Why is There So Much Hatred On Genesis?
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jazzflower92
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Lets just say people have issues with him because they find him annoying.He pops into scenes that didn't originally have him at all like Nibelheim.He spouts inane quotes that is trying to pass off as some great work of literature.The narrative tries to paint him as being sympathetic when he is really a murderous,self centered jerk who ruins lives in the name of his agenda.He is never punished for his crimes and at the end is even cured of his condition.
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I think most fans see him as unnecessary, it was more of Nomura being a Gackt fanboy. His inclusion diluted Sephiroths uniqueness.
Maybe he wouldnt have been as hated if he hadn't been inserted into the FF7 universe and had starred in a new FF title. I think for many fans, he was a symptom of SE raising our hopes, really most of us wanted to know more about our favourite characters, but SE just focused on Cloud and Seph and then gave us new characters that we didnt really care about.
As a character Genesis just doesn't seem very original, just style over substance.
Maybe he wouldnt have been as hated if he hadn't been inserted into the FF7 universe and had starred in a new FF title. I think for many fans, he was a symptom of SE raising our hopes, really most of us wanted to know more about our favourite characters, but SE just focused on Cloud and Seph and then gave us new characters that we didnt really care about.
As a character Genesis just doesn't seem very original, just style over substance.
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jazzflower92
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Crisis Core was just a big "They Wasted A Perfectly Good Plot" game.I mean they should have given focus onto the Wutai War and the consequences of Shinra conquering it.It would have been tolerable if both Angeal and Genesis betrayed Shinra and allied with Wutai.
Angeal would do it for more noble reasons while Genesis would do it for more self serving ones.
And they would leave the Jenova Project out the game until they get to Nibelheim.Plus have Angeal and Genesis just be normal SOLDIERS.
Angeal would do it for more noble reasons while Genesis would do it for more self serving ones.
And they would leave the Jenova Project out the game until they get to Nibelheim.Plus have Angeal and Genesis just be normal SOLDIERS.
Unlucky
WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN
Interestingly there's a thread with the exact opposite title:
http://thelifestream.net/forums/showthread.php?t=13518
Ironically, most of the answers there explain why everyone hates him so much.
We should probably create a new sub-section called the Genesis collection. Just about every thread about him ends up becoming a hate thread
Now, commence hating
http://thelifestream.net/forums/showthread.php?t=13518
Ironically, most of the answers there explain why everyone hates him so much.
We should probably create a new sub-section called the Genesis collection. Just about every thread about him ends up becoming a hate thread
As others have already said, to me he symbolises the wasted opportunity that was "Crisis Core". And yet he has his fans. I'm not one, obvsly, but I just read a good fanfic by Sinnatious which featured not only Genesis but Genesis/Cloud. ("Beloved"; it's on AO3.) Ir's very easy - too easy? - to dismiss everyone who likes Genesis as nothing more than deluded Gackt fanboys; I would really love to hear from some Genesis fans about why they like this character.
You poor soul, I apologize for the ensuing dogpile.
I wouldn't go so far as to say I like him, but he doesn't bother me the way he seems to bother others. I've butted heads with jazzflower on many occasions about her idea that the game wanted us to sympathize with him, because I don't, nor did I feel compelled to. It is true that he was unnecessary, and I understand why THAT bothers fans, but that doesn't have anything to do with the character.
I don't think he looks more like Gackt than he does any other Nomura character, and I don't think he's more "annoying" than any other villain. He's just...a villain. I suppose that's damning in and of itself for a series fairly renowned for its villains, but eh. He strikes me as a less memorable Kuja.
And his sword is awesome.
I wouldn't go so far as to say I like him, but he doesn't bother me the way he seems to bother others. I've butted heads with jazzflower on many occasions about her idea that the game wanted us to sympathize with him, because I don't, nor did I feel compelled to. It is true that he was unnecessary, and I understand why THAT bothers fans, but that doesn't have anything to do with the character.
I don't think he looks more like Gackt than he does any other Nomura character, and I don't think he's more "annoying" than any other villain. He's just...a villain. I suppose that's damning in and of itself for a series fairly renowned for its villains, but eh. He strikes me as a less memorable Kuja.
