All sympathy lost

[Harley Quinn]

Back when I was ten years old and playing on FFVII all through the game I kept thinking "It's ShinRa and Hojo's fault that Sephiroth is this way." While they did contribute to what I'm assuming a shitty or at least isolating life Sephoroth had before turning bat shit crazy. (The other thing that irks me is that Lucreica doesn't get half the shit Hojo gets for being a awful parent but I guess that's another topic)

So as time went on different FF came out I played on them but always went back to FFVII. I was at that time as well under the impression that Sephiroth was controlled by Jenova it never occurred to me it could be the other way round. As I just saw Sephiroth had this tragic life, he was this over powered great hero that fell from grace but the circumstances weren't his fault. (He did but it he looses it for me. Will explain)

So ACC came out Sephiroth returns briefly and even after seventeen years of playing on the original game I still don't clearly understand what he wants to do with a destroyed planet.

I played CC and it was nice to see Sephiroth before he came a mummy's boy. I absolutely loved CC but there was one huge problem for me one that I wished didn't exist and that was Genesis to me it made Sephiroth's story lessened and it made Sephiroth dumb why didn't he think he was created the same way as Angeal or Genesis? I know he's stronger but when he's in reactor in the original I can understand why he was shocked but not in CC.

And the whole Sephiroth traveled the lifestream and he learnt everything. Including his birth etc and yes he wins the awards for one of the shittiest parents you could have but why does he decide I'm going to destroy everything? I don't understand in CC he isn't crazy and then it comes out of nowhere. I always took that Jenova took over but after the lifestream travel that isn't the case.

Or maybe his parents DNA finally or kicked in or maybe he relates to Jenova more? I don't know but from first playing the game. I truly felt sorry for his man that had been disregarded by his parents even before being born, becoming this over powered SOILDER that had no one, being controlled by a company that didn't care about his well being and then he just snaps and in Nibelheim he got all the wrong information and thinks his people were killed out. Obvisouly he later learns the truth.

I don't know it just seemed out of the blue how he snapped and I know there is a lot of speculation of his childhood and with Angeal and Genesis which I really don't like as part of his story. And I apologise to those who do. And the other thing that irks me of his character is that it's been stated that there is nothing more powerful than Sephiroth in the FFVII world and he isn't going all out on Cloud. I'm sorry but the dude has killed him how many times?! I know the hero has to win but please just leave Sephiroth dead now and my sister thinks he could have redemption but I really think he's past that and doesn't deserve it.

I'm sorry if I have annoyed or offended anyone or if I'm wrong about anything. I was really nervous writing this thread. I do really like Sephiroth he was my favourite character when I first started to play FFVII. But I feel they turned him into a tragic hero into a villain that understands everything regarding his birth (and yes beyond horrible) go and destroy ShinRa the ones that wronged you not the entire planet!

 

[Octo]

Yeah I agree with you. Never made much sense to me. I mean canonically Sephiroth was meant to be the one 'in control' but I'm not so sure.

And rightly so, if he learns that Jenova is not his true mother, that he isn't an ancient and therefore has no legitimate beef with the rest of humanity, yet he still- despite being the one in control of all this power - he still wants to destroy everyone and become a God.

That suggests to me that he was basically an arsehole, he'd always been an arsehole and he jumped at the chance to be a God mode arsehole

Unless of course it was Jenova all along.

 

[Ryuman]

There are probably many people in your position.

It becomes clear to me in the latter part of VII that Sephiroth's own Will becomes stronger than his "mother's". Sure, he thinks he's a Cetra at first, but motivation quickly moves from persecution to a giant God complex. I think it is still possible to reconcile this by generally blaming his genes for giving him bad traits that awaken in him- an instinct to destroy the planet and move on to the next like a disease, just as Jenova did long ago. However, I'd still say this boils him down to just being a bad guy. Not a sympathetic fallen hero, but a monster Shinra lost control of (I guess Genesis was right).

In all honesty I don't feel like I have the best grasp on VII's story and Sephiroth's character (I will make amends when I go through the Compilation and really think about the story and themes), but it does seem a little under-cooked. Anyone more confident in their interpretation think I'm on the right lines here?

This is one of the things I hope the Remake really brings together, but I feel that Sephiroth's story will always be kind of weird to some- and certainly not what they thought it to be.

 

[Harley Quinn]

Yeah I agree with you. Never made much sense to me. I mean canonically Sephiroth was meant to be the one 'in control' but I'm not so sure.

