A question I've always had...what's up with the gay stuff?
- Thread starter Cat Rage Room
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Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
I think it's that people are often too lazy to think outside of labels/stereotypes because well... it is mental work in a lot of cases. And a lot of the time, people don't want to put "work" into what is a power fantasy of some kind.
Making a character that is more than a stereotype requires a lot more thought than just switching out a stereotype that someone doesn't personally like for one that they do. Which is the reason I see a lot of people mentioning they read/write slash fan-fiction. They don't want the toxicity of the straight male power fantasy stereotype, so they swap to a more emotional stereotype instead. But... it's still a stereotype most of the time...
The real solution for writing complex male/female romantic relationships that aren't a straight male power fantasy (or at the very least a more nuanced version) is to come up with a character that is still (a) straight and (b) isn't abusive. Which... becomes a problem if the sterotype for "male more in tune with their emotional side" is read as being gay.
But that means moving beyond stereotypes/labels and actually thinking about characters. Which gets into actual backstory, how that impacts the character, how that character expresses themselve, etc. Heck, it even gets into why there is a toxic stereotype in the first place and thinking why that is a stereotype in the first place. And even why some people like that sterotype and some people don't. Coming up with good characters that aren't stereotypes is... honestly really hard.
In fan-fiction, it's based on another work that already has decided what tropes (and often stereotypes/labels) apply to the characters already. So there's a tendency to go and swap those labels/stereotypes up in pre-defined ways to fit another stereotype/label. It's almost like the fandom has agreed that there is a codified "alternate reading" of a work that gives rise to other stereotypes/labels. This is to the point where I avoid the fan-fiction of certain works because I know what the codified "alternate reading" of a relationship the fandom will have.
Why yes... works that focus on two people who hate each other would be one of those... because as the most important relationship in the story, it obviously must be romantic!
Making a character that is more than a stereotype requires a lot more thought than just switching out a stereotype that someone doesn't personally like for one that they do. Which is the reason I see a lot of people mentioning they read/write slash fan-fiction. They don't want the toxicity of the straight male power fantasy stereotype, so they swap to a more emotional stereotype instead. But... it's still a stereotype most of the time...
The real solution for writing complex male/female romantic relationships that aren't a straight male power fantasy (or at the very least a more nuanced version) is to come up with a character that is still (a) straight and (b) isn't abusive. Which... becomes a problem if the sterotype for "male more in tune with their emotional side" is read as being gay.
But that means moving beyond stereotypes/labels and actually thinking about characters. Which gets into actual backstory, how that impacts the character, how that character expresses themselve, etc. Heck, it even gets into why there is a toxic stereotype in the first place and thinking why that is a stereotype in the first place. And even why some people like that sterotype and some people don't. Coming up with good characters that aren't stereotypes is... honestly really hard.
In fan-fiction, it's based on another work that already has decided what tropes (and often stereotypes/labels) apply to the characters already. So there's a tendency to go and swap those labels/stereotypes up in pre-defined ways to fit another stereotype/label. It's almost like the fandom has agreed that there is a codified "alternate reading" of a work that gives rise to other stereotypes/labels. This is to the point where I avoid the fan-fiction of certain works because I know what the codified "alternate reading" of a relationship the fandom will have.
Why yes... works that focus on two people who hate each other would be one of those... because as the most important relationship in the story, it obviously must be romantic!
Erotic Materia
[CONFUSED SCREAMING]
When you put it that way, Clephiroth would have to be abusive, to maintain the integrity of their character's personalities.
Odysseus
Ninja Potato
- AKA
- Ody
ヽ(°〇°)ﾉ "Oh noes!"
*runs to catch ER's eye bawls*
ε===(っ≧ω≦)っ ⊙ ⊙
*Wicks dem cwean* XP⊙
*inserts ER's dirty, saliva covered eyeballs into their bloody sockets*
"Awwwwlll bettew now friend uwu"
(ﾉ_；)ヾ(´ ∀ ` )
Cat on Mars
Actually not a cat
Same.
Kaomoji was an error.
I could write a lot about this topic but I don't have the time.
I'll just say that there are three reasons I draw my own smut: to horrify and scar people for life, to make money, and because my standards are pretty high and few people are able to reach them.
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Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
It actually doesn't... which is kinda what I was meaning by when I wrote this...
