Alternate Plot Interpretation

[Makoeyes987]

It's like trying to get into an argument over String Theory with a Quantum Physicist, but you only have a grasp of basic, high school physics, and you're asking the Quantum Physicist to explain to you everything through the debate, and then summarily argue with him.

After awhile, I'm sure the physicist would pause, and either get pissed off, or cease discussion entirely until you got the facts yourself and came back prepared.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Aww, are you getting mad? I sense some hostility here

The sheer irony here is ridiculous. First you flip out at me over the comments in the Dissidia article, now you're acting superior because you believe that you've managed to piss me off.

Stop being lazy and find the info yourself.

Stop being lazy & cite your own sources. That's how debate works. This "you're not looking for the information" is just a straw man. You made a claim. You back it up. Don't make a claim if you aren't prepared to back it up. It's. Lazy. You proved that yourself when the reason you gave was because "it's tedious."

We have no obligation to tell you shit you could easily get yourself if you either used google or picked up the game from gamestop for 15 bucks.

I actually have done Google searches before this & I do have the game, as I said before. The problem is that you're expecting me to beat the game at the freakin' speed of light JUST so you don't have to find a quote to back your point up. It's idiotic.

Obviously, my Google searches yielded no results.

There is absolutely no reason you should be this defensive when asked for a citation. It is ridiculous & is obviously just done to paint your opponent as willfully ignorant. Well, guess what? I stated beforehand the limits of my knowledge AND asked for a citation. The one who's willfully ignorant is the one who refuses to submit to the burden of proof & obfuscates that fact by making absurd remarks like "it's like you're copying off my homework."

Yes, because asking YOU to support YOUR argument with the quote YOU claim exists involves ME in any way shape or form. This "do your own works" bullshit is just that--bullshit. That's what you're trying to get me to do right now. It's your point. You prove it.

I could have used these same arguments at any time during the course of the Dissidia debate. Your argument is bunk.

You are doing yourself measurable disservice by bringing up this subject without already playing the game, and only going by secondhand knowledge.

All of this has no bearing on one's ability to cite their own goddamn sources, but they don't because, survey says:

"It's tedious."

So...yeah.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The sheer irony here is ridiculous. First you flip out at me over the comments in the Dissidia article, now you're acting superior because you believe that you've managed to piss me off.

For someone not pissed off, you sure are acting pissed off.

Stop being lazy & cite your own sources. That's how debate works. This "you're not looking for the information" is just a straw man. You made a claim. You back it up. Don't make a claim if you aren't prepared to back it up. It's. Lazy. You proved that yourself when the reason you gave was because "it's tedious."

The "source" is FF1. It's pretty obvious if you've been reading. It's not a hard to find book or whatever. How is it that you're again...asking for shit for a game you didn't play, and expecting us to provide it for you? It's not a claim. It's a fact from the game. I'm not basing any argument on it.

I actually have done Google searches before this & I do have the game, as I said before. The problem is that you're expecting me to beat the game at the freakin' speed of light JUST so you don't have to find a quote to back your point up. It's idiotic.

Obviously, my Google searches yielded no results.

Guess you never tried youtube or gamefaqs. You know, maybe looking at playthroughs of FF1... I mean, if you're not gonna play the game, wouldn't hurt to maybe *see* it.

There is absolutely no reason you should be this defensive when asked for a citation. It is ridiculous & is obviously just done to paint your opponent as willfully ignorant. Well, guess what? I stated beforehand the limits of my knowledge AND asked for a citation. The one who's willfully ignorant is the one who refuses to submit to the burden of proof & obfuscates that fact by making absurd remarks like "it's like you're copying off my homework."

Defensive? LOL. And it's not just me, guess you ignored Ryu here too. I don't really need to paint anything, dude. If you're not arguing from a position of knowledge or understanding, then yeah, you're ignorant of the subject.

This isn't even about "burden of proof." It's having your facts and shit together beforehand.

Yes, because asking YOU to support YOUR argument with the quote YOU claim exists involves ME in any way shape or form. This "do your own works" bullshit is just that--bullshit. That's what you're trying to get me to do right now. It's your point. You prove it.

What argument? I'm not arguing anything. You just don't seem to know what exactly went on in FF1, and I'm telling you. It's in the game. I'm not going to go dig up a youtube video or something of an event in the game just to placate your stubbornness.

I could have used these same arguments at any time during the course of the Dissidia debate. Your argument is bunk.

Eh, I don't think so. Since I don't think you've played Dissidia either

All of this has no bearing on one's ability to cite their own goddamn sources, but they don't because, survey says:

"It's tedious."

So...yeah.

