30 minutes of brand new footage, & 100 changes to the original FFVII AC

[Max Payne]

Because expecting Cloud to suddenly "know" how to properly deal with shit like this is unrealistic and absurd. He has no fucking experience or plan to live a normal life. He's as developed as a maladjusted 16 year old who ran away from his village to be a hero in the military. He isn't exactly someone who "knows better." He hasn't been taught. He finally LEARNED that lesson IN Advent Children.

He had the time to learn such things before AC, and seemed prepared to at the end of FF7.

And none of that shit even touches on Cloud suddenly being able to move on in a post-Meteor Crisis world, or resolving his issues of loss or guilt. Or having a terminal illness. Or maturing.

Yes it does, it prepared him to get on with his life and learn to live. But he clearly did not. If he learned ANYTHING, ANYTHING, in FF7, it's that he needs the help of other people when it comes to his problems.

First off, what the fuck do Reno and Rude know? And second, they disapproved of it because they had a vested interest in Cloud's well being.

Reno and Rude are not stupid, it was obvious to anyone with eyes the dysfunction that was going on. So they should know enough from observing his behavior. That's stupid question and you know it.

No shit. The point I was making was, was that they were doing it not because they thought he was a bad person, or a "douche" or "wimp" but because they loved him.

No shit? I didn't say they were. They were doing what they were because they wanted him to stop acting like a wimp because they loved him.

...That wasn't Cloud. That was Cloud under the influence of Jenova cells. Him holding onto his false persona was exactly what caused him to crack. He was clutching a lie. And because of that, when Sephiroth showed him the truth, the persona he was grasping so strongly dissolved away leaving him a mere shell.

Cloud was still coping with his fucked up nature, he may have been under Jenova's influence, but he was still doing his best to function. Jenova did not control his every thought and action.

KEY WORD BEING TRYING. WHICH HE DID.

WHERE? WHERE? I DIDN'T SEE IT.

And he failed. The fucker did improve but it doesn't mean shit if he doesn't have the internal skills to deal with it. He's not perfect and holy shit...it fell apart and he needed to try again. What the hell is unrealistic about *that*?

2 years with people that loved him isn't enough for him to learn that he needs the people he loves to deal with his problems? FF7 practically shoved that lesson down his throat.

Again...saving the world and regaining your own persona doesn't make you well-adjusted. He just REMEMBERED who he was. Not fix who he was.

No, dealing with major issues, coming to peace with your feeling towards people who've played a major part in your past makes you adjusted enough to be prepared to attempt to become a person.

And Cloud was never an introvert until the Compilation, are you fucking serious? Where the hell does Cloud exhibit extroverted behavior in FFVII once he regains his mind. Please. Show me. I want to see this.

Are you fucking serious? Making jokes, sitting at playgrounds discussing your feelings, DECLARING HOW YOU FEEL OUT LOUD about how fucked up things are, hanging out a casino with his friends, making an effort to search out your problems and deal with them, introverts generally don't do all that shit.

Cloud did not keep to himself for all of FF7. He didn't like to be alone, and he did not actively go out of his way to be alone did he? Introverts are defined by wanting to keep to themselves, and spend the majority of their time doing solitary activities. Is that what Cloud was in FF7?

[quote author=The Notorious M.O.G. link=topic=559.msg23169#msg23169 date=1235605220]
Those are the 'natural' introverts I was referring earlier. Some people can pull it off like a pro. Hell, Cloud was an introvert in Crisis Core and still spoke and such with his friend Zack. See? Happy medium!
[/quote]

I still don't find anything natural about being introverted. I know from experience personal and from watching others how detrimental it can be. As far as Crisis Core goes, meh.

 

[Masamune]

Are you fucking serious? Making jokes, sitting at playgrounds discussing your feelings, DECLARING HOW YOU FEEL OUT LOUD about how fucked up things are, hanging out a casinos with his friends, making an effort to search out your problems and deal with them, introverts don't do all that shit.

*thumbs up*

I can't remember who said it, but apparently AC Cloud was portrayed that way because that's the Cloud that fans remember. You know, the guy who didn't want to face his feelings or socialize with anyone. He was like that for about five minutes during Disc 1.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I still don't find anything natural about being introverted. I know from experience personal and from watching others how detrimental it can be.

Eh. I'm sorry to hear that. My own personal experiences, various psychological studies, psyche classes, and the friendships and family members who are introverted disagree, but well, that's your opinion.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Cloud isn’t as screwed-up as you like to think. He did go through a lot, as you and many others were quick to glorify, but he developed as a man and a person in FFVII. All that work was obviously for nothing when he can’t even fight for his family.

Uh...yeah. He is. Even his teammates say so. His achievements from FIGHTING to save the world, do not automatically translate to him living a life and dealing with the struggles of moving on and dealing with his trauma. Seriously, how the hell do you equate him being able to overcome his identity crisis to being able to suddenly be able to make a life for himself, understand what it means to have a family, and be a father? How does that remove all of his guilt and pain? What's your point and evidence to this? You're quick to criticize but offer me some proof that FFVII Cloud was so well adjusted and healthy that there's no way in hell he'd suddenly be overwhelmed by everything hitting him at once and he'd become despondent? Back it up, please.

They were annoyed with him, Mako. How you can’t see that, I don’t know. It wasn’t all ‘Aww, you darling, Cloud. Please come home to us.’ There were times they snapped at him in frustration because they disapproved of his actions.

Yeah. Once. Each. And again, that wasn't chiding him as being "emo" or a bad person, but because they just didn't know what else they could do to reach out to him. I'm picking apart your point in claiming they were "Fed up with him being a douche."

What he’s become is the problem. SE trying to paint Cloud as a wangsty emo was obviously for the demographic, as well as rebooting his character so they could drag his conflict out all over again.

