30 minutes of brand new footage, & 100 changes to the original FFVII AC
- Thread starter Makoeyes987
- Start date
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Yeah, but Cloud didn't go out looking to get infected with super AIDs, now did he? 
And I'm sorry, but I'm not sure what previous experience Cloud had in FFVII that would give him the necessary coping skills, and crisis management that would allow him to perfectly deal with guilt, terminal illness, and fear of loss, all at once, when he just started living his life, after just coming out of fighting for a month and a half to save the world. RIGHT after having been a lab experiment with no real mind of his own. I'm just failing to see how that instantly gives him the coping skills to make it completely illogical and a failure on his part to make a mistake and crack temporarily when faced with the notion of him DYING and losing everything he's ever cared about.
Maybe your world view is that black and white and deterministic, but sadly, shit just happens and not everything works out perfectly.
And when I compared Cloud's situation in AC to Zidane, I was referring to their reactions, not the parallels of the actual situation. Both isolated themselves, both left behind two kids, and both rejected the women who were close to them at first before finally realizing their mistake and opening back up to them. That's the similarity. And regardless of Zidane's not lasting as long, there's a parallel that cannot be denied.
And I'm sorry, but I'm not sure what previous experience Cloud had in FFVII that would give him the necessary coping skills, and crisis management that would allow him to perfectly deal with guilt, terminal illness, and fear of loss, all at once, when he just started living his life, after just coming out of fighting for a month and a half to save the world. RIGHT after having been a lab experiment with no real mind of his own. I'm just failing to see how that instantly gives him the coping skills to make it completely illogical and a failure on his part to make a mistake and crack temporarily when faced with the notion of him DYING and losing everything he's ever cared about.
Maybe your world view is that black and white and deterministic, but sadly, shit just happens and not everything works out perfectly.
And when I compared Cloud's situation in AC to Zidane, I was referring to their reactions, not the parallels of the actual situation. Both isolated themselves, both left behind two kids, and both rejected the women who were close to them at first before finally realizing their mistake and opening back up to them. That's the similarity. And regardless of Zidane's not lasting as long, there's a parallel that cannot be denied.
Masamune
Fiat Lux
- AKA
- Masa
So?
And breathee.
Let's see. Well, Cloud had his reality stripped apart by Sephiroth, became a dribbling wreck, had his memories shoved together in a short space of time by his good lady, found out the world had a slim chance of survival, and still harboured the death of Aerith. Yet did he relent? No, he kept fighting against all odds. That is a pretty spectacular amount go through in one's life, and undoubtedly an experience one could call upon when dealing with future conflicts.
But according you to, what happened in FFVII is completely irrelevant after the game has past, which I find erroneous to say the very least.
The difference being Zidane had just been mind-screwed by Garland, lost all bearing of who he was, yet managed to snap out it all in double-quick fashion. Cloud sulked about, and when he did come home he tried to delegate his responsibilities, until he finally grew a pair. So you're comparison is about as flimsy as saying 'shit happened to both of them'.
Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
- AKA
- Tim, Ryu
Zidane had the bonus of a happy and well adjusted Childhood with the Tantalus troupe behind him, and he was by default an optimistic sort, as well as being largely extroverted and not prone to much introspective.
Cloud, on the other hand, is a man with deep seated psychological issues. He is very prone to self blame, holds himself to unreasonable standards, and worries excessively. He's also not had a whole lot in his life go right.
Cloud's issue in FF7 was that he needed to assert himself, he needed to find his confidence to overcome the imminent crisis. Cloud has had experience with combat and dealing with crises from his time in ShinRa, he knows how to react to all this. So Cloud gains the confidence to strive forward against adversity. And this is all well and good, but when you remove the adveristy, and recall that Cloud has a history of losing the good things in his life at any given moment, it only makes perfect sense that he becomes worried that he won't get to appreciate his new happiness, that it will be taken from him, so he begins withdrawing and trying to figure out why it would be, because Cloud is the type of person who doesn't instrinsically 'know' that it's okay to be happy. He thinks he needs to earn it, and he hasn't earned it in his own mind. Hence his being haunted by the spectre of his past failures (the wolf being the guilt he holds), and him trying to do right by Denzel as a form of penance. And he does try, he works, and he's happy, and then, just when he thinks he's deserving things, he gets Geostigma and his worry and guilt and fear of failure all come to a head and he heads off to face his death, protect his family from the fallout he expects will befall them, and find his forgiveness.
