A question I've always had...what's up with the gay stuff?

[Clement Rage]

Maybe it's just hard to find good fem perspective porn, so people write the stuff that they can't be 'corrected' on, or don't want to be accused of
putting themselves in their fantasies.

AO3 puzzles me, because it always seems to go for the most poisonous relationships possible, a la Chris/Wesker or Cloud/Sephiroth.

I ship normal stuff like Lucrecia/Hojo.

 

[Cat on Mars]

Maybe it's just hard to find good fem perspective porn

You have no idea how true this is, be it original works or fanworks.

I ship normal stuff like Lucrecia/Hojo.

You must be the only one with that... tastes. Even the infamous Lucrecia doujin series didn't go there.
EDIT: I was wrong and I hate myself for knowing this.

 

[Odysseus]

You must be the only one with that... tastes. Even the infamous Lucrecia doujin series didn't go there

Do tell, do tell

 

[Cat on Mars]

Do tell, do tell

When you are old enough.

 

[Odysseus]

booooo

 

[Clement Rage]

You must be the only one with that... tastes. Even the infamous Lucrecia doujin series didn't go there.

Is that Ravynne's? I don't think I read that far.

Honestly it just amuses me to try to make Hojo genuinely attractive, as he canonically seems to be, given his beach girl attendants.

 

[Rydeen]

I say beside this girl in film school who was super pretentious about the yaoi she drew. She was a very good artist, but I found it annoying how seriously she took being a giant weeb. For example - she got visibly annoyed whenever the term "yaoi" was uttered. She said it was "vulgar" and claimed that "BL" is the actual term that people use (there were a lot of people there who weren't familiar with anime, and she'd interject with shit like this all the time whenever someone other than her would try to explain stuff like that). One day I got so irritated with one of her pretentious lectures that I couldn't help myself and blurted out, "thats a lot of emotion to describe your gay porn."

It was supposed to be a joking tone but I guess it came out quite bitchy.

Thankfully this was near the end of the term cuz she never spoke to me again I feel a bit bad in retrospect, because I didn't hurt realize until later that I actually hurt her feelings lol. I tried to be extra nice to her throughout the year but I guess she wasn't having it. Oh well.

Was she an ex-Christian? She sounds like she was ashamed of sexuality on some level since she was resistant to calling it porn.

 

[Cat on Mars]

s that Ravynne's? I don't think I read that far.

It's by Kokonoki Nao, and it's pretty graphic.
ETA:

Spoiler: update

Woah, they made like two more parts I hadn't read. Lucrecia gets dicked by Hojo in Part VI.
I was wrong, they went there.
I fuckin knew it goddamn.

 

[looneymoon]

Was she an ex-Christian? She sounds like she was ashamed of sexuality on some level since she was resistant to calling it porn.

I don't think so? I mean, she apparently drew her own, and shared it with her close friends. Judging by her regular art, I suspect it was in that waify, blurred out penis style.

 

[Cat on Mars]

Judging by her regular art, I suspect it was in that waify, blurred out penis style.

The what

 

[Obsidian Fire]

The real solution for writing complex male/female romantic relationships that aren't a straight male power fantasy (or at the very least a more nuanced version) is to come up with a character that is still (a) straight and (b) isn't abusive. Which... becomes a problem if the stereotype for "male more in tune with their emotional side" is read as being gay.

Maaaaybe if hetero relationships were more nuanced and less stereotyped in fiction, that wouldn't happen.

Fiction takes great pains to depict relationships between males in a nuanced, complicated and sometimes adversatorial yet tender way. As you said, it's often the most intense emotional relationship. No wonder fangirls want that, too.

This is exactly what I was talking about. It does no one any good to say "hetro relationships are not written as being nuanced and not being stereotypes, so we might as well not write hetro relationships and only write nuanced non-hetro relationships". That's just setting up more stereotypes...

They (Tifa and Aerith) are, first and foremost, love interests. That's why they are in the story!
I'd argue that Tifa and Cloud's relationship is a bit less stereotypical in the sense that they knew each other and blahblah, but it's not what I was talking about.

Then what were you talking about?

It almost sounds like you're saying a character is doomed to be a stereotype (and nothing else) if they have a certain role in the story as part of their character arc (straight guy's female love interest). In which case, you're pretty much saying a male/female romantic relationship is always doomed to be a stereotype too, even if the creators try to make it not a stereotype!

For a gender-flipped version of what it sounds like you're saying... it would be like saying the reason why Mr. Darcy and Wickham are in "Pride and Prejudice" is to be Elizibeth Bennet's love interests. Even though there's several background plot's worth of character development for both of them.

 

[looneymoon]

The what

...I think this method of penis-censoring has fallen out of favour, because I can't for the life of me find an example. Showing genitalia is illegal in Japan, so a lot of doujins would find creative ways to blur and / or block out penises. I remember in some doujins the dicks would be represented by a glowing white light.