And his sword is awesome.
PhantomSephiroth
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That's the case with most shit that has been trown in the FFVII universe.
jazzflower92
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http://www.fanfiction.net/s/6595872/1/Final-Fantasy-VII-Another-Side
If you are interested in a AU story where Genesis is the one who causes the Nibelheim incident and becomes the main villain instead of Sephiroth then this will be a great read for you.It might not be for everyone but it certainly has become popular.It also has a draws a lot from Crisis Core,Before Crisis,and Dirge of Cerebrus.
If you are interested in a AU story where Genesis is the one who causes the Nibelheim incident and becomes the main villain instead of Sephiroth then this will be a great read for you.It might not be for everyone but it certainly has become popular.It also has a draws a lot from Crisis Core,Before Crisis,and Dirge of Cerebrus.
Splintered
unsavory tart
Sorry, but Genesis is somewhat of a sore spot for me.
He's such a poorly written character, he felt awkwardly thrust into moments that worked better without him, his character felt like it was falling flat in what it was trying to do, he lacked chemistry with other characters, he wasn't intimidating as a villain, his dialogue gave me second hand embarrassment, he wasn't thought provoking at all.
Even the creator's intent with him is so unclear, we've spent an entire long thread trying to figure out if he was a creator's woobie pet that we were meant to sympathize with, or purposely irritating. And even when he was suppose to be irritating, I believe it wouldn't be like the way he frustrated me as a player, where I was so annoyed at all his screentime I was aggressively mashing x to skip his dialogue rather than a "Shush you villain!" type of feel. It felt like he took away from each scene more than he added. Repetition CAN work for dialogue, but here it was just boring at best and pretentious at worst.
The Reactor scene is the one that most people talk about but I feel like it's just the worst example of a bigger problem, the plot centering around Genesis was boring to play through and there was better time spent elsewhere. I absolutely loved Crisis Core. But it was best when it was a character piece, focusing on Zack and his relationships with the people around him, and his slow realization of the corruption in Shinra and the loss of his dreams. Genesis was a part of it, but easily the worst part and I feel as if he could have been written out, and with time the story would have been better for it.
An interview once said (I can't find the source anymore) that there was once plans to make more story about Zack and Cloud's trip to Midgar. That would have been amazing, but no... have some more Genesis monologuing about some other stupid shit.
Then at the very last of the game you realize his dream is to hurrr eat dumbaples with his frendz and he gets to see the goddess is completely cured with the woobie look on his face is cured and at the end of DoC he goes on about work to be done- which apparently is about saving the world. Give me a fucking break.
...
But yeah his sword is pretty cool.
He's such a poorly written character, he felt awkwardly thrust into moments that worked better without him, his character felt like it was falling flat in what it was trying to do, he lacked chemistry with other characters, he wasn't intimidating as a villain, his dialogue gave me second hand embarrassment, he wasn't thought provoking at all.
Even the creator's intent with him is so unclear, we've spent an entire long thread trying to figure out if he was a creator's woobie pet that we were meant to sympathize with, or purposely irritating. And even when he was suppose to be irritating, I believe it wouldn't be like the way he frustrated me as a player, where I was so annoyed at all his screentime I was aggressively mashing x to skip his dialogue rather than a "Shush you villain!" type of feel. It felt like he took away from each scene more than he added. Repetition CAN work for dialogue, but here it was just boring at best and pretentious at worst.
The Reactor scene is the one that most people talk about but I feel like it's just the worst example of a bigger problem, the plot centering around Genesis was boring to play through and there was better time spent elsewhere. I absolutely loved Crisis Core. But it was best when it was a character piece, focusing on Zack and his relationships with the people around him, and his slow realization of the corruption in Shinra and the loss of his dreams. Genesis was a part of it, but easily the worst part and I feel as if he could have been written out, and with time the story would have been better for it.
An interview once said (I can't find the source anymore) that there was once plans to make more story about Zack and Cloud's trip to Midgar. That would have been amazing, but no... have some more Genesis monologuing about some other stupid shit.