And rightly so, if he learns that Jenova is not his true mother, that he isn't an ancient and therefore has no legitimate beef with the rest of humanity, yet he still- despite being the one in control of all this power - he still wants to destroy everyone and become a God.

That suggests to me that he was basically an arsehole, he'd always been an arsehole and he jumped at the chance to be a God mode arsehole

Unless of course it was Jenova all along.

I agree Octo and I truly think it fits the story better that Jenova inhabits Sephiroth as there is nothing more powerful with its cells. And it adds to Sephiroth's tragic life, crappy parents, crappy life, finds Jenova gets controlled and then him being remembered as a hero is smeared in alien feces and now is feared and hated.

Then again the only thing that doesn't seem to fit Jenova is toying with Cloud I always saw it as if it deemed something as a threat to eliminate it straight away like it did with the Cetra.

But I never understand Sephiroth toying with Cloud either. He became super obsessed with Cloud. Which I found odd for his character as well as Sephiroth seemed the type to avoid people as much as he could but after loosing it he is obsessed with Cloud and I know Cloud defeated him and this hurt his pride. But it never made sense to me. It makes Sephiroth come across really dumb and something I never attributed to him. I always thought it wasn't just Sephiroth's strength or magic use that made him feel different from other people but I always thought it was his intelligence as well but maybe I'm just reaching he didn't put two and two together in CC and his dad did try mating a dog beast thing with a Cetra/human.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

The Compilation kind of threw Sephiroth under a bus. In the OG he was a magnificent evil bastard, but the Compilation strips his actions of most coherence and sense. Somehow, in the OG it wasn't difficult to believe in him, if you know what I mean, but it's difficult to believe in Compilation Sephiroth. One can really see the writers pulling his strings.

Don't worry about expressing your opinions here! Even if some people don't agree with your thoughts, they will still respect your right to express them. Also, some of us really enjoy juicy long-winded meandering arguments about canon and its interpretation!

 

[ForceStealer]

While I always thought it was an interesting thought experiment, I never subscribed to the "Jenova is in control" theory, though I know a lot of people really like it. As you say, it simply doesn't jibe with the many of the more emotional decisions Sephiroth makes.

The official line is that Sephiroth is in control. And I still think that makes more sense, HIS will seems to be the strong one, especially if you include Advent Children. After Jenova was defeated she wasn't able to reach out through her previous victims in the Lifestream over the course of 2,000 years, but Sephiroth could. Just as Cloud is extraordinary and capable to producing absurd amounts of spirit energy, so too is Sephiroth and his will to accomplish his goals.

As he explains in FF7, he doesn't want to utterly destroy the planet, he wants to cause a wound serious enough that he can absorb and command the Lifestream. To "become a god, to rule over every soul." Basically so he can create the world in whatever image he so chooses. Maybe because he thought the world treated him shitty and thought he could make a better one, or maybe he simply was always a cocky bastard ("I always knew I was different...") and given this opportunity, he'll take it.

By Advent Children, his original plan failed, he can't summon Meteor again, so he can't cause a wound significant enough to absorb all the Lifestream. So instead he's just going to choke off the Lifestream and crash the planet into another one and take over THAT Lifestream.

And here is where I've pointed this out before - I think the "is Sephiroth or Jenova in control" question misses the point. Jenova is literally a part of Sephiroth's DNA. Crashing a planet into another to become a parasite on a new world is what Jenova does, but I don't think Jenova is necessarily making Sephiroth do this. But he now has the same instincts that that creature does.

As for the obsession with Cloud - Case of Lifestream Black (see hereon our site) explains that focusing on his hatred for Cloud is what allowed him to prevent himself from becoming diffused into the Lifestream, as it required a powerful enough emotion. But that's after Cloud ruined his plan.

In FF7, I don't think he was obsessed with Cloud. Now absolutely derived enjoyment from messing with him, but stringing Cloud along makes sense. As Hojo observes, Cloud was the only Sephiroth copy that worked! He was the only one strong enough to do what Sephiroth needed him to. All the others were reduced to near-catatonic states (or wholly unaffected in Zack's case), Cloud's false persona he built up for himself made him the perfect candidate.

 

[Kionae]

Yeah I agree with you. Never made much sense to me. I mean canonically Sephiroth was meant to be the one 'in control' but I'm not so sure.

And rightly so, if he learns that Jenova is not his true mother, that he isn't an ancient and therefore has no legitimate beef with the rest of humanity, yet he still- despite being the one in control of all this power - he still wants to destroy everyone and become a God.