There's a difference between a "source" and the actual topic being discussed. You don't cry "CITE YOUR SOURCES" at someone in a discussion on Star Trek lore, when they're talking about Star Trek itself, and you've never watched it. Because you haven't played FF I need to now tell you ever single event of FF1 now...? Wow.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

You know something? I really don't care if I get shit for "flaming."

You're an idiot & I have nothing more to say to you.

 

[Makoeyes987]

That cuts me deep Neo, I hope you realize that.

Your burning aura of anger and rage frightens me.

If you seriously can't bring yourself to even watch FF1 on youtube or read the game script (let's not even bring up something as complex as playing it), I seriously don't know why the hell you're going on about FF1 and trying to argue its plot as if you know what you're talking about. It's hilariously stupid. Either get knowledge and argue from a position of intelligence, or just bow out, get the facts, and come back armed for a real debate. Discussing shit you don't know, is pretty dumb.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Your burning aura of anger and rage frightens me.

If anyone’s beating a dead fucking horse, it’s you. Your hamfisted attempt to prove your theory that they’re manikins when not even the dismantling guide of the entire plot even hints at such a plot twist, is annoying and now bloating this article up to 100 fucking comments. I don’t even think you’ve played the fucking game. Shade Impulse isn’t about random shit happening. The game proper states that the world is falling into disorder and destruction because Cosmos, the Goddess who kept the universe alive, was dead. Why the hell can you not accept what the story says?
Sephiroth isn’t a fucking shadow, and the game never even hints at him being anything but the real deal. If he were a goddamn shadow, then I’m pretty sure that would warrant a passing mention in the damn Dissidia Ultimania that talks about every relevant plot point and creative process in the game and story. Funny that never seems to be mentioned though.
Dissidia’s Ultimania isn’t a goddamn listing of references to the original game, and if that’s all you see, then you’ve either clearly lost your reading comprehension or never had it to begin with. The fact it clarifies the point that Chaos and Garland are one within the context of Dissidia’s story, and Dissidia’s ending takes place in FF1 makes more than a checklist of allusions.
You’ve been told over 5 fucking times to take it to the forums. Take a fucking hint, please. Your stubbornness and density are annoying.
I’ll calm down if you post on the damn forums like you were asked to days ago. For fuck’s sake, I can’t even find where your comments are, and you swamping my inbox with new tl;dr trying to shove your circle shaped theory down the square shaped hole is getting aggravating.

THAT is a tantrum. Me throwing in a little swearing after explaining to you, multiple times, that you should cite your sources if you're going to make a claim & then calling you an idiot after you make a bunch of dumbass claims like "you can't read" & "I bet you didn't even play Dissidia" is not.

 

[Max Payne]

I am the King of England. No I don't have to prove it.

Fuck you.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

I am the King of England. No I don't have to prove it.

Fuck you.

Huh. I'm somewhat surprised I'm actually saying this, but thanks for the interjection, Dacon.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Wow, butthurt doesn't even begin to encompass this....

Guess you decided to omit the numerous times Ryu, Tres and I asked you to go to the forum politely, and stop hitting our inboxs with the tl;dr which could be adequately and comfortably discussed on the forum, where intensive discussion is supposed to take place. I guess after repeatedly not getting the hint from several mods, forceful measures were the only option.

What sources do you need claimed Neo? I made no claim. I'm listing events that happened in FF1. What don't you understand?

And after not understanding what two people seemed to have understood, and then saying it's not even coherent, I guess I'm only left with the option to wonder if you're taking the piss, or you somehow lost your ability to read. Cause that would be the only explanation to you somehow asking such ridiculous questions.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

In my opinion, NB should familiarize himself with FFI and Mako should provide quotes or video links about events or statements he's saying are in FFI.

Yes, NB is making a drastic, terrible, embarrassing, nonsensical debate error in arguing about something that he's unfamiliar with, but -- knowing that NB is unfamiliar with it -- if someone is going to choose to carry on debating with him anyway, they should just go ahead and provide their quotes when making a claim. That's more likely than anything else to get him to reconsider his position -- presumably, the goal of choosing to continue debating with him.

Again, in my opinion.

...Well in terms of when they were written, they were written before the Warriors of Light had come to be. Which would then imply that the conflict of Dissidia happened after that.

I agree with this, but not for quite the reason you have here. I think that it must be the case because -- once the Warriors of Light fulfill their destiny -- the prophecy vanishes.

Remember: In FFI's ending (viewable here), no one remembers the Warriors of Light or anything they did, because they removed the reason for there being a prophecy about them. So for there to yet be the prophecy at the "time" of Dissidia indicates that FFI hasn't happened yet.

