Am I the only one who found Genesis and Angeal completely...

[Cat Rage Room]

...unrelatable and incomprehensible? Angeal was spouting vague things about pride and honor, and Genesis's entire script was almost nothing but LOVELESS quotes. Compared to Zack, who fought for real, relatable concepts such as his best friend, his girlfriend, and an everyday guy in extraordinary situations, the characters of A&G seems poorly written and just strange.

 

[Max Payne]

Personally I found the whole thing to be laughable and completely derivative.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I found Angeal to be pretty relatable actually. He's like the Cliff Huxtable of SOLDIER.

He's clearly meant to be a father figure for Zack and as shown through Zack, and the NPCs, is the spiritual leader and role model for all of SOLDIER. He made SOLDIER something other than the muscle of Shinra. A good man like him had no business there and was another victim of Shinra.

Genesis on the other hand is..yeah. He's crazy, and completely wrapped up in his own world. It isn't until the end when he's recreated LOVELESS that he finally becomes something near "understandable" which makes sense given how obsessed he is.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

See, that's the thing about Angael. His concept in theory was pretty refreshing, a father figure, mentor to other soldiers like Zack that kept them on the straight and narrow. Sometimes the game did a really good job of showing that. In practice though, the shit he said was and motivated by was completely retarded.

"What it takes to be a SOLDIER is pride...and HONOR"

"My...my honor..."

"MY PRIDE AS A SOLDIER"

Now, don't get me wrong, I understand the concepts of pride and honor and understand how important that would be to a person like Angeal. But the way that he presented it through the text was really, really dumb. He seemed to be driven by nothing much more than vague concepts of "SOLDIER pride" or something. Given his character template, I thought his primary motivations would be something more down to earth, like a little girl and wife he's trying to raise back home, or a trying to be a soldier with a purpose in a relatively purposeless and hollow organization (like SOLDIER), or hell, even a dog back home. But he just spouts pride and honor nonsense almost ALL THE TIME.

And Genesis was really...a waste. Almost everything he said was out of LOVELESS, which is a shame because his character and personality seemed really interesting but almost everything he said was paraphrased from somewhere else. There's better ways to write obsession in a character than that.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Warriors have a sense of honor, like how the samurai lives by the code of bushido. In FFVII, it's not too hard to imagine SOLDIER following a somewhat similar concept.

And if you remember, for Angeal, SOLDIER was well...his life. He has no real family, save for his mom which he wrote to regularly. SOLDIER was the most committed thing he had in his life, and he lived and breathed it. Which is why the betrayal Shinra dealt him, hurt him so hard.

And him trying to be a soldier with a purpose in a relatively purposeless and hollow organization like Shinra? That's exactly what he was, dude. That's why he kept trying to inject purpose, and goodness into what SOLDIER was. It's why he kept preaching on about it and mentoring Zack like that.

I can't really say much for Genesis though. I liked him a lot but he did quote LOVELESS quite a bit and didn't speak his own words much until the end. Maybe he'll have more to say another time.

 

[Dawnbreaker]

I can see why people didn't like Angeal and Genesis, and they're not my favorite characters either but I think they served their purpose. Try to remember they're not as detailed as Zack and Sephiroth, having a lot less to work with (as both were in other games). They seem a bit one-dimensional and they are, but if they were given more time they might have been fleshed out better.

I don't particularly like or dislike either character and I can see why people do, but I think given time they might have been something more substianal.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

You know, Genesis's endless prattling about LOVELESS makes me wonder if they weren't trying to poke fun at us fans.

Of course, the other part of me cautions against believing they're actually that clever.

 

[Makoeyes987]

And I guess the fact they made the "Silver Elite" fanclub the most fanatical, devout, and hardest fanclub to enter, isn't S-E being clever either. Or the fact that Genesis's fanclub is the richest, most commercial fanclub as well.

They're much more aware of fandom than you'd think.

 

[Dee]

I liked Angeal, at least, for what he was in the short time we 'got to know' him. He seemed pretty relatable and was an interesting character. As for Genesis, I just wanted to punch the guy in the mouth half the time. I think he was much more annoying and whiny than anything else. His urge to preach and quote lines from Loveless only amplified the desire to hate him even more, and that is why he may've come off as "unrelatable" in a sense.

Then again, I know quite a few people who deserve a good punch in the face...