To illustrate this idea, take a look at the new ACC trailer, just before Denzel is attacked by the shadow creepers and Cloud saves him, he sees an image of Zack walking off to die superimposed over Denzel's image.
Cloud wants forgiveness from the dead because he feels beholden unto them for his failure. He thinks he's been given penance in the form of taking care of Denzel until Geostigma arrives, and he comes to the conclusion that he's doing the wrong thing somehow, so he tries to figure out what he needs to go do, to find his proper path so he can go home.
And that's what he does in AC, and presumably ACC. He finds that he needs to forgive himself for his past failures and to confront his fears of something unpleasant happening to his family (and that simply not being near them won't keep them safe from what targets him), that he must confront both of these issues, and only then does the spectre of guilt leave him.
That's why it's so important for him to look at both Zack and Aerith in the end of the movie. He can now look them in the eye, because he no longer kicks himself over both of their deaths, but still remembers them fondly.
Hell, there's probably more to this than I've even thought about. He also looks Tifa directly in the eyes in the end and the wolf appears to the two of them too, so that might be indicative of their relationship no longer being haunted by the memories they were fighting...
Hmm... I tend to despise overthinking symbolism, but there might be something here to all this.
In any case, overcoming a specific demon in the form of Sephiroth's control and his shame of not living up to a self imposed ideal is not the same as coming to terms with not believing you deserve your own happiness and shapeless fears.
Overcoming one doesn't automatically mean you overcome the other, and it's unrealistic, even in fiction, to expect a psychological panacea. Overcoming one's psychological issues is a slow and many faceted process.
Cloud, from a psychological standpoint, has every reason to fear his comfort being torn from him, since people he cares about keep dying around him, and with a self blaming nature, it makes sense that he'd shoulder that on himself.
His REAL breakthrough in AC was Cloud realizing he shouldn't blame himself, and that he shouldn't worry so much about losing the people close to him that he winds up doing nothing and losing them anyways.
Egads that's horrifically rambly, but I hope you all get where I'm coming from with all that.
Cloud, on the other hand, is a man with deep seated psychological issues. He is very prone to self blame, holds himself to unreasonable standards, and worries excessively. He's also not had a whole lot in his life go right.
Cloud's issue in FF7 was that he needed to assert himself, he needed to find his confidence to overcome the imminent crisis. Cloud has had experience with combat and dealing with crises from his time in ShinRa, he knows how to react to all this. So Cloud gains the confidence to strive forward against adversity. And this is all well and good, but when you remove the adveristy, and recall that Cloud has a history of losing the good things in his life at any given moment, it only makes perfect sense that he becomes worried that he won't get to appreciate his new happiness, that it will be taken from him, so he begins withdrawing and trying to figure out why it would be, because Cloud is the type of person who doesn't instrinsically 'know' that it's okay to be happy. He thinks he needs to earn it, and he hasn't earned it in his own mind. Hence his being haunted by the spectre of his past failures (the wolf being the guilt he holds), and him trying to do right by Denzel as a form of penance. And he does try, he works, and he's happy, and then, just when he thinks he's deserving things, he gets Geostigma and his worry and guilt and fear of failure all come to a head and he heads off to face his death, protect his family from the fallout he expects will befall them, and find his forgiveness.
To illustrate this idea, take a look at the new ACC trailer, just before Denzel is attacked by the shadow creepers and Cloud saves him, he sees an image of Zack walking off to die superimposed over Denzel's image.
Cloud wants forgiveness from the dead because he feels beholden unto them for his failure. He thinks he's been given penance in the form of taking care of Denzel until Geostigma arrives, and he comes to the conclusion that he's doing the wrong thing somehow, so he tries to figure out what he needs to go do, to find his proper path so he can go home.
And that's what he does in AC, and presumably ACC. He finds that he needs to forgive himself for his past failures and to confront his fears of something unpleasant happening to his family (and that simply not being near them won't keep them safe from what targets him), that he must confront both of these issues, and only then does the spectre of guilt leave him.
That's why it's so important for him to look at both Zack and Aerith in the end of the movie. He can now look them in the eye, because he no longer kicks himself over both of their deaths, but still remembers them fondly.