One of the "tendencies" of fandom is to see a highly antagonistic relationship between two people and decide that since that relationship is the most intense emotional relationship in the work, it has to be romantic. And then go and change the character's personalities so it's not as toxic... or just outright do AUs of those two characters meeting under different circumstances all together.
However, the thing that seems to be the cue to the fandom for that to happen to a relationship is that in canon it's the most intense emotional relationship in the work. What the actual nature of the canon relationship doesn't matter because fan-fic is going to be an AU of canon anyway. What matters is if the characters think the relationship is important to them.
Odysseus
Ninja Potato
- AKA
- Ody
This is all your fault you know
Cat on Mars
Actually not a cat
Maaaaybe if hetero relationships were more nuanced and less stereotyped in fiction, that wouldn't happen.
Fiction takes great pains to depict relationships between males in a nuanced, complicated and sometimes adversatorial yet tender way. As you said, it's often the most intense emotional relationship. No wonder fangirls want that, too.
Sure, why not. It's always the shitposter's fault.
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Odysseus
Ninja Potato
- AKA
- Ody
I've noticed a trend in yaoi circles of shipping younger "good" men with "bad/abusive" older men.
Clephirorh is the obvious ff7 example, Eren x Levi exuded in the AoT scene after that scene where Levi kicked Eren's face in, the "innocent" Ciel with his demon butler...
not to mention that 2/3 of those are pedophilia...
I wonder why that is? The power dynamic I assume? Maybe they think the good character can mellow out the bad one?
Clephirorh is the obvious ff7 example, Eren x Levi exuded in the AoT scene after that scene where Levi kicked Eren's face in, the "innocent" Ciel with his demon butler...
not to mention that 2/3 of those are pedophilia...
I wonder why that is? The power dynamic I assume? Maybe they think the good character can mellow out the bad one?
Rydeen
In-KWEH-dible
It could be straight up BDSM, a hurt/comfort dynamic, etc. Perhaps some folks would feel threatened or too close for comfort if it were straight, so they just have a gay abusive dynamic instead.
It’s all just fiction at the end of the day, but personally I find those ships annoying and avoid them. To me it’s basically Twilight and 50 Shades except gay - boring.
Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
Heh... I was literally describing the Sephiroth/Cloud relationship which... is very straightforward and very much a sterotype. Bad guy kills people the good guys cares about, good guy hunts him down. Good guy really hates bad guy who likes messing with good guy.
Meanwhile, Cloud has a nuanced relationship with Tifa and Aerith that very much not a stereotypical relationship if you actually go by how canon describes it.
Although, that does show something about the difference between the two kinds of relationships. In the Cloud/Tifa and Cloud/Aerith relationship, Cloud is the audience surrogate. The Cloud/Tifa and Cloud/Aerith shipping wars get heated usually because they are less about who Cloud wants to be with and more who the individual player[/I] wants to be with. The LTD is a lot less "Which girl does Cloud really love?" and more "Which girl does the audience love?". And when the pairing is treated more like Reader/Girl, then it's a lot easier to reduce it down to a stereotype.
I really wonder with Sepiroth/Cloud if (a) there is an "audience surrogate character" and (b) if there is, who would it be?
I've seen it got the opposite way (bad character "corrupts" the good character) at least as much, if not more.
Which... one of the things that happens in a lot of (bad) romance stories with Unresolved Sexual Tension is one character being put in a place where they're convincing the other character that they'll like being in a relationship with them. This is really common when you have a character that has to "go against x" for the romance to work. Weather that is their family, society... sometimes even their own thoughts on the matter. The better romance stories usually have this coming about because Character A does know what they want, but aren't sure if Character B wants it too. But that's not always the case....
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
Oh yeah I forgot I shipped Erwin and Levi.
I am only interested in ships that are fraught with angst, misunderstandings, unrequited longing, unbalanced power dynamics, general pain and suffering. I also really like love triangles. I am so weak for a fic where Rufus pines after Tseng while Tseng pines after Aerith.
I have 0 interest in cute fluffy romances.
I am only interested in ships that are fraught with angst, misunderstandings, unrequited longing, unbalanced power dynamics, general pain and suffering. I also really like love triangles. I am so weak for a fic where Rufus pines after Tseng while Tseng pines after Aerith.
I have 0 interest in cute fluffy romances.