I think Sephiroth has a perfectly valid reason to have a beef with humanity. Remember, at the same time he learns Jenova isn't his mother, he also learned EXACTLY who and what he is. He's not an ancient... but he's not really human, either. He's a science experiment. Moreover, he's a science experiment bred by humans specifically to study a non-human creature (Jenova).

I would debate the idea that its canon that Sephiroth was in control the whole time. I think in the end he TOOK control, or at least some of it... because he deemed himself too powerful to be controlled, even by Jenova. I'm of the opinion that the two of them ultimately had to reach a compromise in order to attain a common goal.

I agree Octo and I truly think it fits the story better that Jenova inhabits Sephiroth as there is nothing more powerful with its cells. And it adds to Sephiroth's tragic life, crappy parents, crappy life, finds Jenova gets controlled and then him being remembered as a hero is smeared in alien feces and now is feared and hated.

But did he really have a "crappy" life? I mean... he was told that his mother had died. And it's never really specificed what, if anything, he was told of his father. He was raised without knowing his parents in any way, beyond being told the name "Jenova". And he grew up to be not only a great solider, but a world-renown one, and hero to millions. Even taking the later additions the Compilation made to his backstory into consideration... until that day in Nibelheim, his life seems like it was pretty sweet.

And then he learns the truth, loses his Ifrit-forsaken mind, and goes nuclear on the town. I mean... that was CLEARY a psychotic break. It wasn't Jenova's influence or pent up anger. The sudden discovery that he wasn't who he'd been led his whole life to believe he was broke him.

Also bear in mind... he honestly thought he was part Ancient at that point.... because Shinra/Hojo believed that Jenova was an Ancient. It wasn't until later, in the Lifestream, that he would have discovered the truth.

But I never understand Sephiroth toying with Cloud either. He became super obsessed with Cloud. Which I found odd for his character as well as Sephiroth seemed the type to avoid people as much as he could but after loosing it he is obsessed with Cloud and I know Cloud defeated him and this hurt his pride. But it never made sense to me. It makes Sephiroth come across really dumb and something I never attributed to him. I always thought it wasn't just Sephiroth's strength or magic use that made him feel different from other people but I always thought it was his intelligence as well but maybe I'm just reaching he didn't put two and two together in CC and his dad did try mating a dog beast thing with a Cetra/human.

I think Sephioth's obsession with Cloud stems from his disdain for humanity. He considered himself superior to humans... but was still defeated by a lowly human. So when Cloud became one of Hojo's specimens, Sephrioth saw it as poetic justice. The lowly human that tried (and failed) to kill him was now nothing more than a Jenova puppet who didn't even remember who he really was. Sephiroth derived a sadistic pleasure from stringing him along, tempting him with the truth.

Because that's ultimately what Sephiroth became. A sadist who wanted the world to suffer for the crime of creating him.

 

[Harley Quinn]

Did Sephiroth have a bad life? Well if you take into consideration we don't know about his childhood which some people believe he was subjected to experiments through his childhood or the other theory is that he was raised in military school. Which I don't have an opinion either.

But let's take CC into consideration Sephiroth is reversed and doesn't open up very easily. His two only "friends" leave and don't explain why. Then one of these "friends" turn up and they're like "Sephiroth your the ultimate monster and your just an experiment that's why your so powerful there's nothing special about you just the fact that the experiment that was used on you worked but can I have some of your cells?"

As for his fame to me this seemed unwanted from him and as for his life a lot of is conjecture but do you really think ShinRa gave him a life of luxury while growing up?

And yes Sephiroth should have beef with the people that did this to him, no doubt. But the entire planet? No Sephiroth learnt the truth in the lifestream and still decided the planet owed him.

And I still think he snapped pretty quickly but again I think Jenova influenced him then and I know Sephiroth is in control of Jenova and makes sense that he overpowered it. But as I said before aspects of Sephiroth's character I find confusing.

 

[Harley Quinn]

And as for me saying it was parents DNA finally kicking in that was me trying to be funny.

 

[Kionae]

Did Sephiroth have a bad life? Well if you take into consideration we don't know about his childhood which some people believe he was subjected to experiments through his childhood or the other theory is that he was raised in military school. Which I don't have an opinion either.

But let's take CC into consideration Sephiroth is reversed and doesn't open up very easily. His two only "friends" leave and don't explain why. Then one of these "friends" turn up and they're like "Sephiroth your the ultimate monster and your just an experiment that's why your so powerful there's nothing special about you just the fact that the experiment that was used on you worked but can I have some of your cells?"

Being reserved and introverted isn't necessarily a sign of abuse or even a tragic upbringing. I'm quite reserved and introverted myself, with few close friends, and had a very happy childhood.