Proof, or gtfo. Because all you're doing is just really complaining that Cloud wasn't the guy you expected/wanted him to be. Them actually examining his road to moving on and dealing with his post-FFVII issues hardly makes him emo. Fuck, he's not even that "emo" (and that's such a loaded word) as other FF characters like Squall. There's a lot more to Cloud's angst than him just being "Emo" and "lonely." Give me a fucking break.

He had the time to learn such things before AC, and seemed prepared to at the end of FF7.

You show me where he learned how to plan and live a normal life in FFVII and I'll eat my own face. Please. Show me where.

Yes it does, it prepared him to get on with his life and learn to live. But he clearly did not. If he learned ANYTHING, ANYTHING, in FF7, it's that he needs the help of other people when it comes to his problems.

That's not a fucking experience he learned from or a lesson, that's just hope. Hope isn't enough. That's just the first step. This isn't a fairy tale. Cloud knows nothing outside of finding his own persona. That's not a panacea to all his problems.

Cloud was still coping with his fucked up nature, he may have been under Jenova's influence, but he was still doing his best to function. Jenova did not control his every thought and action.

The key difference there though, is that he's hiding behind his insecurities and a lie. That's not Cloud. That's not his real personality. That's not his real identity. You can't call that him when he's under mind control, dude.

No, dealing with major issues, coming to peace with your feeling towards people who've played a major part in your past makes you adjusted enough to be prepared to attempt to become a person.

Dude...that's under the context of him preparing for a final showdown with his enemy. NOT starting a life in society. That shit is not the same. Stop equating Cloud getting the balls to accept his past, face his nemesis, and carry the burden of saving the world...to him looking inward to himself, opening up, and starting a noraml life. The shit ain't the same.

Are you fucking serious? Making jokes, sitting at playgrounds discussing your feelings, DECLARING HOW YOU FEEL OUT LOUD about how fucked up things are, hanging out a casino with his friends, making an effort to search out your problems and deal with them, introverts generally don't do all that shit.

Cloud did not keep to himself for all of FF7. He didn't like to be alone, and he did not actively go out of his way to be alone did he?

You're wrong on several points. And again, introverts aren't people who necessarily want to be alone dude. Get the definition straight. Introvert =/= loner.

1.) That's Cloud acting under the influence of fucking mind controlling Jenova cells. That's not who he really is.

2.) Him confiding in Tifa private under the cloak of intimacy is NOT extroverted. At all. You don't have to be an extrovert to crack jokes either. Cloud's introverted, not autistic. Seriously. Those are not instances of Cloud being an outgoing person.

3.) Him hanging out at a casino that he HAD to go to in order to find Sephiroth? What the hell? He wasn't there for fucking fun.

4.) He didn't make an effort to sort his problems. TIFA DID. He'd still be in a wheelchair if it wasn't for her, what are you talking about?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Seperate post cause I'm not editing the last tl;dr one.

I can't remember who said it, but apparently AC Cloud was portrayed that way because that's the Cloud that fans remember. You know, the guy who didn't want to face his feelings or socialize with anyone. He was like that for about five minutes during Disc 1.

Cloud on disc 1 wasn't introverted. He was cocky, confident, and a mishmash of how he imagined SOLDIER 1st Class to be, and also Zack. An extrovert. Cloud wasn't introverted at all on disc 1. An introvert doesn't suddenly ask a girl for a date the first moment he meets them. An introvert doesn't brush his hair out of his face in style, or do dramatic entrances to impress people, or make flashy poses No..Cloud on disc 1 is not the introvert.

And I'd still like proof of that quote and the context of it. I don't remember that.

 

[Max Payne]

You show me where he learned how to plan and live a normal life in FFVII and I'll eat my own face. Please. Show me where.

I didn't say he learned how to live a normal life in anyway you fucking ngr. Stop putting words in my mouth. I said he had plenty of time to learn from the people he loved within the 2 years between FF7 and AC.

That's not a fucking experience he learned from or a lesson, that's just hope. Hope isn't enough. That's just the first step. This isn't a fairy tale. Cloud knows nothing outside of finding his own persona. That's not a panacea to all his problems.

\

What the fuck, you make no sense. He learned he needs other people's help to live. How the fuck is that not a lesson? He knows he needs other people. He takes his strength from them. How you can argue against that I don't know. If you have good people to rely on and learn from in life, you can get along fine.

The key difference there though, is that he's hiding behind his insecurities and a lie. That's not Cloud. That's not his real personality. That's not his real identity. You can't call that him when he's under mind control, dude.

Cloud was not under mind control all the time. He was still trying to make sense of everything and live despite his confusion. This is clearly apparent when discussing his past experience with Sephiroth at Kalm.
He knew something was wrong, but just couldn't figure it out. If he was always under mind control why would he even think that way?

You can't say his personality was completely absent.

Dude...that's under the context of him preparing for a final showdown with his enemy. NOT starting a life in society. That shit is not the same. Stop equating Cloud getting the balls to accept his past, face his nemesis, and carry the burden of saving the world...to him looking inward to himself, opening up, and starting a noraml life. The shit ain't the same.

Yes Mako, people never learn from the trauma in their lives and apply those lessons to everyday life. Never.

1.) That's Cloud acting under the influence of fucking mind controlling Jenova cells. That's not who he really is.

Yes, Jenova controlled his every action and behavior.

2.) Him confiding in Tifa private under the cloak of intimacy is NOT extroverted. At all. You don't have to be an extrovert to crack jokes either. Cloud's introverted, not autistic. Seriously. Those are not instances of Cloud being an outgoing person.

I'm not just talking about him confiding in Tifa, he talked to everyone in FF7, he would go out and talk to people on the fucking streets for information.

He didn't suddenly turn into a completely different person after the lifestream, after he discovered his confusion his behavior was slowly changing, up to the huge cluster fuck in the end. He still said goofy shit and made jokes with his friends.