Hell, there's probably more to this than I've even thought about. He also looks Tifa directly in the eyes in the end and the wolf appears to the two of them too, so that might be indicative of their relationship no longer being haunted by the memories they were fighting...
Hmm... I tend to despise overthinking symbolism, but there might be something here to all this.
In any case, overcoming a specific demon in the form of Sephiroth's control and his shame of not living up to a self imposed ideal is not the same as coming to terms with not believing you deserve your own happiness and shapeless fears.
Overcoming one doesn't automatically mean you overcome the other, and it's unrealistic, even in fiction, to expect a psychological panacea. Overcoming one's psychological issues is a slow and many faceted process.
Cloud, from a psychological standpoint, has every reason to fear his comfort being torn from him, since people he cares about keep dying around him, and with a self blaming nature, it makes sense that he'd shoulder that on himself.
His REAL breakthrough in AC was Cloud realizing he shouldn't blame himself, and that he shouldn't worry so much about losing the people close to him that he winds up doing nothing and losing them anyways.
Egads that's horrifically rambly, but I hope you all get where I'm coming from with all that.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
As Ryushikaze pointed out, Zidane had an entirely different support system and innate outlook that helped him overcome that incident with Garland. He kind of had a psychological leg up on the guy from the start. Cloud, as it has been pointed out numerous times, did not have the same skills.
And it's not about the past of the game being irrelevant, it's about having the cognitive and emotional tools and support to deal with LIFE. You can fight an entire fucking war and win, and that's not suddenly going to magically make you a better person to talk to or relate to. Him overcoming Sephiroth doesn't give Cloud some deep psychological epiphany on how to live his life or create a new future. Nor does it undo his deep seated psychological issues. Which he has. Fighting =/= therapy.
And it's not about the past of the game being irrelevant, it's about having the cognitive and emotional tools and support to deal with LIFE. You can fight an entire fucking war and win, and that's not suddenly going to magically make you a better person to talk to or relate to. Him overcoming Sephiroth doesn't give Cloud some deep psychological epiphany on how to live his life or create a new future. Nor does it undo his deep seated psychological issues. Which he has. Fighting =/= therapy.
Tennyo
Higher Further Faster
I read your post, Ryu. A nice description of Clouds character. You should go post in the Cloud club!
And yes I agree, how is Auron emo? He was dead set on what needed to be done and did it. He didn't curl up into a corner and cry. He was Mr. Badass and was probably one of if not THE main instigator in the plot; he just pulled strings without people realizing what he was doing.
And to add the the Cloud discussion I like to relate him to Frodo from LOTR. Anyone see the similarities? He destroyed the Ring, went home, stayed in the Shire for a few years, but then eventually he went with the elves because he just couldn't handle it all anymore. The past was too painful for him to overcome.
And yes I agree, how is Auron emo? He was dead set on what needed to be done and did it. He didn't curl up into a corner and cry. He was Mr. Badass and was probably one of if not THE main instigator in the plot; he just pulled strings without people realizing what he was doing.
And to add the the Cloud discussion I like to relate him to Frodo from LOTR. Anyone see the similarities? He destroyed the Ring, went home, stayed in the Shire for a few years, but then eventually he went with the elves because he just couldn't handle it all anymore. The past was too painful for him to overcome.
Tetsujin
he/they
- AKA
- Tets
[quote author=Shademp link=topic=559.msg23912#msg23912 date=1235723703]
A question about the region coding again.
Even if it is Region A coding like PlayAsia suggests, should I be able to play it on a PS3? I hear PS3 is supposed to be region free, so would I safely spend money if I bought a PS3 as well?
[/quote]
The PS3 itself isn't region-free. It depends on whether the games/movies are region-coded or not.
A question about the region coding again.
Even if it is Region A coding like PlayAsia suggests, should I be able to play it on a PS3? I hear PS3 is supposed to be region free, so would I safely spend money if I bought a PS3 as well?
[/quote]
The PS3 itself isn't region-free. It depends on whether the games/movies are region-coded or not.
Masamune
Fiat Lux
- AKA
- Masa
@Ryu/Mako et al.
It's okay to say that Cloud had a messed-up childhood, but I think saying that he already had experience with Shinra to deal with the crisis in FFVII is pretty spurious (especially when this is the guy who failed at Shinra in the first place). We're not talking about a simple skirmish here, we're talking about the world coming to an end and Cloud having to face the very nemesis who destroyed his reality (TWICE). That's a helluva lot to deal with, for someone so vulnerable and burdened by deep-seated psychological issues.