 

[Arianna]

Like with a lot of things, I'll agree that they could do with some good fleshing out.

Still, I liked both characters - in a way, I think they complimented sides of Sephiroth well.

Angeal was the proud one, the one who took his job seriously and did it well for the benefit of the greater good (as far as he knew it), the more outgoing one; Genesis, while showy, attention grabbing and one who loved the spotlight, was also the one who gained more comfort in his hopes, thoughts and beliefs about the future, the more aloof one.

I'm tired; I hope that didn't come out wrong. But yeah, those are my general thoughts.

 

[looneymoon]

I think they worked adequately for the roles they were supposed to play. Unfortunately, they weren't given as much character depth as they could have. It seems more like Square was just trying to force down their roles as Sephiroth counterparts down our throats, rather than actually fleshing out the characters.

I think they were alright, when taking into account how short the story really was. Minus the missions the game is what... 8 hours long to play through?

Also, there may have been limitations with making it on the PSP and all. The storyline was pretty short and there wasn't alot of room for much character time, aside from Zack. Had they made the story on a larger scale, then we may have seen better Genesis/Angeal depth.

 

[ForceStealer]

I thought they were fine. They didn't receive the attention of the other FF characters, no, but I imagine Genesis is about to get a fair amount.

I'm actually currently replaying Crisis Core, and I thought it was interesting that if you talk to one of the SOLDIER 3rd Classes on the SOLIDER Floor in Chapter 3 he says something along the lines of,

"Angeal would always give me a line about my duty, and Genesis would preach to me something from Loveless. I wish they'd come back, I miss them."

I thought that was really cool, I must admit. It actually gave you the impression that the 1st Classes (that aren't Sephiroth) actually do interact with the lower SOLDIERs. Enough that this third class would miss them. I dunno, I thought it was neat.

 

[Nocturne]

Well I think part of it has to do with Crisis Core's script being cut down considerably because of the UMD. I remember reading it was supposed to be twice as long.

 

[Shademp]

[quote author=Nocturne link=topic=279.msg9767#msg9767 date=1232478801]
Well I think part of it has to do with Crisis Core's script being cut down considerably because of the UMD. I remember reading it was supposed to be twice as long.
[/quote]
Heh, I'm surprised to hear that. That sounds more like something belonging to the 8-bit era when space was so limited there could barely be a script. Oh well.

I agree, Genesis and Angeal are not well-drawn out. But I like it that Genesis Loveless lines makes us want to piece together all the pieces; it reminds me of how we had to piece the whole story together in the original FFVII. Add also that Loveless may have some symbolic and or literal relation to FFVII's story (is this relation confirmed to be canon?).
In overall, the 'monster dilemma' of Genesis and Angeal was unrelateable because most of it seemed based on their genetic relation to Jenova.
"I want to dominate the world... Or maybe I want revenge. Why? Because I feel like it."

 

[Countess Ariadne]

I'm probably going to get shot for saying this, but I believe Genesis was created solely for the the Gackt fans. I just don't see him as really contributing anything to the game. Even if he's in future installments, the most I see him doing is having some really lame redemption scene.

Angeal I liked a bit more, though I wonder why he went from being such a great guy to "I'm a monster now, woe is me." so quickly. But I don't view him as just fanservice.

But overall, I think they both took part of Sephiroth's glory away. I just think it's stupid that Sephiroth has such a breakdown over being a "monster" when both of his best friends are essentially the same thing. *Shrug.* I liked him being one of a kind.

And if that's true about the Crisis Core script being twice as long, I wish they would release it somehow.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Genesis's redemption was at the end of Crisis Core when Zack saved him and let him regain his pride as a SOLDIER.

And you could be right, just like movies cast certain actors for fans of said actor. Doesn't change the fact though, Genesis is not Gackt, but the character Genesis. They didn't insert Gackt Camui into Crisis Core. He's an actor playing a role. There would still be a character called Genesis regardless if Gackt took the role or not.

And how can two inferior SOLDIERs who were meant to showcase Sephiroth's genial side take away from his role as the strongest SOLDIER and terror of the planet? None of them even go there in terms of the plot. They're his companions and friends. If they were going to try to show a more human, approachable Sephiroth, they couldn't have him stay the cold, aloof warrior he was in FFVII. For him not to have co-workers or friends would be hard to believe.