His friends don't just 'leave'. Genesis is injured in training, and shortly thereafter leads the truth about himself (and that he is dying). He later deserts and disappears. Angeal disappears when they send him to find Genesis.

Genesis doesn't accuse Sephiroth of being a monster. He simply agrees with Sephiroth's own analysis. Genesis refers to himself is a monster, too, and to Sephiroth as 'perfect'. On top of that, Genesis is very much descending into madness himself at that point.

As for his fame to me this seemed unwanted from him and as for his life a lot of is conjecture but do you really think ShinRa gave him a life of luxury while growing up?.

Actually... yes, I do. At least to some extent. I mean... think about it. Even the Turks, who are relatively minor in terms of influence in the company, are exceptionally well-paid. Tseng says so in CC.

Remember, this is a business we're talking about, not a government. Their model is one of reward and extravagance. Just look at their company headquarters... It's huge, it's posh, it's got an entire floor dedicated to relaxation and another to the company gym.

Shinra, regardless of their questionable ethics, treats their employees well. And Sephiroth is an employee. A very valuable one, in fact, because of his fame. It stands to reason that it would be in their best interest to keep him happy.

And yes Sephiroth should have beef with the people that did this to him, no doubt. But the entire planet? No Sephiroth learnt the truth in the lifestream and still decided the planet owed him.

The problem here is that you're trying to rationalize irrational thought. I maintain that Sephiroth was completely and utterly mad after Nibelheim. And because he learned that Jenova had once tried to destroy the planet, he assimilated that goal and named himself her successor.

And I still think he snapped pretty quickly but again I think Jenova influenced him then and I know Sephiroth is in control of Jenova and makes sense that he overpowered it. But as I said before aspects of Sephiroth's character I find confusing

I don't think he snapped "quickly" at all. In the game, he spends days reading through Hojo's archives, learning the truth, not sleeping, not eating, not leaving the mansion. It wasn't instantaneous. He was given information, he researched it farther, and he ultimately couldn't deal with it in a sane and rational way, resulting in a psychotic break and a murderous rampage.

 

[Harley Quinn]

Did Sephiroth have a bad life? Well if you take into consideration we don't know about his childhood which some people believe he was subjected to experiments through his childhood or the other theory is that he was raised in military school. Which I don't have an opinion either.

But let's take CC into consideration Sephiroth is reversed and doesn't open up very easily. His two only "friends" leave and don't explain why. Then one of these "friends" turn up and they're like "Sephiroth your the ultimate monster and your just an experiment that's why your so powerful there's nothing special about you just the fact that the experiment that was used on you worked but can I have some of your cells?"

Being reserved and introverted isn't necessarily a sign of abuse or even a tragic upbringing. I'm quite reserved and introverted myself, with few close friends, and had a very happy childhood.

His friends don't just 'leave'. Genesis is injured in training, and shortly thereafter leads the truth about himself (and that he is dying). He later deserts and disappears. Angeal disappears when they send him to find Genesis.

Genesis doesn't accuse Sephiroth of being a monster. He simply agrees with Sephiroth's own analysis. Genesis refers to himself is a monster, too, and to Sephiroth as 'perfect'. On top of that, Genesis is very much descending into madness himself at that point.

As for his fame to me this seemed unwanted from him and as for his life a lot of is conjecture but do you really think ShinRa gave him a life of luxury while growing up?.

Actually... yes, I do. At least to some extent. I mean... think about it. Even the Turks, who are relatively minor in terms of influence in the company, are exceptionally well-paid. Tseng says so in CC.

Remember, this is a business we're talking about, not a government. Their model is one of reward and extravagance. Just look at their company headquarters... It's huge, it's posh, it's got an entire floor dedicated to relaxation and another to the company gym.

Shinra, regardless of their questionable ethics, treats their employees well. And Sephiroth is an employee. A very valuable one, in fact, because of his fame. It stands to reason that it would be in their best interest to keep him happy.

And yes Sephiroth should have beef with the people that did this to him, no doubt. But the entire planet? No Sephiroth learnt the truth in the lifestream and still decided the planet owed him.

The problem here is that you're trying to rationalize irrational thought. I maintain that Sephiroth was completely and utterly mad after Nibelheim. And because he learned that Jenova had once tried to destroy the planet, he assimilated that goal and named himself her successor.