You can't say Jenova was responsible for his every action, you've nothing to say she was, because she had no reason to control his every little behavior and thought.

3.) Him hanging out at a casino that he HAD to go to in order to find Sephiroth? What the hell? He wasn't there for fucking fun.

No, but he didn't have to go and explore the area, and hang out with anyone now did he?

4.) He didn't make an effort to sort his problems. TIFA DID. He'd still be in a wheelchair if it wasn't for her, what are you talking about?

He was hunting Sephiroth to sort out his past, and discover what was wrong with himself. HOW THE FUCK IS THAT NOT MAKING A GODDAMN EFFORT?

The instance with the lifestream and his mako sickness are not the only things that happen regarding his issues.

 

[Masamune]

Uh...yeah. He is. Even his teammates say so. His achievements from FIGHTING to save the world, do not automatically translate to him living a life and dealing with the struggles of moving on and dealing with his trauma. Seriously, how the hell do you equate him being able to overcome his identity crisis to being able to suddenly be able to make a life for himself, understand what it means to have a family, and be a father? How does that remove all of his guilt and pain? What's your point and evidence to this? You're quick to criticize but offer me some proof that FFVII Cloud was so well adjusted and healthy that there's no way in hell he'd suddenly be overwhelmed by everything hitting him at once and he'd become despondent? Back it up, please.

If Cloud was such a screwed-up individual who couldn’t handle guilt or pain, he would have crumbled during FFVII. That’s a fact. He would have been like ‘Shit, the world is ending…. What does anything matter…. We can’t beat Sephiroth…’ But he kept going because he owed it to himself and everyone else to settle his problems. You try to make Cloud sound as pathetic and messed-up as humanly possible in order to make your point, then conveniently forget the trials and tribulations he previously went through.

Yeah. Once. Each.

Once is enough, isn’t it? Good.

Proof, or gtfo. Because all you're doing is just really complaining that Cloud wasn't the guy you expected/wanted him to be. Them actually examining his road to moving on and dealing with his post-FFVII issues hardly makes him emo. Fuck, he's not even that "emo" (and that's such a loaded word) as other FF characters like Squall. There's a lot more to Cloud's angst than him just being "Emo" and "lonely." Give me a fucking break.

Cloud is verrrry emo. He spends most of AC with a blank face, self-pitying himself, and making forlorn glances to the side.

Anyway, that’s me done for the night. I really didn’t know what I was letting myself in for when I made a point about MARLENE, but had to batten the hatches because the Cloud fanboys got offended. >_<

 

[Max Payne]

Seriously. You're trying to make it sound like he's completely retarded and pathetic. He's a strong person. He wouldn't have done what he did otherwise.

 

[Masamune]

Cloud on disc 1 wasn't introverted. He was cocky, confident, and a mishmash of how he imagined SOLDIER 1st Class to be, and also Zack. An extrovert. Cloud wasn't introverted at all on disc 1. An introvert doesn't suddenly ask a girl for a date the first moment he meets them. An introvert doesn't brush his hair out of his face in style, or do dramatic entrances to impress people, or make flashy poses No..Cloud on disc 1 is not the introvert.

You mean with such lines as:

"It's not my problem."

"Shut up! I don't care about either Shinra or SOLDIER! But don't
get me wrong! I don't care about AVALANCHE or the Planet for that matter!"

"I'm not a hero and I'm not famous. I can't keep……the promise."

That certainly strikes me as someone rather antisocial who isn't prepared to face up to their feelings.

And I'd still like proof of that quote and the context of it. I don't remember that.

So would I.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I didn't say he learned how to live a normal life in anyway you fucking ngr. Stop putting words in my mouth. I said he had plenty of time to learn from the people he loved within the 2 years between FF7 and AC

"People?" Dude, you mean Tifa. Cause everyone else went and did their own thing. Marlene sure as shit doesn't know. And then that leaves Denzel. How the fuck is Tifa gonna suddenly teach him everything? Cloud doesn't have this large circle of friends close to him.

What the fuck, you make no sense. He learned he needs other people's help to live. How the fuck is that not a lesson? He knows he needs other people. He takes his strength from them. How you can argue against that I don't know. If you have good people to rely on and learn from in life, you can get along fine.

That's not a lesson that teaches him how to deal with grief or guilt from being unable to save your town, your mother, your best friend, your comrade, and of course the guilt of killing hundreds of people after blowing up two large reactors as a terrorist. What the fuck does "rely on your friends" do to help him get through all that?

Cloud was not under mind control all the time. He was still trying to make sense of everything and live despite his confusion. This is clearly apparent when discussing his past experience with Sephiroth at Kalm.
He knew something was wrong, but just couldn't figure it out. If he was always under mind control why would he even think that way?

You can't say his personality was completely absent.

He kinda was. The "real" Cloud was just a disembodied voice in his head that tried to tell him the truth but he ignored. He almost had multiple personality disorder.

He didn't try to make sense of shit. He was living a lie made from Sephiroth's will and Jenova cells. Show me where he tried to make sense of it. And I'll show you him just living the lie and crumbling once his false persona is thrust in his face.

Him retelling his fractured fairy tale of what happened in Nibelheim isn't him trying to make sense of anything. He's just retelling the false memories he has in his head thanks to hearing Zack's version of events and mimicing his persona and memories. He's not a full fledged puppet but that's not him trying to piece together his persona on his own. That's just him...not being oblivious to the gaping manholes in his memory.

Yes Mako, people never learn from the trauma in their lives and apply those lessons to everyday life. Never.

You're the fucker saying he did. Prove it, and show me. Because FFVII doesn't show him doing that. It only shows him taking the first step in accepting who he is. NOT suddenly learning what it takes to live or move on with Tifa and a family. You're making an assumption. Someone with his past and baggage doesn't just fucking work through all that in a month in a half of fighting and saving the world. Period. Show me where he resolves all his problems and moves on in FFVII.