As well, I can't think of a thematic or plot-related reason for the Cosmos Reports to appear in Dissidia and speak of the Four Fiends, the prophecy concerning the coming of the Warriors of Light "bearing the crystals," and the notion that "this world--no, the people of this world--can finally be freed from this endless cycle of death and rebirth" (FFI's time loop) with their coming, unless it's 1) to indicate that it had not yet come to pass relative to Dissidia's "present," and 2) to emphasize that the ending of Dissidia is where the prophecy is finally fulfilled, with the blue Warrior of Light gaining his crystal shard and entering Cornelia.

I would also argue that Garland's line to Golbez, "...There is no end to my cycle, Golbez. Not as long as he and I are one," suggests that, for Garland, the events of FFI had not yet come to pass.

I don't know what you mean, regarding Garland not knowing the Warriors of Light in FF1. He calls them by name and expects them to come try and stop him. There's no surprise at all.

He doesn't refer to them by name on either occasion that he encounters them, actually, though he does seem to be prepared for them in the final battle. Of course, the fact that they were rampaging through the Chaos Shrine and killing the Fiends may have clued him in about their presence ().

Furthermore, the Warriors of Light don't speak, so I'm not sure how you can say they were surprised or anything.

There was a "!" over their heads when he revealed that he was Garland.

They were surprised to see him step out and confront them. To say that it was surprise that he was alive *period* when the Lufenians explained to them that they had to go back into the past and KILL Garland/Chaos, doesn't make sense, unless they have really short term memories.

Actually it was the Circle of Sages, my mistake.

The sages don't mention Garland by name, in neither the NES, Origins nor Dawn of Souls versions of the game:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwEA_SbPz4U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPvRfLt47KQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4j-ipPWhJPk

Ad hominem.

Just want to reiterate again that an ad hominem argument is when someone claims that another is in the wrong on the basis of some personal factor that is unrelated to the actual topic.

For example, Debater A is a bad dresser and Debater B says that A's argument about Dissidia's plot is unfounded on the basis of A being a bad dresser -- this would be an ad hominem argument. Ad hominem isn't about insulting someone, it's about making an absurd claim that someone is wrong on the sole basis that they suck in some unrelated respect.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Gee, some of the shit I said actually added up & quotes would have elucidated that fact? Imagine that.

So, Mako, what would you have said if I actually went looking for this quote that doesn't exist & not found it? "You aren't looking hard enough"? Do you see the importance of proper citations NOW?

The reason I called it into question is because, of all of the things I've read about FF1, I've never heard of Garland referring to the Warriors of Light by name, & everything I've ever read says that they didn't know Garland was Chaos until they went back in time.

That being said, I wonder if the records would vanish just because the prophecy did. If the time loop doesn't begin until after the reports are written, I would think that they wouldn't be affected. In fact, there is the line, "By the time these are read, this story will only be a myth." Paraphrased. Anyway, that seems to suggest that someone will find them after the WoL vs. Chaos fiasco. Also, Cid wrote the Chaos Reports in the Interdimensional Rift, so I doubt they'd be affected.

Of course, in Kingdom Hearts, loss of memories affects even physical objects. As these are both SE games, it's entirely possible that carries over & the Reports just vanish.

All of that being said, I think the reason for referencing Lukahn, the Fiends, etc. is done mostly to provide additional support of a link to FF1. The one thing I don't get is where he talks about an "omen echoing from worlds that have been & worlds that will be."

...Lukahn is a dude, right?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

That being said, I wonder if the records would vanish just because the prophecy did.

My guess would be yes. If there's no events to make a prophecy, there presumably wouldn't be any reason to make records dealing with such a prophecy.

If the time loop doesn't begin until after the reports are written, I would think that they wouldn't be affected.

The events of the time loop range from 2000 years in the past (Garland's arrival point, and the Four Fiends's departure point) up to the present time. With Lukahn still alive in the present, both his prophecy and the records would have been made after the time loop began.

In fact, there is the line, "By the time these are read, this story will only be a myth." Paraphrased. Anyway, that seems to suggest that someone will find them after the WoL vs. Chaos fiasco. Also, Cid wrote the Chaos Reports in the Interdimensional Rift, so I doubt they'd be affected.

Well, the Warriors of Light end up coming forth during Lukahn's lifetime, so he may not have expected his prediction to be fulfilled as soon as it was.

In any case, the same cause-and-effect relationship that would lead to there being no prophecy should presumably have removed the Cosmos Reports as well once the time loop was broken. No apparent reason why one should remain when the other didn't.

Of course, in Kingdom Hearts, loss of memories affects even physical objects. As these are both SE games, it's entirely possible that carries over & the Reports just vanish.

Thematic similarities between the two games as well, and they had much the same development teams too.

All of that being said, I think the reason for referencing Lukahn, the Fiends, etc. is done mostly to provide additional support of a link to FF1.

