The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

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Elisa Maza

NYC Detective
AKA
Darkslover, Lilith, Seras Victoria, Tea-chan, Groose
#26
See, that always confused me because there was a contradictory quote about him wavering between the two ladies. But that's typical Square Enix retconning.
Wouldn't this refer to the choices the player could have during this time? :shifty: I mean, you can choose which of the girls you favour in disk 1. I figured they said this to recognize and include the choices of each player, because each player might had chosen any girl to be good at.

Underline for emphasis (<-- Ms Obvious)
 
#27
@Brooke: Definitely. And things seemed to be going fine until that point, with Cloud spending time with the kids and taking a day off to spend with them. It was only after Cloud's deliveries kept taking him back to painful places that he started to grow more reserved, and that's what caused Tifa to be concerned about that.

That was one of my favorite parts of On the Way to a Smile, by the way. The way Tifa, half speaking to her self, asks if he loves her, which grabs his attention. But when she repeats it she switches it to Marlene. I thought that was a very easy to picture scenario and exhibited some of the best storytelling in the book.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
#28
Actually, I do like the revised version a lot, but that's probably my bias speaking. However, I think it's clear that this part is definitely one of the best, because it's very subtle and yet tells you everything you have to know about those two:

After making certain that Cloud was asleep, she spoke to him.
A subtle way to make everyone go ah? It's one of the most disputed parts of this story, I believe, but to me it definitely shows that they do share a room and/or a bed.

&#8220;We&#8217;ll be all right, won&#8217;t we?&#8221;

Of course, there was no answer. I only heard the sound of him sleeping. I wondered if the fact that he was sleeping here meant that he was part of the family.
This is "home", where Cloud belongs, as stated again and again by both Nojima and the compilation.

&#8220;Do you love me?&#8221;
In truth, those words are often spoken by girls. A French comic said "girls are stupid; when they ask you "do you love me?", they forget the answer, because once you tell them "yes I do", they will ask you again and again in the same day!" I think it definitely shows that yeah, girls in couple do tend to ask that question. Even when they KNOW the answer already.

And it's especially normal to ponder if the guy is drifting away, as Cloud was, eaten that he was by his memories.

Cloud woke up, a perplexed look on his face.

&#8220;Hey, Cloud. Do you love Marlene?&#8221;

&#8220;Yeah. But sometimes I don&#8217;t know how to approach her.&#8221;

&#8220;Even though we&#8217;ve been together for some time?&#8221;

&#8220;Maybe that just isn&#8217;t enough.&#8221;

&#8220;Even we aren&#8217;t enough for you?&#8221;

Cloud didn&#8217;t answer.
I absolutely love the shift to Marlene, and the way Cloud replies. To me when I first read this, it was obvious that he wasn't answering about Marlene, but about Tifa herself. A subtle way for Cloud to reply with honesty to Tifa's first question without being embarrassed because duh, it's supposed to be about Marlene and not Tifa.

And I think Tifa picks it up too because she switches from "Marlene" to "we".

Also, I think it was answered in the compilation, but might as well point it out: it's not that they're not enough for Cloud, it's that they are too much blessings for him to handle when he's being scared of losing them.

&#8220;Sorry for asking some strange things.&#8221;

&#8220;Don&#8217;t apologize. It&#8217;s my problem.&#8221;

Cloud closed his eyes.

&#8220;Let&#8217;s work hard together.&#8221;

Tifa waited for his answer, though she couldn&#8217;t hear it even if she waited until the morning.
I don't know if it's been picked up, but Cloud's line "don't apologize. It's my problem." is actually a very weird way to reply to this whole dialogue, and makes only sense when you know his feelings through AC/C: it's himself who is the problem because it's himself who is feeling guilty and wants to be forgiven. Meaning that things would be different if he could be forgiven - which he is in AC/C, showing with the ending, if that was not enough, that yes, things are now a little different in 7th Heaven after AC/C.

And even though Tifa wants to help him and be part of his strength ("let's work hard together"), he can't answer because it's something he doesn't want to burden her with (choosing the wrong way to deal with it). That's actually what the last line means, even if it's very messy - no matter how long she waits for his reply, he wouldn't tell her.

Maybe because he fell asleep again - unlikely - or because he knows that telling her he doesn't want her help would hurt her.
 