I'm not just talking about him confiding in Tifa, he talked to everyone in FF7, he would go out and talk to people on the fucking streets for information.

He didn't suddenly turn into a completely different person after the lifestream, after he discovered his confusion his behavior was slowly changing, up to the huge cluster fuck in the end. He still said goofy shit and made jokes with his friends.

You can't say Jenova was responsible for his every action, you've nothing to say she was, because she had no reason to control his every little behavior and thought.

That's him getting information to progress through the story. Cloud isn't hitting up people for dates, flirting, partying, or being an extrovert like Zack was. Him talking to NPCs is not indicative of extrovert tendancies. If that's the case, Squall's extroverted too.

And he talked to his comrades cause they were his comrades. That again, is nothing showing him being an extrovert. Introverts are quite comfortable opening up and talking to those they're close to.

And what jokes and goofy shit did he do? Fucking tell me, I'm really curious. And again, having a sense of humor isn't something only extroverts can do, dude. That's nothing either.

And yes, I can, because thats what the game shows and what Cloud shows. Not to mention what the creators have said several times. Hell the only fucking time he LAUGHS in FFVII on disc 1 is thanks to Jenova cells working his brain and making him act like Zack.

Yes, he was not himself.

@Masamune

Yeah, antisocial and cold. Not introverted and withdrawn, silent, or broody. He has no problem expressing himself, his ill temper, or showing off. That's not introvert behavior. Asking women you never met before for dates isn't introverted. Making cool poses to impress people isn't introverted. Making badass, grandiose entrances isn't introverted either. Selective recall, much?

And if you got no proof for it, then you're going by hearsay. I think its bullshit and you should stop relying on it as some proof or something.

If Cloud was such a screwed-up individual who couldn’t handle guilt or pain, he would have crumbled during FFVII. That’s a fact. He would have been like ‘Shit, the world is ending…. What does anything matter…. We can’t beat Sephiroth…’ But he kept going because he owed it to himself and everyone else to settle his problems. You try to make Cloud sound as pathetic and messed-up as humanly possible in order to make your point, then conveniently forget the trials and tribulations he previously went through.

...He did crumble. What are you talking about?

And in FFVII show me where he examined and dealt with the guilt and pain from his loss? That's a post-FFVII plot point. Show me where he wouldn't have cracked under it please, because you're just putting forth your postulation as fact. And it isn't.

Cloud is verrrry emo. He spends most of AC with a blank face, self-pitying himself, and making forlorn glances to the side.

Anyway, that’s me done for the night. I really didn’t know what I was letting myself in for when I made a point about MARLENE, but had to batten the hatches because the Cloud fanboys got offended. >_<

So because people called you on your erroneous, and BS statement we're fanboys? Okay!

That's a pretty lame way to bow out of an argument.

 

[Max Payne]

"People?" Dude, you mean Tifa. Cause everyone else went and did their own thing. Marlene sure as shit doesn't know. And then that leaves Denzel. How the fuck is Tifa gonna suddenly teach him everything? Cloud doesn't have this large circle of friends close to him.

Tifa, Marlene, and Barret where there with him. Cloud has a large circle of friends who'd die for him, and come whenever he needs them. You don't go through hell and not feel close to those people. They all shared feelings with each other over the course of their journey. Except for maybe Vincent.

That's not a lesson that teaches him how to deal with grief or guilt from being unable to save your town, your mother, your best friend, your comrade, and of course the guilt of killing hundreds of people after blowing up two large reactors as a terrorist. What the fuck does "rely on your friends" do to help him get through all that?

Are you serious? People are the ones who help you get over the trials in your life, who help you survive, learn, and live. Saying that no one can help him is stupid, and it's even stupider to say that the people in his life can't help him get over his problems.

Fuck people rely on therapists and family to deal with personal problems all the time, that's both a part, and a fact of life.

He kinda was. The "real" Cloud was just a disembodied voice in his head that tried to tell him the truth but he ignored. He almost had multiple personality disorder.

Ok mako, you go ahead and discount everything cloud did for 70% of the game as "Cloud was Jenova". The fact that he still has memories of everything before his Shinra escapes means nothing right?

He didn't try to make sense of shit. He was living a lie made from Sephiroth's will and Jenova cells. Show me where he tried to make sense of it. And I'll show you him just living the lie and crumbling once his false persona is thrust in his face.

Bullshit, he fucking collapsed from asking a question about the Ancients, and remembering what Sephiroth said trying to make sense of the thoughts he had.

Jenova had some control over him, but discounting everything he did because of that is stupid.

"Cloud: ……I want to know the truth. I wanted to know what happened then. I
challenged Sephiroth and lived why didn't he kill me?"

"Cloud: A Shinra uniform… I was so proud when I first put it on. I wonder when
it was… …I couldn't stand wearing this thing anymore."

"Cloud: Jenova, a calamity from the skies? You mean she wasn't an Ancient!?"

"Cloud: ......I'm afraid to find out the truth...? But...... why?"

Cloud: Of course! Who do you think I am!?

"Sephiroth: Ha, ha, ha...... Stop acting as if you were sad. There's no need to
act as though you're angry either. Because, Cloud. You are...

Sephiroth disappears and left another Jenova behind. Cloud’s group fights
Jenove-LIFE. After Cloud’s group defeated Jenova-LIFE...

Jenova: Because, you are...... a puppet.

Cloud: I'm...... a puppet?"