And I still think he snapped pretty quickly but again I think Jenova influenced him then and I know Sephiroth is in control of Jenova and makes sense that he overpowered it. But as I said before aspects of Sephiroth's character I find confusing

I don't think he snapped "quickly" at all. In the game, he spends days reading through Hojo's archives, learning the truth, not sleeping, not eating, not leaving the mansion. It wasn't instantaneous. He was given information, he researched it farther, and he ultimately couldn't deal with it in a sane and rational way, resulting in a psychotic break and a murderous rampage.

I'm not saying introverted people means they have had a bad or neglected upbringing. My point is I hardly see ShinRa investing time and money into Sephiroth's emotional well being and I think most people can agree regardless how he was brought up it was far from normal.

And in the scene in the reactor Sephiroth questions "Am I even a human being."
Genesis response is "No such luck your the perfect monster." Then goes onto mock Sephiroth for never have even seen his mother, just been told her name and then tells him how Jenova was extracted from over a 2000 year old rock. And then after all this he goes on and asks for Sephiroth's help. And yes it can be argued because of the degradation that Genesis is loosing his marbles but honestly Genesis always came across as a spoilt douche bag to me. Especially in the scene where they all "fight."

Did Sephiroth live in luxury when the company saw his potential? More than likely. Sephiroth deemed a very valuable asset to ShinRa. But during his childhood? I doubt it.

Again I agree with the whole loosing his mind at Nibilheim not after traveling the lifestream.

 

[Kionae]

I'm not saying introverted people means they have had a bad or neglected upbringing. My point is I hardly see ShinRa investing time and money into Sephiroth's emotional well being and I think most people can agree regardless how he was brought up it was far from normal.

But I would argue that an upbringing that is "not normal" doesn't necessarily result in a completely fucked up human being. I actually think that Shinra would be VERY interested in Sephiroth's mental fitness, given that he was one of the highest ranking members of it's military unit.

Shinra's primary concern is its bottom line. Putting a lunatic in a position of power... particularly a well-respected war hero that, should he defect and wish to take half the military with him, could probably do so... would not be in line with their goals.

And in the scene in the reactor Sephiroth questions "Am I even a human being."
Genesis response is "No such luck your the perfect monster." Then goes onto mock Sephiroth for never have even seen his mother, just been told her name and then tells him how Jenova was extracted from over a 2000 year old rock. And then after all this he goes on and asks for Sephiroth's help. And yes it can be argued because of the degradation that Genesis is loosing his marbles but honestly Genesis always came across as a spoilt douche bag to me. Especially in the scene where they all "fight."

I think that's up to interpretation to some extent.

I don't think Genesis is mocking Sephiroth in that scene. I think he's trying to force him to see that they're the same. He wants very much for Sephiroth to join him... and to save him. But his method doesn't have the desired effect.

You're right about Genesis being a bit of a douchebag... but I think that's from living in Sephiroth's shadow. His comment, before the three-way fight, is something along the lines of "The world needs a new hero". To me, he comes across as something of a little brother who can't quite measure up to his older siblings, and acts out accordingly. There's no malice in it... just frustration and jealousy.

Did Sephiroth live in luxury when the company saw his potential? More than likely. Sephiroth deemed a very valuable asset to ShinRa. But during his childhood? I doubt it.

Again I agree with the whole loosing his mind at Nibilheim not after traveling the lifestream.

Admittedly, it's a little bit of conjecture on my part, but while he probably wasn't treated like royalty, I don't think he was living in a lab being experimented on day after day, either. I think he was shielded by Gast, possibly even raised by him.

Based on the way he speaks of him, Sephiroth appears to respect and admire and even miss Professor Gast:

"...now I see, Hojo. But, even doing this, will never put you on the same level as Professor Gast."

"Professor Gast... Why didn't you tell me anything? ...Why did you die?"

Once Gast was out of the picture, Sephiroth likely came to Shinra's attention for his abilities rather than his status as a lab specimen.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

As for his fame to me this seemed unwanted from him and as for his life a lot of is conjecture but do you really think ShinRa gave him a life of luxury while growing up?

I agree with Kionae that they did. He probably wasn't as absorbed with fame as Genesis, who resented him, but he was very well taken care of and had luxuries like using an entire bottle of shampoo for his hair each day (this is mentioned in the fanclub e-mails from CC).

And I still think he snapped pretty quickly but again I think Jenova influenced him then ...

I agree with this, and I think the canon supports it. The Ultimania Omega guidebook mentions that Hojo wanted Sephiroth sent to Nibelheim because he wanted to find out what would happen if Sephiroth got close to Jenova.

