The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Alessa Gillespie]

None of which I was commenting on. I just wanted to note that we've figure out that there is a time gap in which things could have possibly happened, not enough to make them 'that close,' perhaps, but certainly enough for them to have become legitimate friends.

A little odd, then, that Tifa would never say 'I knew you Cloud, we were friends', just that they weren't very close. I agree with Ava's assessment of the story being something like Cloud-->Tifa in his early life and when he grew up it became Tifa-->Cloud, but even though they weren't particularly close they grew to have mutual feelings for each other in the end.

No, but it's not semantics. It's grammar. And the amusing metaphysical concept that the grammar slip made me think of.

o okey

 

[Ryushikaze]

A little odd, then, that Tifa would never say 'I knew you Cloud, we were friends', just that they weren't very close.

She does say "I always thought we were friends, but I guess we weren't that close," which is rather similar, though it implies a bit of doubt on Tifa's part.

I agree with Ava's assessment of the story being something like Cloud-->Tifa in his early life and when he grew up it became Tifa-->Cloud, but even though they weren't particularly close they grew to have mutual feelings for each other in the end.

I think it was Tifa-> Cloud as well from early on, at least as of her being 13 (She thought he was cute) but apart from that, yes.

And the further discussion of the Nibelheim Cold Spring Tourist attraction will have to be had in another thread.

 

[Max Payne]

Also do we really need to discuss how I put it semantically? Does that actually have anything to do with the argument in the least?

No, we don't. I think it's entirely unnecessary and a little rude.

Come on man.

 

[EurAsianGirl]

Wow....I feel kind of bad now....Who would of thought my comments on the previous thread would generate so much Whatthefuckery and bashing that you felt you needed to open up a new thread.... I really feel its my fault, sorry about that^^;

Anyways as for the topic itself....I just want to say WORD on everything Maria said on page 2, and her views are basically my views as well.

Also don't you think its kind of debasing the real relationship Cloud and Aeris had with each other to include romance in it?? I mean not every relationship *has* to be romantic, in fact some of the more meaningful relationships are those that have no romance involved at all and are just dear friends or family type relationships. Also if you think about it, Cloud had a much more stable relationship with Aeris compared to Tifa, probably because of the fact NO feelings of romance were involved. *Shrugs* I don't know I just feel that its demeaning to Cloud and Aeris's real relationship to force romance into it, I mean if anything Aeris was more like Cloud's own personal guardien angel or like a mother to him. Which is a much more beautiful role I feel than that of lover is.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Also don't you think its kind of debasing the real relationship Cloud and Aeris had with each other to include romance in it??

Couldn't you technically say the same thing about Tifa and Cloud?

 

[Marle]

Can't really say there was no romance at all. Aerith does say she is in love with Cloud. Which makes sense. Because in the game, she sure as heck did flirt quite a bit. I think that would count as romantic interest.

Whether Cloud reciprocated these romantic feelings is what the debate has been about for years.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Also if you think about it, Cloud had a much more stable relationship with Aeris compared to Tifa, probably because of the fact NO feelings of romance were involved.

Aerith loves Cloud. How can you say there are no romantic feelings involved? Are you meaning from Cloud's POV? Please clarify for me, if you would.

 

[Vendel]

Aerith loves Cloud. How can you say there are no romantic feelings involved? Are you meaning from Cloud's POV? Please clarify for me, if you would.

Unfortunately for Aerith she was only loving a shadow. Then again she is the tragic figure of FFVII.

Luckily for her though she is reunited with Zack before they both completely diffuse into the lifestream.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Unfortunately for Aerith she was only loving a shadow. Then again she is the tragic figure of FFVII.

Luckily for her though she is reunited with Zack before they both completely diffuse into the lifestream.

I would disagree in this. Initially, yes, Aerith fell for Cloud because he was a reminder of Zack, but while traveling she fell in love with Cloud...NOT the real Cloud, and for me that's the distinction. She was not in love with Zack!Cloud because Cloud was too different from Zack for that to be the case, and she wasn't in love with Real!Cloud, for those very reasons. Game-Cloud is a what-the-fuckery of mixed emotions and a jumble of misplaced memories. Aerith, I think, loved what Cloud could have been to her, and loved what she did know of him--accurate or not.

The distinction for me is that yes, Cloud cared for Aerith, very much. I don't believe he harbored romantic interest in her. I can see why some may feel he was crushing on her, or flirting, but as I said before he was too much of a wtf bat-shit crazy person to fully understand who he was, much less entertain a love interest. Tifa is the exception to this because the interest was there before he got all mind-jumbled. Although I think his inability to address it or her properly is testimony to how unsure he was even when he was feigning being 'cock of the walk'. His feelings for Tifa do become very clear as the game progresses, and ultimately his true self emerges, and those feelings are unarguable at that point.