The use of Chaos, WoL and Garland in the story should be sufficient for that, as would the heroes being in Cornelia at the end of the game. Speaking both thematically and from an approach that asks "What does this provide the narrative?", there's nothing additional offered unless there's a connection between what the end of the Cosmos Reports speak of and what that final shot in the game's ending shows us.

The one thing I don't get is where he talks about an "omen echoing from worlds that have been & worlds that will be."

I'm not sure about this, either. Maybe he somehow knows about the Warriors of Light from FFIII and FFV, who appear to save the world when crystals weaken and shit gets bad?

Or maybe it's happened on FFI's world before. Such events are known to repeat on FFIII and FFV's worlds.

...Lukahn is a dude, right?

Yes.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Your theory for why the Reports can't exist post-FFI is indeed compelling, but you mentioned cause-&-effect. In that regard, I would say that the cause of the Reports was the birth of Garland.

As for the continuity argument, here's my viewpoint: You typically don't take the minimalistic approach when you establish links. Think about CC. It has the Nibelheim scene, Midgar is another location, the abandoned town is mentioned as being close to Icicle Inn, various characters from the Compliation appear, etc.

You could make an argument that all you need to have a canon game is Genesis. He's technically in SOLDIER. All of the locations & other characters can be new, different, & unrelated, since your villain has a tenuous link to the canon. This is technically true, but it doesn't mean all of the other elements that are in CC have a specific purpose beyond being part of the setting. In fact, for some characters, this is quite literal. Aerith is a major character, but she doesn't have much significance beyond hanging out with Zack.

On an unrelated note, here's something I've observed:

-FF1-

Chaos uses magic from the elements of water, fire, earth, & air.

-Dissidia-

Cosmos is thematically linked to water & air.

Chaos is thematically linked to earth & fire.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this, or even if the observation is significant, but I thought I'd throw that out there.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Minor addition. It was pointed in another area of the site, ironically in something pretty much completely unrelated to any of the subjects discussed here, in a conversation that I was not in, that the crystals probably are just representations of significant objects.

The point was made about Zidane's crystal, & that there's no way it could have been the original crystal. It's too small & why the Hell would Zidane be walking around with the original crystal, anyway?

Still not sure whether or not WoL's crystal is the ice crystal, but here's an attempt at making a coherent story out of this:

After shit goes down in Lufenia, Garland is understandably traumatized. This explains his memory loss. The Rift dumps him outside of Cornelia, where he goes through a relatively normal life as a knight. He doesn't know the full extent of his powers, but he knows he's the best knight around. Because of this, he goes mad with power & tries to take over Cornelia. He takes the lute because he's unconsciously aware of its significance.

After being defeated by the Warriors of Light, he ends up in the Rift again. Rather than go straight back to the past, he roams around, whereupon Cid finds him. It's Cid who leads him to the time paradox.

After this, it gets a bit screwy. But I think it's a good start.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Your theory for why the Reports can't exist post-FFI is indeed compelling, but you mentioned cause-&-effect. In that regard, I would say that the cause of the Reports was the birth of Garland.

Sure, all the parts about the memories of Cid's wife should still be there. There's probably no reason those wouldn't still be made.

I should have been more specific. I was talking about the parts discussed in the final two Cosmos Reports, with the details about the Four Fiends and the prophecy. Those parts should be gone.

As for the continuity argument, here's my viewpoint: You typically don't take the minimalistic approach when you establish links. Think about CC. It has the Nibelheim scene, Midgar is another location, the abandoned town is mentioned as being close to Icicle Inn, various characters from the Compliation appear, etc.

You could make an argument that all you need to have a canon game is Genesis. He's technically in SOLDIER. All of the locations & other characters can be new, different, & unrelated, since your villain has a tenuous link to the canon. This is technically true, but it doesn't mean all of the other elements that are in CC have a specific purpose beyond being part of the setting. In fact, for some characters, this is quite literal. Aerith is a major character, but she doesn't have much significance beyond hanging out with Zack.

True enough, but on the matter of the prophecy details in the Cosmos Reports, there's nothing they could be providing the setting either. Between the presence of Chaos, Cornelia in the game's ending, and all the other details in the Cosmos Reports and Chaos Reports, it was already clear that we were dealing with FFI's world.

If they're not giving us information about the ending, then they're really not doing anything but just being mentioned to fill up space and pad the reports out to an even 10.

On an unrelated note, here's something I've observed:

-FF1-

Chaos uses magic from the elements of water, fire, earth, & air.

-Dissidia-

Cosmos is thematically linked to water & air.

Chaos is thematically linked to earth & fire.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this, or even if the observation is significant, but I thought I'd throw that out there.

It's significant, I think. I'd noticed the recurring imagery, but it didn't even occur to me before that there's an association with the crystals there.

It actually makes quite a lot of sense. The crystals of FFI's world apparently sustain the planet's order. Similarly, Chaos and Cosmos are described as the pillars of the world.

