Alternate Plot Interpretation

[Neo Bahamut]

From there, it's just putting two and two together to conclude that these other consciousnesses have come from the worlds that got squished together.

You guys have a terrible habit of missing the point. He also says that he wonders if they are spirits that already exist, or ones that are meant to exist. So no, that conclusion is not just "putting 2 & 2 together."

Your interpretation calls for everybody in existence getting reduced to free-floating consciousnesses, and then a few of them being given physical bodies and becoming the heroes and villains -- while some others become the manikin enemies -- through experimentation by Cid, yes?

I never said anything about any of that. In fact, I have my doubts that the original dimensions even existed yet. As for the source of the consciousness, it would be the heroes/villains, as that's the form they take when given--well--form.

Instead of -- as you appropriately put it -- going batfuck insane and just randomly trying to kill everyone, he just dicks around with Zidane. In FFIX, after finding out about his mortality, Kuja didn't even care about Zidane anymore

.

Well, after Ultimecia tells him that, he teams up with "the destroyers," as the Emperor would call them.

For that matter, I have to question why he would even believe what the obviously evil bitch who obviously doesn't like him has to say. And still wonder how she would even know.

It's anyone's guess, but the important thing is how he reacts.

But, yeah, I'll give you that it sounds like it would fit. Without an Ultimania that would explain that line -- and Dissidia's Ultimania doesn't include a Story Playback section that summarizes its story, as many Ultimanias do -- I can't contest this particular matter about Kuja any further.

Somewhat off-topic, but this is why the Ultimania for Dissidia kinda burns my ass. It's all trivia. It doesn't tell you anything useful about the story, which is quite possibly the most confusing thing ever.

It's probably the strongest point in favor of your theory, actually.

Bitchin'. I'm not sure I agree, but I do think it might be compelling enough to edit into the FAQ.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

You guys have a terrible habit of missing the point. He also says that he wonders if they are spirits that already exist, or ones that are meant to exist. So no, that conclusion is not just "putting 2 & 2 together."

I think I mentioned this on another occasion, but I'm not terribly concerned about that line because of how we're already dealing with time displacement. Cloud and Sephiroth lived thousands of years after Tidus and Jecht, while Ultimecia lived at least hundreds after Squall.

Dissidia's "point" in time -- if it can even be said to have one -- very well may have been between any of those times, before all of them, or after all of them. It really doesn't matter.

I'm more concerned with the "where" of the consciousnesses' origins than the "when."

Well, after Ultimecia tells him that, he teams up with "the destroyers," as the Emperor would call them.

True.

It's anyone's guess, but the important thing is how he reacts.

I'm starting to feel like what Ulty was talking about and -- depending on what it is -- how she knew it are the biggest mysteries of the whole game.

Somewhat off-topic, but this is why the Ultimania for Dissidia kinda burns my ass. It's all trivia. It doesn't tell you anything useful about the story, which is quite possibly the most confusing thing ever.

I agree. The Ultimania is cool for what it is, but it's an amazing disappointment at the same time.

Dissidia's story was needlessly convoluted, no matter what interpretation one takes of it. For that matter, I think that they were probably making it up as they went along.

Did you know the Chaos Reports in the English version of the game -- and, consequently, in the Universal Tuning edition released in Japan afterward -- are completely different from those in the initial Japanese release? I can't remember if we've talked about that or not, given all we've gone over.

But, yeah, the story was drastically different before. Rather than being occasionally unclear, the original Chaos Reports were nothing short of cryptic, random philosophical musings that conveyed next to nothing in making sense of the plot.

Bitchin'. I'm not sure I agree, but I do think it might be compelling enough to edit into the FAQ.

Oh, you most certainly should.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

I'm more concerned with the "where" of the consciousnesses' origins than the "when."

Fair enough.

I'm starting to feel like what Ulty was talking about and -- depending on what it is -- how she knew it are the biggest mysteries of the whole game.

I still have a Space Needle over the geography & how Cloud of Darkness was defeated.

I can't remember if we've talked about that or not, given all we've gone over.

No, we haven't talked about that yet.

Oh, you most certainly should.

I did, but it was kind of half-assed. This probably won't be the final version, though, so meh.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

NB, I've been looking at some scans of the Dissidia Ultimania to try to find anything illuminating on the topics we've been discussing. There's not a lot said about the story, sadly, and I still have more to look at, but I think I've at least found indication of what the intention for the characters is.

On pg. 658 there's this line included in the description of the Secret Ending: "このイベントは、戦士たちがそれぞれの世界へ帰ったあとの、コスモスの様子を描いたもの。"

That says: "This event depicts Cosmos's status after the warriors have returned to each world."

Here's a link to a scan of the page (courtesy of Mako/Paradox):
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/1294/picture010df.jpg

As I said, I still have more to look through, but I think that this confirms that the warriors returned to their own worlds following Dissidia's story -- and would, thus, confirm that they are the genuine articles.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Also, a thought occurs to me that may explain Kuja's shock at learning of his mortality a second time -- and may also explain Ultimecia's knowledge of it.

Golbez and Ultimecia both have their memories of the previous turn of the cycle, right? Upon waking, Firion initially couldn't recall what the Wild Rose is, for whatever reason (I'd speculate that it's because of his death in the previous cycle -- this would be the same reason Squall had forgotten Rinoa).

Golbez planted the Wild Rose next to Firion prior to his awakening in the current cycle so as to stir his feelings and cause him to remember his dream (Garland: "His feelings bloom within him. Was the flower your idea?"). For Golbez to have known about the rose, it stands to reason that Firion had recalled it in a previous turn of the cycle and had spoken of it.

What if Kuja was part of the previous cycle -- despite being new to the war, we're not told that he's brand new -- and knew of his mortality then (assuming it was even still in effect for his revived body), mentioned it to the other villains, and then died before the end of that turn of the cycle. Ultimecia, who survived, would remember him mentioning this, but Kuja may not recall it himself upon being restored, the same as Firion and Squall had forgotten things that were extremely important to them.

Things then pick up from where we see them in the game, with Ultimecia informing Kuja about his mortality -- though, as I speculated, it may not have even applied any longer. Perhaps she was just trying to fuck with his head and set him off on Zidane. When he disappears, she does say, "What a pathetic child... But perhaps he can handle the little monkey."

I think this would explain all the dangling loose ends about Kuja being a "flawed vessel," as well as Ultimecia's knowledge of it.