Clerith is a very sweet love story, but it's just not supported by canon.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Unfortunately for Aerith she was only loving a shadow. Then again she is the tragic figure of FFVII.

Luckily for her though she is reunited with Zack before they both completely diffuse into the lifestream.

Except she doesn't call Zack her love now does she? In her own story she gives that role to Cloud. Even if it's one-sided, there is still most definitely love there.

 

[EurAsianGirl]

Couldn't you technically say the same thing about Tifa and Cloud?

Except....Tifa and Cloud never really had anything besides a romantic relationship, since you know they were never really real friends or anything...hell they barely knew each other, they just had crushes on each other....So for them their whole relationship was based on romantic feelings.

As for the whole, "Aeris loved Cloud debate" Hmm well that one is a bit confusing because all evidence points to that the one Aeris always truly loved was Zack and the only source that confirms that Aeris loved Cloud in that way was Maiden. (And that's only if you consider Maiden to be canon ) Even if you do consider Maiden to be canon, Aeris admits herself in Maiden that she didn't really know Cloud at all, so how could she love him I mean she never got to know the real him and when she finally wanted to know the real him and figured out something was wrong with him, she kicks the bucket.

Honestly even if you take Maiden into account, I think the so called "love" that Aeris felt for Cloud was purely platonic as well from her end. I honestly feel that she saw him as a lost soul and child who she wanted to help heal. She probably saw him more as like a little brother or a son and her as his guardien than as a lover.

Also I think Aeris just flirted with him alot in the game because of both the Zack she saw in him and because thats just her personality in general. She's very flirty and fun-loving. A really out-there type of girl.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

As for the whole, "Aeris loved Cloud debate" Hmm well that one is a bit confusing because all evidence points to that the one Aeris always truly loved was Zack and the only source that confirms that Aeris loved Cloud in that way was Maiden. (And that's only if you consider Maiden to be canon ) Even if you do consider Maiden to be canon, Aeris admits herself in Maiden that she didn't really know Cloud at all, so how could she love him I mean she never got to know the real him and when she finally wanted to know the real him and figured out something was wrong with him, she kicks the bucket.

Honestly even if you take Maiden into account, I think the so called "love" that Aeris felt for Cloud was purely platonic as well from her end. I honestly feel that she saw him as a lost soul and child who she wanted to help heal. She probably saw him more as like a little brother or a son and her as his guardien than as a lover.

Also I think Aeris just flirted with him alot in the game because of both the Zack she saw in him and because thats just her personality in general. She's very flirty and fun-loving. A really out-there type of girl.

Okay, first, read Case of Lifestream: White, which is from the point of view of Aerith. She explicitly states that she sees Cloud as her (infamous word time!) koibito.

CoLW is most definitively canon and she still says that she loves Cloud in it. This is just fact.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Except....Tifa and Cloud never really had anything besides a romantic relationship, since you know they were never really real friends or anything

Wrong. They were never best-friends-forever but they were and are most certainly friends. Tifa happens to be his dearest friend. Being friends doesn't negate romantic interest, that's kind of a ridiculous assumption. You have to be friends with someone to have a sustainable relationship. That's how it works.

...hell they barely knew each other, they just had crushes on each other....

Granted, their friendship wasn't exchanging lockets, but they did know each other. Well enough, in fact, for Tifa to realize that something was wrong with Cloud at the train station, and even still as he recovered and was a member of Avalanche. Cloud crushed on Tifa. Her feelings were still pretty tangled up in her Mom dying, tumble down a mountain, two week coma...etc. I would say that Cloud speaking to her at the well sparked her interest, and it became a crush, but I wouldn't go so far as to claim they both harbored secret feelings for one another as children.

So for them their whole relationship was based on romantic feelings.

Their relationship is complicated, to say the least, and yes, for Cloud, his attachment to Tifa was based in romantic interest, but to claim that's the basis for their entire relationship is just plain false.

As for the whole, "Aeris loved Cloud debate" Hmm well that one is a bit confusing because all evidence points to that the one Aeris always truly loved was Zack and the only source that confirms that Aeris loved Cloud in that way was Maiden. (And that's only if you consider Maiden to be canon )

CoLW does a pretty good job of indicating that Aerith had romantic feelings for Cloud and as already pointed out, CoLW is canon.