They're related to the crystals somehow, probably, either part of the world sustaining function or with one being a reflection/representation of the other.


While on that subject, I've gone ahead and translated Chaos and Cosmos's profiles from the Ultimania (pp. 174 and 178, respectively):

http://i45.tinypic.com/10o1dav.jpg
http://i48.tinypic.com/140vvch.jpg
-------------------------
CHAOS
Reigning in a far-off dimension, the god of destruction and chaos

A sinister-looking, grotesque god with horns, wings, a tail and four arms, he governs chaos. One of the two gods who are the pillars that sustain the world, his fate to be in conflict with Cosmos -- his opposite -- is all according to the "Great Will." Though it was believed the conflict would last for eternity, this time, he was victorious in his battle with Cosmos, and serious changes begin to visit themselves upon the world, as well as his own mind and body.

[Screenshot caption]
In order to maintain his ability to fight, he selected a group of warriors, each from the worlds of various dimensions, to fight against Cosmos and the forces of light under her command.

----

COSMOS
The goddess of order and harmony, who embraces everything with the light of kindness

One of the two pillars; together with the god of disorder, Chaos, they constitute the world. The beautiful goddess who governs order and harmony, she watches over everything with the warm look of an affectionate mother. Though it seemed her conflict with Chaos would last for eternity, this time, she has lost to Chaos's endless forces. Her remaining power bound in sustaining the world, she bids the warriors she summoned begin their journey to find the crystals.

[1st screenshot caption]
With the world descending into chaos, she transmits a message to the Warrior of Light and the other warriors who bear the power of light, entrusting them with the light of her wishes, for the sake of the future.

[2nd screenshot caption]
Even if she can't travel with the warriors, she constantly keeps a watchful eye over them, and when the hardships of their journey for the crystals puts them in distress, she materializes nearby to give them advice.

[3rd screenshot caption]
Cosmos wished to sever the endless cycle of battle with Chaos. Without telling them much, she requests the warriors find the crystals; their true purpose is......?
-------------------------


I think the statement that they "constitute the world" (構成: "compose," "constitute," "comprise" and similar words) is significant. It points to much the same idea that we see with the crystals.

Minor addition. It was pointed in another area of the site, ironically in something pretty much completely unrelated to any of the subjects discussed here, in a conversation that I was not in, that the crystals probably are just representations of significant objects.

The point was made about Zidane's crystal, & that there's no way it could have been the original crystal. It's too small & why the Hell would Zidane be walking around with the original crystal, anyway?

Yeah, the crystals seem to take the forms of crystals significant to the worlds the heroes come from.

That may be another indication toward the potential significance of the crystal the Warrior of Light carries, and -- between that and the relationship you've pointed out between the gods and the crystals -- explain why his crystal could affect the Water Crystal.

Certainly, Cosmos's power should still be lingering within the crystal he received during Dissidia, so that may provide the spark to restore the Water Crystal when FFI's Warriors of Light reach it and defeat Kraken.


Something else that just occurred to me that points to Dissidia being a prequel is that the WoL notes that he alone has no memories of where he was prior to the conflict of Dissidia: "Unlike all of you, I have no memory of where I was, or where I must return. I don't even know my own name."

That's the same state we find him in during FFI. The Circle of Sages -- as well as Dissidia's Japanese website -- mention that the Warriors of Light didn't have memories of where they came from, so it stands to reason, I think, that he hadn't yet gone through his journey in FFI.

Still not sure whether or not WoL's crystal is the ice crystal, but here's an attempt at making a coherent story out of this:

After shit goes down in Lufenia, Garland is understandably traumatized. This explains his memory loss. The Rift dumps him outside of Cornelia, where he goes through a relatively normal life as a knight. He doesn't know the full extent of his powers, but he knows he's the best knight around. Because of this, he goes mad with power & tries to take over Cornelia. He takes the lute because he's unconsciously aware of its significance.

So far this sounds workable. I've always thought that Garland took the Lute more out of a subconscious allure than because he knew what it did.

After being defeated by the Warriors of Light, he ends up in the Rift again. Rather than go straight back to the past, he roams around, whereupon Cid finds him. It's Cid who leads him to the time paradox.

Here, it's less likely. Garland explains when confronted by the Warriors of Light before their final battle that the Four Fiends sent him back in time right after he was defeated:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8F7O7vp2Y8#t=59s

 

[Neo Bahamut]

I said he took the lute because of an unconscious urge, actually.

As for the idea that Garland was lead to the time loop, the idea comes from Cid & Garland talking about how the "Great Will" lead him on. Although I'm hoping there is a scenario that merges the 2 stories with as little details changed as possible, I figure at some point, something's gonna get ret conned.