 

[Cat on Mars]

I remember in some doujins the dicks would be represented by a glowing white light.

Ah, lightsaber dicks.
So she didn't even draw dicks lmao

It does no one any good to say "hetro relationships are not written as being nuanced and not being stereotypes, so we might as well not write hetro relationships and only write nuanced non-hetro relationships". That's just setting up more stereotypes...

What are you talking about? Who said that?

Then what were you talking about?

A very simple fact.
In fiction, relationships between males -no matter what type of relationships- are given nuance and depth, even if said relationships can be deemed as "stereotyped".
Now, male/female relationships? Pfffft. Don't make me laugh, you know they aren't even developed if they can't be used for romantic purposes or because they're siblings with the male character.
Think about the classics. The greek tragedies, the epics. Cervantes, Shakespeare, Dumas, you name it.
See what I'm talking about now?

Nowadays, of course, exceptions exist. But they're not the norm, and you're ignoring a broader framework, like, the size of all literature produced ever.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

When I think about Rufus/Tseng, I imagine a power dynamic that is quite fluid ...

 

[Obsidian Fire]

In fiction, relationships between males -no matter what type of relationships- are given nuance and depth, even if said relationships can be deemed as "stereotyped".
Now, male/female relationships? Pfffft. Don't make me laugh, you know they aren't even developed if they can't be used for romantic purposes or because they're siblings with the male character.
Think about the classics. The greek tragedies, the epics. Cervantes, Shakespeare, Dumas, you name it.
See what I'm talking about now?

Really? We're at the level when we're using late 16th and 19th Century Literature as proof that something isn't done? Never mind that society had much more rigid rules about how and when men and women were supposed to interact back then. A man and woman having a platonic friendship wouldn't have been written because such a thing probably wouldn't have gotten a chance to get up off the ground in those days... not to mention how scandalous it would have been.

Nevermind that Shakespeare wrote what was for his era pretty complex female characters. Lady McBeth and Cleopatra are probably the star examples.
Cervantes gets some serious kudos for writing one of the oldest examples of "just because I'm pretty and you men like me doesn't mean you're owed my feelings in return". Actually, Cervantes also does a pretty good job for his era at writing female characters who make sure they live life on their own terms and not other people's.

 

[Cat on Mars]

Yes because obviously current works aren't influenced by tradition at all, what a silly assumption to make from my part.

And honestly, you haven't really rebutted my point at all. I never talked about characters, I talked about relationships and dynamics inside the stories and how male/female relationships are only portrayed in very narrow and specific terms. If anything, you've proven me right citing historical context as the reason of why it's a thing.

I don't expect people to agree with me but at least I'd like to see that my posts are read and undertood.
Oh well. Bye, then.

 

[Torrie]

Whoa, that escalated quickly.

The LTD is a lot less "Which girl does Cloud really love?" and more "Which girl does the audience love?". And when the pairing is treated more like Reader/Girl, then it's a lot easier to reduce it down to a stereotype.

Either this or which heroine a female player feels closer to and therefore would be chosen by the male protagonist if he existed in real life (or if she herself were part of the game).

I really wonder with Sepiroth/Cloud if (a) there is an "audience surrogate character" and (b) if there is, who would it be?

Interestingly, some girls comment on Cloud's suffering scenes, be it at Madame M's or fighting Sephiroth, that he looks "cute" and they would gladly have him suffer all day. That makes me wonder if they have some sort of sadistic attraction, or it's more of a hidden maternal instinct towards a character who happens to have child-like appearance features.

Hang on, that has just reminded me of an article I read years ago, and for the life of me, I can't find the source anymore. The article says that genres like western and criminal portray a homophobic, misogynistic, often racist world of harsh and cynical men who have to fight in ridiculously violent circumstances, which, in most cases, they have created themselves. That leads to the idea that showing vulnerability is allowed only if a man is wounded. It suddenly becomes appropriate to examine someone's body, or hug and shed tears, only if someone is on the verge of death. The author argues that this phenomenon is rooted in Christianity: on the one hand, explicit sexuality is forbidden; on the other hand, there's a half-naked Christ, a suffering St. Sebastian, and some other martyrs. So an average believer basically gets the idea of empathy and the ability to love through idolizing suffering, and, according to the author, that's why looking at a man's wounded body evokes sensations of intimacy, tenderness, worship, and spirituality. If that's the case, then gay prose/art takes it to another level, and Sephiroth/Cloud is an excellent example of such dynamics.

 

[Kai Schulen]

I, uh, don't have any deep meaning for why I like M/M sometimes. For me, it's less about the gender and more about the actual chemistry between the love interests.