Even if you do consider Maiden to be canon, Aeris admits herself in Maiden that she didn't really know Cloud at all, so how could she love him I mean she never got to know the real him and when she finally wanted to know the real him and figured out something was wrong with him, she kicks the bucket.

You can go back one page and read my earlier comment on this, because I think it addresses it fairly well.

Honestly even if you take Maiden into account,

I don't.

I think the so called "love" that Aeris felt for Cloud was purely platonic as well from her end. I honestly feel that she saw him as a lost soul and child who she wanted to help heal. She probably saw him more as like a little brother or a son and her as his guardien than as a lover.

A purely platonic love that had her asking him for dates and what type of woman he preferred...?

Also I think Aeris just flirted with him alot in the game because of both the Zack she saw in him and because thats just her personality in general. She's very flirty and fun-loving. A really out-there type of girl.

As fun-loving as she appeared, she wasn't exactly overly flirty with everyone. She was specifically attached to Cloud, so I doubt she's a 'flirt' by nature. Her reasons for flirting and being interested may be related to Zack (at least initially) but to imply 'oh, she's just a flirt' when the only person we see her show romantic interest in IS Cloud, well, that doesn't make a lot of sense now, does it.

There is absolutely nothing that indicates Aerith did not love Cloud romantically. The debate may be on why, how much, and did she love the "real" Cloud, but the fact remains that yes, Aerith loved the Cloud she knew. For whatever reason. Did he love her back? No, I don't believe he did--at least not like she hoped he would. Because he loves Tifa. Aerith loving Cloud changes nothing about that.

 

[Marle]

I'd address the points here but FHS did a pretty darn awesome job already.

I will comment on one thing, though.

Except....Tifa and Cloud never really had anything besides a romantic relationship, since you know they were never really real friends or anything...hell they barely knew each other, they just had crushes on each other....So for them their whole relationship was based on romantic feelings.

Something I adore about the Cloud and Tifa pairing has always been the fact that they're friends AND lovers. Unlike many of the other FF canon couples, these two know each other well, help each other through tough times and stick out the worst for one another. Their romance is solidified by their friendship and their strong devotion to each other. We don't see Tifa and Cloud kiss, like Squall and Rinoa do or Tidus and Yuna do. We don't see them hug. We don't see them telling each other about their love.

What we do see is this exchange of emotions without words. Without obvious, in-your-face evidence like making out under water or on the balcony. Sure Cloud had a crush on Tifa and Tifa probably crushed on him. But it didn't grow to become love until their friendship grew and they experienced all these hardships together.

Tifa isn't just Cloud's girlfriend. Or romantic interest. She's his best friend; the only woman who knows him best and will be there for him regardless of the shit he pulls. The only woman who stuck it out when he would just up and leave her without an explanation as to why. A lover would have been offended. A friend would meet it with patience. A combination of both, which is what Tifa is to Cloud and vice versa, knows there's more to the story because she knows him too well.

A romantic bond is made so much stronger through the means of a good friendship. Which is exactly what distinguishes these two and makes them my OTP from all the other FF pairings. It might make them boring, but it also makes them realistic and relatable. That's why I probably have an issue with the idea that they are only lovers and not friends. That concept blends them into the Squall/Rinoa and Yuna/Tidus class which, in my mind, makes them truly boring. It just simply isn't true.

Anyways, I've rambled on long enough. Hopefully I made some sort of sense out of all this.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Well put, both of you. And, Ava, that's probably the best assessment I've ever seen of their relationship.

 

[Celes Chere]

I still believe in Zerith.

[insert gif here]

While I still believe that Zack x Aerith is what has truly been intended in the game/movie/ultimanias and so on, I also think that Aerith had a genuine interest in Cloud, and grew to truly care about him as a person. She saw Zack initially, and then realized that things were different and had the desire to meet the real him. And yeah my views on this matter have changed on this a bit since COLW, so I do think Aerith loved Cloud. Basically this:

The debate may be on why, how much, and did she love the "real" Cloud, but the fact remains that yes, Aerith loved the Cloud she knew. For whatever reason.

There are so many speculations(?) with Zack and Cloud when it comes to Aerith/her feelings... Without COLW getting in the way, I'd believe 100 percent that Aerith still loved Zack this whole time.

 

[EurAsianGirl]

Wrong. They were never best-friends-forever but they were and are most certainly friends. Tifa happens to be his dearest friend. Being friends doesn't negate romantic interest, that's kind of a ridiculous assumption. You have to be friends with someone to have a sustainable relationship. That's how it works.