The major problem after this is that, without understanding how the water crystal & WoL's crystal are related, I'm not really sure where to go next. Has it always been the water crystal? Did Cosmos make new crystals because the old ones were trashed? I'm not really sure.

As for Chaos & Cosmos, I have a working hypothesis about that, too. It goes something like this: At that time, Cosmos & Chaos were one, with Chaos being in control. Whether that was the way it was before Dissidia, or if it's a result of Chaos consuming Cosmos before going back in time, I'm not really certain. Although, technically, I'm not really certain if the first part is right. It's really the textbook definition of an asspull.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I said he took the lute because of an unconscious urge, actually.

That's what I mean by "subconscious allure." There's something about it calling to him.

Actually, since we're discussing crack theories at this point, what I envision is something like this: 2000 years in the past, Chaos has died -- either because of the events of Dissidia (this would assume that the relative "present" of FFI's world during the events of Dissidia was 2000 years or more before the present day of FFI's world) or because of something else.

This smaller part of him (Garland), that now resides in the future, is being subconsciously drawn to the past to become Chaos and replace him, as there needs to be a Chaos every bit as much as there needs to be Cosmos. That being the case, Garland is drawn to take the Lute.

When he gets to the past, though, because of the rage that Garland has been filled with since childhood, he becomes the awful Chaos that we see in FFI and establishes its time loop.

I'd like to think that after the time loop gets broken, the blue Warrior of Light would then confront Garland again before he could set a new time loop in motion, fight him one final time (solo, of course), and get through to him before letting him venture to the past to become a benevolent Chaos -- restoring FFI's world to order, and at last fulfilling the blue Warrior of Light's promise in Dissidia to Garland to save him: "Whatever destiny the world may hold for me, I can never give up! This battle shall come to an end, and I shall save you, too!"

That's what I'd love to see a proper remake of FFI do, actually.

As for the idea that Garland was lead to the time loop, the idea comes from Cid & Garland talking about how the "Great Will" lead him on. Although I'm hoping there is a scenario that merges the 2 stories with as little details changed as possible, I figure at some point, something's gonna get ret conned.

It's possible that something will get retconned, though not necessary, I think. Garland's involvement in Cid's plan may have been as simple as Shinryu plucking him from Cornelia.

The major problem after this is that, without understanding how the water crystal & WoL's crystal are related, I'm not really sure where to go next. Has it always been the water crystal? Did Cosmos make new crystals because the old ones were trashed? I'm not really sure.

That's always been one of those things about the original FF that just didn't get touched on. The Warriors of Light have color-coded crystals that restore the big crystals -- and that's it.

I do think Dissidia explains how the blue WoL got his, but that still leaves the other three as complete mysteries.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Well, see, I'm actually just talking about Dissidia's relation to the crystals.

For one thing, I don't even understand the line that it "mirrors the game's opening." The opening I saw went like this:

Warrior of Light: I'm in a cave! There's a crystal! I think I should grab it!
Dragon: Blargh, I'm a dragon! Eat fire!
Warrior of Light: Fuck you, dragon!

I should write a novel.

Anyway, I'm not up to the Fiends yet, so I should probably get this out in the open: I thought the warriors carried the crystals & THOSE were what were re-energized?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Well, see, I'm actually just talking about Dissidia's relation to the crystals.

For one thing, I don't even understand the line that it "mirrors the game's opening." The opening I saw went like this:

Warrior of Light: I'm in a cave! There's a crystal! I think I should grab it!
Dragon: Blargh, I'm a dragon! Eat fire!
Warrior of Light: Fuck you, dragon!

You're thinking of the FMV sequence added to the Origins and Dawn of Souls release of the game.

The actual opening to the game itself is considered to be everything from the time you begin a new game to this sequence.

Anyway, I'm not up to the Fiends yet, so I should probably get this out in the open: I thought the warriors carried the crystals & THOSE were what were re-energized?

Nope. The crystals they carry re-energize the actual elemental crystals:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBooUjXiWCo#t=3m

 

[Neo Bahamut]

I've gotten a bit farther (just past the bridge, to be precise), & I have noticed a few things:

1. The ending of Dissidia is not FF1's opening.

Alright, technically, I can't say that for certain. However, the area is definitely familiar. It's the bridge leading from Cornelia to the above continent. That means that WoL is going back to Cornelia from the other side. It would be difficult for it to be the exact opening of FF1, because Garland would already have been defeated. It could be before Provoaka and WoL is backtracking for some reason, but I don't see why.