What do you think?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

NB, thought I'd let you know that I translated Kuja's profile from the Ultimania. Here it is:

http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/8126/picture002gt.jpg
魔法文明の星で生まれ、別の星の生命を滅ぼす゛死神゛の使命を背負った男。弟のような存在であるジタンを憎み、彼をワナにハメて絶望の淵にたたき落とそうとする。残虐かつ傲慢なナルシストで、自分で自分の言葉に酔いがち。雲突くほどに高いプライドを持つ反面、自分が周囲に劣るのではないかとの恐れも抱いており、ふとしたはずみに暴走しそうなあやうさを抱える。

"A man born on a planet with a magical civilization, and who shouldered a mission as an 'angel of death' to destroy the life of another planet. He despises Zidane, who is something like his younger brother, and tries to trap him in the depths of despair. He has a tendency to get intoxicated on his own words, and is a cruel, arrogant narcissist. That said, he fears being inferior to those around him, and so his extreme pride can cause him to act impulsively and recklessly."

[Note: "angel of death" was actually "death god"/"shinigami" (think "Bleach") in the Japanese version of FFIX]


The Ultimania definitely treats this Kuja as the original.

 

[Ryushikaze]

So, yes. Ultimania says the heroes returned home and Kuja's the same as the FFIX original. No Heroic Xeroxes here. Alternate plot idea is not valid. Time to move on.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

The amnesia angle is something I've been given recently. In fairness, I have yet to come up with any real counter argument, but I haven't been examining it for very long.

So, yes. Ultimania says the heroes returned home and Kuja's the same as the FFIX original. No Heroic Xeroxes here. Alternate plot idea is not valid. Time to move on.

Umm...no. This is certainly better, but on Kuja's part, it's still just a description of his personality/involvement in the original game. I, for one, am not even sure how Kuja could end up on Chaos's side if he was just plucked from his world at the end of FFIX. He has a very clear change of heart at the end of the game.

As for returning home, even I said they would do that. After all, they must be going SOMEWHERE.

To illustrate what I mean:

As I said, I still have more to look through, but I think that this confirms that the warriors returned to their own worlds following Dissidia's story -- and would, thus, confirm that they are the genuine articles.

It certainly confirms that the warriors went home, but it does not necessarily follow that the individuals themselves did any travelling. As usual, I have to liken it to the Nobodies, specifically how Roxas & Namine return to Sora & Kairi at the end of Kingdom Hearts. Roxas is, for all intents & purposes, Sora without memories.

So, I am still somewhat skeptical. I suppose the answers would depend on what the Ultimania says about the Reports. In the meantime, I have a few things to look through myself. Before that, though, can I trouble you for the Japanese form of the line from the opening, about the different realms?

 

[Neo Bahamut]

My apologies for the TL;DR double-post, but regarding the amnesia angle, I've found something interesting:

Sephiroth: "Garland... Do you have any memories from before you woke?"
Garland: "...Why do you ask?"
Sephiroth: "We often hear that memories can be suppressed. Watching him, I
find myself thinking... Perhaps we are born knowing everything, but are only
allowed to live after having had that knowledge sealed away."
Garland: "..."
Sephiroth: "One more question... When I awoke, I saw a dragon with an
unearthly glow. What was that?"
Garland: "...What makes you think I would know the answer?"

This seems to suggest that the characters do, in fact, have amnesia upon waking up. I was not really sure before & I still have some doubts. After all, it's not brought up often, and even when it is, it's pretty vague. The word "nostalgia," after all, does not imply amnesia, or even forgetfulness.

The reason I still have some doubts is this:

I'm trying not to grasp at straws here, but the plot is near impossible to reconcile. Everywhere you turn, you seem to come upon something that doesn't add up. This quote, for instance: While it appears to suggest that the characters do have complete amnesia upon awakening into the new cycle, it neglects to explain how these characters all know each other already.

It's not really an isolated problem, either.

Sephiroth: "All you've ever wanted was to cling to old memories."

So...yeah. The ultimania even backs this up by stating that Cloud's actions are driven by his memories of Zack and Aerith.

This last quote is from Destiny Odyssey VII-4. I'm not sure whether or not that's significant.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Umm...no. This is certainly better, but on Kuja's part, it's still just a description of his personality/involvement in the original game.

Well, this is actually his Dissidia profile. It mentions his voice actor above the main paragraph, mentions his alternate outfit at the bottom of the page, and in the screenshot below the main paragraph, it showcases a scene from Dissidia and says, "He prefers to employ a pretentious, exaggerated style of speech. His pride is greater than that of most, and he endures with cunning the surroundings his current circumstances have placed him in":

芝居じみた仰々しい言いまわしを好んで使用。人一倍プライドが高く、それだけに、まわりの者に軽んじられる現状を耐えがたく惑じている。

Notice also that the main paragraph speaks of how Kuja spends his time in Dissidia trying to make Zidane despair. This profile is definitely talking about both Kuja in Dissidia and in the original game.

I, for one, am not even sure how Kuja could end up on Chaos's side if he was just plucked from his world at the end of FFIX. He has a very clear change of heart at the end of the game.

In fairness, the same question applies to Golbez. As near as Dissidia implies, he was never really on Chaos's side at any point. He's very much treated as Golbez post-FFIV.

I guess Chaos just sucks at picking pawns. XD

It certainly confirms that the warriors went home, but it does not necessarily follow that the individuals themselves did any travelling.

I'm not sure I understand.

As usual, I have to liken it to the Nobodies, specifically how Roxas & Namine return to Sora & Kairi at the end of Kingdom Hearts. Roxas is, for all intents & purposes, Sora without memories.

But it's said there that they return to their actual worlds.

So, I am still somewhat skeptical. I suppose the answers would depend on what the Ultimania says about the Reports.

It doesn't have much to say about them at all, sadly. Just how to get them, that getting all of them unlocks the Secret Ending, and then this little tidbit of nothingness:

すべてのレポ―トを読めば、「ディシディアFF」の世界にまつわる大きな謎が解き明かされるようだが……？

"When all the reports are read together, big mysteries regarding DissidiaFF's world seem to be unraveled, but ...?"

In any event, while there's little on the reports themselves, the comment regarding the Secret Ending -- which becomes available after acquiring the reports -- is conclusive.

In the meantime, I have a few things to look through myself. Before that, though, can I trouble you for the Japanese form of the line from the opening, about the different realms?

次元のかなたに君臨する二柱の神は
数多の世界から招いた戦士達を率いて
熾烈な戦いを繰り広げていた。

I'm trying not to grasp at straws here, but the plot is near impossible to reconcile.

It has presented quite the challenge, hasn't it?