Zee

&#5465;(&#8640;&#8248;&#8636;&#8246;)&#5463;
AKA
Zee
#29
Sam Winchester said:
There's such thing as someone who is more than a friend, but less than a lover... and that's how I see Aerith to Cloud.
But isn't that the exact phrase they use to describe Tifa's relationship to Cloud? More than friends, less than lovers, nakama, all phrases that indicate a strong bond but stop just short of romance.

As for whether or not he had romantic feelings for her, I think he might have. I just don't think they were together long enough for him to really realize it.
That's sorta how I see it. The fact that he regards her so highly even in AC speak a lot of how much she got to him despite the ten inch layer of crap surrounding him, but in terms of just FF7 I think it's one of those things where you don't really realize how you feel about someone until it's too late.

Also I don't buy that Cloud and Tifa had this ~special bond since childhood. tbh I always felt like that was missing the point entirely. Neither one of them really knew each other as children (a fact which they both seem to agree with), and the small glimpses they got had them both idealizing each other: Cloud seeing Tifa as this untouchable popular girl, and Tifa seeing Cloud as her savior. And then in adulthood, having these illusions of the other shattered and realizing they were both pretty messed up people but ended up falling for each other despite that. So I saw Cloud/Tifa as more of a subversion to the childhood love trope than being played straight.

and dat's my 100% serious opinion on the matter
 
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
#30
But isn't that the exact phrase they use to describe Tifa's relationship to Cloud? More than friends, less than lovers, nakama, all phrases that indicate a strong bond but stop just short of romance.
"More than friends less than lovers" was a magazine speculation. And nakama is a word that truly depends on context. Technically Sephiroth and Cloud were nakama in Duodecim. Obviously they're enemies but still nakama until Cloud betrayed the group.

Nakama doesn't exclude romance either. I could say Rob and my three cats are my nakama. Doesn't mean I don't love Rob romantically.

EDIT
BTW Zee, nice to finally see a serious opinion from you on the matter :monster:
 
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AKA
Noctis
#31
I believe that Cloud and Tifa have a romantic relationship though, so it's not the same to me. x'D I think based on FFVII alone that yeah, there's speculation but with everything else that's out now? Nah.

True, we find out what really happened in the past, but that doesn't mean they didn't like one another/crush on one another. I'm just saying, their fondness of one another started at a young age and that grew as they were reunited and journeyed together. Also, the promise they made back them is still important to Cloud and it's important to Tifa too, so that's something.
 

Alessa Gillespie

a letter to my future self
AKA
Sansa Stark, Sweet Bro, Feferi, tentacleTherapist, Nin, Aki, Catwoman, Shinjiro Aragaki, Terezi, Princess Bubblegum
#32
I feel that no matter who Cloud ended up with there would have been problems. Obviously we've seen the problems he has had with Tifa, but if he ended up with Aerith there would have still been problems because Aerith has a problem when it comes to dealing with the problems of others. And given Cloud's already existing problems, no matter who he got together with it would not have been smooth sailing or anything.

Which is totally unrelated to basically everything but that's my .02. :B
 
AKA
Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
#33
I feel that no matter who Cloud ended up with there would have been problems. Obviously we've seen the problems he has had with Tifa, but if he ended up with Aerith there would have still been problems because Aerith has a problem when it comes to dealing with the problems of others. And given Cloud's already existing problems, no matter who he got together with it would not have been smooth sailing or anything.

Which is totally unrelated to basically everything but that's my .02. :B
Yeah I kinda always felt that if Cloud and Aerith ever really did get together, their relationship wouldn't last very long. It'd have been a very fleeting romance imo.

Of course I never really felt like Cloud cared about Aerith like that. Just my opinion.
 
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Eerie

Fire and Blood
#34
Isn't what Nojima tried to say once? That if they did end up together, there would have been problems too - I sorta see this as a reply to those who wonder about how a romance between the two would have gone, since well... we obviously can't know, while we know Cloud and Tifa had problems.

It's also part of how he sees marriage I think X'D Somehow, two people that love each other will always have to make some concessions and "work" so the relationship can work?
 

Zee

&#5465;(&#8640;&#8248;&#8636;&#8246;)&#5463;
AKA
Zee
#35
Being in a relationship with Cloud is bound to have baggage regardless of who it is. iirc the quote Eerie is referring to suggested her weird Cetra crap would have become an obstacle (which would have been a far more interesting subject to broach than rehashing Cloud & Tifa's communication problems in AC just imo).