Granted, their friendship wasn't exchanging lockets, but they did know each other. Well enough, in fact, for Tifa to realize that something was wrong with Cloud at the train station, and even still as he recovered and was a member of Avalanche. Cloud crushed on Tifa. Her feelings were still pretty tangled up in her Mom dying, tumble down a mountain, two week coma...etc. I would say that Cloud speaking to her at the well sparked her interest, and it became a crush, but I wouldn't go so far as to claim they both harbored secret feelings for one another as children.



Their relationship is complicated, to say the least, and yes, for Cloud, his attachment to Tifa was based in romantic interest, but to claim that's the basis for their entire relationship is just plain false.



CoLW does a pretty good job of indicating that Aerith had romantic feelings for Cloud and as already pointed out, CoLW is canon.



You can go back one page and read my earlier comment on this, because I think it addresses it fairly well.

I don't.



A purely platonic love that had her asking him for dates and what type of woman he preferred...?



As fun-loving as she appeared, she wasn't exactly overly flirty with everyone. She was specifically attached to Cloud, so I doubt she's a 'flirt' by nature. Her reasons for flirting and being interested may be related to Zack (at least initially) but to imply 'oh, she's just a flirt' when the only person we see her show romantic interest in IS Cloud, well, that doesn't make a lot of sense now, does it.

There is absolutely nothing that indicates Aerith did not love Cloud romantically. The debate may be on why, how much, and did she love the "real" Cloud, but the fact remains that yes, Aerith loved the Cloud she knew. For whatever reason. Did he love her back? No, I don't believe he did--at least not like she hoped he would. Because he loves Tifa. Aerith loving Cloud changes nothing about that.

How could they have known each other well when they both acknowledge in the game itself that they didn't know each other all that well back in Nibelheim. Tifa was the only one who knew Cloud's past because obviously she had witnessed all the events that went on in Nibelheim concerning Cloud, but she never really got close to him until after he made that promise to her.

Also while of course Cloud's feelings for Tifa were probably stronger at first, Tifa did seem to be crushing on Cloud as well when she said that she thought "he was cute."

Now granted they did truly become friends after Cloud's promise to her, but shortly after that Cloud went into his loco, Jenova experimented, Zackified mode and when they met up again in Midgar their friendship became kind of What the fuck because they had just started becoming friends back in Nibelheim and now all of a sudden Cloud is acting like a totally different person So really they were never even truly friends on their journey, seeing as how Cloud was not himself.

I don't know...It's weird the whole "friendship" thing between Cloud and Tifa lol.

As for the "Aeris loving Cloud thing...." Well golly me, I DID forget about COLW.... which I now went back to read and well you guys were right. However we all know that Square tends to retcon Final Fantasy 7 alot so I don't really put much validity in their declaration that Aeris was in love with Cloud, when in fact she didn't even know the real him.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

How could they have known each other well when they both acknowledge in the game itself that they didn't know each other all that well back in Nibelheim.

Acknowledging that they weren't 'that close' as children doesn't negate the fact that they were budding friends; friends that developed into true, close friends as the game itself progressed.

Tifa was the only one who knew Cloud's past because obviously she had witnessed all the events that went on in Nibelheim concerning Cloud, but she never really got close to him until after he made that promise to her.

A promise made in fall/winter and Cloud didn't leave until Spring. Giving ample opportunity to plant the seeds of friendship.

Also while of course Cloud's feelings for Tifa were probably stronger at first, Tifa did seem to be crushing on Cloud as well when she said that she thought "he was cute."

She also thinks chocobo chicks are cute. Point? No one is denying that their affection is romantic. Cloti is canon. But to say it's romantic because they weren't friends makes no sense. At all.

Now granted they did truly become friends after Cloud's promise to her, but shortly after that Cloud went into his loco, Jenova experimented, Zackified mode and when they met up again in Midgar their friendship became kind of What the fuck because they had just started becoming friends back in Nibelheim and now all of a sudden Cloud is acting like a totally different person So really they were never even truly friends on their journey, seeing as how Cloud was not himself.

This negating any argument you could possibly have that Aerith was his 'friend'. By that standard Cloud could have no friends because he was a wtf basket case and not himself. By that logic any romance would be pointless as well. You can't have it both ways.

I don't know...It's weird the whole "friendship" thing between Cloud and Tifa lol.

It's weird to be friends with your lover?

As for the "Aeris loving Cloud thing...." Well golly me, I DID forget about COLW.... which I now went back to read and well you guys were right. However we all know that Square tends to retcon Final Fantasy 7 alot so I don't really put much validity in their declaration that Aeris was in love with Cloud, when in fact she didn't even know the real him.