There was really no reason it had to be this damn convoluted. I can't help but wonder if it seemed clearer to the development team. Maybe they thought it wasn't so muddy. Or maybe they just like fucking with fans and making them piece shit together.

That said, I feel like we've definitely got things pinned down now. The amnesia plot element -- while annoying -- does seem to explain away quite a few of our discrepancies; most importantly, Ulty's conversation with Kuja.

And I guess some degree of amnesia was necessary for the plot to work given that those who died in the previous turn of the cycle needed to not carry over their memories so that there could be the plot twist about the cycle. It seems like the amnesia can spread to other memories as well, though (Firion's Wild Rose, Rinoa, possibly Kuja's mortality).

While it appears to suggest that the characters do have complete amnesia upon awakening into the new cycle, it neglects to explain how these characters all know each other already.

I got the impression that the closest we see to them awakening at the beginning of the current cycle is Firion's flashback of waking up to find the Wild Rose next to him and not knowing what it is right away:

Tidus: So...what's the wild rose, huh?"
Firion: "Heh... I was just thinking about that myself."

[Flashback]
WoL: "Where did that come from?"
Firion: "No idea... It was here when I woke up. Cosmos, do you know?"
Cosmos: "I do not. But I do sense something special about it. It seems to have come from a distant past..."
Firion: "Wild rose... Just saying the name gives me a sense of nostalgia..."

That scene seems to have taken place before Silent Presage 2, where Firion and Warrior of Light already knew each other. That, of course, then led into the battle from the opening FMV, then Cosmos's "Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi" broadcast, then the DOs and SI.

So, there probably was a round of introductions, but we just never saw it.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

This profile is definitely talking about both Kuja in Dissidia and in the original game.

Which is kind of what one would expect it to do, regardless. Manikin or not, they're still the same characters. It would be as though you had a clone: You would expect it to mirror your behavior and thought processes quite closely.

In fairness, the same question applies to Golbez.

The difference between Golbez & Kuja is that Golbez retains his new personality. Kuja just goes exactly back to the way he was for no apparent reason.

But it's said there that they return to their actual worlds.

Don't Roxas and Namine end up back in Destiny Islands shortly after returning to Sora and Kairi?

"When all the reports are read together, big mysteries regarding DissidiaFF's world seem to be unraveled, but ...?"

I suppose I would agree with that, but the problem with trying to tell plot crucial details with "reports" like this is--well, exactly what's going on right now.

That said, I feel like we've definitely got things pinned down now. The amnesia plot element -- while annoying -- does seem to explain away quite a few of our discrepancies; most importantly, Ulty's conversation with Kuja.

I'm still not entirely sure. Does the Ultimania even say anything about amnesia? In any of the character profiles, for instance?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Which is kind of what one would expect it to do, regardless. Manikin or not, they're still the same characters. It would be as though you had a clone: You would expect it to mirror your behavior and thought processes quite closely.

Here's the thing. If the main characters of Dissidia Final Fantasy, were nothing more than manikins...artificial life forms, then the actual profiles of the characters in its plot would be more than likely to say something about it.

You're not acknowledging the fact that neither the plot, nor the Ultimania guide even hints or backs up your theory about any of the characters being manikins at all. The guide refers to Kuja as having originated from a "planet with a magical civilization." This is the original Kuja from FFIX. That's who he is, period.

The difference between Golbez & Kuja is that Golbez retains his new personality. Kuja just goes exactly back to the way he was for no apparent reason.

Again, as Tres explained. Kuja dying in the previous cycle would cause him to suffer from amnesia just like others characters who did. The fact that Kuja is inherently bad and narcissistic would also help in him not being a very nice person again.

Don't Roxas and Namine end up back in Destiny Islands shortly after returning to Sora and Kairi?

Thing is, is that the KH2 Ultimania and plot of KH2 goes on to explicitly state Roxas and Namine are nobodies, and doesn't treat them as the genuine article, or deceive the reader into thinking they're anything BUT who they say they are. Your comparison doesn't fit. If these people were manikins/nobodies/heroic xeroxes/etc, something somewhere would've been said.

I'm still not entirely sure. Does the Ultimania even say anything about amnesia? In any of the character profiles, for instance?

Yes, it does. The actual game does too. Sephiroth suffers from amnesia temporarily because he killed himself in the previous cycle. And dying causes ones memories to get lost or sealed.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Umm...no. This is certainly better, but on Kuja's part, it's still just a description of his personality/involvement in the original game.

And it again refers to the DISSIDIA Kuja as having the exact same history as the FFIX Kuja, as well as noting his personality is the same as it ever was.

I, for one, am not even sure how Kuja could end up on Chaos's side if he was just plucked from his world at the end of FFIX. He has a very clear change of heart at the end of the game.

Jecht and Golbez are also on Chaos' side.

As for returning home, even I said they would do that. After all, they must be going SOMEWHERE.

To illustrate what I mean:

It certainly confirms that the warriors went home, but it does not necessarily follow that the individuals themselves did any travelling.

So, assume the aparsimonious for the sake of aparsimony?

As usual, I have to liken it to the Nobodies, specifically how Roxas & Namine return to Sora & Kairi at the end of Kingdom Hearts. Roxas is, for all intents & purposes, Sora without memories.

Roxas is his own individual, even when he 'merges' with Sora.
And he IS literally a distinct individual thanks to the BBS special ending.

So, I am still somewhat skeptical.

You're skeptical that the heroes returning home are actually returning home and are instead doing something bizarre, esoteric, and aparsimonious?

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Here's the thing. If the main characters of Dissidia Final Fantasy, were nothing more than manikins...artificial life forms, then the actual profiles of the characters in its plot would be more than likely to say something about it.

What you are not acknowledging is the fact the Ultimania is not being nearly as specific as you're expecting it to. You keep going with this mantra that, "If it's part of the plot, it's in the Ultimania."

I will agree that it is that way for the Compilation entries, and probably in most cases, but that is not what we're seeing in this case. We're not seeing explanations of the Reports. We're not seeing an explanation as to whether Dissidia comes before or after FF1. And I've still yet to see that explanation of Sephiroth's motivation in Dissidia from the Ultimania.

Truth is, if it were half as specific as you're expecting, I should not be able to argue at all. I should see something like, "'Those whose faith in themselves wavered' refers to the Manikins which attained physical form" and go, "Well, fuck. It was a great idea while it lasted."

You're not acknowledging the fact that neither the plot, nor the Ultimania guide even hints or backs up your theory about any of the characters being manikins at all.

Now you're overexaggerating. I can see thinking that the conclusion is incorrect, but to say "nothing anywhere even hints at it" is clearly wrong.

