The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

Ok. Staff have discussed it, and though many of them were in favor of just simply shutting it down for good, we have agreed to give it another shot.

I don't believe in dictating what people can or can't talk about, so I want to give this another chance to work and give everyone another shot at discussing this Debate that they seem to enjoy talking about.

Here's the deal, there will be no more toleration of any kind of foolishness. If you flame someone, you will be banned. If you troll, you will be banned. If you try and use past events as a weapon against people, you will be banned. Off topic bullshit isn't acceptable either, save the frivolous banter for the clubs please(which might I add, are a haven for whatever their subjects are, if you have a problem with whatever pairing or character the club pertains to, DON'T FUCKING POST any bullshit you have against them). ANYTHING not regarding the LTD and the pairings concerned is off topic, full stop. If you can't keep from doing shit like this, you may as well not even bother posting. Try and circumvent these standards and it will be treated the same as a violation of them. This is not a game.

If it gets so bad that we're banning too many people, we're going to shut down the entire debate for at least a year, but I don't think it will come to that. You people all have it within you to demonstrate basic civility and I expect you to do so. Despite how we may behave sometimes, we are not children.

Now myself and my fellow mods will not go for outright bans on every offense, we will mostly be issuing temp bans, but we do have the ability to completely nix your permissions to this thread and we will make use of it.

The premise is simple, discuss the LTD, do it respectfully and civilly, and we will have no problem. Don't, and I will bring the hammer of god down as fast the internet will allow.

All that said, have fun, and don't fuck it up.

Macros have been expressly banned from the thread. This has been said often enough. It is being added here so no one will have an excuse.

Just as a footnote to Dacon's excellent opening post, I feel compelled to add that several of us have explicitly agreed to watch this thread like a hawk as a direct precondition to reopening it. If you are dicks to each other, we will find out about it, and we will deal with it quickly. Staff are probably as united on this issue as we've ever been: This thread will not be allowed to become the cesspit it was in every previous incarnation, and we are prepared to do whatever necessary to ensure this does not happen.

Additionally, any post which is not directly relevant to at least one of the pairings covered in the LTD will be considered off-topic and dealt with as necessary. No exceptions.



The Eye of Sauron is fucking watching you.

So like I want to post a video right now of Spike from MLP going "NOOOO!"... that would be out as well? It's not on topic but last time videos were okay to post and... just checking so I don't get banned.

WHAT THE FUCK DID I JUST SAY WOMAN

DON'T TEMPT ME

I WILL PULL THIS FUCKING TRIGGER

Yes. Do not do it. We're as serious as a heart attack regarding this thread.

This entire topic has created its own subculture of BS and nonsense that frankly, we have zero patience for anymore. The strict regulation is in response to the sheer amount of bullcrap that's happened here so it's a whole new game in terms of posting and regulations.

It may suck, but well... that's how it is. It's kinda been pushed to this point.

Now, resume your discussion of triangles of love.

EDIT: And no macros. Keep that shit out of the thread.

One last thing which wasn't made explicit in the OP, but I feel deserves to be made explicit just so no one can say they had no idea they were breaking a rule: The Lifestream has an explicit rule against bringing discussions here from other boards. In other words, what happens at YouTube stays at YouTube. What happens on FinalFantasyForums.net stays on FinalFantasyForums.net. What happens at CxA stays at CxA. Period. We did not enforce this rule in any previous incarnation of this thread. It will be enforced consistently from here on out. Anyone who violates it will receive at least a warning, if not an infraction or even an outright ban. Don't test us.

The complete list of TLS rules is here. They will be consistently enforced going forward. If you're not familiar with them, now would be a good time to refamiliarise yourself with them, because they will be enforced.

What is this thread about?

It doesn’t clearly say in the first post, and given that the ban hammer seems to be restless in the hands of the mods it might be a good idea to clearly define in a sentence what exactly is to be discussed here.

New members or those that don’t follow TLS threads/politics closely aren’t going to know what they are blundering into. I’m guessing it’s the ongoing Cloti or Cleris debate?

It plainly says this is the new LTD thread. Now discuss or gtfo.