2. The game's opening mentions energizing the crystals that the warriors are holding.

This one's...pretty self-explanatory, really. I believe it does a few times before the bridge scene, as well.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I've gotten a bit farther (just past the bridge, to be precise), & I have noticed a few things:

1. The ending of Dissidia is not FF1's opening.

Alright, technically, I can't say that for certain. However, the area is definitely familiar. It's the bridge leading from Cornelia to the above continent. That means that WoL is going back to Cornelia from the other side. It would be difficult for it to be the exact opening of FF1, because Garland would already have been defeated. It could be before Provoaka and WoL is backtracking for some reason, but I don't see why.

The prequel theory for Dissidia assumes only that we're witnessing the blue Warrior of Light arriving in the vicinity of Cornelia, per the prophecy. In other words, it would have been before he fought Garland at the Chaos Shrine, and possibly even before he met the other three Warriors of Light, as they appear to have arrived individually rather than as a group.

In any event, the WoL's statement during Shade Impulse that he has no memories of where he was prior to being pulled into the gods's conflict would seem to preclude him having been through the events of his game already. He even makes the point that his companions in Dissidia have memories of where they came from, while he doesn't, so we can't attribute it to the random amnesia that had affected many of the characters -- especially at this late stage of the story, where everybody else has gotten back their lost memories.

As well, at the start of Dissidia, he lacks the crystal he carries during FFI.

Now, something that confused a couple of us at first concerning the possibility of Dissidia being a prequel is that the bridge would not yet be up were that the case, while at the end of Dissidia, the WoL is on the hill that's presumably not far from the bridge. Of course, we don't know that the bridge is there yet.

The WoL still has to get to Cornelia, though, right?

That's not really a problem, as the landmass with that hill is still connected to the same landmass as Cornelia via a mountain range not far to the west:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/nes/file/522595/17099

And, of course, the FMV opening added to the Origins and Dawn of Souls versions of the game shows that the blue Warrior of Light, indeed, crossed a mountain range to reach Cornelia:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WykC_LvsBck

2. The game's opening mentions energizing the crystals that the warriors are holding.

This one's...pretty self-explanatory, really.

As I mentioned earlier, the ones they're holding energize the larger elemenal crystals that the Fiends are manipulating. The ones they have don't have to be energized (you even see the blue WoL's crystal light up during that FMV opening).

Check out that link I posted to see the Earth Crystal being re-energized.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Yes, I saw the link. Doesn't mean I can ignore what the game keeps saying.

WoL: "No. I am still determined to defeat Chaos. That hasn't wavered, but--
Unlike all of you, I have no memory of where I was, or where I must return. I
don't even know my own name."

Is he talking about his adventures or just his home? Additionally, we can't rule out the possibility that it is the usual amnesia. The Reports specify that you need a "strong emotion" to maintain your memory, & WoL isn't exactly the emotional type. Either way, by similar logic, why does he seem to not remember Garland in FF1?

Additionally, I can't see Cornelia in the background of that dragon fight, so I'm reluctant to conclude that's what happened. In fact, in Dissidia's ending, he kinda goes in completely the wrong direction. Given all of that, it seems to be a rather large assumption.

But, assuming it is a prequel...how did it happen in the first place? Garland had a time loop going. How did it suddenly stop looping & become the clusterfuck that is Dissidia?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yes, I saw the link. Doesn't mean I can ignore what the game keeps saying.

The game speaks of them energizing the large elemental crystals, as in this scene right before the WsoL cross the bridge:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNcE-Knab8U

The King: Thank you for returning my daughter to my side. There can be no doubt that you are the Warriors of Light from Lukahn's prophecy! You should hear the prophecy in its entirety. Ahem. If I may...

"When darkness veils the world, four Warriors of Light shall come. If they cannot gather the shards of light, the darkness will consume all. The four Crystals will never shine again..."

Now, I hear that a Crystal can be found on the continent to our north. Restoring light to the Crystals is our only hope of ridding the world of the monsters which plague it!

I will have the bridge to the north rebuilt as I promised. I pray that you succeed in restoring light to the four Crystals--and to the world.

So right there you can see that the crystals in need of restoration are not the same thing as the smaller crystals carried by the Warriors of Light -- the king of Cornelia has just said that one of the crystals they need to restore light to is to the north of Cornelia. Obviously the four WsoL have their smaller crystals in their possession.

As well, there's no part of the plot that involves adding energy to the crystals they carry. They're ready to go the whole game.

Is he talking about his adventures or just his home?

Presumably, he's talking about everything, as he says he has no memory of where he was or where he's going back to. Had he already been through his adventure, he should at least know where he had been at the time he was pulled into Dissidia's conflict.

Additionally, we can't rule out the possibility that it is the usual amnesia. The Reports specify that you need a "strong emotion" to maintain your memory, & WoL isn't exactly the emotional type.

His devotion to Cosmos, the light, etc. are all quite strong.

In any event, this is the final scene before the team fights Garland. Well before that point, Sephiroth and Squall already recovered their lost memories, so we can safely rule out the usual amnesia.