The guide refers to Kuja as having originated from a "planet with a magical civilization." This is the original Kuja from FFIX. That's who he is, period.

Cid questions whether or not the dimensions even exist yet. Is it really that far-fetched to say that we are getting a general Kuja copy? Even taking that line into account, the Manikin would have came from Kuja.

Again, as Tres explained. Kuja dying in the previous cycle would cause him to suffer from amnesia just like others characters who did. The fact that Kuja is inherently bad and narcissistic would also help in him not being a very nice person again.

I'm not so sure I buy that. At the end of the game, Kuja teleported Zidane and his friends out of harm's way just because he regretted what he'd done. Zidane even says that, in the same position, he may have reacted the same way as Kuja.

The amnesia is a possible explanation. In fact, he seems to really only enter into the scheming after Ultimecia fucks with his head. My question, though, would be why he was helping Chaos before that. Even Jecht had a reason.

Your comparison doesn't fit.

Yes, it does. Nowhere did I say "everything about the Nobodies is exactly the same as what I'm talking about." It's a basic fact of analogies that it's never going to be exactly the same. If it were, it would be like saying, "An apple is like an apple." Comparing one thing to itself. Comparing something to itself...serves no function. "Cherries taste like cherry" tells you nothing.

I'm trying to demonstrate a point. Nitpicking the details is self-defeating. To reiterate, if the consciousness of the warriors came from existing (or soon-to-exist) people & returned there after the war of the gods, it fits.

Yes, it does. The actual game does too. Sephiroth suffers from amnesia temporarily because he killed himself in the previous cycle. And dying causes ones memories to get lost or sealed.

The Reports DO say "some pawns were reborn retaining memories of their previous lives." I suppose it's not a stretch to say that they could gain them ex post facto, or that every pawn has its memory erased. Thus far, I will give you that.

In similar regards to wording, the Reports say "within the created pawns were some whose faith in themselves wavered." As the Manikins weren't being used yet and "pawns" is always used in reference to the Warriors, I think that means something.

Parsimony:

Adoption of the simplest assumption in the formulation of a theory or in the interpretation of data, especially in accordance with the rule of Ockham's razor.

The simplest assumption is the assumption that takes all factors into account & explains them the most simply. If the idea that the heroes were the genuine article were a parsimonious explanation, we would not be having this discussion. To be fair, amnesia goes a long way towards explaining apparent indescrepencies. However, we are still having problems applying this explanation. I am not "assuming for the sake of assuming." Again, I have quotes. I even saw fit to mention one just above this.

And, lastly, if you can tell me with a straight face that Dissidia never tosses mindfucks at its audience, then I never want to be stuck playing Poker against you.

 

[Makoeyes987]

What you are not acknowledging is the fact the Ultimania is not being nearly as specific as you're expecting it to. You keep going with this mantra that, "If it's part of the plot, it's in the Ultimania."

What? Actually, it is. Why are you not accepting the fact that your theory is wrong, and not supported? For Christ's sake, if it were there, it'd be in the book that's about the game and its story. No, dude. There is nothing there about them being manikins, and if they were manikins, it'd say so. Now you're just making claims without any basis.

I will agree that it is that way for the Compilation entries, and probably in most cases, but that is not what we're seeing in this case. We're not seeing explanations of the Reports. We're not seeing an explanation as to whether Dissidia comes before or after FF1. And I've still yet to see that explanation of Sephiroth's motivation in Dissidia from the Ultimania.

So Dissidia's Ultimania is the exception cause you say so. The reports don't need to be explained in order to justify or acknowledge that these heroes are not real. The fact the Ultimania confirms that yes, Chaos won the last war, the heroes were defeated last cycle, and that the resulting loss of Chaos's memories causes him to become unstable and destructive, is enough confirmation of Dissidia's main plot that there needs to be. Again. Why would it just so conveniently leave out such a significant part of the plot such as...oh..the characters not being real? You need to stop trying to wiggle out of being proven wrong.

None of Kingdom Heart's Ultimania guidebooks dissect or explain each of their respective reports, one by one.

The FFVII Ultimania didn't explain the motivation for Red XIII denying the fact Bugenhagen died and how he lied to Cloud and the others when they ask. I guess the creators just had too much faith in their fanbase figuring out the obvious? Ultimanias don't dissect every single plot point. It only talks about the facts that it feels are worth creator commentary and exploration.

Truth is, if it were half as specific as you're expecting, I should not be able to argue at all. I should see something like, "'Those whose faith in themselves wavered' refers to the Manikins which attained physical form" and go, "Well, fuck. It was a great idea while it lasted."

You're only arguing about it cause you can't let go.

Now you're overexaggerating. I can see thinking that the conclusion is incorrect, but to say "nothing anywhere even hints at it" is clearly wrong.

Nothing in the Ultimania hints at it. And to be honest, you're leaping to conclusions anyways.

Cid questions whether or not the dimensions even exist yet. Is it really that far-fetched to say that we are getting a general Kuja copy? Even taking that line into account, the Manikin would have came from Kuja.

No, manikins do not come from the originals. And when did Cid question...whether or not the dimensions even exist?

I'm not so sure I buy that. At the end of the game, Kuja teleported Zidane and his friends out of harm's way just because he regretted what he'd done. Zidane even says that, in the same position, he may have reacted the same way as Kuja.

So Kuja having a deathbed moment of kindness makes Kuja a hero and a nice guy forever? That's realistic.

The amnesia is a possible explanation. In fact, he seems to really only enter into the scheming after Ultimecia fucks with his head. My question, though, would be why he was helping Chaos before that. Even Jecht had a reason.

Because Chaos told him to and he has no choice.

Yes, it does. Nowhere did I say "everything about the Nobodies is exactly the same as what I'm talking about." It's a basic fact of analogies that it's never going to be exactly the same. If it were, it would be like saying, "An apple is like an apple." Comparing one thing to itself. Comparing something to itself...serves no function. "Cherries taste like cherry" tells you nothing.

The analogy was not only inaccurate, but not even close.

I'm trying to demonstrate a point. Nitpicking the details is self-defeating. To reiterate, if the consciousness of the warriors came from existing (or soon-to-exist) people & returned there after the war of the gods, it fits.

The devil is in the details. And no. The game, Ultimania, and everything else says the characters went back to their WORLDS...their UNIVERSES...not back to existing people. Jesus.

The Reports DO say "some pawns were reborn retaining memories of their previous lives." I suppose it's not a stretch to say that they could gain them ex post facto, or that every pawn has its memory erased. Thus far, I will give you that.

