A question I've always had...what's up with the gay stuff?

[Strangelove]

@Glaurung what show is that.

nichijou

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nichijou

 

[Master Bates]

@Glaurung I do find it pretty disturbing in the sense that there are people who are writing and reading that stuff but are not able to separate what they want in fiction vs real life (the sheer ubiquity of this dynamic in erotica also kinda bothers me). Though I don’t think it’s my place to judge people for what fiction they enjoy unless they’re bringing it to real life. Sadly there are a lot of girls getting their “Sex Ed“ from these stories and it’s really disturbing. I remember back in 2008 there were a lot of girls who wished they could have a guy like Edward. No, you don’t! And then they fall into an abusive relationship. No easy fix to this; parents have to set a good example and talk to their kids.

That's why they should just get themselves a dakimakura.

Or dutch wives.

That way, they won't reproduce.

 

[Cat on Mars]

the best censorship is when they put a solid colour bar across part of the penis, like just a black bar across the corona bit (what a name to use in this day and age) but the rest is just a highly detailed, loving drawn penis. like this tiny block obscuring a small part of the penis is actually helping hide the stiff veiny mass visible around it

I don't fully agree, but it's one of the easiest to ignore after a while.
The veiny mass is something I don't understand why people draw, it's fugly.

I don’t have the ability to respond with the word wall it probably deserves.

It doesn't deserves one, imo.

I think that non-PWP yaoi stuff has roots in that history, and I crave better written male-female dynamics, and even better female-female dynamics. I think we’re slowly getting better, though (with the female-female stuff anyway).

Yeah, female/female dynamics have improved substantially from some decades ago. Mainly because there's more stories featuring female protagonists now.

But it doesn't make money.
I mean, I'd love to work on stories with strong and varied relationships between both sexes, but I know very few people are going to put their money where their mouth is.
That's the sad truth, and that's why I find masturbatory meta commentary kinda pointless. People have been conditioned to not give a shit and love abusive relationships in fiction because that's the most interesting portrayal of male/female relationships they know.

 

[looneymoon]

I sometimes don't get this forum. People start to talk about meta commentary, tropes, jungian analysis, and all that stuff...
and when I explain how in all the History of literature male/female relationships haven't been been given space to be more than codified romance, then everybody goes silent.

And then proceed to talk about how Twilight is terrible, like there isn't a link between the lack of literary tradition and that shit.

View attachment 7119

why must you come at me for being lazy

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I talked about relationships and dynamics inside the stories and how male/female relationships are only portrayed in very narrow and specific terms. If anything, you've proven me right citing historical context as the reason of why it's a thing.

Why even bring up historical examples when the entire point is moving beyond the stereotype to create something more nuanced? Yes, male/female relationships happened in very narrow and specific terms for most of human history. The contemporary literature of that time kinda reflects that, and for... understandable reasons; literature reflects the culture that produced it usually. But that isn't how male and female relationships happen now.

And yet modern literature largely still has a male/female relationship sterotype that hasn't changed all that much. Instead of trying to change the sterotype, most people just move on to another one that has the emotional payout they are looking for. On the one hand, that makes the male/female stereotype show up less, on the other hand, it also gives rise to more stereotypes. Which kinda just perpetuates the issue of there being a seterotype writers/readers think a relationship has to fit in in the first place.

 

[Cat on Mars]

Well, it seems we were having different conversations until this point. Now I finally know what you were talking about.

Instead of trying to change the sterotype, most people just move on to another one that has the emotional payout they are looking for. On the one hand, that makes the male/female stereotype show up less, on the other hand, it also gives rise to more stereotypes. Which kinda just perpetuates the issue of there being a seterotype writers/readers think a relationship has to fit in in the first place.

I already answered this, so I'll just quote myself:

I'd love to work on stories with strong and varied relationships between both sexes, but I know very few people are going to put their money where their mouth is.
That's the sad truth, and that's why I find masturbatory meta commentary kinda pointless. People have been conditioned to not give a shit and love abusive relationships in fiction because that's the most interesting portrayal of male/female relationships they know.

 

[Rydeen]

I don't fully agree, but it's one of the easiest to ignore after a while.
The veiny mass is something I don't understand why people draw, it's fugly.



It doesn't deserves one, imo.


Yeah, female/female dynamics have improved substantially from some decades ago. Mainly because there's more stories feature female protagonists now.

