Alternate Plot Interpretation

[Neo Bahamut]

So, they might not shine brightly, but it seems they shine nonetheless.

So, we've established that the game says 2 different, contradictory things. Great. I suppose something is probably a mistranslation. They don't seem to have changed the dialogue at all.

It's not 'informing' it, it's leading into it. 'The opening' is everything from the opening screen to the bridge sequence.
I think you're confusing Dissidia as a whole with its ending in Tres's explanations.

Follow me, here. It was mentioned, several times, that Dissidia explains how the time loop broken. It...doesn't. It could still be leading into FF1's opening, but it clearly wasn't necessary or helpful in setting up the plot.

Uh. Garland WOULDN'T recognize them at this point, since this would be the first point in his timeline they've met.

So, in other words, they get their asses handed to them by Chaos, Chaos tears the world a new urethra, & the ending starts them up back where their quest began?

At the beginning sure, but at the end, when everyone was regaining memories, he'd also regain memories lost to him from the addling effect, and the argument is that he'd remember those at the least.

Well, whatever he was doing beforehand, he doesn't remember it. The quest would apply just as much with...whatever WoL does in his daily life.

 

[Ryushikaze]

So, we've established that the game says 2 different, contradictory things. Great. I suppose something is probably a mistranslation. They don't seem to have changed the dialogue at all.

'Used to shine brightly' is not an outright contradiction with 'still shines somewhat.' It's a bit semantic, but think of it as between 'used to, brightly' and 'currently, faintly.'

Follow me, here. It was mentioned, several times, that Dissidia explains how the time loop broken. It...doesn't. It could still be leading into FF1's opening, but it clearly wasn't necessary or helpful in setting up the plot.

Necessary, no, but helpful, yes, as it could provide an explanation as to the new facet that allowed the timeloop to sever.

So, in other words, they get their asses handed to them by Chaos, Chaos tears the world a new urethra, & the ending starts them up back where their quest began?

No, since they defeat Chaos and he tears nothing.
Unless you mean FF1 Chaos, in which case it's essentially a 'fresh' set of Warriors each time round, and a Nugget of the 'previous' chaos in the 'new' Garland. Due to Timey Wimey, it's odder than that, but that's probably the simplest way to think about it.

Well, whatever he was doing beforehand, he doesn't remember it. The quest would apply just as much with...whatever WoL does in his daily life.

Even at the end, when everyone is recovering previously sequestered memories?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

But I was just talking about the part at the bridge. "They did not even know the true significance of the crystals they had clutched in their hands. Crystals that once shown brilliantly."

I never really understood the significance of that line myself. It may be as simple as what Ryu postulated, though it's still placed awkwardly.

The point of my question was more along these lines: "If the ending of Dissidia supposedly informs FF1's opening, then why does it--y'know--not do that?"

It seems like it does to me.

I'm not sure we can safely rule out anything. The mountain crossing idea seems plausible, but I'm not sure. As for Garland, that scene was a complete 180 from the impression that Mako got. Garland was surprised that anyone came to face him & called them "the King's lapdogs," not "the warriors of light." Granted, there's no dialogue, but the monologues still tell us things. In this case, it kind of screams, "Who the fuck are you people?"

I'm in agreement with Ryu on this. Garland shouldn't know who they are at that time. The Garland of Dissidia -- who would recognize the blue Warrior of Light -- died. The Garland of the present day in FFI didn't know anything about the Warriors of Light or even Chaos, unlike Garland in Dissidia.

Garland as he appears in Dissidia would probably be from a post-first encounter, but pre-becoming Chaos stage. He already knows about the time loop of FFI, and he references being saved from his death at the hands of the Warriors of Light: "Before the Great Will led me to this realm, when I was on the edge of death, it was you who sent me two thousand years into the past."

It sounds like the relative "present" for this Garland was 2000 years in the past -- just before becoming Chaos. Thus, he would differ from the Garland the WsoL encounter at the Chaos Shrine in the present.

The Garland seen in Dissidia should simply cease to exist as far as FFI's timeline is concerned.

EDIT: Wait, on the subject of the Warrior of Light, the statement that he should know where he was & what he was doing when he was pulled into Dissidia's conflict if he'd already been on the journey is invalid. Whether that happened somewhere along his journey or right in his hometown, wherever that may be, he doesn't remember either way.

That's more or less my point. If he literally has no memories at all of where he was or what he was doing, then he hadn't yet begun to accumulate new memories wherever -- and whenever -- he was prior to being pulled into Dissidia's war.

While he has no memories of who he is during FFI, it's not implied that he's forgetting the adventure as the story goes along. Thus, if Dissidia were to have happened after FFI for him, he should at least remember that adventure, and, presumably, where he was and what he was doing at the time he was taken.

As it is, it's implied that the WoL was a blank slate at the beginning of Dissidia's conflict.

Follow me, here. It was mentioned, several times, that Dissidia explains how the time loop broken. It...doesn't. It could still be leading into FF1's opening, but it clearly wasn't necessary or helpful in setting up the plot.