....That was in reference to Ultimecia, Mateus, and Kefka. Pawns of Chaos who were able to remember the previous cycle and use that memory to their advantage. I'm seriously wondering, did you play this game yourself?

In similar regards to wording, the Reports say "within the created pawns were some whose faith in themselves wavered." As the Manikins weren't being used yet and "pawns" is always used in reference to the Warriors, I think that means something.

Yeah, a reference to the manikins. Manikins are created from the lost souls of those who were lost in the resulting dimensional collapse thanks to Chaos. The weak willed and weak minded served as the fodder for manikin experimentation. How you figure this equates to the heroes and villains, is beyond me. The entire Chaos Report 5 talks about manikins. Cid refers to the pawns of Cosmos and Chaos differently.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Again. Why would it just so conveniently leave out such a significant part of the plot such as...oh..the characters not being real? You need to stop trying to wiggle out of being proven wrong.

You haven't proved me wrong at all. You're not even being honest with yourself. One minute you say that, if it were important to the plot, it would be mentioned. Both Tres & I are recognizing that it's leaving out a lot of details.

The Chaos/Cosmos Reports are important plot elements. According to your logic, the Ultimania should explain them. It doesn't. I don't even see how you can just brush them off by saying, "They don't need justification." Hell, if these things are so self-evident, then why do the Ultimanias exist in the first place?

No, manikins do not come from the originals. And when did Cid question...whether or not the dimensions even exist?

Not the dimensions itself. My apologies, that was a misspeak on my part. He questions whether or not the consciousnesses exist.

So Kuja having a deathbed moment of kindness makes Kuja a hero and a nice guy forever? That's realistic.

Oh, come on. You can make unsubstantiated claims about the characters' "true nature," but when I point out indescrepencies in your viewpoint, this is the best you can come up with? Not only that, it's not even responding to the part about Zidane.

Because Chaos told him to and he has no choice.

Golbez had a choice.

The analogy was not only inaccurate, but not even close.

Sure it was. You're not being stubborn at all.

....That was in reference to Ultimecia, Mateus, and Kefka. Pawns of Chaos who were able to remember the previous cycle and use that memory to their advantage. I'm seriously wondering, did you play this game yourself?

What the Hell are you even bitching about here? I was agreeing with you. Are you really so impatient to lash out at me that you can't even bother to check whether or not I'm saying that you have a point?

How you figure this equates to the heroes and villains, is beyond me. The entire Chaos Report 5 talks about manikins. Cid refers to the pawns of Cosmos and Chaos differently.

That could be because you ignore any detail I give out until you occasionally feel the need to pop in & tell me how stupid I am, and even then, you only pay attention to about half of them.

You didn't even address my point at all. In particular emphasis to the bold, that's my point. Isn't it odd that he refers to this group that questions itself as "pawns," when you yourself back up the claim that he'd been referring to the Warriors and the created beings separately up until this point?

"The devil is in the details," as you said earlier.

 

[Makoeyes987]

You haven't proved me wrong at all. You're not even being honest with yourself. One minute you say that, if it were important to the plot, it would be mentioned. Both Tres & I are recognizing that it's leaving out a lot of details.

Tres acknowledged that the Dissidia Ultimania offered little detail on the reports in the story. Don't twist his words. It treats the extent reports just like any other Ultimania treats it. It leaves it up to the player to figure out.

The Chaos/Cosmos Reports are important plot elements. According to your logic, the Ultimania should explain them. It doesn't. I don't even see how you can just brush them off by saying, "They don't need justification." Hell, if these things are so self-evident, then why do the Ultimanias exist in the first place?

They aren't that hard to understand. The only reason you're having trouble with it because you don't want to accept the fact the game treats the characters as original, and you find fault with it. Again, none of the Ultimanias ever go and dissect every report or piece of writing. See Kingdom Hearts. They publish Ultimanias to cover the shit that they (i.e. the creators) feel are important. That's solely their discretion. Pretty damn funny that none of the Compilation guidebooks even bother to cover the G-Reports either.

Not the dimensions itself. My apologies, that was a misspeak on my part. He questions whether or not the consciousnesses exist.

...And how does this prove that the characters are fakes? He's philosophically musing on the numerous lost entities that drift between the dimensions.

Oh, come on. You can make unsubstantiated claims about the characters' "true nature," but when I point out indescrepencies in your viewpoint, this is the best you can come up with? Not only that, it's not even responding to the part about Zidane.

Any particular reason why you believe a person who's sole purpose in life was to manipulate, kill, and incite ruin onto a civilization, would somehow magically change, after just one deathbed conversation? Especially when a majority of their life was focused on hating another? You really think that's true? If so, that seems a bit naive.

People don't just change over night, dude.

Golbez had a choice.

No, he didn't. He was never a warrior of Cosmos. He was aligned with the dark, and he even says so.

Sure it was. You're not being stubborn at all.

No, it was not. The Kingdom Hearts 2 Ultimania says explicitly Namine and Roxas are nobodies. The Dissidia Ultimania says nothing about them being manikins. How is that an accurate comparison at all. The story nor the book never treated Roxas or Namine as copies of Sora or Kairi. So how is that an accurate comparison?

What the Hell are you even bitching about here? I was agreeing with you. Are you really so impatient to lash out at me that you can't even bother to check whether or not I'm saying that you have a point?

You've questioned that line before and who the pawns were, so I thought you were confused about it again. Glad to see we're on the same page here then.

That could be because you ignore any detail I give out until you occasionally feel the need to pop in & tell me how stupid I am, and even then, you only pay attention to about half of them.

Where have I called you stupid? Are you so impatient to lash out at me that you can't bother to check whether I'm insulting you now?

You didn't even address my point at all. In particular emphasis to the bold, that's my point. Isn't it odd that he refers to this group that questions itself as "pawns," when you yourself back up the claim that he'd been referring to the Warriors and the created beings separately up until this point?

"The devil is in the details," as you said earlier.

When he refers to the warriors of Cosmos and Chaos, he calls them "pawns...split down the lines of harmony and discord." That's a very clear, contextual statement that refers to the heroes and villains of the story. Since the heroes represent harmony, and the villains represent discord. Whenever he refers to a pawn who is a character in the story, he denotes through context who they are.

When Cid mentions the pawns of Chaos Report 5, he specifically calls them just pawns or "created pawns", and refers to them as experimental failures which were cast off into the Interdimensional Rift. Cid will always refer to the people beneath him as pawns. It speaks of his vanity. But through context, its pretty clear which pawns are the actual subject. I guess that just comes from the fact "pawn" is the "word of the day" in the story.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

1. If it's "left for the player to interpret," then how can you be certain my interpretation is wrong? That you bother to argue against it implies that there is a correct interpretation.