Then at the very last of the game you realize his dream is to hurrr eat dumbaples with his frendz and he gets to see the goddess is completely cured with the woobie look on his face is cured and at the end of DoC he goes on about work to be done- which apparently is about saving the world. Give me a fucking break.
...
But yeah his sword is pretty cool.
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Personally, I think why people don't like Genesis is because SE did not explicitly say what his background was like they did with Sephrioth and Angeal. Instead, they dropped hints about what he did and who he was/is (parents were the landlords of Banora, he explored the Banora Underground as a kid, took 1st place in a science competition, somehow got a large portion of SOLDIER to desert without anyone in Shin-Ra finding out he was behind it, somehow got from DeepGround to where ever he was at the end of DoC etc.) and then let the player draw their own conclusions. The problem with this approach is that it leaves who Genesis is as a person up to the Player's headcanon in a franchise where canon is a big part of the discussion.
The thread Unlucky linked to has what I actually think of him in it.
The thread Unlucky linked to has what I actually think of him in it.
I'm still very incredulous that his "saving the world" is going to be anything but a bad thing.
And lol, look at me talking like SE's ever actually going to finish it.
And lol, look at me talking like SE's ever actually going to finish it.
jazzflower92
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Lets hope Square never finishes it because I think that will the final straw for many fans.
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More like "saving the Planet/Lifestream"... you know, the one that made all the WEAPONs that started going after cities that were mako powered...
Unlucky
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While I don't think Genesis was the sole reason, he's a large part of why Crisis Core turned out to be a very disappointing prequel. To me, Crisis Core is Genesis's game. It's his story, his 'friendships' and rivalries, his hatred-- which we happened to see through the eyes of a guy named Zack.
Whatever happened to the Wutai war? Zack and Cloud's friendship which plays a pivotal role in the original game? Cloud's days as a weak loser? The rebellion against Shinra?
In place of that we have his clones, his bitching, his deterioration, fascination with a poem and a goddess, fascination with a fruit..
Wasted opportunity indeed.
Whatever happened to the Wutai war? Zack and Cloud's friendship which plays a pivotal role in the original game? Cloud's days as a weak loser? The rebellion against Shinra?
In place of that we have his clones, his bitching, his deterioration, fascination with a poem and a goddess, fascination with a fruit..
Wasted opportunity indeed.
The focus not being on the Wutai War positively is a huge wasted opportunity. But the game is not about Genesis, come on now. We follow Zack's experience, Zack's persona as he matures over the course of a few years, learning how his dreams and ambitions are related and contrary to those of SOLDIER and Shinra. We see Zack get betrayed again and again. We see Zack fall in love. We see Zack realize jsut what sort of organization he works for. We see Zack make friends and relationships, with main characters and NPCs alike.
This is Zack's game, and that is plainly obvious. If anything, Genesis is proof that Square thought they required a foil to tell his story, a nemesis, when they didn't. But it's not Genesis' game.
This is Zack's game, and that is plainly obvious. If anything, Genesis is proof that Square thought they required a foil to tell his story, a nemesis, when they didn't. But it's not Genesis' game.
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i can't be the only one who wasn't that bothered to find out more about the wutai war. while i am sure you could have made an interesting story in that setting, i didn't think it was something that really needed expanding on. not that the newly made up stories of new character were 'needed', which was perhaps not the best choice of words. but it seems to be a complaint that comes up a lot, even though what we knew about zack from the original game didn't really hint at him having any significant involvement in the war.
jazzflower92
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One note to Square though make a nemisis that is a complete foil to Zack and don't at all try to pass him off as redeemable.Make it blatant that said nemesis is a selfish prick that is only doing it for himself and not because of some greater good.On that note make him full blown deconstruction of a those who seek heroism only for the celebrity status.
Unlucky
WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN
-- fighting against Genesis
-- while fighting Genesis
-- because of his mentor AND Genesis
-- which all weren't stressed enough to make way for the struggle against Genesis
I wouldn't disagree that CC touched on Zack's story as well. The relationships he had with Angeal, Aerith, Cloud, Shinra, Sephiroth, even Kunsel were all parts of the plot that I wished were delved more into, and not cut short in favor of his conflicts with the main antagonist. Take away Genesis and what do you have left of Crisis Core's plotline? Nada.