It could be pivotal to setting up FFI's plot. Something had to be introduced from outside the time loop in order to break it.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

So the flow from Dissidia to FF1 would go how, exactly?

On an unrelated note, is there a way to bring up the world map in the PSP version of FF1? Never knowing where I'm going is beginning to piss me off.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

So the flow from Dissidia to FF1 would go how, exactly?

My best guess -- and this is, of course, just speculation, about a highly and unnecessarily convoluted story, part of which was written some 20 years after the main segment -- is that it would go down like this:

-We have the time loop of FFI, established and unbreakable
-Cid and Shinryu, who reside outside the normal flow of time, interfere in things; they pluck Garland out of time after he has appeared 2000 years in FFI's past --so, after fighting the Warriors of Light, and before becoming Chaos
-Cid gets Garland to agree to manipulate Chaos into a war with Cosmos; what the relative "present" for this Chaos would be is anyone's guess; I'd like to think it would be around 2000 years in FFI's past (it would make Dissidia's cycles and FFI's time loop all part of a much larger time loop), but it doesn't have to be
-Chaos and Cosmos begin their war; they shatter the dimensions, render differing eras in time irrelevant, fuse worlds and select their warriors; among Cosmos's chosen warriors is the Warrior of Light, a person with no memory of his past whatsoever; if there is a relative "present" for him to have been taken from, it was the instant he would have awakened in FFI's world with no memory (the Circle of Sages seem to indicate that the Warriors of Lights' memory loss should coincide with their awakening:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPvRfLt47KQ#t=6m54s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4j-ipPWhJPk#t=1m51s)
-Dissidia's conflict ends with Cosmos' side victorious; the two sides' warriors return to their proper places, and the Warrior of Light is left near Cornelia, now holding a crystal that he wouldn't have had in previous turns of FFI's time loop
-Due to the inclusion of this new variable, the Warriors of Light will not only defeat the Fiends in the present and restore the crystals, but they will now be able to actually travel back in time and prevent the entire ordeal from ever happening by defeating the Fiends before they could be sent to FFI's present, and also defeating Garland after he became Chaos
-The Warriors of Light return to the present, arriving in the "true state of this world," where there is no prophecy about them and never was

On an unrelated note, is there a way to bring up the world map in the PSP version of FF1? Never knowing where I'm going is beginning to piss me off.

One would certainly hope so. I haven't played that version, though, so I honestly don't know.

 

[Strangelove]

Wasn't there some kind of backwards-talking code telling you show to bring up the world map in FFI? (Not that I've actually played it, I just think I remember reading that )

 

[Neo Bahamut]

The general assumption is that Chaos in Dissidia is from the "present" because he has no memory of the time loop.

That said, doesn't he need to become Chaos in order to start up the time loop?

Snow: I did find the brooms, but I don't remember what they said. As well, I tried several button combinations & even found an in-game listing of what various buttons do. It would seem as though you can't do it. I'd have to head back to Matoya's cave to check, but I can't remember how to get there.

 

[looneymoon]

FF1 World Map - O+Select, at least according to google.

 

[Ryushikaze]

You're not thinking with portals, NB. Or Timey Wimey.

The chaos of Dissidia is the 'prior' chaos, the original-ish article, who was harvested to make Garly, the controlled chaos. The Garland and Chaos of FF1 are not exactly the same as the Chaos of Dissidia.

It's like Doctor Who. One entitiy, many faces, personalities, and in this case, sets of memories.
Of course, Garland is more like Jenny who can Apotheos into the Doctor, but pfeh.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Garland tells Dissidia Chaos that he sends Garland to the past, & that "I am you."

All implications--even outright statements--are that they are the same Chaos.

 

[Ryushikaze]

And so the Second Doctor and the Third Doctor are the same person. They're still quite different personalities.
Garland is an avatar or splinter of chaos, capable of growing back into the whole if necessary. Part of the same thing, but autonomous, not wholly connected to the larger version.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

1. I don't know anything about Dr. Who.

2. I get your theory, but Garland/Chaos state, pretty plain as day, that they are the same entities that are trapped in the cycle.

3. Speaking of this idea, how is it any less ridiculous than the characters being Manikins again?

4. Forget what I said before, I'm not following your analogy in the slightest. They are or are not connected? They have or do not have the same personalities? Which is it?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The general assumption is that Chaos in Dissidia is from the "present" because he has no memory of the time loop.

Which "present" do you mean? We don't really get an idea of how much time -- if any -- may lay between Cid of the Lufaine's era and 2000 years before FFI's present day.

That said, doesn't he need to become Chaos in order to start up the time loop?

Yes.

Garland tells Dissidia Chaos that he sends Garland to the past, & that "I am you."

I don't think Garland was referring to the entity Chaos himself as being who sent him to the past. After all, the original game makes it clear that it was the Four Fiends of Chaos, utilizing the four forces (the crystals), that sent Garland through time.