But it doesn't make money.
I mean, I'd love to work on stories with strong and varied relationships between both sexes, but I know very few people are going to put their money where their mouth is.
That's the sad truth, and that's why I find masturbatory meta commentary kinda pointless. People have been conditioned to not give a shit and love abusive relationships in fiction because that's the most interesting portrayal of male/female relationships they know.

I sometimes wonder if yaoi (of both pornographic and plot-heavy varieties) is self perpetuating in this way. A cohort of women being tired of formulaic male/female relationships, so they get into yaoi since it can be less formulaic (when it’s not the super heteronormative type). Then they become creators and instead of writing the interesting het they wanted, they write yaoi because it’s what they know, and the cycle repeats. Though of course I am sure there is a large, overlapping cohort of people who don’t like het because they are trying to distance themselves from their gender in general (or distance themselves from the thought that being abused or abusing someone turns them on) so they stick to that. I wonder if there are also people who think that they will be flamed for writing straight romance that doesn’t adhere to the standard. I’m not including the whole more dicks = hot aspect, since that’s a pretty straightforward thing and only applies to porn rather than plot.

Regarding why a lot of people who read het stick to the super simplistic maledom BDSM stuff, I think you’re right that it is pretty conditioned, both from previous things they’ve consumed and also probably from society. But a part of me also wonders if most women are biologically predisposed to be turned on by it.

 

[Cat on Mars]

A cohort of women being tired of formulaic male/female relationships, so they get into yaoi since it can be less formulaic (when it’s not the super heteronormative type). Then they become creators and instead of writing the interesting het they wanted, they write yaoi because it’s what they know, and the cycle repeats.

In Japan this is changing. Women are hopping off the yaoi/BL train and getting into het porn.
Yonekura Kengo made yaoi and switched to hentai magazines because she got fed up of it and its expectations and stereotypes.

But as I already said in a paragraph everybody decided to ignore, western audiences still don't want that kind of material and they won't pay for it.
Consumers get what they pay for.

I don't know why I do even bother with this shit, no one is going to read it anyway.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

western audiences still don't want that kind of material and they won't pay for it.
Consumers get what they pay for.

It's hard to pay for something when no one is writing that kind of material with a major publisher backing it. Which would start an entire discussion on the Weastern Publishing business and how... risk adverse it is. There's a bad feedback loop in publishing where it costs a lot to market a book so publishing houses only want to publish things they know will sell, etc. The independent (and self-publishing) market has a lot more varieties of works, but it has very little marketing power to speak of and almost no quality control.

Which is... probably why you see a lot more video games that try to break story stereotypes then books. Being an indie game developer makes money in a way being an indie fiction writer doesn't. And you see more books breaking story seterotypes than movies, because movies cost even more money to make/market than books do.

There are people who do write books that have things like male/female friendships. It's just that most the ones I read are written by people going the independent publishing route because they are sure no major publishing house would want to publish their story. Mainly because the story they are telling doesn't have the kinds of tropes publishing houses know will be worth the marketing investment.

 

[Cat on Mars]

here's a bad feedback loop in publishing where it costs a lot to market a book so publishing houses only want to publish things they know will sell, etc. The independent (and self-publishing) market has a lot more varieties of works, but it has very little marketing power to speak of and almost no quality control.

So you won't put your money when your mouth is, understood.

You get exactly what you deserve.

 

[Clement Rage]

You're very unlikely to make money as a writer anyway, so you might as well write what you want to see and try to sell it.

 

[Odysseus]

Oh, just one more thing:

nichijou

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nichijou

It's your fault I own these now

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Nobody can plan to earn a living as a writer these days, unless they already have great connections. Even in journalism there are more journalists than paying jobs, and there's always some hack willing to write it for less than you will. Technical and business writing is apparently still in demand and well paid, if you can stand the boredom. I'm so glad I got out of publishing when I did and switched to teaching.

Last year my students and I travelled to Bern to see a feature film directed and produced by an alumna of the school. This woman was subsequently our keynote speaker for graduation. She spoke of her struggles and failures. What she didn't mention was the fact that she comes from a very wealthy and well-connected family who were able and willing to keep underwriting her film-making endeavours until she had a success. And success is relative. This film has won some prizes and made some noise, but I don't think it has broken even.

Nowadays, if you don't come from a family like that, the smart thing to do is train for a career/profession that you won't hate doing and that will keep you fed and clothed. You'll have to do your writing in your spare time.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Nowadays, if you don't come from a family like that, the smart thing to do is train for a career/profession that you won't hate doing and that will keep you fed and clothed. You'll have to do your writing in your spare time.

Solid advice.