Que said:
Nakama doesn't exclude romance either. I could say Rob and my three cats are my nakama. Doesn't mean I don't love Rob romantically.
It's still a decidedly nonromantic word to use to summarize their relationship, tho. But I do find it accurate.

Sam Winnebago said:
True, we find out what really happened in the past, but that doesn't mean they didn't like one another/crush on one another. I'm just saying, their fondness of one another started at a young age and that grew as they were reunited and journeyed together. Also, the promise they made back them is still important to Cloud and it's important to Tifa too, so that's something.
I don't disagree. :monster: I always thought their childhood crush was like that typical high school "girl who got away" thing: he never thought he'd have a chance, time passed, they finally meet back up and end up liking each other.

But I just don't think their childhood gives Tifa a huge one up on Aeris in terms of developing feelings (or a relationship) with Cloud; Tifa had a crush as a foundation but just had longer to develop and act on her feelings.
 

DrakeClawfang

The Wanderer of Time
#36
I feel that no matter who Cloud ended up with there would have been problems.
Agreed. He ends up with Tifa, he's gotta deal with the risk of concussions and head trauma every night with her boobs bouncing all over the place as he's thrusting. Ends up with Aerith, he's a necrophiliac, not to mention sooner or later decomposition's gonna set in and then it's gonna stink.
 
AKA
The Engineer
#37
But I just don't think their childhood gives Tifa a huge one up on Aeris in terms of developing feelings (or a relationship) with Cloud; Tifa had a crush as a foundation but just had longer to develop and act on her feelings.
Except that the Lifestream sequence where Tifa helps Cloud sort out his memory couldn't have happened if it had been Aerith helping Cloud instead of Tifa.

While it is true that Tifa and Cloud didn't know eachother that well as children, that is a huge one up because everybody who would know Cloud better then Tifa (Cloud's mom, maybe Zack) are all dead. The only person who can confirm wheather Cloud's childhood memories are real is Tifa.
 

Alessa Gillespie

a letter to my future self
AKA
Sansa Stark, Sweet Bro, Feferi, tentacleTherapist, Nin, Aki, Catwoman, Shinjiro Aragaki, Terezi, Princess Bubblegum
#38
Except that the Lifestream sequence where Tifa helps Cloud sort out his memory couldn't have happened if it had been Aerith helping Cloud instead of Tifa.

While it is true that Tifa and Cloud didn't know eachother that well as children, that is a huge one up because everybody who would know Cloud better then Tifa (Cloud's mom, maybe Zack) are all dead. The only person who can confirm wheather Cloud's childhood memories are real is Tifa.
But they both say they didn't know each other really well, she was just able to confirm 'Yes you are Cloud from Nibelheim' and the promise scene. Nothing really points to them being super besty best friends in the game at all.
 
AKA
Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
#39
EDIT
BTW Zee, nice to finally see a serious opinion from you on the matter :monster:
Didn't see this until now. None of this shit woman. What part of "not using past against people" isn't understood?

Last chance. Next time it's a ban.
 

The Mad King

Harbinger of Darkness
AKA
Lord Noctis, Caius Ballad, Midnight Rider of War, Quilge Opie
#40
Nothing indicates they were good friends before the well scene anyway. Its possible they hung out more between the night he made that promise and when he left for SOLDIER.
 
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
#41
Didn't see this until now. None of this shit woman. What part of "not using past against people" isn't understood?

Last chance. Next time it's a ban.
Okay I want to clear this up even if I get a ban. I was complimenting her because it was nice to finally hear her opinion on the matter when normally she doesn't post as such. It wasn't intended to be an insult of any kind and I find it ridiculous that it was taken as such.

Zee, thank you for posting your opinion on the matter. I was happy to read it. You may ban me now if you wish.
 

Marle

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Ava, Spike Spiegel, Stella Nox Fleuret, Altair Ibn-La'Ahad, Princess Zelda, Alice, Raven Roth, Faye Valentine, Tifa Lockhart, Khal Drogo
#42
I believe that Tifa has a lot of insecurities. She feels jealous of Aerith at one point because she's more open with her feelings and it's possible a sudden confirmation like having sex with Cloud followed by the two of them moving in together would have made her uncomfortable. Basically, assuming that they did that, Tifa could still be worried.