As they were agents of Chaos, it could be said Chaos sent Garland through time, but he didn't personally do it.

Forget what I said before, I'm not following your analogy in the slightest. They are or are not connected? They have or do not have the same personalities? Which is it?

Though I'm not quite as steeped in the "Doctor Who" lore as Ryu, I think I follow his train of thought here. He's saying that initially there is the entity that is Chaos, and Garland was created from that entity.

As part of the whole, he's capable of being transmuted into the whole to replace Chaos if the need should arise. That's where we'd find ourselves with Garland being subconsciously drawn to take the Lute, etc. -- he was probably being guided by forces beyond himself to go back in time and replace the original Chaos.

As far as their personalities go, though, I'd say they're definitely not the same personalities. Garland's disposition as Chaos in the first Final Fantasy is markedly different from that of the original Chaos seen in Dissidia.

I just thought of another analogy that may be useful. Are you familiar with Neil Gaiman's "Sandman"? Morpheus would be the original Chaos, while Daniel would be akin to Garland (excluding the detail, of course, that Daniel didn't begin life as part of Morpheus).

Both of them are Dream of the Endless, Daniel taking Morpheus's place in that role, but they have different personalities.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

The analogy still isn't working for me.

When I say "present" in the context of FF1, I'm referring to the timeframe from when WoL begins his quest to just before going back in time.

I also wouldn't get too tied up into specifics about the Chaos/Garland relationship of FF1, because there was clearly some dramatic liscence being taken. How else could the 4 Fiends exist--as summons, no less--alongside of Garland--who has their attacks--& a completed Chaos?

That said, my point about Garland needing to become Chaos in order to start up the time loop is that, if that is true, then taking Garland from any point in time & then just killing him destroys the time loop. Therefore, if Garland is the real deal--which I'm fairly certain we've both always agreed upon--then he must not die at the end of Dissidia, if Dissidia does come first.

The original game even makes it a point to say that he was "on the verge of death" before travelling back in time.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The analogy still isn't working for me.

When I say "present" in the context of FF1, I'm referring to the timeframe from when WoL begins his quest to just before going back in time.

But we aren't given the impression that Garland/Chaos is still hanging around in that period, though. The Chaos Shrine looks like crap, and the Fiends were the ones to do the time bending with the crystals.

I also wouldn't get too tied up into specifics about the Chaos/Garland relationship of FF1, because there was clearly some dramatic liscence being taken. How else could the 4 Fiends exist--as summons, no less--alongside of Garland--who has their attacks--& a completed Chaos?

I'd attribute that to the fact that time and space had been rent to the point of no longer applying anyway -- same way you'd get Squall and Ultimecia together, or the sets of Seph & Cloud alongside Jecht & Tidus.

That said, my point about Garland needing to become Chaos in order to start up the time loop is that, if that is true, then taking Garland from any point in time & then just killing him destroys the time loop.

Therefore, if Garland is the real deal--which I'm fairly certain we've both always agreed upon--then he must not die at the end of Dissidia, if Dissidia does come first.

A good point. I guess he'd just go back where he was taken from (2000 years before the present), the same as everyone else, and then become Chaos like he's supposed to.

So that would mean we're looking at two potential variables introduced into the time loop by Dissidia -- the blue WoL's crystal, and Garland being yanked out of time 2000 years in the past to participate in Dissidia's conflicts before being thrown back where he came from.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Chaos existing in the present, like I said: It's the common assumption. But it does sort of make sense. If Garland wins most of the time loops, then there's no reason that Chaos should die. Presumably, he should keep living into the present.

That being said, back to my string of assumptions:

After Garland gets his ass handed to him in Dissidia, Chaos sends him back in time to establish the loop. After Chaos is defeated, WoL ends up back in his normal world. Assuming that the crystal he has is, in fact, the water crystal (or mini water crystal, or whatever), then it's likely that the old one was destroyed when Chaos urinated all over everyone's parade.

I'm not sure if it's correct, but it's an idea.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

You're right that there's no obvious reason Garland/Chaos should be dead in the present. I'm just saying that we never really get the impression that he's still hanging around.

I mean, the shrine is a wreck, the Four Fiends are the ones who did the time travel business for Garland, and Chaos didn't even attempt to stop the Warriors of Light from traveling to the past by walking back through his front door to do it -- which should have had him shitting himself.

I'm not saying he's dead in the present, but he may have just left the planet altogether.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

I will agree to that, but note that appearances can be deceiving.

I will also say that, going under the "general assumption," as I've been calling it, Chaos is dead in FF1 because you killed him in Dissidia.

EDIT: I'm gonna be honest, I'm not too fond of the last leg of my interpretation. I don't like what seems to be an unnecessary switcheroo. It doesn't even make sense in the grand scheme of things. If Cosmos had that kind of power, one would assume she'd just fix the FF1 world while she was at it. I'm really hoping that I'll find things out later that will clear this all up.