Also, Cloud displayed great leadership qualities to rally everyone together during AVALANCHE and have them find what they were fighting for. Come AC, he is suddenly a self-confessed burden to his friends and family. There's no coherency to the character building of the original game, and instead of retaining the values and strength that he mustered during FFVII (that we the gamer invested hours on end to see) he's become an absolute fairy who leaves his woman to deal with everything.
Cloud is made of sterner stuff than people think, but I fear that's been white-washed by his emo status now.
It's okay to say that Cloud had a messed-up childhood, but I think saying that he already had experience with Shinra to deal with the crisis in FFVII is pretty spurious (especially when this is the guy who failed at Shinra in the first place). We're not talking about a simple skirmish here, we're talking about the world coming to an end and Cloud having to face the very nemesis who destroyed his reality (TWICE). That's a helluva lot to deal with, for someone so vulnerable and burdened by deep-seated psychological issues.
Also, Cloud displayed great leadership qualities to rally everyone together during AVALANCHE and have them find what they were fighting for. Come AC, he is suddenly a self-confessed burden to his friends and family. There's no coherency to the character building of the original game, and instead of retaining the values and strength that he mustered during FFVII (that we the gamer invested hours on end to see) he's become an absolute fairy who leaves his woman to deal with everything.
Cloud is made of sterner stuff than people think, but I fear that's been white-washed by his emo status now.
Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
- AKA
- Tim, Ryu
I'm not saying he had to deal with something of the level as in FF7 before, but of the same type. Conflict and confrontation of specific issues.
What he's facing later on is something else entirely, a gnawing lasting fear that his family, the thing that makes him happy, will be lost as some sort of punishment for failure. And so he's trying to give back, and he does keep working at it until he's stricken with Geostigma and he starts looking for his forgiveness directly. It's not that he's weak, more than he's clueless.
Cloud simply doesn't know what he needs to do, and he's worried about cocking it up lest his family take the brunt. It's not that he's being emo, or sullen, or anything like that, but he's hesitant and overthinking it, a la his arc in Dissidia. Cecil had the same issue at several points during FFIV, though with much less melodrama surrounding it.
What he's facing later on is something else entirely, a gnawing lasting fear that his family, the thing that makes him happy, will be lost as some sort of punishment for failure. And so he's trying to give back, and he does keep working at it until he's stricken with Geostigma and he starts looking for his forgiveness directly. It's not that he's weak, more than he's clueless.
Cloud simply doesn't know what he needs to do, and he's worried about cocking it up lest his family take the brunt. It's not that he's being emo, or sullen, or anything like that, but he's hesitant and overthinking it, a la his arc in Dissidia. Cecil had the same issue at several points during FFIV, though with much less melodrama surrounding it.
Shademp
420
[quote author=Tennyo link=topic=559.msg23958#msg23958 date=1235737044]
Where do you live, Shademp? That would help in figuring out if it would work for you or not.
[/quote]
Sweden, and from what I could gather in this topic only those from Japan or NA are not taking any risks ordering the movie.
Where do you live, Shademp? That would help in figuring out if it would work for you or not.
[/quote]
Sweden, and from what I could gather in this topic only those from Japan or NA are not taking any risks ordering the movie.
Masamune
Fiat Lux
- AKA
- Masa
[quote author=Ryushikaze link=topic=559.msg24020#msg24020 date=1235756063]
I'm not saying he had to deal with something of the level as in FF7 before, but of the same type. Conflict and confrontation of specific issues.
What he's facing later on is something else entirely, a gnawing lasting fear that his family, the thing that makes him happy, will be lost as some sort of punishment for failure. And so he's trying to give back, and he does keep working at it until he's stricken with Geostigma and he starts looking for his forgiveness directly. It's not that he's weak, more than he's clueless.
Cloud simply doesn't know what he needs to do, and he's worried about cocking it up lest his family take the brunt. It's not that he's being emo, or sullen, or anything like that, but he's hesitant and overthinking it, a la his arc in Dissidia. Cecil had the same issue at several points during FFIV, though with much less melodrama surrounding it.