Source:
Went to school for career/profession that won't keep one fed and clothed (i.e. journalism), then spent many miserable working years in retail and manufacturing before landing a career/profession I don't hate doing.

With a four year old, I have even less time to think about writing now, but oh well -- I like the people I work with/for, and the work I do is simple, blissfully monotonous, and occasionally interesting.

 

[Strangelove]

will no one rid me of the idle offspring of rich parents taking all the creative jobs

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

It makes me so angry!!!!

 

[Glaurung]

In Japan this is changing. Women are hopping off the yaoi/BL train and getting into het porn.
Yonekura Kengo made yaoi and switched to hentai magazines because she got fed up of it and its expectations and stereotypes.

But as I already said in a paragraph everybody decided to ignore, western audiences still don't want that kind of material and they won't pay for it.
Consumers get what they pay for.

I don't know why I do even bother with this shit, no one is going to read it anyway.

Maybe also because Japanese women are now less willing to distance themselves from their bodies?

And about how the romance genre develops as a market, the main consumer is the female population. In many cases with little to no knowledge of how a healthy relationship works. The disturbing thing is not seeing young, inexperienced women buyinig that product, its seeing middle-aged, married women with no domestic violence background avidly reading and watching that sort of thing. They are bored out of their heads with their husbands and have the wild fantasy of a rich dude manhandling them (something that, should the hubby dared to do it, it cost him being thrown into jail).

Back in the day you had romance novels. I'm not a fan of the genre, because I only like Jane Austen's works, and my other author for these kind of books is Robert W. Chambers (yeah, the dude from the King in Yellow). Both show pairings which are based on love. Not the romantic, stupid kind parodied in Romeo and Juliet, but the kind of relationship based on mutual respect (always following the customs of their respective times). What I admire from Austen is her lessons about how you can ruin your life by marrying the wrong guy or for the wrong reasons... or how you can work your way around it and reach a compromise between hapiness and what you can realistically get (ahem, Charlotte Lucas in Pride and Prejudice).

When I see this I ask myself the same question as @Ryvius: Are women genetically predisposed to let themselves be mistreated by their partner, as long as he's the alpha male?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Well, we're social apes, and like all social apes we are obsessed by status. What happens in a chimp troupe?

 

[Clement Rage]

Fiction requires conflict, so if the relationship is perfect, there's no story (if said story is centred on a relationship). It's not necessarily supposed to be an ideal relationship.

Fiction rules don't necessarily provide good role models. IE. In the event of serial killer attacks, it is probably better to attempt to escape than to hunt down the attacker. But story structure means that you have to defeat the monster before you can escape. This is probably not the correct thing to do in an actual life threatening situation. Relationship writing follows a similar model, taking them as life lessons is probably not good.

 

[Glaurung]

Fiction requires conflict, so if the relationship is perfect, there's no story (if said story is centred on a relationship). It's not necessarily supposed to be an ideal relationship.

Fiction rules don't necessarily provide good role models. IE. In the event of serial killer attacks, it is probably better to attempt to escape than to hunt down the attacker. But story structure means that you have to defeat the monster before you can escape. This is probably not the correct thing to do in an actual life threatening situation. Relationship writing follows a similar model, taking them as life lessons is probably not good.

Agreed, but if you always show the exact same conflict it becomes boring.

I sometimes wonder if people watch some stories only seeking to see a protagonist, not that resonates with them, but that it's their exact clone, not to search for a solution for their personal troubles, but to wallow in the fact that, "whelp, if it happens here then there's no helping me", you know, just to perpetuate the cycle of helplessness.

People are complicated...

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

It's only on the internet, and only in certain corners of the internet at that, where one finds this attitude that fiction's job is to represent the world as it ought to be (good, simple) and not as it actually is (messy, complicated, hard to understand). The role of all art, IMHO, is to hold up a mirror to ourselves. If you don't like what you see, don't blame the mirror.

But I don't really understand where it came from in the first place, this idea that fiction must provide us with admirable role models and every characters must get their just deserts, and the associated notion that somehow an author's characters are stand-ins for the author themself. No author should have to write disclaimers along the lines of, "I know Humbert Humber is a pedophile but I myself do not support pedophilia." Authors should not be expected to make it clear to the reader that they think the bad guys are bad and the good guys are good. That's such a Disney way of thinking.

 

[Clement Rage]

Eh, different art does different things.

The curious thing is that the tropes extend to fanfic, where we can't blame publishers, because it's all self published, with maybe one beta reader tops.