And when Seph starts considering the possibility that he was created as some science experiment, he's -- at least to me -- visibly reacting to something entering his mind. The effect is even more exaggerated in Crisis Core's depiction -- go to the 2:00-minute mark in this video:

Now, after all this, when he travels the Lifestream, learns what he really is, and is still an epic doucher, yeah, at this point I think he's just doing what you said you were kidding about:

And as for me saying it was parents DNA finally kicking in that was me trying to be funny.

But it's Jenova's DNA kicking in, like Force has mentioned. He's decided he's superior to the rest of humanity, and he's doing what Jenova would do.

 

[Harley Quinn]

I'm not saying introverted people means they have had a bad or neglected upbringing. My point is I hardly see ShinRa investing time and money into Sephiroth's emotional well being and I think most people can agree regardless how he was brought up it was far from normal.

But I would argue that an upbringing that is "not normal" doesn't necessarily result in a completely fucked up human being. I actually think that Shinra would be VERY interested in Sephiroth's mental fitness, given that he was one of the highest ranking members of it's military unit.

Shinra's primary concern is its bottom line. Putting a lunatic in a position of power... particularly a well-respected war hero that, should he defect and wish to take half the military with him, could probably do so... would not be in line with their goals.

And in the scene in the reactor Sephiroth questions "Am I even a human being."
Genesis response is "No such luck your the perfect monster." Then goes onto mock Sephiroth for never have even seen his mother, just been told her name and then tells him how Jenova was extracted from over a 2000 year old rock. And then after all this he goes on and asks for Sephiroth's help. And yes it can be argued because of the degradation that Genesis is loosing his marbles but honestly Genesis always came across as a spoilt douche bag to me. Especially in the scene where they all "fight."

I think that's up to interpretation to some extent.

I don't think Genesis is mocking Sephiroth in that scene. I think he's trying to force him to see that they're the same. He wants very much for Sephiroth to join him... and to save him. But his method doesn't have the desired effect.

You're right about Genesis being a bit of a douchebag... but I think that's from living in Sephiroth's shadow. His comment, before the three-way fight, is something along the lines of "The world needs a new hero". To me, he comes across as something of a little brother who can't quite measure up to his older siblings, and acts out accordingly. There's no malice in it... just frustration and jealousy.

Did Sephiroth live in luxury when the company saw his potential? More than likely. Sephiroth deemed a very valuable asset to ShinRa. But during his childhood? I doubt it.

Again I agree with the whole loosing his mind at Nibilheim not after traveling the lifestream.

Admittedly, it's a little bit of conjecture on my part, but while he probably wasn't treated like royalty, I don't think he was living in a lab being experimented on day after day, either. I think he was shielded by Gast, possibly even raised by him.

Based on the way he speaks of him, Sephiroth appears to respect and admire and even miss Professor Gast:

"...now I see, Hojo. But, even doing this, will never put you on the same level as Professor Gast."

"Professor Gast... Why didn't you tell me anything? ...Why did you die?"

Once Gast was out of the picture, Sephiroth likely came to Shinra's attention for his abilities rather than his status as a lab specimen.

I agree with that but I'm failing to put my point across what I meant is before they realised Sephiroth was a successful experiment (as I'm pretty sure that they wouldn't be sure of that straight away) do you really think they truly cared about his mental well being then?

And correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Sephiroth the youngest of the three? Genesis just seemed to have a chip on his shoulder to me before he even knew of the experiments. Or maybe I'm just being bias because I literally cannot stand his character.

I do like the idea of Gast being a influence in Sephiroth's life.

 

[Harley Quinn]

As for his fame to me this seemed unwanted from him and as for his life a lot of is conjecture but do you really think ShinRa gave him a life of luxury while growing up?

I agree with Kionae that they did. He probably wasn't as absorbed with fame as Genesis, who resented him, but he was very well taken care of and had luxuries like using an entire bottle of shampoo for his hair each day (this is mentioned in the fanclub e-mails from CC).

And I still think he snapped pretty quickly but again I think Jenova influenced him then ...

I agree with this, and I think the canon supports it. The Ultimania Omega guidebook mentions that Hojo wanted Sephiroth sent to Nibelheim because he wanted to find out what would happen if Sephiroth got close to Jenova.

And when Seph starts considering the possibility that he was created as some science experiment, he's -- at least to me -- visibly reacting to something entering his mind. The effect is even more exaggerated in Crisis Core's depiction -- go to the 2:00-minute mark in this video:

Now, after all this, when he travels the Lifestream, learns what he really is, and is still an epic doucher, yeah, at this point I think he's just doing what you said you were kidding about:

And as for me saying it was parents DNA finally kicking in that was me trying to be funny.

But it's Jenova's DNA kicking in, like Force has mentioned. He's decided he's superior to the rest of humanity, and he's doing what Jenova would do.