"Cloud: I came here by my own free will... Or so I thought. However......To tell
the truth, I'm afraid of myself. ...There is a part of me that I don't
understand. That part that made me give the Black Materia to Sephiroth. If you
hadn't stopped me, Aerith might have been......There's something inside of me.
A who is not really me. That's why I should quit this journey. Before I do
something terrible. But I am going. He destroyed my hometown five years ago,
killed Aerith, and is now trying to destroy the Planet. I'll never forgive...
Sephiroth. I... I must go on. ... I have a favor to ask of you. Will you all
come with me? ...to save me from doing something terrible."

Hell Cloud gave the black materia to his team because he couldn't trust himself with it. Cloud was well on the way to breaking down on his on.

Clearly this is someone not trying to make sense of his fucked up mind, and not trying to make an effort. His questioning of his nature was all Jenova's idea.

There's no Cloud in any of that, no free will or thought.

Him retelling his fractured fairy tale of what happened in Nibelheim isn't him trying to make sense of anything. He's just retelling the false memories he has in his head thanks to hearing Zack's version of events and mimicing his persona and memories. He's not a full fledged puppet but that's not him trying to piece together his persona on his own. That's just him...not being oblivious to the gaping manholes in his memory.

He questioned his recall of his memory at several points, how the fuck is that not trying to make sense of things you can't remember? He tried, just because there's something keeping him from breaking past the barrier doesn't mean he hasn't tried.

You're the fucker saying he did. Prove it, and show me. Because FFVII doesn't show him doing that. It only shows him taking the first step in accepting who he is. NOT suddenly learning what it takes to live or move on with Tifa and a family. You're making an assumption. Someone with his past and baggage doesn't just fucking work through all that in a month in a half of fighting and saving the world. Period. Show me where he resolves all his problems and moves on in FFVII.

Never did I say FF7 taught him how to live. You're making assumptions too. I didn't say he resolved all his problems. But go ahead, keep putting words in my mouth. I said he was ready to take the steps towards becoming a person.

That's him getting information to progress through the story. Cloud isn't hitting up people for dates, flirting, partying, or being an extrovert like Zack was. Him talking to NPCs is not indicative of extrovert tendancies. If that's the case, Squall's extroverted too.

Introverts do not make it a point to have overt interaction with strangers outside of work. Cloud didn't have to talk strangers, there were plenty of people to do it for him. They're not as confrontational either.

And he talked to his comrades cause they were his comrades. That again, is nothing showing him being an extrovert. Extroverts are quite comfortable opening up and talking to those they're close to.

You just said he wasn't that close to them earlier. Either way, he wasn't that close to those people to begin with. But he made an effort to talk to them and get to know them.

And what jokes and goofy shit did he do? Fucking tell me, I'm really curious. And again, having a sense of humor isn't something only extroverts can do, dude. That's nothing either.

"We're not getting off this train!" "Let's Mosey".

And it's not about him having a sense of humor, it's him being loose with his thoughts and saying what he thinks. Introverts typically think before they speak, and aren't as stand outish.

And yes, I can, because thats what the game shows and what Cloud shows. Not to mention what the creators have said several times. Hell the only fucking time he LAUGHS in FFVII on disc 1 is thanks to Jenova cells working his brain and making him act like Zack.

Yes, he was not himself.

Ok, Cloud=Jenova. Right.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Introverts do not make it a point to have overt interaction with strangers outside of work.

Introverts typically think before they speak, and aren't as stand outish.

And you say people like this aren't natural or they're bad? I dunno it just seems like...one of various personalities of people that exist in the world, no less natural than being an extrovert.

 

[Max Payne]

[quote author=The Notorious M.O.G. link=topic=559.msg23216#msg23216 date=1235610917]

Introverts do not make it a point to have overt interaction with strangers outside of work.

Introverts typically think before they speak, and aren't as stand outish.

And you say people like this aren't natural or they're bad? I dunno it just seems like...one of various personalities of people that exist in the world, no less natural than being an extrovert.
[/quote]

Ok, I concede. Some people are naturally one or the other and it varies from person to person. It's only ever really proven to be bad when overtly expressed in relationships, or when it keeps people from doing important things.

It's not inherently bad.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Tifa, Marlene, and Barret where there with him. Cloud has a large circle of friends who'd die for him, and come whenever he needs them. You don't go through hell and not feel close to those people. They all shared feelings with each other over the course of their journey. Except for maybe Vincent.

Barret was gone by the time Cloud was having trouble adjusting to his life. Only Tifa was there, and again, what the hell could Marlene teach him?

Are you serious? People are the ones who help you get over the trials in your life, who help you survive, learn, and live. Saying that no one can help him is stupid, and it's even stupider to say that the people in his life can't help him get over his problems.

Fuck people rely on therapists and family to deal with personal problems all the time, that's both a part, and a fact of life.

Where were people helping him adjust and get through that shit in FFVII? My point is, is where in FFVII were "people helping him" get through all of that other stuff? Show me that. Where does that theme in FFVII appear in regards to Cloud dealing with that specifically? You need to back up and prove where this happened that makes AC's portrayal so inaccurate and wrong.

Ok mako, you go ahead and discount everything cloud did for 70% of the game as "Cloud was Jenova". The fact that he still has memories of everything before his Shinra escapes means nothing right?

In regards to Cloud's persona and shit, yeah, Cloud was being controlled. It's a sad truth. His persona was not his own. He was playing pretend with Zack's memories and Jenova.

Hell Cloud gave the black materia to his team because he couldn't trust himself with it. Cloud was well on the way to breaking down on his on.

Clearly this is someone not trying to make sense of his fucked up mind, and not trying to make an effort. His questioning of his nature was all Jenova's idea.

There's no Cloud in any of that, no free will or thought.

For a split second, I thought you were agreeing with me. Fucking internet sarcasm....