I'm pretty sure Russell simply isn't really sure what the LTD thread is. If it were anyone else, with the possible exception of User Name, I wouldn't believe that possible, but well, it's Russell.

The purpose of this thread is to discuss the love triangle between Tifa, Cloud, and Aerith, and to discuss which of them Cloud loves. So basically, yes, Russell's speculation in his final sentence is correct

Now kneel before Zod.

Well, good job keeping the "off topic bullshit" to a minimum so far.

Either start a discussion or don't post. That is the absolute last warning to everyone.

I honestly believe Cloud really loves Tifa. But can't get the balls to say it properly. Even in AC.

And a bold soul steps forth I shall assist in attempting to kickstart it.

I agree, I also don't think Cloud was thinking much about romance during FF7. Maybe that's a side effect of letting the player choose who he's friendly to. But even your chances to flirt dry out after disc 1. He seems completely dead-set on his mission the entire time. Not that he is or is not oblivious about women anyway, but it would help explain why he's almost completely unaware of Aerith's and Tifa's advances. He even seems pretty ready to go on with the mission before dawn the morning after with Tifa (no matter what happened), she has to tell him to stay for some snuggling.

Vash the Stampede said:

Not that he is or is not oblivious about women anyway

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Actually...

Both Aerith, who is forthright, and Tifa, who is demure, have feelings for Cloud but he is none the wiser to them.

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So I agree, I don't think he's thinking much about romance at all, at least not until the highwind scene when he finally decides he should say something.

I felt the Highwind and Lifestream sequences pretty clearly indicated what Cloud's actual feelings were even before the release of all the Compilation material that clarified the matter, but yeah, it's obvious he isn't very good at expressing himself. For one thing, it doesn't help that he isn't himself for most of the game. I didn't even pick up on that at first as I was playing through; I knew that there was something wrong with him but it wasn't until the big reveal about how he had taken on Zack's persona came through that I realised what was going on. That said, I think it's obvious that he liked Aerith a lot, but I don't see much evidence that this was in a romantic way, and I'd read enough "childhood friend wins" scenarios by that point to have seen the actual outcome of the LT coming for awhile.

I don't think Cloud was thinking much about romance... ever. However, the bond that Cloud and Tifa share exceeds the one that was shared between he and Aerith. C & T have been together since childhood, and back then Cloud was open about his crush on Tifa, his promise, how he wanted to protect her. Later in FFVII, Cloud tells Tifa that nothing about the past has changed, Tifa says nothing else matters- just Cloud. She pieces his mind back together, understands him the most out of any other person, and now they're raising a family together. They even have their arguments [CoT and ACC], but grow closer because they over come their obstacles [statement in some Ultimania somewhere that I CBA to check]. Cloud has always been awkward and introverted, and Tifa has always been introverted as well. I think they connect more because of having similar personality types.

Not to say that Cloud and Aerith didn't have something special. They had a bond that Tifa didn't have herself with Cloud, but I don't think it's romantic. There's such thing as someone who is more than a friend, but less than a lover... and that's how I see Aerith to Cloud. She showed him a new side to things, and helped him through his hard times just as Tifa did. When it all comes down to it though, Aerith wouldn't have been able to see into Cloud's heart the way that Tifa did. She didn't fully understand him, and she only got a glimpse of who Cloud really is during the time that she was living. Cloud admits that only Tifa's opinion matters and everything will be okay as long as Tifa is around which is something he has never told Aerith.

Cloud has always been awkward and introverted, and Tifa has always been introverted as well. I think they connect more because of having similar personality types.

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I've never really felt that Cloud and Tifa necessarily go better together than Cloud and Aerith. More just that Cloud loved Tifa and what he felt for Aerith wasn't really explored enough to say for sure. I mean, Cloud and Aerith were given the kind of personalities we are suppose to expect from the main guy and main girl who eventually get together. That's part of the façade to make her death have more of an impact.

Gotta say I'm liking this threads new direction. Makes me actually want to post.