No I was joking about Sephiroth going bat shit crazy and that maybe his Hojo and Lucrecia's DNA finally kicking in. This was all jest and nothing to do with the Jenova influence.

My point of this thread was in the original I did have sympathy for Sephiroth but with the compilation it's fizzled out and his reasons for hating the planet just seem quite frankly lame to me. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Nomura even say he didn't understand why fans felt sorry for him?

I know there's people who feel sorry him, which is obviously totally fine and some people even want to see him have his redemption story. Which I'm dead against. I'm not bashing Sephiroth he was one of my favourite FF character but the more the compilation went into his story the less awesome he seemed to me but this is just my opinion.

 

[Kionae]

I agree with that but I'm failing to put my point across what I meant is before they realised Sephiroth was a successful experiment (as I'm pretty sure that they wouldn't be sure of that straight away) do you really think they truly cared about his mental well being then?

Ah. In that case. No, they probably didn't. But, as I said, I think there were others in his life, like Gast, who DID. And even if Shinra didn't know he was destined for greatness, the Jenova Project was a major undertaking. There were very few living specimens... and they DID see to it that both Genesis and Angeal grew up with (relatively) normal childhoods, after all.

And correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Sephiroth the youngest of the three? Genesis just seemed to have a chip on his shoulder to me before he even knew of the experiments. Or maybe I'm just being bias because I literally cannot stand his character.

I'm honestly not certain who is chronologically younger. I don't think it's ever specified whether Jenova Project G came before Project S, or if the two were running concurrently. I just think Genesis, behaviorally speaking, seems younger... just as Angeal seems like the eldest in most instances.

 

[Harley Quinn]

I agree with that but I'm failing to put my point across what I meant is before they realised Sephiroth was a successful experiment (as I'm pretty sure that they wouldn't be sure of that straight away) do you really think they truly cared about his mental well being then?

Ah. In that case. No, they probably didn't. But, as I said, I think there were others in his life, like Gast, who DID. And even if Shinra didn't know he was destined for greatness, the Jenova Project was a major undertaking. There were very few living specimens... and they DID see to it that both Genesis and Angeal grew up with (relatively) normal childhoods, after all.

And correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Sephiroth the youngest of the three? Genesis just seemed to have a chip on his shoulder to me before he even knew of the experiments. Or maybe I'm just being bias because I literally cannot stand his character.

I'm honestly not certain who is chronologically younger. I don't think it's ever specified whether Jenova Project G came before Project S, or if the two were running concurrently. I just think Genesis, behaviorally speaking, seems younger... just as Angeal seems like the eldest in most instances.

Didn't Genesis grow up in a rich family? And wasn't project G the first Jenova experiment? Which made Genesis the first experiment? Then Angeal then Sephiroth?

 

[Obsidian Fire]

The S Project comes after the G Project. The reason why they did the S Project in the first place was because someone decided the G Project failed. Which is why Genesis and Angeal are off in the country instead of at Shin-RA HQ. While Shin-Ra does want to keep an eye on them, they've already written them as not being as important as Sephiroth is.

Given how mistaken everyone was over what Jenova is, I highly suspect the scientists didn't actually know what they were looking at in either project. It's no wonder they turned out like they did.

I pity Sephrioth right up to the point where he figures out what Jenova actually is in the Lifestream. Do I think he really over reacted when he burned Nebelheim? Yeah, but it's a pretty understandable overreaction all things considered. Once he figures out the truth about the Cetra though... well, if he was just going after Shin-Ra after that I'd still pity him. It's the fact that he goes after the Lifestream that's an issue.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

No I was joking about Sephiroth going bat shit crazy and that maybe his Hojo and Lucrecia's DNA finally kicking in. This was all jest and nothing to do with the Jenova influence.

I got your joke; I'm just saying you're right. But about Jenova's genes.

 

[Harley Quinn]

The S Project comes after the G Project. The reason why they did the S Project in the first place was because someone decided the G Project failed. Which is why Genesis and Angeal are off in the country instead of at Shin-RA HQ. While Shin-Ra does want to keep an eye on them, they've already written them as not being as important as Sephiroth is.

Given how mistaken everyone was over what Jenova is, I highly suspect the scientists didn't actually know what they were looking at in either project. It's no wonder they turned out like they did.

I pity Sephrioth right up to the point where he figures out what Jenova actually is in the Lifestream. Do I think he really over reacted when he burned Nebelheim? Yeah, but it's a pretty understandable overreaction all things considered. Once he figures out the truth about the Cetra though... well, if he was just going after Shin-Ra after that I'd still pity him. It's the fact that he goes after the Lifestream that's an issue.