[/quote]
But the point I'm trying to make is that FFVII was about settling his past and moving forward. It wasn't just about defeating Sephiroth. AC teaches us that Cloud hasn't let go or moved on with his life. Sure, he might have a family now but the first moment things get tough he runs away and ignores their cries for help. That's a selfish and weak thing to do, even if he was hiding some misguided good intention. Aside from that, there is no consistency in having your hero overcome his inner-demons and save the world, only to run away when he can't protect his family. All those trials in FFVII should have taught him something and have a lasting effect on him, but it obviously had a negative effect because he still thinks he is a failure and blames himself for Aerith's death.
And let me say again, for the record, that I don't expect those events to have ameliorated every nuance of Cloud's psyche, but I would expect him to have the strength to keep his family together. I think he's come too far to run away and leave his beloved to look after their dying orphan.
I don't think what he endured in FFVII and his scenario in AC are as mutually exclusive as some of you seem to think. In fact, they parallel one another. Cloud can't face-up to who he is, and so retreats into his own world of failure. It's basically the same premise wearing a different cover.
I'm not saying he had to deal with something of the level as in FF7 before, but of the same type. Conflict and confrontation of specific issues.
What he's facing later on is something else entirely, a gnawing lasting fear that his family, the thing that makes him happy, will be lost as some sort of punishment for failure. And so he's trying to give back, and he does keep working at it until he's stricken with Geostigma and he starts looking for his forgiveness directly. It's not that he's weak, more than he's clueless.
Cloud simply doesn't know what he needs to do, and he's worried about cocking it up lest his family take the brunt. It's not that he's being emo, or sullen, or anything like that, but he's hesitant and overthinking it, a la his arc in Dissidia. Cecil had the same issue at several points during FFIV, though with much less melodrama surrounding it.
[/quote]
But the point I'm trying to make is that FFVII was about settling his past and moving forward. It wasn't just about defeating Sephiroth. AC teaches us that Cloud hasn't let go or moved on with his life. Sure, he might have a family now but the first moment things get tough he runs away and ignores their cries for help. That's a selfish and weak thing to do, even if he was hiding some misguided good intention. Aside from that, there is no consistency in having your hero overcome his inner-demons and save the world, only to run away when he can't protect his family. All those trials in FFVII should have taught him something and have a lasting effect on him, but it obviously had a negative effect because he still thinks he is a failure and blames himself for Aerith's death.
And let me say again, for the record, that I don't expect those events to have ameliorated every nuance of Cloud's psyche, but I would expect him to have the strength to keep his family together. I think he's come too far to run away and leave his beloved to look after their dying orphan.
I don't think what he endured in FFVII and his scenario in AC are as mutually exclusive as some of you seem to think. In fact, they parallel one another. Cloud can't face-up to who he is, and so retreats into his own world of failure. It's basically the same premise wearing a different cover.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
I'm really not understanding why you can't wrap your head around Cloud having a moment of weakness due to the circumstances of his current situation and life. Either you're clearly a staunch determinist who sees things in black and white or you just really don't understand how regardless of what past experiences you may have, a current situation can always raise past demons regardless of how well you've overcame them before.
People aren't supermen who, once they go through one trauma and recovery, are completely inoculated from ever displaying weakness or fear again. It's a silly thought and belief. It doesn't matter that Cloud settled his past with Sephiroth and decided to move forward. The present is built on the foundation of the past and the past can conceivably rear its ugly head especially in dire, life threatening circumstances. ESPECIALLY when it's the first time Cloud's taking a crack at this thing called "happiness."
Cloud DID keep his family together. What the heck do you think the ending of AC was about? Why are you so hung up on the first 20 minutes of AC and Case of Tifa? You do realize the plot progressed past that right? And Cloud was only gone for around 5 to 7 days?
Several people have explained it to you in very clear and intelligent ways, but I don't think you intend to see it any other way, especially when you just say that it was FFVII all over again. Cloud's problem in AC didn't have to do with him running from his identity, it had to do with fear of loss and guilt.
People aren't supermen who, once they go through one trauma and recovery, are completely inoculated from ever displaying weakness or fear again. It's a silly thought and belief. It doesn't matter that Cloud settled his past with Sephiroth and decided to move forward. The present is built on the foundation of the past and the past can conceivably rear its ugly head especially in dire, life threatening circumstances. ESPECIALLY when it's the first time Cloud's taking a crack at this thing called "happiness."