Sephiroth's breakdown was for the same exact reason he had it in FFVII. Except now it makes sense, seeing as how he lost what semblance of friendship he had while finding out he was a monster in the first place. Th fact his other friends degenerated and died would make it worst because he'd be left with nothing.

 

[Tetsujin]

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=279.msg9794#msg9794 date=1232480820]
Genesis's redemption was at the end of Crisis Core when Zack saved him and let him regain his pride as a SOLDIER.

And you could be right, just like movies cast certain actors for fans of said actor. Doesn't change the fact though, Genesis is not Gackt, but the character Genesis. They didn't insert Gackt Camui into Crisis Core. He's an actor playing a role. There would still be a character called Genesis regardless if Gackt took the role or not.[/quote]

You don't know that.

As far as I know, Genesis came AFTER they chose to actually have Gackt contributing something for DC.

 

[Makoeyes987]

what the fuck Tets? You just repeated my entire post after the words

"You don't know that, as far as I know, Genesis came AFTER they chose to actually have Gackt contributing something for DC."

LOL, anyways, the point I'm making is, Genesis is still Genesis in FFVII. Yeah, they put him as "G" in DC first, but they already said that "G" was going to play an important role in the future of the Compilation and they merely had G serve as a "prelude" to his character. That shows they had some concept of Genesis already.

Meaning they had a character in mind. Gackt served merely as visual inspiration, not as the base of his entire character. They didn't make Gackt in FFVII, and you know that.

 

[Andalegogo]

So how is Angeal still considered "inferior" to Sephiroth when it's discovered that he is actually a perfect product of the Jenova Project as well?

And then is Genesis still to be considered as inferior after his degradation has been healed?

 

[Tetsujin]

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=279.msg9804#msg9804 date=1232482060]
what the fuck Tets? You just repeated my entire post after the words

"You don't know that, as far as I know, Genesis came AFTER they chose to actually have Gackt contributing something for DC."

LOL, anyways, the point I'm making is, Genesis is still Genesis in FFVII. Yeah, they put him as "G" in DC first, but they already said that "G" was going to play an important role in the future of the Compilation and they merely had G serve as a "prelude" to his character. That shows they had some concept of Genesis already.

Meaning they had a character in mind. Gackt served merely as visual inspiration, not as the base of his entire character. They didn't make Gackt in FFVII, and you know that.
[/quote]

They actually created the character for him and it's very obvious imo.

 

[Countess Ariadne]

[quote author=Makoeyes987 link=topic=279.msg9794#msg9794 date=1232480820]
And you could be right, just like movies cast certain actors for fans of said actor. Doesn't change the fact though, Genesis is not Gackt, but the character Genesis. They didn't insert Gackt Camui into Crisis Core. He's an actor playing a role. There would still be a character called Genesis regardless if Gackt took the role or not.[/quote]

See, I just kind of wonder about that. Gackt has been saying Square has been using him as the basis for a lot of their character designs for years. That, combined with Genesis's complete lack of a personality, makes me wonder...

And how can two inferior SOLDIERs who were meant to showcase Sephiroth's genial side take away from his role as the strongest SOLDIER and terror of the planet? None of them even go there in terms of the plot. They're his companions and friends. If they were going to try to show a more human, approachable Sephiroth, they couldn't have him stay the cold, aloof warrior he was in FFVII. For him not to have co-workers or friends would be hard to believe.

Sephiroth's breakdown was for the same exact reason he had it in FFVII. Except now it makes sense, seeing as how he lost what semblance of friendship he had while finding out he was a monster in the first place. Th fact his other friends degenerated and died would make it worst because he'd be left with nothing.

I wasn't saying Sephiroth was a complete loner during his time with Shinra. Having friends is quite understandable. (Before the Compilation, I thought Zack and Sephiroth were closer than it let on.) I meant being the only one with Jenova cells--The only monster. I know this isn't really a good reason/way to describe this, but being the only one seems to make going psycho and proclaiming you're the destined one to rule the world more legitimate. Do you get what I mean?

 

[Tetsujin]

[quote author=Countess Ariadne link=topic=279.msg9813#msg9813 date=1232483172]

See, I just kind of wonder about that. Gackt has been saying Square has been using him as the basis for a lot of their character designs for years.
[/quote]

As far as I know, Gackt only called Squall "Gackt 2" jokingly once (?) but it's not him saying that he was the basis for all those characters, it's weird fans doing that all the time (even with Tidus, even though I'd agree he's totally Meg Ryan).