Thank you ☺ and I know because at first didn't they think Sephiroth would lead them to the Promised Land?

I felt sorry for him up to that point and like I said before when I first played the game I felt sorry for him throughout as I kept thinking "It's ShinRa and Hojo's fault not Sephiroth's" while they are largely to blame, and if we went after them I'd still pity him as well but I just don't understand Sephiroth travelled the lifestream and still decided to carry on with his plan. This is where I fail to understand him.

 

[Harley Quinn]

No I was joking about Sephiroth going bat shit crazy and that maybe his Hojo and Lucrecia's DNA finally kicking in. This was all jest and nothing to do with the Jenova influence.

I got your joke; I'm just saying you're right. But about Jenova's genes.

Haha sorry I had a dumb moment there

 

[Clement Rage]

I thought the original logic was something like 'save the Planet by destroying it' because the 'traitors' were harming the planet, so he had ultimately similar goals to AVALANCHE. Then he lost the thread a bit.

There are dozens of ways you can imagine Sephiroth's upbringing, all could be supported by canon. But luxurious or not, it doesn't have to be pleasant. As Shinra's best weapon, he was probably in the thick of the fighting for most of his life, which is enough to mess up someone even if they started out stable. His friends have to be all powerful enough to also survive that environment, which means he will have few, and losing them could be very damaging.

I thought that Sephirioth was first, and then Hollander tried to copy that project, an it didn't work as well for him.

 

[Harley Quinn]

I thought the original logic was something like 'save the Planet by destroying it' because the 'traitors' were harming the planet, so he had ultimately similar goals to AVALANCHE. Then he lost the thread a bit.

There are dozens of ways you can imagine Sephiroth's upbringing, all could be supported by canon. But luxurious or not, it doesn't have to be pleasant. As Shinra's best weapon, he was probably in the thick of the fighting for most of his life, which is enough to mess up someone even if they started out stable. His friends have to be all powerful enough to also survive that environment, which means he will have few, and losing them could be very damaging.

I thought that Sephirioth was first, and then Hollander tried to copy that project, an it didn't work as well for him.

I always thought his goal was before being killed by Cloud in the reactor was he
wanted to take back the planet from the traitors. As he thought he was a Cetra then and I took it as he wanted to kill all humans not literally destroy the planet. As he believed then that the planet belonged to the Cetra.

I always thought as Sephiroth having a military upbringing maybe less harsh when Gast was around and then once Hojo took over it became more harsh? I know some people who think he was brought up as a lab rat which I do think he had Hojo keeping a very close eye on him but didn't have him living in the labs as some believe. But this is all opinion based.

According to FFwiki (not the greatest source I know) Hollander injected his wife with the Jenova cells. Genesis came along was deemed a failure then Angeal also a failure. Project G was deemed a failed project.

Project S had the cells put into a human fetus and this Jenova project was deemed a success.

 

[cun10294]

Hmmm, when I look closer to this case, it's kinda brings the feel that because they had made Sephiroth becomes the iconic great villain in the original so they can't change that fact in other complications anymore. Like, imaging they create another spin-off of FF7 that take after DC which Sephiroth comeback and know everything and be the nice guy again (because geez, ain't Jenova the true big bad here). It could actually be logical if they have a nice explain. But they couldn't do it, even if they want to (and they actually did, by showing how nice he is before the crisis in CC), because the old fans will totally feel betrayed and that would also destroy the iconic image of Sephiroth himself. In some ways it does feel like as long as Cloud keeps being the main character, they will have to keep bringing back Sephiroth and try to think of any kind of explaínation (even thought it may sound stupid) for them to fight each other again, because duh, it's iconic.

In some case, I have been wondering what if they gave Sephiroth another chance right in the original (like Kadaj in AC being purified after all), and shown Jenova as the final boss instead of him, would everything now go on a different route?

 

[ForceStealer]

The weird thing with the feeling sorry for Sephiroth/Jenova-in-control thing is this:

On the one hand people resent that hte Compilation brought with it (through interviews) the news that Sephiroth is the one in control. But a lot of those same people resent that the Compilation "weakened" Sephiroth by showing his backstory - Anakin/Vader style.

But, surely the Jenova-is-in-control position is far more sympathetic towards Sephiroth, no? Maybe I'm missing a part of the argument, but to me I think it's harder on Sephiroth to blame him for everything than to think Jenova was forcing him to do so and otherwise he'd just be a swell guy.