Cloud's not a zombie. But he is being controlled. The creators have said that several time in his FFVII 10th Anniversary profile and the FFVII Ultimania Omega. He's aware of himself and his interactions, but he is not aware of his real persona, character or memories. He isn't so oblivious and lost that he isn't aware of the gaping holes in his memory or the inconsistencies, but he doesn't know why, and thus..he can't fix it and piece together the answers himself. He can't look at himself and fix himself because he doesn't know the problem.

He questioned his recall of his memory at several points, how the fuck is that not trying to make sense of things you can't remember? He tried, just because there's something keeping him from breaking past the barrier doesn't mean he hasn't tried.

Okay, I'll concede that I was wrong in saying he wasn't trying to make sense of his holes. But he wasn't capable OF fixing himself or looking inward because the false persona and Jenova cells wouldn't let him. He CAN'T look inward and fix himself if he doesn't even know what is wrong or where to look.

Never did I say FF7 taught him how to live. You're making assumptions too. I didn't say he resolved all his problems. But go ahead, keep putting words in my mouth. I said he was ready to take the steps towards becoming a person.

....Okay. And he did try to do that between FFVII and AC. We agree on that. He did take those first steps.

So...why is it inconceivable that he'd have set back, especially with what he's been through, and being stricken with a terminal illness?

I'll leave the points about introvertion alone that M.O.G. dealt with. But...

You just said he wasn't that close to them earlier. Either way, he wasn't that close to those people to begin with. But he made an effort to talk to them and get to know them.

I said Cloud wasn't close to his comrades? Buh wha? No..he was close to them, that's why he was able to open up to them and see them as friends.

"We're not getting off this train!" "Let's Mosey".

And it's not about him having a sense of humor, it's him being loose with his thoughts and saying what he thinks. Introverts typically think before they speak, and aren't as stand outish.

That's his sense of humor and him taking to heart a saying of his friend. That...doesn't really show him as extroverted. Just lighthearted. He isn't always serious. Again, being an introvert =/= being serious all the time. He can loosen up around his friends. They've shown that plenty of times in the Compilation too, you know.

 

[Max Payne]

Barret was gone by the time Cloud was having trouble adjusting to his life. Only Tifa was there, and again, what the hell could Marlene teach him?

Barret was with them for a short amount of time, and you learn from after people too you know.

Where were people helping him adjust and get through that shit in FFVII? My point is, is where in FFVII were "people helping him" get through all of that other stuff? Show me that. Where does that theme in FFVII appear in regards to Cloud dealing with that specifically? You need to back up and prove where this happened that makes AC's portrayal so inaccurate and wrong.

Are you seriously asking me a question that stupid? Several times throughout FF7 Cloud's friends counsel him and talk to him about the turmoil in his mind. The scene after the Temple of Ancients, and the Scene after Aerith's death come to mind. He had support throughout the game. They didn't just stand around and fight and do nothing else.

Cloud's not a zombie. But he is being controlled. The creators have said that several time in his FFVII 10th Anniversary profile and the FFVII Ultimania Omega. He's aware of himself and his interactions, but he is not aware of his real persona, character or memories. He isn't so oblivious and lost that he isn't aware of the gaping holes in his memory or the inconsistencies, but he doesn't know why, and thus..he can't fix it and piece together the answers himself. He can't look at himself and fix himself because he doesn't know the problem.

He knew something was wrong, he kept questioning it. Several times in the game his own personality was giving him clues about what was wrong with him. The kid persona at the Honey Bee inn? He unconsciously knew something was wrong.

Yes he was being manipulated by Jenova, but that clearly was not the only thing to it. Cloud was there, just not all the time, he just wasn't aware of what was truly wrong.

Okay, I'll concede that I was wrong in saying he wasn't trying to make sense of his holes. But he wasn't capable OF fixing himself or looking inward because the false persona and Jenova cells wouldn't let him. He CAN'T look inward and fix himself if he doesn't even know what is wrong or where to look.

No he can't, but what's important is he was trying. My whole point.

....Okay. And he did try to do that between FFVII and AC. We agree on that. He did take those first steps.

You still overlook my point, I said he had PLENTY OF TIME TO DO SO, in those two years. I think he should have had some development, he clearly did not.

So...why is it inconceivable that he'd have set back, especially with what he's been through, and being stricken with a terminal illness?

What's hard to believe is that he'd run away from people who want to help him after all that. Unless he thought Geostigma was contagious, then I'd believe it. But I haven't seen anything suggesting that yet.

I said Cloud wasn't close to his comrades? Buh wha? No..he was close to them, that's why he was able to open up to them and see them as friends.

Cloud doesn't have this large circle of friends close to him.

Seven people would constitute a large group imo.

That's his sense of humor and him taking to heart a saying of his friend. That...doesn't really show him as extroverted. Just lighthearted. He isn't always serious. Again, being an introvert =/= being serious all the time. He can loosen up around his friends. They've shown that plenty of times in the Compilation too, you know.

No, but a pronounced sense of humor is a very common trait among extroverted people, it's been debated that it isn't prominient in introverts because it draws attention to them or some shit.

But sure, I'll give you that. But I don't see him as being introverted still. He's too confrontational, expressive, and outgoing to be introverted. A period of depressions=/=being an introverted person.

But Cloud did NOT figure out who he was or his true self.

No, but he still suspected something was wrong, still wanted to figure out what was wrong. That's all Cloud.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Just chipping in my two cents to help both Dacon and Mako out, giving a thought;

No, but a pronounced sense of humor is a very common trait among extroverted people, it's been debated that it isn't prominient in introverts because it draws attention to them or some shit.

That depends. Introverted people aren't likely to crack jokes around people they don't know, but then again, introverted people are usually more open around their friends; the absolute funniest person I have ever met is an introvert.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Barret was with them for a short amount of time, and you learn from after people too you know.

Yeah, but you still need the actual person there to comfort you, and in the end, it was mostly Tifa trying to support Cloud. Since they were the family and all.