Erotic Materia
[CONFUSED SCREAMING]
(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
Odysseus
Ninja Potato
- AKA
- Ody
Rydeen
In-KWEH-dible
When I think about Rufus/Tseng, I imagine a power dynamic that is quite fluid and shifting. I think the reason I’m not into it is because I see them as being too guarded to have the kind of flirtatious exchanges/chemistry I like to see, and also extremely stagnant/cold as a couple for the same reason. I like the brother dynamic with them though.
Cat on Mars
Actually not a cat
┬─┬ノ( º _ ºノ)
I put a smaller table there.
Are you fucking kidding me.
They are, first and foremost, love interests. That's why they are in the story!
I'd argue that Tifa and Cloud's relationship is a bit less stereotypical in the sense that they knew each other and blahblah, but it's not what I was talking about.
I must be a weird person because I don't insert myself in fiction so I don't play that game, and I resist it. I'm just a part of the audience.
I only see characters, not vessels for self-fulfillment.
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Rydeen
In-KWEH-dible
I’ve always got the Reader/Girl vibe from certain veins of LTD discussion as well. At least nowadays these types of discourses are just called Waifu Wars, because that’s (not always but) often what they end up being.
I haven’t read any Clephiroth, but I can see how people may be into the mindfuckery there. Since Sephiroth has always had more fangirls, I’m gonna guess that Cloud would be the audience surrogate in most cases. He is the main character, after all. Of course, there are always people who are actually into the actual characters even though they may favor one, so those writers tend to be better.
And if we go Jungian, we can say that all of these archetypes exist holistically in an individual’s mind, which makes all parties a surrogate, and they’re really playing out a relationship with themselves that is heavily veiled as something else as a way to discharge stress.
Cat on Mars
Actually not a cat
This thread in a single gif:
It's not that deep fam.
It's not that deep fam.
Rydeen
In-KWEH-dible
I kinda feel like taking everything at face value is one of the things that’s driving a lot of dysfunction in the world right now. There is ample depth, not just breadth, to the human mind. Obviously there is a limit to what should be analyzed, but I don’t think we’re there yet.
Cat on Mars
Actually not a cat
Hard disagree. I think the exact opposite is happening, people are questioning everything for no fucking real reason. "Why they want me to wear a mask?" "Why did someone said [insert inane comment here], is it because they're a crypto-fascist?"
There always must be a hidden reason! Always.
And that's making everybody go insane.
Yes, but that isn't the question.
The real question is if you're willing to go there, explore it and see where the road takes us, or you've decided on a destination.
The second option isn't debatable. The first can be an interesting topic, albeit a disturbing one.
Personally, I'm not going to fucking go there. I've seen too much of the human mind to know that. If that's what this thread turns into, I'm out.
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Rydeen
In-KWEH-dible
I should reframe. I would argue that the people you are referring to are still taking everything at face value, just of different (even worse) sources. What I'm really talking about is a lack of interest in critical thinking and introspection.
looneymoon
they/them
- AKA
- Rishi
I say beside this girl in film school who was super pretentious about the yaoi she drew. She was a very good artist, but I found it annoying how seriously she took being a giant weeb. For example - she got visibly annoyed whenever the term "yaoi" was uttered. She said it was "vulgar" and claimed that "BL" is the actual term that people use (there were a lot of people there who weren't familiar with anime, and she'd interject with shit like this all the time whenever someone other than her would try to explain stuff like that). One day I got so irritated with one of her pretentious lectures that I couldn't help myself and blurted out, "thats a lot of emotion to describe your gay porn."
It was supposed to be a joking tone but I guess it came out quite bitchy.
Thankfully this was near the end of the term cuz she never spoke to me again
I feel a bit bad in retrospect, because I didn't hurt realize until later that I actually hurt her feelings lol. I tried to be extra nice to her throughout the year but I guess she wasn't having it. Oh well.
It was supposed to be a joking tone but I guess it came out quite bitchy.
Thankfully this was near the end of the term cuz she never spoke to me again
I feel a bit bad in retrospect, because I didn't hurt realize until later that I actually hurt her feelings lol. I tried to be extra nice to her throughout the year but I guess she wasn't having it. Oh well.
Cat on Mars
Actually not a cat
Someone needed to say it and it was you! Good job @looneymoon
I love that kind of comebacks lol
You'll need people to learn how to read before that. People, in general, lack basic reading comprehension.
Years ago, I was reading a book about philosohy and psychology in art theory. One of the quoted authors, whose name I can't remember, said: "I still don't know why I do things."
Go figure.
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