Moreover, I am not "having trouble understanding" anything. You're only making that claim because, since I disagree with you, I obviously must be having difficulty understanding or be refusing to admit that I'm wrong.

It is, for lack of a better term, stupid. I could make the exact same claim about you.



2. Golbez actively sought Chaos's downfall. He is proof that the summoned characters don't have to fight for their deity.



3. The comparison you pointed out is inaccurate. Trouble is, that is not what my analogy is. To reiterate:

To reiterate, if the consciousness of the warriors came from existing (or soon-to-exist) people & returned there after the war of the gods, it fits.

Do I say ANYTHING here about what the Kingdom Hearts Ultimania does or does not say? No. Do I say ANYTHING about how the Nobodies are portrayed? No. I say, "What I am suggesting can be likened to the Nobodies reuniting with their original selves."

That's it. I hope I do not need to explain this a third time.



4. Cid does not, at a glance, seem to use the word "pawn" to exclusively mean "one who serves the gods." Fair enough. However, I would argue that "pawn" implies "something that is used for an end."

On the subject of the consciousnesses, though, it is not just a philosophical musing. At the very least, it throws the interpretation that "they are people from the destroyed worlds" into question.



5. Kuja changed. I'm just gonna say that straight out. The game did not build up to Zidane's revelation that Kuja was him with a shitty life for no reason. The claim that he's "naturally evil" is completely against the storyline of FFIX. "People don't change overnight" is just a handwave. Characters do change. Sometimes suddenly. Case in point: Sephiroth.

 

[Ryushikaze]

What you are not acknowledging is the fact the Ultimania is not being nearly as specific as you're expecting it to. You keep going with this mantra that, "If it's part of the plot, it's in the Ultimania."

The idea is that major elements of the plot WILL be explained in the Ultimanias, because they typically are. Because they are considered important to discuss. That the heroes are fakes but this is not apparently obvious WOULD be important to discuss.

I will agree that it is that way for the Compilation entries, and probably in most cases, but that is not what we're seeing in this case. We're not seeing explanations of the Reports. We're not seeing an explanation as to whether Dissidia comes before or after FF1. And I've still yet to see that explanation of Sephiroth's motivation in Dissidia from the Ultimania.

Because these details are not expressly important to the plot. Heroes being fakes would be.

Truth is, if it were half as specific as you're expecting, I should not be able to argue at all. I should see something like, "'Those whose faith in themselves wavered' refers to the Manikins which attained physical form" and go, "Well, fuck. It was a great idea while it lasted."

Except even without the Ultimania saying that, you can't just go 'It's a good idea, and these three vague quotes MUST MEAN THIS and not this alternate explanation and this trumps the game and the ultimanias treating the heroes and villians as the originals.

Now you're overexaggerating. I can see thinking that the conclusion is incorrect, but to say "nothing anywhere even hints at it" is clearly wrong.

Except his point is that all your hints are taking extremely extremely vague hints, shit like the 'feeling of god' and spinning them into extraordinary conclusions much like a fundy.

Cid questions whether or not the dimensions even exist yet. Is it really that far-fetched to say that we are getting a general Kuja copy? Even taking that line into account, the Manikin would have came from Kuja.

Cid wonders if the consciousnesses he examined were from the future, given the temporal fuckery that is endemic to FF1 and Dissidia.
And the Kuja being a copy is still an unnecessarily complex explanation than it merely being the real thing.

I'm not so sure I buy that. At the end of the game, Kuja teleported Zidane and his friends out of harm's way just because he regretted what he'd done. Zidane even says that, in the same position, he may have reacted the same way as Kuja.

The amnesia is a possible explanation. In fact, he seems to really only enter into the scheming after Ultimecia fucks with his head. My question, though, would be why he was helping Chaos before that. Even Jecht had a reason.

Jecht went along with Mateus' scheme for a reason. Jecht was a pawn of Chaos because he was selected, same as Golby. They can work against Chaos while still being his pawns.

Yes, it does. Nowhere did I say "everything about the Nobodies is exactly the same as what I'm talking about." It's a basic fact of analogies that it's never going to be exactly the same. If it were, it would be like saying, "An apple is like an apple." Comparing one thing to itself. Comparing something to itself...serves no function. "Cherries taste like cherry" tells you nothing.

I'm trying to demonstrate a point. Nitpicking the details is self-defeating. To reiterate, if the consciousness of the warriors came from existing (or soon-to-exist) people & returned there after the war of the gods, it fits.

Making them for every practical purpose the same as the originals, but only with an unnecessary extra complication of the story. Simplify, simplify.

The Reports DO say "some pawns were reborn retaining memories of their previous lives." I suppose it's not a stretch to say that they could gain them ex post facto, or that every pawn has its memory erased. Thus far, I will give you that.

It was expected they would be completely fresh each turn. Hence the oddity at them retaining memories and plotting based on them.

In similar regards to wording, the Reports say "within the created pawns were some whose faith in themselves wavered." As the Manikins weren't being used yet and "pawns" is always used in reference to the Warriors, I think that means something.

Actually, 'pawns' is used to refer to the manikins, when they reappear. "these soulless pawns"
And CR5 is entirely concerned with his experiments, so yes, created pawns refers to the manikins.

The simplest assumption is the assumption that takes all factors into account & explains them the most simply. If the idea that the heroes were the genuine article were a parsimonious explanation, we would not be having this discussion.

An exceptionally loaded statement in all ways.
But this is my point. Your explanation does not simplify. Instead of taking 'they returned home' in a simple and literal way, you read an unnecessarily more complex meaning into it.

To be fair, amnesia goes a long way towards explaining apparent indescrepencies. However, we are still having problems applying this explanation. I am not "assuming for the sake of assuming." Again, I have quotes. I even saw fit to mention one just above this.

You have quotes, yes, but quotes that do not say things you claim they say. In several cases you've taken a vague quote and insistent it must mean something very specific instead of something equally viable, and in others, you violate parsimony with your readings.

And, lastly, if you can tell me with a straight face that Dissidia never tosses mindfucks at its audience, then I never want to be stuck playing Poker against you.

I would hardly call Dissidia's plot full of mindfucks. Even it's twists are hardly such.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

All of the details I've named are important to the plot.

Character motivation is incredibly important to a plot. You can't have a story without characters who make decisions based on their personalities & goals. That's part of the reason why so many of the Ultimania files go into the characters' thoughts.