I dunno, it seems like a normal girlfriend thing to me to have a girl questioning her boyfriend whether or not he loves her, even moreso after they have been having arguments or he's been distant or whatever. But Cloud is still blocked from saying things given his answer of 'I don't know how to approach her' to asking if he loves Marlene. Cloud is seriously socially stunted and more than likely emotionally stunted, and this shows frequently in his interactions with people in the family, except possibly Denzel.

So maybe Cloud has some sort of 'ew girls have cooties' issue that I don't want to touch with a ten foot pole.

I want to thank this post more than once. That is exactly how I saw the whole CoT scene and you've put it perfectly.

As for the childhood friends argument, I don't believe they were attached at the hip or anything, but I also tire of the whole 'Tifa bullied Cloud as a kid' argument. It's sort of...untrue. :shifty:

Either way, I love the dynamics of this pairing. Even if they weren't 'friends' (as per definition of the player), it was entertaining to see how Cloud longed for her when he was young while she was oblivious, how he vowed to protect her and then, Tifa ends up wanting him while he's oblivious and if anything, saves his ass all the time. :monster:

Also, I always saw the LS as the two working together to piece his memories back. It showed how much they relied on one another, to me. Because, parts of Tifa's memory were fuzzy and so were Cloud's. But, by sorting through everything with help from one another, eventually, they're able to reveal the truth and in turn, discover the real Cloud.

It's still a decidedly nonromantic word to use to summarize their relationship, tho. But I do find it accurate.
I c wat u did thar. :awesome:
 
AKA
Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
#43
Okay I want to clear this up even if I get a ban. I was complimenting her because it was nice to finally hear her opinion on the matter when normally she doesn't post as such. It wasn't intended to be an insult of any kind and I find it ridiculous that it was taken as such.
IT DOESN'T MATTER. It can be taken as such, AND IT WAS by more than one person. Get over it. Stay on task.

Also, for the record I've seen Zee give her actual opinion often enough to see that such a comment was never justified.

Next time you have a problem with something a staff member does, use a pm or a visitor message.

Shit's ridiculous.
 

I Am Not Me

The Mean Clack
AKA
Mei, Koibito, Stalker, Little Dude, Nami
#44
Just going to comment on this. :monster:

But I just don't think their childhood gives Tifa a huge one up on Aeris in terms of developing feelings (or a relationship) with Cloud; Tifa had a crush as a foundation but just had longer to develop and act on her feelings.
I feel the opposite though. Because of this childhood, they have a foundation. When they were young, they did like each other. Cloud was in love with her, and it was implied that Tifa did have a crush on him too, or at least was curious about him. This creates the foundation for an invisible bond that Cloud and Aerith don't have. Once upon a time, Cloud and Tifa liked each other, whether or not they knew it. Cloud had Tifa in his thoughts, and if it weren't for Jenova muddling him, she would stay in it. The Lifestream sequence proves that Tifa has always been in his mind from the start. It all started in their childhood, so yes, Tifa already has this huge one up on Aerith.

Plus, they have that promise, which has been referred to time and time again anywhere and everywhere. :monster:

Aerith, on the other hand, was really only interested in Cloud because of his entrance in her life--very similar to Zack. Compared to Tifa's romance starting from childhood, to Aerith's romance starting from another guy... well. :monster: Aerith herself admitted this in an offhanded way by saying how she would like to meet the real Cloud in the Gold Saucer date. Aerith never really truly loved Cloud until the moment she realized he wasn't Zack. I'm not sure exactly when she discovered this, but it's obvious that she did because she said that during their date.

So... I don't know what I'm talking about now, but that's my opinion on the matter.

[COLOR=Dark Blue]Nothing indicates they were good friends before the well scene anyway. Its possible they hung out more between the night he made that promise and when he left for SOLDIER. [/COLOR]
I'm not entirely sure now, but didn't Cloud leave the day after or something? :shifty:
 
#45
I'm not entirely sure now, but didn't Cloud leave the day after or something?
It seems to be one of those common misconceptions but I think by the wording people have gathered it was a couple months off before he actually left. Don't remember the exact timing myself.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
#46
Yes, apparently the well scene happens during winter, and Cloud leaves in spring.

Also, I do feel that the relationships between Cloud and Aerith and Cloud and Tifa are really different and not in the sense of one is platonic vs the other is romantic - it's a shortcut I wouldn't take myself - but rather the two dynamics are totally different.