That said I believe that Cloud definetely loves Tifa, and vice versa. Like others have said he's really bad at expressing himself, so its not always obvious to others, Tifa included, that such is the case. But she clearly means a lot, and the highwind scene pretty much convinced me the first time around.

He also definetely liked Aerith a lot. Thats pretty much a fact. As for whether or not he had romantic feelings for her, I think he might have. I just don't think they were together long enough for him to really realize it.

Captain America said:

I felt the Highwind and Lifestream sequences pretty clearly indicated what Cloud's actual feelings were even before the release of all the Compilation material that clarified the matter

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THIS. As someone who used to debate when there was nothing but FF7, I can't tell you how much I agree with that. As a matter of fact, the first time I played the game when I was older (and less immature), I wasn't even aware there was an LTD.

Yeah, Cloud is more focused on his mission than lurve, something that sets this game apart from the other FFs, in my opinion. I kind of liked that quality about him. And it made the HAHW scene and LS so much more significant when they happened because, quite frankly, it was shocking to see him come out with that sort of emotion.

As for Cloud and Aerith, agreed on what was said. There was definitely potential for these two as lovers and it's why her death scene was made more tragic; the fact that we never get to find out. That being said, they still have an irreplaceable bond that is much different than the one Cloud and Tifa share, but still just as important. She is more than capable of helping him through difficult times, as we saw her do in AC/C.

The girl does love him, too, after all.

Bonnie MacFarlane said:

So I agree, I don't think he's thinking much about romance at all, at least not until the highwind scene when he finally decides he should say something.

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See, that always confused me because there was a contradictory quote about him wavering between the two ladies. But that's typical Square Enix retconning.

Lord Noctis said:

As for whether or not he had romantic feelings for her, I think he might have. I just don't think they were together long enough for him to really realize it.

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Agreed. How long did he actually know Aerith when you talk in game terms? Wasn't it something like two weeks? They clearly had something for them to mean as much to each other as they did in such a short time.
But the rest of the team also cared deeply for her in that short amount of time. Cid barely knew her at all.

Knowing just how short it was makes her death all the more sad

The thing with Cloud and Tifa is, let's say they knocked boots under the Highwind and confirmed their feelings for each other in the Lifestream. I remember the line in CoT, where she point blank asks Cloud if he loves her, and he doesn't answer. The two of them being hesitant to express themselves aside, I'm wondering if perhaps the "unspoken" confirmation isn't enough for Tifa, maybe she knows Cloud loves her but still wants to hear the words someday.

Of course this all assumes Cloud *does* love Tifa, which we all know is a crock, but for the sake of argument.

DrakeClawfang said:

The thing with Cloud and Tifa is, let's say they knocked boots under the Highwind and confirmed their feelings for each other in the Lifestream. I remember the line in CoT, where she point blank asks Cloud if he loves her, and he doesn't answer. The two of them being hesitant to express themselves aside, I'm wondering if perhaps the "unspoken" confirmation isn't enough for Tifa, maybe she knows Cloud loves her but still wants to hear the words someday.

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I believe that Tifa has a lot of insecurities. She feels jealous of Aerith at one point because she's more open with her feelings and it's possible a sudden confirmation like having sex with Cloud followed by the two of them moving in together would have made her uncomfortable. Basically, assuming that they did that, Tifa could still be worried.

I dunno, it seems like a normal girlfriend thing to me to have a girl questioning her boyfriend whether or not he loves her, even moreso after they have been having arguments or he's been distant or whatever. But Cloud is still blocked from saying things given his answer of 'I don't know how to approach her' to asking if he loves Marlene. Cloud is seriously socially stunted and more than likely emotionally stunted, and this shows frequently in his interactions with people in the family, except possibly Denzel.

So maybe Cloud has some sort of 'ew girls have cooties' issue that I don't want to touch with a ten foot pole.

I dunno, it seems like a normal girlfriend thing to me to have a girl questioning her boyfriend whether or not he loves her, even moreso after they have been having arguments or he's been distant or whatever.

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And to add. A girl, or guy even, who is feeling insecure about this kind of thing isn't going to ask the other person if they love them without there being some reason to believe it in the first place.