Are you seriously asking me a question that stupid? Several times throughout FF7 Cloud's friends counsel him and talk to him about the turmoil in his mind. The scene after the Temple of Ancients, and the Scene after Aerith's death come to mind. He had support throughout the game. They didn't just stand around and fight and do nothing else.

Yeah, immediately after, but who's comforting him regarding the loss of Zack, or his mom, or his family, etc? Yeah, the comforted him after Aerith died, but that was not very long. He had support but that ain't support for him dealing with LIFE post saving the world.

He knew something was wrong, he kept questioning it. Several times in the game his own personality was giving him clues about what was wrong with him. The kid persona at the Honey Bee inn? He unconsciously knew something was wrong.

Yes he was being manipulated by Jenova, but that clearly was not the only thing to it. Cloud was there, just not all the time, he just wasn't aware of what was truly wrong.

Already conceded that so

You still overlook my point, I said he had PLENTY OF TIME TO DO SO, in those two years. I think he should have had some development, he clearly did not.

Two years isn't always enough time, and again, Cloud contracted Geostigma shortly before the start of AC. While he was healthy, things were going well and he was happy. Getting a terminal illness however, can certainly change the ballgame and be a setback dude. Take everything into consideration.

What's hard to believe is that he'd run away from people who want to help him after all that. Unless he thought Geostigma was contagious, then I'd believe it. But I haven't seen anything suggesting that yet.

Yeah, people *did* think the black ichor from Geostigma was contagious and shit. Remember Case of Denzel?

Seven people would constitute a large group imo.

I don't see seven as a large group but okay. Agree to disagree.

No, but a pronounced sense of humor is a very common trait among extroverted people, it's been debated that it isn't prominient in introverts because it draws attention to them or some shit.

But sure, I'll give you that. But I don't see him as being introverted still. He's too confrontational, expressive, and outgoing to be introverted. A period of depressions=/=being an introverted person.

Some of the funniest comics in real life are self proclaimed introverts, just so you know. But Cloud is certainly no extrovert. Zack is the extrovert. Cloud and Zack are thematic opposites. While Zack is outgoing, Cloud is...well, you know

 

[Max Payne]

Yeah, but you still need the actual person there to comfort you, and in the end, it was mostly Tifa trying to support Cloud. Since they were the family and all.

He still had folks looking after him, and seriously Barret was looking out for him all of FF7 like a big brother, and he still hung around with Cloud and Tifa, and called to give them updates and check on everyone.

Yeah, immediately after, but who's comforting him regarding the loss of Zack, or his mom, or his family, etc? Yeah, the comforted him after Aerith died, but that was not very long. He had support but that ain't support for him dealing with LIFE post saving the world.

My point was, people have helped him enough for him to know that he needs help to deal with major issues in his life. He's not stupid, and he knows people have bee there for him and would still do so.

Two years isn't always enough time, and again, Cloud contracted Geostigma shortly before the start of AC. While he was healthy, things were going well and he was happy. Getting a terminal illness however, can certainly change the ballgame and be a setback dude. Take everything into consideration.

Two years is enough time for some development, how much can be contested. Still, if you had been through hell you whole life, and people have supported you through the big tribulations in your life, would you want to be alone?

Yeah, people *did* think the black ichor from Geostigma was contagious and shit. Remember Case of Denzel?

I honestly don't remember that, but I took very little note of Case of Denzel as opposed to the rest of the compilation.

Seven people would constitute a large group imo.

I don't see seven as a large group but okay. Agree to disagree.

Have you ever seen seven people move together in the group? It certainly doesn't look like a few people. But ok.

Some of the funniest comics in real life are self proclaimed introverts, just so you know. But Cloud is certainly no extrovert. Zack is the extrovert. Cloud and Zack are thematic opposites. While Zack is outgoing, Cloud is...well, you know

Ok, sure, you can turn everything on it's head. That's life, that why I said it has been "debated". I don't see Zack and Cloud as all that different. They share a lot of traits, but they have different personalities.

The can both be different and still be extroverts though.

 

[Makoeyes987]

He still had folks looking after him, and seriously Barret was looking out for him all of FF7 like a big brother, and he still hung around with Cloud and Tifa, and called to give them updates and check on everyone.

I'm not saying Barret didn't look after him or support him, but really, Tifa post FFVII is the one doing the most of the supporting. Its cause he's the one he's close to most. She's the one doing most of the supporting.

My point was, people have helped him enough for him to know that he needs help to deal with major issues in his life. He's not stupid, and he knows people have bee there for him and would still do so.

And my point was, was that while people helped him during FFVII, that support wasn't in regards to him starting a life with Tifa or how to become a well adjusted member of society and stuff. It was support to keep him going and moving forward towards saving the world and accepting who he was. Post FFVII, the issues changed. You know, raising a family, finding your place in the world, moving on from the past tragedies, getting over the guilt, etc.

Two years is enough time for some development, how much can be contested. Still, if you had been through hell you whole life, and people have supported you through the big tribulations in your life, would you want to be alone?

Yeah but we all know Cloud didn't *REALLY* want to be alone. He was isolating himself because he had Geostigma, thought he was gonna die, and didn't to be a burden to anyone.

You know, its awfully similar to Zidane's crisis in Pandemonium when he realized the truth of his existence and pushed away everyone close to him while fighting off monsters.

I honestly don't remember that, but I took very little note of Case of Denzel as opposed to the rest of the compilation.

I'm not surprised

But when Denzel first is out on his own, and is comforting a kid who had Geostigma on his back, people warn him not to get close or touch the black ichor because that's how you catch it. Naturally they were wrong, but Denzel didn't care and tried to rub his back and shit. Point being, not many people knew Geostigma wasn't contagious. Cloud may have thought he didn't want to end up giving it to someone or have anyone else see the black ooze coming out of his arm.