It's probably due to the fact that the creators had very little time to develop Cloud/Aerith though, since she was gone shortly after they met up.

I'll think over it for a bit before posting more about this. I need to clear out my thoughts on the matter - things are a bit fuzzy.
 

Alessa Gillespie

a letter to my future self
AKA
Sansa Stark, Sweet Bro, Feferi, tentacleTherapist, Nin, Aki, Catwoman, Shinjiro Aragaki, Terezi, Princess Bubblegum
#47
Yes, apparently the well scene happens during winter, and Cloud leaves in spring.
Well, this is assuming that Nibelheim does not have cold springs at night. :awesome:
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
#48
Yes, apparently the well scene happens during winter, and Cloud leaves in spring.
Fall to Winter, to be exacting about our inexactitude.

Also, I do feel that the relationships between Cloud and Aerith and Cloud and Tifa are really different and not in the sense of one is platonic vs the other is romantic - it's a shortcut I wouldn't take myself - but rather the two dynamics are totally different.
Part of it is that I think Cloud and Aerith are actually really damn similar people with similar fears (hidden different ways) and arcs (manifested different ways) and Tifa actually bounces off the both of them very well.

It's probably due to the fact that the creators had very little time to develop Cloud/Aerith though, since she was gone shortly after they met up.
Well, narrative time and 'Real' time aren't always the same. You can really really devote a lot of time to events that seem to take more time than they actually occur in, and vice versa.

Well, this is assuming that Nibelheim does not have cold springs at night. :awesome:
The line remarks that it's starting to get chilly, and that Cloud is leaving 'next spring.'
If they do get chilly springs, we have an entire YEAR for shit and giggles to happen in in the interim.

Also, cold nights in spring, not cold springs at night, though the idea of a naturally (or supernaturally, if they only come out at night) forming pool where heat it whisked away from your body at a much more efficient rate than natural water cooling is an intriguing concept.

As for Cloud's issues in the novellas and the movie- I still think the best way to sum it up is that it's not that Cloud feels family isn't enough for him, but rather he thinks they are far more than he ever deserves, and with his guilt complex, them making him so happy, and his mind being led to wonder what could go wrong, he mistakenly latches on to the idea that he needs to both make amends for his deeds to deserve his family, but also he might feel that he needs to protect them from misfortune by keeping them at arm's length at times so that an unfortunate happenstance does not befall them as a way of the universe cutting his happiness down to a more deserved level.

Cloud is exactly the sort of guy to give the 'I'd only slow you down' speech in a disaster movie.
 

Alessa Gillespie

a letter to my future self
AKA
Sansa Stark, Sweet Bro, Feferi, tentacleTherapist, Nin, Aki, Catwoman, Shinjiro Aragaki, Terezi, Princess Bubblegum
#49
The line remarks that it's starting to get chilly, and that Cloud is leaving 'next spring.'
If they do get chilly springs, we have an entire YEAR for shit and giggles to happen in in the interim.

Also, cold nights in spring, not cold springs at night, though the idea of a naturally (or supernaturally, if they only come out at night) forming pool where heat it whisked away from your body at a much more efficient rate than natural water cooling is an intriguing concept.
But the fact that they both state that they 'weren't that close' doesn't imply they suddenly became best friends and the fact there were no other important implications that they were at least somewhat close friends was never implied in the Lifestream. Cloud was interested in Tifa from a young age and her dad assumed that Cloud had something to do with Tifa's accident as a child, so I sincerely doubt he'd let go of that just because they decided to make a promise to one another.

Also do we really need to discuss how I put it semantically? Does that actually have anything to do with the argument in the least?
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
#50
But the fact that they both state that they 'weren't that close' doesn't imply they suddenly became best friends and the fact there were no other important implications that they were at least somewhat close friends was never implied in the Lifestream. Cloud was interested in Tifa from a young age and her dad assumed that Cloud had something to do with Tifa's accident as a child, so I sincerely doubt he'd let go of that just because they decided to make a promise to one another.
None of which I was commenting on. I just wanted to note that we've figure out that there is a time gap in which things could have possibly happened, not enough to make them 'that close,' perhaps, but certainly enough for them to have become legitimate friends.

Also do we really need to discuss how I put it semantically? Does that actually have anything to do with the argument in the least?
No, but it's not semantics. It's grammar. And the amusing metaphysical concept that the grammar slip made me think of.
 
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