Cloud DID keep his family together. What the heck do you think the ending of AC was about? Why are you so hung up on the first 20 minutes of AC and Case of Tifa? You do realize the plot progressed past that right? And Cloud was only gone for around 5 to 7 days?
Several people have explained it to you in very clear and intelligent ways, but I don't think you intend to see it any other way, especially when you just say that it was FFVII all over again. Cloud's problem in AC didn't have to do with him running from his identity, it had to do with fear of loss and guilt.
Masamune
Fiat Lux
- AKA
- Masa
Actually Mako, it is a very similar case between FFVII & AC. Both times Cloud struggles with being a failure (i.e. not making it to SOLDIER/failing Aerith & Zack and burdening his loved ones). Therefore he runs away from the truth (i.e. adopts Zack's persona/isolates himself from society).
You basically said that FFVII was pointless, in other words. Which is where this entire problem lies. Yes, the present is built on the past, which is exactly why the precedent would be the trials and character building of FFVII. After all, that's why we played the game and followed his story, to watch him become a better man, a hero.
You basically said that FFVII was pointless, in other words. Which is where this entire problem lies. Yes, the present is built on the past, which is exactly why the precedent would be the trials and character building of FFVII. After all, that's why we played the game and followed his story, to watch him become a better man, a hero.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
It's easy to make a case for them being parallel when you completely gloss over the details of each story.
Cloud is struggling with the failure of not being able to protect the people he loves. That sense of loss and inadequacy is not the same as his failure to get into SOLDIER and be a hero, which is from his teenage years. Cloud's problem in FFVII is him not remembering who he was and having to rebuild his reality.
Cloud didn't purposefully adopt Zack's persona. That's thanks to the Jenova cells and mako poisoning. He didn't run and choose to forget who he was.
Cloud in AC isolates himself because he feels his death is coming soon and he doesn't want his death or pain to be a burden on anyone else.
FFVII isn't pointless but the problems of FFVII AC were not around in FFVII. A new issue is present in AC, and we see him get over it and become better from it thanks to the help of his friends and him choosing to move forward.
Cloud is struggling with the failure of not being able to protect the people he loves. That sense of loss and inadequacy is not the same as his failure to get into SOLDIER and be a hero, which is from his teenage years. Cloud's problem in FFVII is him not remembering who he was and having to rebuild his reality.
Cloud didn't purposefully adopt Zack's persona. That's thanks to the Jenova cells and mako poisoning. He didn't run and choose to forget who he was.
Cloud in AC isolates himself because he feels his death is coming soon and he doesn't want his death or pain to be a burden on anyone else.
FFVII isn't pointless but the problems of FFVII AC were not around in FFVII. A new issue is present in AC, and we see him get over it and become better from it thanks to the help of his friends and him choosing to move forward.
Masamune
Fiat Lux
- AKA
- Masa
I didn't "gloss" over anything, I simply pointed out that for all intents and purposes they are the same storyline. Either way, both Clouds are too ashamed to look in the mirror therefore they run away from the truth. You can dance around that all you want, but is that not correct? Simple Yes or No will do fine.
Again, that's the point. AC throws a layer of shit on Cloud that was not necessary and not in cohesion with the character development of FFVII. Because you could just say AC is as pointless as FFVII, if another problem came along that tugged on part of Cloud's inner-demons. After all, if all that happened in FFVII isn't enough to set him straight what's to logically say that AC is too?
Again, that's the point. AC throws a layer of shit on Cloud that was not necessary and not in cohesion with the character development of FFVII. Because you could just say AC is as pointless as FFVII, if another problem came along that tugged on part of Cloud's inner-demons. After all, if all that happened in FFVII isn't enough to set him straight what's to logically say that AC is too?
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Comparing Cloud's fracturing ego to him finally dealing with the death and grief of his comrades while in the throws of a terminal illness is not the same thing. And Cloud wasn't ashamed of his past once he remembered it. He embraced it and said he will live in reality. The only reason Cloud doesn't know who he is, is because the Jenova cells have forced him to adopt a false persona. It has nothing to do with a volition or desire to live a lie.
So no
Life is a series of conflicts. One after another. If Cloud is going to start a new life and family, then he has to deal with the trials and tribulations of doing that. A solved problem doesn't solve every subsequent problem afterwords. An examination of him dealing with grief and loss is only natural and pertinent to Cloud finally living in his own skin for once. That was not present in FFVII.