Have you ever seen seven people move together in the group? It certainly doesn't look like a few people. But ok.

LOL fair enough.

I don't see Zack and Cloud as all that different. They share a lot of traits, but they have different personalities.

Well the real Cloud doesn't go around trying to be a ladies' man or hit up girls for dates. Or give dating advice. Rate women, etc etc

They're similar but also very different.

 

[Isabella]

Whoa. Damn, y'all.

Cloud doesn't leave 7th Heaven because he doesn't want to be there. He doesn't WANT to be alone. He leaves because in his warped way, he thinks he's protecting them. He may think Geostigma is contagious, but it's more likely he's protecting them from a) the pain of his death, and b) the fact that he can't protect them should they get in danger (in his mind, anyway).

And he is most certainly introverted. He's a textbook case of introversion. Look at his childhood; heck, look what he's doing in AC. He internalizes everything. That's the very definition of introversion. It's not about shy vs. outgoing, it comes down to whether you live inside or outside your head, if that makes sense. Being introverted doesn't mean he never shares with others, that he doesn't have a sense of humor. People can fall anywhere on the extrovert-introvert spectrum. Very few people fall at either extreme.

 

[Max Payne]

I'm not saying Barret didn't look after him or support him, but really, Tifa post FFVII is the one doing the most of the supporting. Its cause he's the one he's close to most. She's the one doing most of the supporting.

After Barret leaves she is, and Marlene to a degree. But he was still there for a while.

And my point was, was that while people helped him during FFVII, that support wasn't in regards to him starting a life with Tifa or how to become a well adjusted member of society and stuff. It was support to keep him going and moving forward towards saving the world and accepting who he was. Post FFVII, the issues changed. You know, raising a family, finding your place in the world, moving on from the past tragedies, getting over the guilt, etc.

And people help you do those things. He learned that in FF7 he needed that. Or at least he should have.

Yeah but we all know Cloud didn't *REALLY* want to be alone. He was isolating himself because he had Geostigma, thought he was gonna die, and didn't to be a burden to anyone.

Then he's an dummy. Isolating himself was helping no one, and he had to know that. Sans contagious bullshit.

You know, its awfully similar to Zidane's crisis in Pandemonium when he realized the truth of his existence and pushed away everyone close to him while fighting off monsters.

Yes, and his friends helped him through it

But when Denzel first is out on his own, and is comforting a kid who had Geostigma on his back, people warn him not to get close or touch the black ichor because that's how you catch it. Naturally they were wrong, but Denzel didn't care and tried to rub his back and shit. Point being, not many people knew Geostigma wasn't contagious. Cloud may have thought he didn't want to end up giving it to someone or have anyone else see the black ooze coming out of his arm.

Then why did he let Denzel stay there? Surely he thought he could infect Marlene or Tifa. Either way, I read that story once and never gave it much more thought.

Well the real Cloud doesn't go around trying to be a ladies' man or hit up girls for dates. Or give dating advice. Rate women, etc etc

Well, like I said they're similar but different.

[quote author=Isabella link=topic=559.msg23244#msg23244 date=1235615574]
Whoa. Damn, y'all.

Cloud doesn't leave 7th Heaven because he doesn't want to be there. He doesn't WANT to be alone. He leaves because in his warped way, he thinks he's protecting them. He may think Geostigma is contagious, but it's more likely he's protecting them from a) the pain of his death, and b) the fact that he can't protect them should they get in danger (in his mind, anyway)[/quote]

That sort of logic makes no sense. He's not doing them any good either way, so it's better to be with the people who care about him. Excluding the contagious bit.

And he is most certainly introverted. He's a textbook case of introversion. Look at his childhood; heck, look what he's doing in AC. He internalizes everything. That's the very definition of introversion. It's not about shy vs. outgoing, it comes down to whether you live inside or outside your head, if that makes sense. Being introverted doesn't mean he never shares with others, that he doesn't have a sense of humor. People can fall anywhere on the extrovert-introvert spectrum. Very few people fall at either extreme.

Cloud may have been introverted during his childhood, but I don't buy that he was that way in FF7. People change and all that. He didn't internalize everything and he didn't live in his head, because his head was a very bad place to be.

Introverts like to keep to themselves, Cloud didn't do that in FF7. At least in my opinion he didn't.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Denzel didn't have Geostigma when Cloud first found him. He got it while he stayed with them in Seventh Heaven.

And well...Cloud's not always the sharpest tool in the chest, dude.

And yeah, lots of people thought it was contagious. It's not inconceivable that'd be one of the reasons. After all, he does hide his bandages that soak up the black Geostigma juice.

 

[Max Payne]

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=559.msg23254#msg23254 date=1235616814]
Denzel didn't have Geostigma when Cloud first found him. He got it while he stayed with them in Seventh Heaven.[/quote]

What? I thought he got it when Reeve's mom died. Fuck I guess I need to read that crap again.

And well...Cloud's not always the sharpest tool in the chest, dude.

Damn, he's not that bad

And yeah, lots of people thought it was contagious. It's not inconceivable that'd be one of the reasons. After all, he does hide his bandages that soak up the black Geostigma juice.

Bet it makes good motor oil.

 

[Makoeyes987]

LOL, might as well wait for the OVA.

A lot of heroes in media pulls shit like that. "I will protect my friends by running and leaving them so they won't get caught up in my own personal bullshit." I mean, it just happens. Hell Zidane even did it in FFIX.

When you're all fucked up and distraught, you kinda turn stupid for a bit and then snap out of it.

And...eww....pussy motor oil doesn't sound like it'd be good for the engine.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I'm willing to bet that Cloud is one of the least intellectually gifted of most of the FF main protagonists. Hell, it's not a bad thing, and it doesn't mean he's stupid. I always got that 'regular ol' country boy' vibe from him, not counting the various psychological issues.