The Reports ARE the backstory of the game. They are important to the plot. They ARE the plot.

If Dissidia is canon with FF1, how the story is related to it is important to the overarching plotline.

I don't see how you can tell me that any of these details are "not important." These are things that make up the core elements of a plotline. They are not trivial details. If the backstory of the game is not important to the plot, then nothing is. If the heroes are in fact Manikins, it is just as important a fact as the meanings of the Reports. It's all backstory information.

This Ultimania defense is an unsound argument. In fact, I'd go as far to say that it isn't even an argument. "Important plot details" doesn't even mean anything. It's a completely subjective description lacking in any manner of explanation as to what, specifically, makes something "important."

 

[Makoeyes987]

1. If it's "left for the player to interpret," then how can you be certain my interpretation is wrong? That you bother to argue against it implies that there is a correct interpretation.

Again. I said that they had faith in the players connecting the dots and seeing the obvious picture. They don't spell out every single detail when its more than obvious. When I said it was up for them to interpret, I meant that it was up to them to see the obvious interpretation that was the creator's intent.

Moreover, I am not "having trouble understanding" anything. You're only making that claim because, since I disagree with you, I obviously must be having difficulty understanding or be refusing to admit that I'm wrong.

It is, for lack of a better term, stupid. I could make the exact same claim about you.

Apparently you're having trouble understanding something, because you think an Ultimania needs to dissect every single line of text and scene in order for it to be an Ultimania. No. It does not. You're holding the text to a ridiculously high standard of proof to avoid the fact you're wrong. So you're clearly missing something. I could list you a dozen different storyline points that various Ultimanias have left out, because they just did. Does that mean the Ultimanias do not discuss the details pertinent to the story? No. It just means they also leave shit out that they think is either obvious, or adequately explained in-game.

2. Golbez actively sought Chaos's downfall. He is proof that the summoned characters don't have to fight for their deity.

He was still tied to Chaos and the side of discord. The fact he turned rogue doesn't change anything. Mateus goes rogue too, but that doesn't mean he's no longer a warrior of Chaos. Jecht had a heart of light but he too got snatched away and became a warrior of Chaos. Will and volition means nothing. If Chaos wants you, he takes you.

3. The comparison you pointed out is inaccurate. Trouble is, that is not what my analogy is. To reiterate:

Your analogy is wrong because no where do they say these heroes are returning to individuals, they are returning to their WORLDS. How is that anything LIKE Kingdom Hearts's nobodies? That's patently false and misleading. The game and text from the Ultimania clearly says they return home to their world. Tres gave you the Japanese text and the english translation for it.

Do I say ANYTHING here about what the Kingdom Hearts Ultimania does or does not say? No. Do I say ANYTHING about how the Nobodies are portrayed? No. I say, "What I am suggesting can be likened to the Nobodies reuniting with their original selves."

No. It cannot be likened to nobodies. Because the heroes did not go into the bodies or whatever of different people. THEY are their own unique individuals that exist separately and are returning *home.*

4. Cid does not, at a glance, seem to use the word "pawn" to exclusively mean "one who serves the gods." Fair enough. However, I would argue that "pawn" implies "something that is used for an end."

Well doesn't that describe the heroes and villains? They're both used as warriors to fight for the ends of their respective gods. And also, all the characters in this story, are pawns in his overarching scheme to create the ultimate Chaos, who can in turn, eradicate reality. So yeah, it fits.

On the subject of the consciousnesses, though, it is not just a philosophical musing. At the very least, it throws the interpretation that "they are people from the destroyed worlds" into question.

Him philosophically musing on where the consciousnesses come from, and also what time period, makes perfect sense thematically, and in terms of the time loop FF1's world is caught in. I don't see what else you can read into that.

5. Kuja changed. I'm just gonna say that straight out. The game did not build up to Zidane's revelation that Kuja was him with a shitty life for no reason. The claim that he's "naturally evil" is completely against the storyline of FFIX. "People don't change overnight" is just a handwave. Characters do change. Sometimes suddenly. Case in point: Sephiroth.

So now this is a matter of opinion in regards to the way Dissidia portrayed him. Um, well you're entitled to your opinion and I respect that, but that suddenly doesn't make Kuja no longer Kuja within the narrative. You could say then they got him OOC. I disagree.

Sephiroth didn't change overnight. He changed over a week. And the fact he had alien biology and his alien mommy influencing his mind certainly helped things as well.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

1. I am not "holding the text to a ridiculously high standard." I'm holding you to your own standard. You can't sit there & say, "It's not in the ultimania, therefore it's wrong," then ignore the fact that there's all of this other stuff that isn't there either. "It's obvious" has not now, nor has it ever been a good justification for any sort of line of reasoning. It's hypocrisy, plain & simple.

2. This thing about Golbez. Seriously. We've established that the characters can go against their god's will, which is exactly what I said to begin with. We've proven my point.

3. My analogy isn't wrong. The analogy can't be wrong. Only the interpretation can be wrong. If the analogy works, it works. And guess what? It works. Either way, they're still returning to the world. Also, right here:

No. It cannot be likened to nobodies. Because the heroes did not go into the bodies or whatever of different people. THEY are their own unique individuals that exist separately and are returning *home.*

You're using your argument as proof of your argument. Also, I must stress that they would be returning to their original forms, not going into the bodies of different people.

4.

Well doesn't that describe the heroes and villains? They're both used as warriors to fight for the ends of their respective gods. And also, all the characters in this story, are pawns in his overarching scheme to create the ultimate Chaos, who can in turn, eradicate reality. So yeah, it fits.

EXACTLY. The warriors are the pawns. If the Manikins are referred to as pawns, that implies that they are being used to an end. "Within the created pawns--" in other words, pawns who were created. That implies Manikins that were doing something other than just being discarded in the Void. Now, granted, this isn't a smoking gun, but it does fit.

5.

Him philosophically musing on where the consciousnesses come from, and also what time period, makes perfect sense thematically, and in terms of the time loop FF1's world is caught in. I don't see what else you can read into that.

Plenty. The time loop wasn't just "there," it was a plot element. Similarly, I highly doubt this is "random philosophical musing" when the whole of the Report serves to establish the backstory of the game. Again: At the very least, it throws the interpretation that "the consciousnesses came from destroyed worlds" into question. That's undeniable.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Which is kind of what one would expect it to do, regardless. Manikin or not, they're still the same characters. It would be as though you had a clone: You would expect it to mirror your behavior and thought processes quite closely.