If they suddenly decide to give Cloud another identity crisis, fatal disease, or depression at the loss of his loved ones, you'd have a point. Cloud may have problems in the future but as long as he lives on and rises above them, then that's acceptable.
So no
Life is a series of conflicts. One after another. If Cloud is going to start a new life and family, then he has to deal with the trials and tribulations of doing that. A solved problem doesn't solve every subsequent problem afterwords. An examination of him dealing with grief and loss is only natural and pertinent to Cloud finally living in his own skin for once. That was not present in FFVII.
If they suddenly decide to give Cloud another identity crisis, fatal disease, or depression at the loss of his loved ones, you'd have a point. Cloud may have problems in the future but as long as he lives on and rises above them, then that's acceptable.
Masamune
Fiat Lux
- AKA
- Masa
That's wrong, I'm afraid. It's said that Cloud's Jenova cells created an ideal image for himself AND Tifa. It was Cloud's weakness, fuelled by the Jenova cells/Mako that created that fake personality.
It doesn't solve every problem, but it creates a stronger, more balanced, individual that would you not expect to be angsting about and neglecting his responsibilities. It was technically his fault that the world was going to end, but that never fazed him! But I am getting sick of saying all this, so if you want to agree to disagree it would be doing me a big favour.
So you would be perfectly okay with Cloud being sullen and withdrawn over another problem?
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Yeah but Cloud's inner weakness doesn't mean he purposefully WANTED to live a lie. Everyone has weakness in their hearts. It's because of Cloud's weak will that the Jenova cells were able to get a hold of his mind and create an entirely separate persona. He did not want to purposefully live out a lie and become a puppet.
Cloud is stronger but again, he's not perfect. But yeah, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then
And I must've not made myself clear. I mean, that in another story or title, Cloud will have a conflict of some kind. Something's going to happen ( a threat to the world, death, etc) where he'll be forced to confront those past things again. I don't expect Cloud to never ever have to face conflict again, but I do expect him to have a better way of dealing with it than in AC.
Tl;dr no, I wouldn't expect or be okay with Cloud being sullen and withdrawn in response to his problems. Cloud's gonna have problems but now he knows he's not alone and has his friends and family. He shouldn't react the same way again.
Cloud is stronger but again, he's not perfect. But yeah, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then
And I must've not made myself clear. I mean, that in another story or title, Cloud will have a conflict of some kind. Something's going to happen ( a threat to the world, death, etc) where he'll be forced to confront those past things again. I don't expect Cloud to never ever have to face conflict again, but I do expect him to have a better way of dealing with it than in AC.
Tl;dr no, I wouldn't expect or be okay with Cloud being sullen and withdrawn in response to his problems. Cloud's gonna have problems but now he knows he's not alone and has his friends and family. He shouldn't react the same way again.
Masamune
Fiat Lux
- AKA
- Masa
[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=559.msg24131#msg24131 date=1235775831]
Yeah but Cloud's inner weakness doesn't mean he purposefully WANTED to live a lie. Everyone has weakness in their hearts. It's because of Cloud's weak will that the Jenova cells were able to get a hold of his mind and create an entirely separate persona. He did not want to purposefully live out a lie and become a puppet.[/quote]
So then why did it create an ideal image of himself? Because Cloud believed he was a failure. It was a subconscious reaction, which are the deepest. The circumstances might not be exact, but for all intents and purposes both Clouds believed themselves to be failures.
That's something....at least.
Yeah but Cloud's inner weakness doesn't mean he purposefully WANTED to live a lie. Everyone has weakness in their hearts. It's because of Cloud's weak will that the Jenova cells were able to get a hold of his mind and create an entirely separate persona. He did not want to purposefully live out a lie and become a puppet.[/quote]
So then why did it create an ideal image of himself? Because Cloud believed he was a failure. It was a subconscious reaction, which are the deepest. The circumstances might not be exact, but for all intents and purposes both Clouds believed themselves to be failures.
That's something....at least.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Masamune said:
Yeah, but you can't say Cloud deliberately chose to run away from himself. It wasn't deliberate, it was the because of the Jenova cells that he was living as someone else. When he finally regained his senses, he says he's not gonna pretend anymore. That shows that while he still sees himself as a failure, he accepts it and is going to move on and show he isn't.
Ha ha, you're a riot.