Like if you tell me "oh look, M1/F are the official couple because they're in love" and show no examples of their love or barely talk to each other or have meaningful interactions that make me think "oh wow, these two care so much for each other" or show any sort of character or relationship development, I'm not going to believe in it. But if you give me an example of M1/M2 where they have meaningful interactions with each other, have interesting banter, have a clear progression of their character and relationship development -- believe me, I will ship the fucking hell out of it.

Official word can say "oh they're just really good friends, they're not romantically involved", I'm going to call bullshit on that because if one of those male characters was a female character, then those two would be the official OTP.

 

[Strangelove]

why is no one talking about the yaoi holes


(also i watched some video talking about 'yaoi paddles' which were apparently a thing at anime conventions some time back and man what a time to be alive)

anyway here's my disjointed complaints that add nothing to the conversation but are just random things that annoy me in the stories i will occasionally read if i'm feeling really desperate and lonely
- seme/uke being personality types basically analogous to who the 'man and woman' are in relationship
- reliance on 'wow i've never liked ANOTHER MAN before whaaaaaaah??' instead of like. guys who have been in same sex relationships before and we're not being all flustered by two dudes kissing like it's this crazy thing
- predatory gays
- some kind of abusive or even non consensual start to a relationship and it's just fine by the end, no big deal

in conclusion, cautiously stan 'new york new york' even though it did some stuff i smh at i remember mostly liking it. i hope it actually holds up and my memory isn't failing me and i've made a bad recommendation

...I think this method of penis-censoring has fallen out of favour, because I can't for the life of me find an example. Showing genitalia is illegal in Japan, so a lot of doujins would find creative ways to blur and / or block out penises. I remember in some doujins the dicks would be represented by a glowing white light.

the best censorship is when they put a solid colour bar across part of the penis, like just a black bar across the corona bit (what a name to use in this day and age) but the rest is just a highly detailed, loving drawn penis. like this tiny block obscuring a small part of the penis is actually helping hide the stiff veiny mass visible around it

 

[Master Bates]

Well, this thread has been quite educational, although admittedly I still cannot completely grasp about 45.387% of what's being said. I guess this is what happens if one generally divorces themselves from fandom. Gotta say, the stuff written here has given me some context on what I've seen and been seeing during my visits to different fandoms. I'm just not really a fan of fanfiction in general anyway so I tend to not notice these trends, although I have seen them in fanarts.

In my case, I just like some F/F pairings because either they look aesthetically pretty or I as a guy just like both of them, recognize they aren't an item, then move on while occasionally fantasizing. Nothing to agonize myself over. Although I do recognize females shipping M/M might see a different sort of appeal, it's just not something that I can wrap my mind around to.

 

[Glaurung]

One thing I might add about fanficts/bestsellers with M/F pairing and abuse: Don't you see a bit disturbing that said abuse of male on female is often writen and consumed by females? Yes, I'm thinking about Twilight and the 50 shades series, and all the other romance/erotica out there in the last years.

Oh, just one more thing:

 

[Rydeen]

@Glaurung I do find it pretty disturbing in the sense that there are people who are writing and reading that stuff but are not able to separate what they want in fiction vs real life (the sheer ubiquity of this dynamic in erotica also kinda bothers me). Though I don’t think it’s my place to judge people for what fiction they enjoy unless they’re bringing it to real life. Sadly there are a lot of girls getting their “Sex Ed“ from these stories and it’s really disturbing. I remember back in 2008 there were a lot of girls who wished they could have a guy like Edward. No, you don’t! And then they fall into an abusive relationship. No easy fix to this; parents have to set a good example and talk to their kids.

 

[Cat on Mars]

I sometimes don't get this forum. People start to talk about meta commentary, tropes, jungian analysis, and all that stuff...
and when I explain how in all the History of literature male/female relationships haven't been been given space to be more than codified romance, then everybody goes silent.

And then proceed to talk about how Twilight is terrible, like there isn't a link between the lack of literary tradition and that shit.

 

[Odysseus]

@Glaurung what show is that.

 

[Rydeen]

I sometimes don't get this forum. People start to talk about meta commentary, trpes, jungian analysis, and all that stuff...
and when I explain how in all the History of literature male/female relationships haven't been been given space more to be more than codified romance, then everybody goes silent.

And then proceed to about how Twilight is terrible, like there isn't a link between the lack of literary tradition and that shit.

View attachment 7119

I’m interested, my attention is just divided by life stuff at the moment and I’m on mobile, so I don’t have the ability to respond with the word wall it probably deserves.

I do agree strongly that male/female relationships have been largely shoehorned into shallow romance tropes due to a strong division of the sexes throughout history (as well as the fact that most writers were male). I think that non-PWP yaoi stuff has roots in that history, and I crave better written male-female dynamics, and even better female-female dynamics. I think we’re slowly getting better, though (with the female-female stuff anyway).