting entry and relevant to the discussion so I'm glad you translated it. As it stands, the other war seems to be canon but SOLDIER's involvement can't be confirmed to still apply, as Shinra could very well have had a more passive role simply selling weapons rather than actually deploying specialized troops.
Both entries explicitly speak of SOLDIER involvement and of Shin-Ra directly ending the war themselves. Again, we're not talking about anything from the Early Material File section, in which case doubt about the final product would be called for.
It's from the same Ultimania so you're still talking about the same source. If it was from a different Ultimania then you'd have multiple sources even if neither of them would be from the games/ACC, like the 30 years thing for Jenova you brought up before, though I'm still unsure if mention of that approximation in multiple Utimanias should be taken over the date given in ACC.
Starling said:
Only four? Weren't they originally an entire SOLDIER unit?
For all we know, there were never more than four in said unit. We don't have any other units with a known membership size to compare them to.
A quick search tells me that military organization forms groups as follows, give or take a grouping depending on the specific military in question:
Region/Theater > Military Group/Front > Army > Corps > Division > Brigade/Group/Reinforced Regiment > Battalion/Regiment > Company/Artillery Battery/US Cavalry Troop > Platoon/Commonwealth Troop/French Army Section > Section/Patrol (Around 1-2 Squads or 3-6 Fireteams, 12-24 soldiers)> Squad/Crew (around 2-3 Fireteams, 8-14 soldiers) > Fireteam (usually 4 people or less) > Support/Specialist team (3 people or less)
Army to Region is classified as command, Regiment to Corps as formations and anything equivalent to a battalion is a unit, which can number into the thousands. Companies and equivalent are subunits consisting of around 80-250 soldiers, followed by Platoons as sub-subunits consisting of around 26-55. 4 people would essentially consist of the second smallest organized military unit in use within the military, which also happens to be the unit most modern military organization bases its infantry around.
If they really only mean 4 people for a SOLDIER unit, then apparent misuse of military terminology aside, I suppose this along with Zack being sent on his own or only accompanied by a few people could indicate that SOLDIER really is supposed to be small enough that it's only deployed as small specialized groups accompanied by regular infantry, Turks, etc depending on what they're being sent to do. Of course, this makes the rampant loss of SOLDIERs to fuel excessively large opposing groups that act as canon fodder whenever you fight them such as all the Genesis copies and Deepground SOLDIERs even more glaring.
Starling said:
Just because it was great in the early days of the internet doesn't mean it's great now that times and the internet have changed.
GameFAQs continues to have an enormous user base, so I don't think it's hurting them. For that matter, have you seen the primitive interface for 2chan, Japan's largest online community (10 million users daily)?
Ease of use often trumps razzle dazzle -- especially now with so many people likely to use mobile devices to access their site. I'm pleased to see a high-traffic western site uninterested in vapid decoration that eats up data and increases load time/demand on memory. There are too many sites (news sites especially) that are almost impossible to use on mobile for reasons like that.
Never heard of 2chan, though the existence of 4chan implies 1chan-3chan exist. I've seen screenshots of 4chan and it's so dated I wonder how anyone manages to keep a conversation straight, especially when the page offsets them diagonally. It's like looking at an improperly loaded webpage and trying to navigate the sheer nonsense it appears to be when in that state. Maybe it's because I didn't use the internet much around those days for previously stated reasons but it's just not the kind of format I find intuitive and easy to navigate. As time goes on and more people grow up with the current state of the internet, the people who spent their early internet years with those dated formats will make up a smaller and smaller fraction of the current day internet users. You may have a point about mobile but I don't see why anyone would want to look up such long FAQs on a tiny phone screen of all things. Phones aren't really meant for more than quick internet searches anyway.
Starling said:
I find it strange you find my summary of BC unfair while agreeing with the KH one even though the same issues apply.
Your summary of BC was fine. This comment was inaccurate, though: "It's a spinoff that wasn't meant to be treated as a legitimate compilation entry or else it wouldn't be a phone game."
They've always treated BC as a legitimate entry, and given it plenty of attention. Last Order and Dirge of Cerberus Lost Episode are the only titles they've disavowed being part of the Compilation. Ironically, DC Lost Episode was a mobile title as well, but was the only one of the two to be orphaned.
And anyway, like I mentioned, FFIV: The After Years came to mobile first.
As I elaborated, making BC a phone game hurt its ability to be of adequate quality as a compilation entry. That at least part of it is no longer considered canon should be evidence of this. FF4 has the benefit of being made in a way current cellphone technology would have an easier time managing an adequate sequel to than they could manage with something meant to be part of the compilation. That other compilation entries suffer from poor writing just shows that the limitations of a phone game in no way helped the way it turned out, no matter how seriously Japan may take its phone games. It's not the weakest compilation entry for nothing.