 

[Makoeyes987]

@Tetujin

I'm not saying they didn't create the role and appearance for him in DC, but they already had the idea of having an outside actor before they chose Gackt. And they already wanted him to lend his voice for one of the characters they were thinking of for another Compilation title. In the end though, they decided to make that character "G" who had his appearance in DC. If Gackt declined, they'd have simply chosen someone else. But they still would've made whoever it was, the character they had in mind.


@Andalegogo

He's the perfect Project G specimen, but Project G is inferior to Project S. All G-Type SOLDIERs degrade and eventually turn into monsters. Sephiroth does not.

See, I just kind of wonder about that. Gackt has been saying Square has been using him as the basis for a lot of their character designs for years. That, combined with Genesis's complete lack of a personality, makes me wonder...

Gackt likes to talk but Nomura specifically has stated Squall's design was inspired by River Phoenix, not Gackt. And really, Genesis doesn't have a complete lack of personality. If that were the case, he'd have no back story or effect on the story at all. You can argue it wasn't fleshed out the best way, but that's not having no personality, that's just bad exposition.

I wasn't saying Sephiroth was a complete loner during his time with Shinra. Having friends is quite understandable. (Before the Compilation, I thought Zack and Sephiroth were closer than it let on.) I meant being the only one with Jenova cells--The only monster. I know this isn't really a good reason/way to describe this, but being the only one seems to make going psycho and proclaiming you're the destined one to rule the world more legitimate. Do you get what I mean?

Sephiroth is the only true "son" of Jenova. Genesis and Angeal don't have Jenova in their DNA like him. Their entire flaw is the fact they don't have full integration of Jenova's genetic makeup in their cell structure, thus they degrade into monsters. Angeal only has the unique cell structure passed on from Gillian who had Jenova cells injected into her, and Genesis was created merely from her ovum.

Sephiroth is the only "perfect monster" and that is why he not only feels he's a "special existence" but it in turn leads to him going mad with him thinking he's the only true Ancient of them all.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Genesis was a forced addition.
Yes, he is a different character and the character isn't named Gackt, but you can't really argue that the role wasn't made into what it is because of Gackt. This happens in movies all the time. They may write a character over again just because of the big star, even at the cost of the story if it will guarantee them money. And Gackt has quite the fanbase. You can't possibly deny that this was a major influencing factor.

Personally, I found Genesis to be quite flat. You can't label bad exposition/lack of characterization "mystery" and "craziness" and get away with it. It's quite obvious in this case. I ask myself what CC would have lost without Genesis...and find myself saying "not much". SE tried to kind of integrate him into the story, and of course they are going to say they didn't just make the character for Gackt, but actions speak louder than words.

Genesis did not offer much to Crisis Core and was there to guarantee them another door from which money could come in. I think that is obvious now.

His motivations, his dialogue, his backstory (whatever we have), it's all so generic and bland, as if it's plucked from "angsty/obsessive and misunderstood villains 101".

I don't expect Joker in TDK here, but I don't want to excuse this character's poor development because it's a videogame. This is the kind of attitude that perpetuates the idea that video games can't be quality entertainment, or offer some solid characters/stories.

Meh whatever. Angael was pretty generic too, but nowhere near as bad as Genesis. Clearly they weren't made to take center stage, but I don't feel they adequately did what they were supposed to either.

Of course I can rationalize their behavior and see what's going on and why, but that doesn't mean it's not poorly done.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Then Christian Bale's a forced addition in Batman.

Unless you can conclusively prove that Gackt ended up influencing and changing what Genesis would've become, aside from his appearance, you're kinda speaking from no base.

I wonder if you even played or paid attention to the entire plot of Crisis Core, if you say Genesis didn't offer much to it, given how his character was instrumental and the "core" to several of the crises in FFVII. While his words may have been few, his actions and interactions were very instrumental and noteworthy.

Your summation of his relevance is only about 1/3 of the story and while you can argue his dialogue didn't do enough to belie his importance, saying he added nothing to Crisis Core is quite absurd given how most of the plot, conflict, and characterization of the others stems from his actions and words.

Again, Genesis would've existed whether he had Gackt's face or not. Blaming Gackt is just scapegoating and an excuse because somehow you don't like that a J-Rock star got a chance to lend his voice talents for Crisis Core and got to act in a cutscene for DC.