Sure, but as it is the profile for Dissidia's Kuja and it says he was born on a planet with a magical civilization, it's straightforward, I feel.

The difference between Golbez & Kuja is that Golbez retains his new personality. Kuja just goes exactly back to the way he was for no apparent reason.

Well, yeah, but Kuja's also a dick, repentant or not. XD

Even when Zidane saves him again at the end of Dissidia (I take the white smoke he begins to discorporate into as a sign that Zidane has brought him back from the dark again; the evil villains all have dark smoke), he's still a douche.

Being a narcissist and full of himself are parts of Kuja that would be there regardless of which side he was aligned with. That's just his personality. And with that amnesia element thrown in, it doesn't seem like that much of a stretch for him to arrive at being a full-on asshole again.

Don't Roxas and Namine end up back in Destiny Islands shortly after returning to Sora and Kairi?

So, to make sure I'm following you now, you're suggesting that Dissidia's Squall or Dissidia's Cecil would go to the respective worlds of the originals and be reconfigured back into the originals? Or something else?

I still don't think I get the analogy, to be honest. It seems most simple to me to just take the quote as written.

The amnesia is a possible explanation. In fact, he seems to really only enter into the scheming after Ultimecia fucks with his head. My question, though, would be why he was helping Chaos before that. Even Jecht had a reason.

My guess is that he was selected by Chaos because of his own inherent dark nature. That seems to be why Golbez was chosen, against his own choosing even: "I was summoned by Chaos. That alone is a sign of my heart's weakness."

What you are not acknowledging is the fact the Ultimania is not being nearly as specific as you're expecting it to. You keep going with this mantra that, "If it's part of the plot, it's in the Ultimania."

While it definitely doesn't pinpoint even all of the big stuff, the manikins theory -- what Mako has now formally named the Heroic Xeroxes Theory -- seems like it applies not so much as an individual plot element but more like a foundational premise. Though, of course, many of those are glossed over as well.

In similar regards to wording, the Reports say "within the created pawns were some whose faith in themselves wavered." As the Manikins weren't being used yet and "pawns" is always used in reference to the Warriors, I think that means something.

I'd considered that as well at one point after you put this theory on the table, but, in fairness, it seems that argument would counter itself since that particular Chaos Report includes the line "While observing how they acquired pawns to fight in their conflict ..." before the "created pawns" part.

If "pawns" always refers to the warriors, then wouldn't that mean Chaos and Cosmos had already gotten the heroes and villains?

As we need to be able to reconcile all elements available to us, including profiles like Kuja's, which says he's the Kuja born on Terra, I think we'd have to conclude that on this occasion the "created pawns" Cid spoke of are the manikins he dumped into the Rift.

Also, there's what Ryu mentioned about Chaos Report 8 referring to the manikins from the Rift as "soulless pawns."

And, lastly, if you can tell me with a straight face that Dissidia never tosses mindfucks at its audience, then I never want to be stuck playing Poker against you.

Really, let's be honest, guys: Dissidia is a big mess in its presentation of the story. What is there I like, yes, and it's a decent enough story -- but it was presented in a manner way more complicated than it had to be, and it does require some mental gymnastics at times to figure out what the hell is up.

Not the least of which because of issues like inconsistent memory loss across the heroes, and something like Firion briefly not knowing what the Wild Rose was in a flashback prior to the game starting, but knowing full well once the game has started and onward.

It's just a lot of little things like this that add up and require us to pick it all apart and make sense of it. Which, yes, I believe we have -- but it's still a mess.

On the subject of the consciousnesses, though, it is not just a philosophical musing. At the very least, it throws the interpretation that "they are people from the destroyed worlds" into question.

Not necessarily. Again, we have to remember that even if the heroes and villains are the originals we're already dealing with different time periods.

Any shattering of the dimensions and worlds should presumably have affected multiple time periods.

Tres acknowledged that the Dissidia Ultimania offered little detail on the reports in the story. Don't twist his words.

He wasn't. The Ultimania doesn't touch on everything it should have.

For instance, Mateus's plan, Sephiroth's intentions, etc. These things are apparent, I believe, but thanks in no part at all to the Ultimania.

Jecht went along with Mateus' scheme for a reason. Jecht was a pawn of Chaos because he was selected, same as Golby. They can work against Chaos while still being his pawns.

Mateus took Jecht. Cosmos had selected him originally.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Actually, you got the analogy. They wouldn't remember any of it, though. So, maybe amnesia before & after is a more workable explanation, but so far, I'm not seeing it.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Okay, so I did get it.

Well, if that's the position you've taken, I guess I have to echo a sentiment I expressed earlier. I really don't see the purpose in attempting to find a distinction between originals and copies that are just the reconstituted originals who get reconfigured back into the originals.

We do know, of course, that they had some amnesia episodes during Dissidia, but whether that would carry over to when they went home is unclear (it doesn't seem to happen to Warrior of Light, though; that guy's already got enough memory problems as it is), and, in my mind, would be an unnecessary development.

Due to the few sequels that have come along, we've only seen three of these heroes in other post-original game scenarios (Cecil, Cloud and Tidus), and none of those situations really called for them to reference Dissidia's events -- though I still love the idea that Cloud's deliberately using Firion's moves in ACC.

I guess I'm starting to feel like our debate isn't so much about how the warriors came to be involved in Dissidia's war -- outright taken by the gods as we both agree some entities were, or developed from disembodied consciousnesses by Cid, we're still dealing with the same point of origin for all of them: the genuine heroes and villains -- as it is about whether they would have retained their memories after.

At the least, that's the only thing I feel that's of significance either way.

And, of course, whether they kept the memories or not is impossible to determine. I would say, though, that we're not given the impression that they would forget.

And, personally, I find it more satisfying to think they didn't. Especially in light of how this would affect ACC's narrative.

Really, Cloud saving Denzel and Tifa with a move from a guy who inspired him during another dark time -- and who reminded him of Zack, at that -- and later using another of his moves to defeat Sephiroth -- who had trounced and dismissed Firion as though he were nothing -- is a really great concept.

Anyway, as time has gone on, I've seen more clearly the foundation for your theory and see it as a respectable concept. It doesn't work when taking a comprehensive view of the Ultimania and game due to the various comments that establish continuity between the characters in the original games and in Dissidia, but if just looking at Dissidia the game alone, I think it is an intriguing analysis that showed a dedicated eye for detail.

It was a great attempt to make sense of a number of unnecessary complications strung together by Dissidia's train wreck presentation, but at the end of the day, it all comes down to random cases of amnesia during the game, and who knows what after.