Well, gosh-oh-golly-gee, you can't ignore canon in favor of opinion on the off chance SE may retcon something sooner or later. Canon is canon. Period.

 

[Max Payne]

Tone it down people.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

There are so many speculations(?) with Zack and Cloud when it comes to Aerith/her feelings... Without COLW getting in the way, I'd believe 100 percent that Aerith still loved Zack this whole time.

I'm sure she still has/had feelings for Zack but considering that he was unable to talk to her for 5 years, she was pretty much forced to let him go. I mean generally, after a while you'd just get the feeling the other person didn't care about you and you'd stop caring about them in return. Her wanting to move on with Cloud was probably part of the healing process since it probably left a rather ragged scar on her heart given how Elmyra talks about it.

 

[Celes Chere]

I'm sure she still has/had feelings for Zack but considering that he was unable to talk to her for 5 years, she was pretty much forced to let him go. I mean generally, after a while you'd just get the feeling the other person didn't care about you and you'd stop caring about them in return. Her wanting to move on with Cloud was probably part of the healing process since it probably left a rather ragged scar on her heart given how Elmyra talks about it.

Well, I believe that Aerith knew that Zack died at the end of Crisis Core. I think it's interesting that she still wears his ribbon, and the color pink throughout well... forever. Keeping her promise to him that she'd always wear it. x'D So I always assumed that in her heart, she kept on loving Zack and Cloud was like Vendel said, a mirror. (at least at the start) I think her moving on was not letting go of Zack in the way that, she fell out of love... I think it was her realizing that he's never coming back. He's dead. I know some people here get offended when I say Aerith went through a denial stage, but I truly think it seemed that way in FFVII. It doesn't make her crazy, it doesn't make her stupid, it makes her HUMAN.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Well, I believe that Aerith knew that Zack died at the end of Crisis Core. I think it's interesting that she still wears his ribbon, and the color pink throughout well... forever. Keeping her promise to him that she'd always wear it. x'D So I always assumed that in her heart, she kept on loving Zack and Cloud was like Vendel said, a mirror. (at least at the start) I think her moving on was not letting go of Zack in the way that, she fell out of love... I think it was her realizing that he's never coming back. He's dead. I know some people here get offended when I say Aerith went through a denial stage, but I truly think it seemed that way in FFVII. It doesn't make her crazy, it doesn't make her stupid, it makes her HUMAN.

I understand this, and I agree that she probably went through a denial stage but on the other hand she realized there were definite differences between Cloud and Zack and because of this she eventually accepted this and decided to move on to loving Cloud instead of continually dwelling on Zack. I think this is true no matter if you get her date or not, because it's not like she didn't think about the things she wanted to tell Cloud before she said them. I'd say even if you didn't get asked out by Aerith, she still decided she liked Cloud for Cloud and decided to continue pursuing him right until her death.

 

[Celes Chere]

I think it's pretty obvious she liked Cloud for who he was during the part of the game where she visits Cloud in his dreams if you don't get the date scene. There is no reason after that to go on thinking: "Well, she still is attracted to him because of Zack"

 

[Marle]

Now granted they did truly become friends after Cloud's promise to her, but shortly after that Cloud went into his loco, Jenova experimented, Zackified mode and when they met up again in Midgar their friendship became kind of What the fuck because they had just started becoming friends back in Nibelheim and now all of a sudden Cloud is acting like a totally different person So really they were never even truly friends on their journey, seeing as how Cloud was not himself.

But after the LS sequence, Cloud returns to himself again and their friendship is only made stronger afterwards. So yeah, I think they definitely became good friends during their journey. As a matter of fact, everyone in AVALANCHE became best friends on their journey. All their traumatic experiences and their share in a similar belief brought them closer together and unified them.

Plus, Cloud wasn't entirely not himself in disc one, otherwise Aerith would have never been able to pick up on the Cloud parts he presented. And therefore, that would negate any sort of relationship those two characters had, seeing as how Aerith dies before the real Cloud surfaces. I don't believe in that, so I don't like shunning disc one just because Cloud was a bit screwy in the memory department. :\

As much as I am a Zack/Aerith fan, I think it's possible that she loved Cloud more than him. However, I don't get why it's not possible for the girl to still be in love with Zack as well. Personally, I think she loved both men. It's only a matter of whom she loved more that's up for debate.

Aerith be a playa

 

[Celes Chere]

Aerith be a playa

The sad thing is some people actually believe this, and believe she is a bad character for it. ._.