Okay, so FF6 is about Kefka, and FF7 is about Sephiroth and FF9 is about Kuja. Of course the story follows him, he's the villain.
And he wasn't freakin redeemed, he just didn't die. They're not the same thing. He WAS a selfish prick that did everything for himself and not for a greater good. And that's what he was for the entire game. At no point did he stop being those things!
And he wasn't freakin redeemed, he just didn't die. They're not the same thing. He WAS a selfish prick that did everything for himself and not for a greater good. And that's what he was for the entire game. At no point did he stop being those things!
Splintered
unsavory tart
Yeah but the Genesis plot line seems to stumble clumsily in the story, Sephiroth's conflicted and HERE'S GENESIS, Angeal's slipping away because GENESIS, Shinra is evil see Genesis. He was never central, but he clumsily crashed into the story and like I said, it wouldn't have been so bad if he didn't actually take away from the scenes rather than add to them. His character is defined so lazily that people can barely understand why he is doing it.
I suppose he could be a foil, but only in the shallowest of "they both wanted to be heroes and grew up from small towns" of terms. As far as journeys, or traits, or trials, or relationships with other characters it doesn't work.
And him living to save the world, redemption for a villain is nothing new. But I think that it needs to be carefully done, I felt like Genesis's was an asspull, a ten second revelation of seeing the Goddess, getting forgiven from Zack and cured because I don't know. And now he's going to defend the planet from I don't know. The fact it was Weiss who was a nondescript but equally ineffectual villain was even more hilarious.
I'm too passionate about Genesis, guys, I shouldn't invest so much in disliking a character. But I do. >__>
I suppose he could be a foil, but only in the shallowest of "they both wanted to be heroes and grew up from small towns" of terms. As far as journeys, or traits, or trials, or relationships with other characters it doesn't work.
And him living to save the world, redemption for a villain is nothing new. But I think that it needs to be carefully done, I felt like Genesis's was an asspull, a ten second revelation of seeing the Goddess, getting forgiven from Zack and cured because I don't know. And now he's going to defend the planet from I don't know. The fact it was Weiss who was a nondescript but equally ineffectual villain was even more hilarious.
I'm too passionate about Genesis, guys, I shouldn't invest so much in disliking a character. But I do. >__>
Okay. That still doesn't mean the story was about him. It just means he was poorly written, which I didn't dispute.
He's supposed to be a foil because he's everything that Zack is not. Again, I didn't say it was effective, I said that's why he exists, because they felt they needed a foil for Zack, and I don't think they did.
He wasn't redeemed! If Square actually made another Compilation game I would bet ANYTHING that Genesis would be evil and killed by Avalanche (or someone). Pretty much everything in that world that wants to save the world sucks (except Barret). Zack "forgave him" because Angeal was so intent on saving him and because he got all sentimental.
Why is the fact that he got cured something so miraculous but not the fact the he turned into a 40-foot tall monster? Whatever magic he used to do that healed him.
And this is what confuses me so, how people feel so passionate about him. (good or bad, I'm told he has fans but I haven't met one) He's...unremarkable. As I said that's a bad thing on it's own, but whatever. He was a tool, a plot device, for Zack's story. A story that I liked in a game that I had fun with so I guess that's why I'm not overflowing with ill will towards him.
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I see Genesis as a foil for not Zack, but Sphiroth; they both go through similar arcs of finding out what they really are, but come to very different conclusions about their place in relationship to the Planet/Lifestream.
And saying Crisis Core is about Genesis is like saying Naruto is about Sasuke... just because someone drives the plot and provides a motivation to the main character does not mean an epic is about them.
And saying Crisis Core is about Genesis is like saying Naruto is about Sasuke... just because someone drives the plot and provides a motivation to the main character does not mean an epic is about them.
jazzflower92
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Actually if you think about it the manga kinda has become very much about Sasuke and that is why I don't read "Naruto" anymore because of the way the story in my opinion lazily redeemed him.
And Crisis Core did the same with Genesis as well.
Orah, why do you respect him?