Either way, by similar logic, why does he seem to not remember Garland in FF1?

He doesn't seem to not remember him. The WsoL have no dialogue in the original game. One of the reasons the original needs a proper remake in my opinion.

Additionally, I can't see Cornelia in the background of that dragon fight, so I'm reluctant to conclude that's what happened.

He's not with the others at that point, so it would have to be prior to his meeting up with them. As well, if he's not heading to Cornelia in this pre-opening cutscene, there's really no value to the scene at all.

For that matter, the pre-opening FMV added to FFII -- which came with FFI in both the Origins and Dawn of Souls releases -- featured new material added to before the game's actual opening:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dShn3-MdjD8

The opening in the game itself speaks of four youths fleeing the imperials, and then we're suddenly in battle. The FMV shows some of the events leading up to that.

Likewise, the opening of FFI speaks of the four Warriors of Light arriving with the crystals after long journeys, and then we're suddenly in Cornelia with the crystals. The FMV for that game would, then, presumably show a little bit of the events leading up to that.

In fact, in Dissidia's ending, he kinda goes in completely the wrong direction. Given all of that, it seems to be a rather large assumption.

If he doesn't know where he is, then that's not really a big deal. He gets down to the shore, realizes he can't cross there, and then goes around to the mountain range.

But, assuming it is a prequel...how did it happen in the first place? Garland had a time loop going. How did it suddenly stop looping & become the clusterfuck that is Dissidia?

That's where Cid and Shinryu come in, presumably. The whole conflict was their doing, after all, and obviously not part of the normal flow of time.

Really, though, a question like that runs in both directions: Garland had a time loop going. How did it suddenly get broken if a new variable hadn't been introduced somewhere? That's a question that's been asked by fans for years before Dissidia came out.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

As well, there's no part of the plot that involves adding energy to the crystals they carry. They're ready to go the whole game.

But I was just talking about the part at the bridge. "They did not even know the true significance of the crystals they had clutched in their hands. Crystals that once shown brilliantly."

Really, though, a question like that runs in both directions.

The point of my question was more along these lines: "If the ending of Dissidia supposedly informs FF1's opening, then why does it--y'know--not do that?"

Well before that point, Sephiroth and Squall already recovered their lost memories, so we can safely rule out the usual amnesia.

I'm not sure we can safely rule out anything. The mountain crossing idea seems plausible, but I'm not sure. As for Garland, that scene was a complete 180 from the impression that Mako got. Garland was surprised that anyone came to face him & called them "the King's lapdogs," not "the warriors of light." Granted, there's no dialogue, but the monologues still tell us things. In this case, it kind of screams, "Who the fuck are you people?"

EDIT: Wait, on the subject of the Warrior of Light, the statement that he should know where he was & what he was doing when he was pulled into Dissidia's conflict if he'd already been on the journey is invalid. Whether that happened somewhere along his journey or right in his hometown, wherever that may be, he doesn't remember either way.

 

[Ryushikaze]

But I was just talking about the part at the bridge. "They did not even know the true significance of the crystals they had clutched in their hands. Crystals that once shown brilliantly."

And yet, the crystals are responsible for 'powering up' the full sized versions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7B_Awb-rOk&feature=related Near the end, you see the Fighter raise the small crystal, and then the big one's light is restored.
So, they might not shine brightly, but it seems they shine nonetheless.

The point of my question was more along these lines: "If the ending of Dissidia supposedly informs FF1's opening, then why does it--y'know--not do that?"

?
It's not 'informing' it, it's leading into it. 'The opening' is everything from the opening screen to the bridge sequence.
I think you're confusing Dissidia as a whole with its ending in Tres's explanations.

I'm not sure we can safely rule out anything. The mountain crossing idea seems plausible, but I'm not sure. As for Garland, that scene was a complete 180 from the impression that Mako got. Garland was surprised that anyone came to face him & called them "the King's lapdogs," not "the warriors of light." Granted, there's no dialogue, but the monologues still tell us things. In this case, it kind of screams, "Who the fuck are you people?"

Uh. Garland WOULDN'T recognize them at this point, since this would be the first point in his timeline they've met.

Ah, time travel stories, how I adore your temporal nonsense. Zaphod Beeblebrox, son of Zaphod Beeblebrox II, son of Zaphod Beeblebrox III.

EDIT: Wait, on the subject of the Warrior of Light, the statement that he should know where he was & what he was doing when he was pulled into Dissidia's conflict if he'd already been on the journey is invalid. Whether that happened somewhere along his journey or right in his hometown, wherever that may be, he doesn't remember either way.

At the beginning sure, but at the end, when everyone was regaining memories, he'd also regain memories lost to him from the addling effect, and the argument is that he'd remember those at the least.